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This time the pointlessness of the attack was particularly egregious, but it was pretty universally lauded in the media (outside of some minor twitter circles). This strengthened my resolve to move away next year (despite a significant economic cost) because I can't keep being here (for this and for other cultural/personal reasons). This country has no future and I can't help it nor Palestine.
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Aug 10, 2022 06:47
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By popular demand posted:I feel much the same and if my financial and mental condition would have allowed it I'd move. France. I don't speak French but other than that it seemed the most suitable, so I'll just take the plunge and hope I can figure it out. I hear they're rude enough that I won't have much of a culture shock.
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Aug 10, 2022 15:31
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You don't need slurs when "arab" is already a slur in Israeli society. It's not uncommon to hear something like "what are you, an Arab?" when someone does something poorly or in a simple/stupid way. I'm voting today, maybe for the last time for a while (moving next year). Still can't decide between Hadash-Taal (Arab party) and Meretz (leftmost zionist party) Hadash is pro-Russian and Taal is anti-LGBT, and Meretz are milquetoast ineffectual zionists. They're both shite I might innie-minnie it.
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Nov 1, 2022 07:09
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I don't have much to add but I just wanted to say that as a non-zionist Israeli I'm enjoying this discussion. It's rare that these kinds of discussion don't slide too much into vitriol. As for the whole "good 19th century zionists" - it's a bit moot I think because as people said, I think people on the ground quickly realised the situation. It feels pointless to judge a bunch of people theorising from Switzerland one way or anything. I do believe many of the people on the ground thought there will be a diplomatic solution though, and I don't blame anyone from running away from Europe.
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Jan 30, 2023 22:03
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eSports Chaebol posted:The galaxy brain take: the I/P issue is fake because there are only Khazars and Sea People so it’s nobody’s rightful land https://youtu.be/-evIyrrjTTY Land ownership is bullshit but at the same time please don't disown people of their land.
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Feb 10, 2023 19:52
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Also https://twitter.com/Nadav_Eyal/status/1640110174554783745?s=20
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Mar 26, 2023 23:26
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I think there's a non-zero chance that it will be "paused" for the moment. Probably in the hopes of repackaging and reintroducing it once things have calmed down. Absolute zero chance of Netanyahu stepping down.
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Mar 26, 2023 23:47
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Copying my post over from GBS (sorry) since I love spreading cheer. I left Israel for France about a month ago, partly because I was (and still am) fairly certain that "it's all downhill from here". Be it this dictatorship nonsense, the Jewish religious tensions, and last but not least the Palestinian conflict - I really see absolutely no way it will get better. Even if the good guys win this particular battle, demographics will win the war. It is clear where the wind is blowing, and even if there are sudden breezes the other way, you gotta pay attention to that hurricane coming your way. That said, it does warm my heart to see everyone fighting and scoring small victories. And hey, maybe I'm wrong! I'm not
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Mar 28, 2023 07:39
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Actually there was an interesting bit with the flag in these rounds of protests. Overusing the flag was definitely seen as a right-wing nationalistic thing, and because of that the protesters attempted to "reclaim" it and now the anti government flags are filled with Israeli flags. This is probably a response to the right saying: - The protests aren't about the judiciary, it's just left vs right again. - Furthermore, the left is unpatriotic. - There were Palestinian flags at some protests. The protesters are leftist, traitors, fifth columnists etc. etc. I think it's a pretty weaksauce approach to come and try to out-patriot the right, because I'm sure that the average protester is less chauvinistic on average so who are you fooling. Also it's exclusionary and generally gross. But then again I'm probably just in an anti-nationalistic bubble.
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Apr 2, 2023 10:27
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Going back to the birthright stuff, I went to birthright when I was in the IDF which is a very coveted thing. A week off duty just loving around (often literally) with a bunch of Americans. I hated it. I would argue with all the other Israelis, the guides and the Americans all the time, trying to challenge the various progaganda they were feeding them. Also, the Americans were all like 18 from like Penn State and only cared about drinking and I was 22, they felt like toddlers to me even at the time. Eventually one of the guides took me aside to ask if I was forced to be here, because it seemed like I was just angry all the time 🤷♂️
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Apr 7, 2023 16:31
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Those are (almost?) verbatim current Israeli basic law. I imagine they just want to codify it onto a constitution?
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Jul 25, 2023 14:23
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I saw 120 wounded in Haaretz. Really unclear what the gently caress is going on but clearly the biggest clusterfuck since the 1973 war. Looks like it's gonna take a while to get a clear picture since there are towns with Hamas militants the IDF hasn't even reached yet. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 08:17
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20 confirmed dead and 545 wounded, and this number is likely to rise since there are at least four Israeli towns with Hamas militants roaming freely, plus who knows how many slipped through. As per Haaretz. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Oct 7, 2023 |
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Oct 7, 2023 10:32
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Nucleic Acids posted:Anyone who made the choice to move to a settlement is not a civilian. This isn't the West Bank. People's whose grandparents or great grandparents moved to Israel deserve to be shot? I can understand the anger about people being mad about war crimes only on one side but you don't have to go as far as to imply it's okay to murder children cuz they're in the wrong place.
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Oct 7, 2023 16:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Today that's objectively true - Gaza is going to be a much worse place tomorrow because of the attacks today. It's easy to say "more people die in car accidents than terror attacks", but terror attacks have many side effects. From the fear of leaving your house to the fear of cowering from a gunman that never leaves your head (from experience), these are quantifiable things that aren't in the death toll. True in both sides in this case. Obviously, policians love an issue they can shoot at. I think I'm going to stop reading this thread and social media in general. I know this isn't very D&D of me but I just can't deal with reading all of this cooly while being worried about most of my family which lives in Israel or my many friends there. Horror stories I'm reading about won't leave my head. You guys knock yourselves out though
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Oct 7, 2023 21:52
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I've regained my composure and wandered back into the thread. Israel claims that atm there are 123 dead soldiers and 41 dead policemen on their side and the total death count is around 1000. That's a little over 80% civilians. Hamas militants went into 12 towns and by most accounts just went house to house shooting indiscriminately and sometimes putting houses on fire. I don't see how something like that can be 'unintentional', it had to have come from above. If I had to guess what their goals were, it's to create an atmosphere of fear that might cause Israel to be more belligerent over the next few years but eventually be more amenable to some sort of deal, when the bloodlust has sated? Otherwise this doesn't make sense to me. Edit: Being less clear cut. Edit 2: Israel put the policemen death count at 41. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 09:31
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Majorian posted:Genuinely asking, because I want to have an accurate understanding of the situation: which accounts are those? I understand why people will look at any Israeli accounts with suspicion, but I'm not sure there is much dissension on this point (but then again I'm reading western sites). And for the latter point, Mischevious Mink-if you are correct then what do you think the plan is behind Hamas' actions? Simply lashing out because there's nothing else to do? I feel like there has to be a motive and thinking behind it all. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Oct 10, 2023 |
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Oct 10, 2023 09:52
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Mischievous Mink posted:There's no if, it's Israel's openly stated position. This isn't ambiguous. I don't think so. It's a fair interpretation of actual reality or even just subtext but they're not openly stating that. Why would they? Better off making themselves look good. As for "settlers" being acceptable targets. What is the difference between a settler and a citizen? Does Hamas consider every civilian in Israel a settler? The towns that were attacked are within 1947 Israel lines, not even 1967. Most of them created in the 40s or 50s. So they're not akin to somewhere like the West Bank or even Hasharon. They're less of a settlement than Tel-Aviv. When you consider all of Israel as occupied then I can understand this definition but I still think a distinction between "normal" Israeli towns and ones built in the West Bank or neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem is at least useful.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:08
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Recoome posted:I might have been really out of it but I really thought that there wasn’t Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip, rather they were in the West Bank. Not sure how this comment tracks. There aren't any Israelis in Gaza since 2009, with the disengagement plan. I don't about distributing M16s but there are a lot of civilians with gun licenses in the West Bank which I assume is what they're referring to. The towns around Gaza are fairly small, the biggest having 30k people. Hence the small police forces.
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Oct 10, 2023 10:18
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mannerup posted:the fact that Israel is directly stating that Egyptian citizens operating those vehicles are legitimate targets is a direct violation of the 1979 agreement They didn't actually say that, the words were that if the trucks were to go in they would "react appropriately" which is legalese for we will bomb the poo poo out of them, but here's some plausible deniability.
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Oct 10, 2023 14:05
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Sir Fontlebottom posted:Reading here and elsewhere and trying to process all the events of the last several days. Personally I have long felt that Israel should just pack up and leave the area completely as they are obviously not welcome and it wasn't their land to begin with. It made perfect sense to me that Palestinians would militarily oppose the occupation of land that belongs to them. But I don't understand how what happened this weekend advances that objective. At all. Leave and go where?
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Oct 10, 2023 20:53
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Majorian posted:Those arrivals would be predominantly white and Europeanized. We're not talking about refugees from Libya. You do know about half of Israeli Jews are from the Middle East and North Africa, right? They were expelled from their countries and don't hold another citizenship (nor do the majority of Ashkenazi Israeli Jews, despite being from Europe).
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Oct 10, 2023 22:12
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I haven't seen this discussed and I was wondering what people think. I talked to a friend last night and he said that in his opinion, mostly based on the WSJ, Hamas' plan was to almost immediately involve a Hezbollah invasion with Iranian support and this plan was halted by the show of deterrence by the US. Now, I think that the show of deterrence by the US is obviously meant to scare off Iran (and Hezbollah) but I don't know whether I fully buy into the fact that this was planned but only thwarted by it. Though, even without Iran involved, a two-pronged attack by Hezbollah in addition to Hamas would have been catastrophic for Israel and makes more sense then simply Hamas lashing out on their own to inevitably be quickly pushed back and then endure massive attacks in Gaza.
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Oct 11, 2023 13:17
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I think he means that Hamas doesn't understand that Israel views it this way. Which I highly doubt - they are literally right there since always and it's ridiculous to suggest they'll be following Israel less closely than some American journalists. I'm sure they know the Israelis well enough.
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Oct 12, 2023 07:01
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Just some anecdotal evidence from talking to friends in Israel, and looking at Facebook (only social network I'm on, I'm old) and some news sites. This is some super 9/11 vibes. Everyone is super patriotic and militaristic in a way I haven't seen even in the militaristic Israel and absolutely raging. Some people I've talked to who are nominally left-wing were all for a massive attack and didn't seem to care about any casualties (on either side) with one person even going as far as saying we should just kill them all (or drive them away). People who have always been against this sort of stuff, quite jarring. There's massive backlash against pro-Palestine protests etc in universities, which was always a thing but never this vehemently and with such wide support. The few people I talked to who did not seem to lose their poo poo were resigned that this train ain't stopping for anything.
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Oct 13, 2023 23:17
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Comstar posted:Someone has to pick up the garbage. Clean the rooms. Fix the minor maintenance issues that occur. And getting the There are no Palestinian workers on IDF bases, and in most bases the soldiers do all the work anyway. The only Arab soldiers are Bedouin and Druze, which are afforded the rank of honorary Jew. I don't know exactly what or how they got information but I doubt it's spies. At the very least not intentional ones.
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Oct 14, 2023 08:53
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I don't think it's a major thing, but while the ultra orthodox parties aren't involved with politics, the "regular" orthodox ultra-right-wing party is. They also push the settlements in the West Bank hard. They were the ones that caused a lot of things that made the situation in the West Bank to flare up (which they wanted, so they could crack down on Palestinians there harder in favour of the settlers). They are also led by two people who have zero military experience, one of which is a nazi psychopath who was rejected from the IDF because he was a member of a terrorist organisation. Personally, I think you can say it was a factor but I'm not really sure how major it was. Time will tell.
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Oct 15, 2023 21:44
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Yeah. It also seems like troops on either side of the northern border are very much in a "shoot anything that moves" state which is a great recipe for escalation unless cool heads are abound.
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Oct 16, 2023 08:54
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They are there to scare off Iran or maybe Hezbollah. Though I can't imagine US troops on the ground against Hezbollah unless the situation is super dire. Maaaaaybe some air support, but that's one area Israel isn't lacking in.
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Oct 16, 2023 17:04
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Morton Salt Grrl posted:I get that people don't trust the IDF, but the alternative source is literally Hamas. You might remember them as the group that killed 1,000 Israeli civilians a couple of weeks ago - they may not be trustworthy sources of information! And Israel is? Also just splitting hairs but even Israel isn't claiming Hamas did it, but Islamic Jihad.
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Oct 18, 2023 10:09
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Main Paineframe posted:The thing is that Israel bombards Gaza with a wave of airstrikes every couple of years, so it's not really all that effective at convincing the voters that the government is Doing Something about Hamas. If there's domestic political pressure to show a serious effort against Hamas, though, Israel needs to send in the ground troops. This, pretty much. At the end of the day any foreign/war policy the Israeli government has is just a reflection of short sighted domestic policies. Which is why, even if it makes no tactical and strategic sense, they will send troops into Gaza to show that This Time It's Different. They can post pictures of dead Hamas militants and maybe some alive hostages. Then after a while enough Israeli soldiers will die and the bloodlust will die down a bit so they can back out, maybe carving out some "security zone", with enough public support. With any luck this will last enougg time that people will forget who was in charge when this poo poo happened and won't kick them out of office. (imo)
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Oct 19, 2023 22:20
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I said come in! posted:I think we can at least agree that the Israeli government, and its military, are extremely evil and need to be dismantled entirely. From everything i've seen online, even their own people hate both the IDF, and their government. If you think the Israeli government/army is "evil", I don't know how you'd describe them if they acted like the Israeli public currently (mostly) wants. The government is a little bit restrained by international opinion, the US and just logic. The populace is not.
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Oct 21, 2023 09:32
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In other news, 14 towns in Northern Israel were evacuated after various sporadic exchanges across the Lebanese borders with Hezbollah and other groups. This brings the total of evacuated Israeli citizens to about 200,000. Meanwhile, the Gazan Health Ministry says there are 1.4 million refugees inside the strip. Going back to the Lebanon thing, I really don't see why Israel would want a war on that front as well. Seems mental. Again, only thing I can think of is that they feel like they have a blank cheque from the population that they will not have again soon. But it's such a huge and maybe unnecessary risk that it baffles the mind.
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Oct 22, 2023 13:45
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I said come in! posted:What might happen when Israel has to explain to their people that they cannot stop Hamas? Cause we only need to look at the massive failure of the U.S. and our war on terror to know exactly where this is going to go. Luckily you can just say you did defeat them. Mission accomplished! By the time people figure out they're still active you blame your political rivals or fifth columnists. We would have defeated Hamas if it weren't for these pesky _____!
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Oct 22, 2023 20:26
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Shageletic posted:And guess what? They have segregated loving schools. They reinvented American segregation. Here's a paper about it. I don't think many people here care about this but just to clear up some stuff about the education system. The Israeli school system is completely split up into four. Secular, orthodox, ultra orthodox and Arab. In the Arab one classes are taught in Arabic and the rest is in Hebrew. A parent can choose which one their child will go to, though obviously for logistical reasons and social reasons an Arab child will likely go to an Arab school. So the segregation isn't enforced by law as much as it is discrimination. Even in mixed towns like Haifa having Arab students in secular schools is rare. I assume it is difficult language-wise, and that students can face racism. There are a few mixed schools that teach in both languages but they are rare. As far as the quality of schooling, there is definite discrimination. Though the Christian Arab schools, in contrast to the Muslim ones, are often considered the best in the country (at least as far as grades and such are concerned). I don't really know it too well. In universities everything is mixed but people mostly stick to their cliques, speaking their native language. My university was like 20-25% Arabs but in most courses you could see that people usually stuck to the own group. There are groups that are more integrated into Israeli society like the Druze, Bedouin and the ex South Lebanon folk. I think this separation is one of the "original sins" of Israel (it also effects splits inside Jewish society). It is not segregation by law, but segregation by societal pressure, discrimination and momentum.
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Oct 25, 2023 08:11
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Shageletic posted:Thanks for the added information. Everyone should care about this. Yes. Most of the Bedouin live in the Negev and nowadays most of them live in urban (recognised) cities and towns (around 60% from figures I could find) . The unrecognised ones are usually very small "villages", and not always occupied year round. This I think is kind of a separate problem than the general Palestinian one, but more of a problem thst also exists in other parts of the world where modern governments have hard time dealing with nomadic/seminomadic people and try to force them to settle in "official" places.
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Oct 25, 2023 15:14
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Yeah, the fact that Ethiopian Jews don't really have a place in Israel makes the argument for Israel existing pretty thin to me, since nonwhite/non-Mediterranean/non-european Jews should have the same rights to the holy land as everyone else That's bullshit. Less than 50% of Israeli Jews are of European descent.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:36
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Shageletic posted:White supremacy isn't a philosophy based on facts and actual genealogies. It's based on adhering to a set of created cultural signifiers to create a inferior class below them. You don't have to be white to be a racist or a supermacist. It's just a different thing and trying to fit all problems into America shaped holes is reductive. There is a huge Jewish supremacy problem in Israel, I'll agree with that. But just because people want to display westernism doesn't make it white supremacy.
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Oct 25, 2023 18:46
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I said come in! posted:What is going on with the 200,000 Israelis in the north that were evacuated? That has got to put Israel in a really tough spot if this conflict goes in for a long time. There is a further 200k evacuated from around Gaza. You should also consider the fact that most schools are still closed, making lots of parents have to take off work - many of them now as single parents because their spouse got called up. Then you have all the businesses that closed in the evacuated areas whcih could have had workers from outside of it, plus Covid style lack of work in things like weddings, sports, restaurants etc all over the country. So probably anywhere between 500k and like 1.5m people not working (out of 9m). Precarious situation for Israel, economically, and they were already doing pretty bad beforehand. I have a friend who works at a tech company in Israel and since most of his employees are young (so either called up or have young children) maybe around 30% are actually working. He also says that the people working are totally unproductive, but I assume people will get used to this new situation.
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Oct 26, 2023 07:44
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest. Relative to the population size, Oct 7th was 20 9/11s and it seems the réponse in Israel is proportional. The media and populace becoming very jingoistic and hawkish, repression of any dissenting thoughts, and lots of lots of quick decisions being made with support across the board that will have repercussions for decades.
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Oct 26, 2023 21:24
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