Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Is there a definition of a Palestinian Right of Return that would lead to Israel no longer existing? Because that seems to be the point in contention - whether or not BDS seeks to end the Israeli state.

# ¿ Dec 20, 2015 17:17

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 06:04

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

Is it ever physically painful being so wrong? Please explain to us how you can read the following and transform it into "being anti-Israel in any way means anti-semitic, just like Osama Bin Laden".

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm

Hardcore anti-Zionists will not just shut up about how all criticism of Israel is supposedly being called anti-Zionists. Which is amusing because it's just so transparent an attempt to ward off criticisms of how their rhetoric can sometimes veer into outright antisemitism, like Tea Partiers ranting about how blacks are always playing "the race card". Your total inability to acknowledge the argument Wistrich is making is a case in point. If you can delude yourself into thinking that all anti-Zionism will be unfairly be smeared as antisemitism then you can just reject any accusation of self-described anti-Zionists veering into antisemitism.

You quoted a passage that asserts that opposition to Zionism does not require anti-semitism, and then immediately connected opposition to Zionism to anti-semitism. Do you, personally, think that it is possible to oppose Zionism without being an anti-semite? As a similar - but separate - question do you think that it is possible to oppose the policies and/or actions of the Israeli government without being an anti-semite?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2015 04:11

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

I'd be interested in hearing why you think that the idea of the Roma people being as persecuted and scapegoated as the Jewish people is "ludicrously incorrect."

# ¿ Feb 23, 2016 15:25

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

I'm afraid I have some bad news.

Since you're back, do you want to elaborate on your statements about the Roma? You never did address my question.

The Insect Court posted:

I agree that we should not attempt to erase the killings by the Nazis of disabled people or gypsies (or Slovenes or Freemasons or homosexuals or Spanish Republicans) from history.

Ludicrously incorrect.

captainblastum posted:

I'd be interested in hearing why you think that the idea of the Roma people being as persecuted and scapegoated as the Jewish people is "ludicrously incorrect."

# ¿ Mar 23, 2016 16:42

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

The original NYT article had a few good, albeit mild examples: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/us/university-of-california-adopts-statement-condemning-anti-semitism.html

And from across the pond:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-members-anti-semitic-banned-for-life-john-mcdonnell-a6951371.html

Are you ever going to address the questions that people have asked you repeatedly?

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 15:57

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

I'm sorry, is this a 'antisemitism has nothing whatsoever to do with Israel, how could anyone think that?' post? Or just a meltdown?

You'll have to clarify, it's hard to distinguish between all the bad faith non sequiturs made to avoid having to address legitimate issues ands important news stories that I mention.

This is the question that I'd like to hear an answer for:

The Insect Court posted:

I agree that we should not attempt to erase the killings by the Nazis of disabled people or gypsies (or Slovenes or Freemasons or homosexuals or Spanish Republicans) from history.

Ludicrously incorrect.

captainblastum posted:

I'd be interested in hearing why you think that the idea of the Roma people being as persecuted and scapegoated as the Jewish people is "ludicrously incorrect."

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 21:34

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

My mistake, although Puar's presentation was delivered at Vassar.

I don't think I have to point out the fatuousness of suggesting that anything short of explicitly claiming that Jews as a group steal the organs of non-Jews can't be antisemitic. It's just as ridiculous as implying that the Willie Horton ad wasn't racist, because it didn't claim that all black men want to rape all white women.

Not all antizionism is antisemitic, but some is, and there are some antisemites who attempt to portray themselves as being merely antizionist. You, for example. At least, I assume you're not comfortable with self-identifying as an antisemite.

captainblastum posted:

Are you ever going to address the questions that people have asked you repeatedly?

Also - since you're going to flat out call Dabir an anti-semite, could you explain how you reached that conclusion as well?

# ¿ Apr 11, 2016 21:42

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

The Insect Court posted:

This strikes me as a rather unconcerned response. But maybe it was intended as one. Is that how you would characterize your reaction to Abbas's remarks? Do we at least agree with the NYT that he was "echoing anti-Semitic claims"?

"Seemingly" a hoax is ahead at this point because the "Rabbi Mlma" who supposed issued the call does, rather obviously, not exist. And no, "some settler may have once done a lovely thing that can be rhetorically be connected to this" is not an adequate defense any more than "I'm sure that at least some immigrants have committed rape or murder " is to Trump's line about Mexican immigrants being rapists and murderers.

The part I've bolded is absolutely correct, and it also needs to be applied to the Palestinian people and the collective punishment that they endure solely because of their ethnicity.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2016 19:08

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Kim Jong Il posted:

Your argument is a call for collective punishment, and analogous to saying that violence is okay against Palestinians for supporting Hamas. The idea that we're going to get peace as a result of unilateral hostility is loving stupid regardless of whether it's Bennett or Barghouti saying it.

This part strikes me as particularly wrong. Can you elaborate on your thoughts here? Can you explain what collective punishment is, why it's wrong (if you think that it is), and how individuals choosing to boycott, divest, or sanction Israel for the actions of its elected government constitutes collective punishment?

E: Also how was Donald J Trump not already taken as a username after all of these years.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2018 15:32

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Groovelord Neato posted:

brings to mind rachel "saint pancake" corrie.

That's hosed up dude. Real heartless.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2018 02:52

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Groovelord Neato posted:

hahahah i got loving reported and probated for that? jfc.

i was comparing them saying the nurse was "no angel" to all the right wing fucks (a particular favorite over at little green footballs) calling rachel corrie "saint pancake" after she got crushed trying to protect a home from an israeli bulldozer.

If you got reported it wasn't by me.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2018 16:32

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Kim Jong Il posted:

calling out "Zios", claiming that Jews unduly influence world affairs, and claiming that Jews are Khazars and hence have no historical ties to the Middle East. We've seen groups like JVP waffle on calling out outright anti-Semites like Gilad Atzmon. We've seen Tamika Mallory and Shaun King celebrate Louis Farrakhan. Furthermore, BDS is disproportionate, and it discriminates on the basis of national origin.

Can you provide any examples of these particular things, done in the name of the BDS movement or by individual persons who represent BDS in some way?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2018 00:39

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Kim Jong Il posted:

It's the most popular position internationally, in American Jewry, and with American Zionists.

I can't personally verify that everyone who does is, but I doubt they're doing that because they love Israel. The "Zio" stuff is pretty common, read the comments on Mondoweiss and Electronic Intifada for example, or search on Twitter for Israel + Zios. Electronic Intifada has defended using the term.

Khazars pop up occasionally, including from Mahmoud Abbas, who is not a BDS supporter, but said multiple times over the past year that Jews have no ties to the Middle East. And certainly there have been many attempts on the Zionist side to minimalize Palestinian historical complaints, which I also condemn.

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/oxford-university-labour-club-co-chair-alex-chalmers-resigns-amid-anti-semitism-row-a6878826.html

https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/251691/is-the-bds-movement-failing-depends-on-your-definition-of-success

With JVP and Atzmon, I misremembered, it's actually Alison Weir is the anti-Semite they walked back from condemning, not Atzmon.

Speaking of Mondoweiss, I've posted before about how he's a loving lunatic who loves claiming that Jews have disproportionate influence.

Tamika Mallory and Shaun King are both loud BDS supporters. Mallory is unequivocally anti-Semitic, accusing her critics of being "enemies of Jesus". King is not an anti-Semite, and honestly his defenses of Farrakhan come off as more trolling than anything, but the position of both is roughly that Farrakhan and the NOI do good work in the black community and have to be judged proportionately, which is, well, more than a little inconsistent.

You're making specific and serious accusations about the BDS movement, and you should back that up with actual evidence, not comment sections.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2018 01:31

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 06:04

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Miftan posted:

The IDF doesn't really do assassinations in person. It's mostly bombs, airstrikes, or poison, depending on if you're happy to attribute certain things to mossad and shin bet. I've never heard of a mission deep into enemy territory for a kidnapping either. It's usually assassinations. Probably likely that this is an intel job that was botched. It happens a shocking amount.

It seems to me that it's more likely that botched intel jobs happen a lot less than you think, and assassinations not coincidentally happen a lot more than you think.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2018 16:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine