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computer parts posted:It's pretty simple logic really. Guy loves his wife, guy gets a vision about his wife dying (and his previous one about his mom dying came true), guy learns that the Sith have the ability to save people from dying, guy finds out his boss is going to kill the only Sith left in the galaxy. Yes, that well known law where you can't kill a guy who's actively trying to murder you with lightning.
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Dec 14, 2015 17:55
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sassassin posted:Lightning is a valid form of self-defence as defined by the galactic senate. A senate controlled by Palpatine! He's too dangerous to be put on trial! He controls the law itself!
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Dec 14, 2015 18:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:And yet, this 'natural' behavior doesn't happen in the UK. Awww it's cute that SMG implies that he knows what happens in the U.K. Spoilers, we applauded at the end of the film and cheered at the beginning, because we were happy the film was good and hype for Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2015 03:19
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StoneOfShame posted:Some thoughts: I don't think he has to be, I think it can simply be the Jedi misinterpreting balance to the force as absence of the Sith. The Sith are absent, they're gone, Kylo is trying to be one with no idea of what that truly is, but that doesn't mean the Dark side is absent, in the same way that the Empire being absent doesn't mean that evil is gone. Also I think you're dead on the money with Rey being a Skywalker and also that she'll have to kill Ren, providing a neat contrast to idea of non-violence in the OT. Also Jesus Christ go see this movie it's amazing. Edit: I have a terrible cold and it might just be the lack of sleep with that, but when Rey came back and saw Leia, I was pretty close to tears. What really struck it home was that they played Han Solo and the Princess at that very moment and a little part of my brain was aware that I will never hear that piece of music in cinema again. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Dec 18, 2015 |
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Dec 18, 2015 03:29
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Just to be clear, the First Order is a insurgency movement that enacts terrorist attacks on the democratic Regime (The New Republic) whilst sitting on the border of another Regime (The Empire) that was defeated previously but is still a major regional power. Due to war weariness the Democratic power does not want to intervene against the first order and uses proxies to do so instead (The Resistance), whilst The Empire follows a similar strategy, ultimately letting a situation that could have been rectified get completely out of hand and resulting in major attacks on the democratic regime. Usually I'm not one for reading into subtext too deeply, but just as the OT was informed by Vietnam I really do think that this is informed by Syria and Post Occupation Iraq.
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Dec 18, 2015 21:26
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I love how Cloud City is smooth and clean on the outside but with a dark core and that's reflected in Lando's character as well. What I also think is cool is that when Lando face turns it's almost as if the city itself does as well by saving Luke when he throws himself to his doom.
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Jan 19, 2016 17:09
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Serf posted:Rey eating her food outside the foot of a downed AT-AT. My favourite shot of the entire movie. They crammed a volume of character into a shot with no dialogue and that lasted like 5 seconds.
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Jan 19, 2016 18:02
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RBA Starblade posted:There's a lot there. You could say that it's...dense? No, it's specifically not dense.  But it still speaks absolute volumes about Rey's character and also does a tonne to create a comparison between her and Luke.
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Jan 19, 2016 18:41
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RBA Starblade posted:The joke was it's dense in what it gets across as opposed to whatever was crammed in it. Then we're in complete agreement. It's /really/ hard to tell if people are joking in this thread.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:15
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This is amazing, we've got a new SMG but he agrees with my opinions. Tezzor did you grow up on Earth 2? Is your real name UltraMechaGodzilla?
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Jan 19, 2016 19:52
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Lt. Danger posted:No, SMG understands what he is talking about. ...do you read his posts? According to SMG the humans of Naboo somehow drove the Gungans off the best real estate on the planet, despite the fact the Gungans have a bigger army and are an amphibious species. And don't get me started on the Marx.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:22
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Beeez posted:When did any of the foot soldiers in the originals or TFA demonstrate any personality at all? I mean, the guys coordinating the attacks and the main characters do, and the various pilots do, but I can't think of any ground troops that have much personality. Best I can think of is that Rebel commando in Return of the Jedi who dressed up as a Stormtrooper off-screen when we see he's been captured. You're not meant to care about the rebel foot soldiers that die on Hoth, they're left behind the same way they leave the ice planet behind. The rebels on Endor are similarly irrelevant because the Ewoks win the battle and they do show volumes of personality. TFA is harder, but you've got the traitor soldier and phasma.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:29
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Serf posted:Is it impossible to feel for people who are forced to fight in a war for someone else? Because that's where it all stems from for me. The droids and the clones weren't given a choice, and it's not like they'll get to retire when the war is over. Their lives suck, and I have sympathy for them. I think we're supposed to feel bad for them once we realize that droids and clones are still people. I don't think the movie does enough to evoke this feeling among the audience. Their deaths are frequently played for laughs which literally creates the opposite feeling. If you'd wanted to create that kind of sympathy, then non-comedic interactions between droids should probably have been displayed. Similarly among the clones if you're trying to get across that their lives suck then you should actually display that.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:46
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Serf posted:You start seeing how the lives of the clones suck as soon as they're introduced on Kamino. Tubes of fetuses, rows of little Jangos at desks, wires all stuck in their heads. You realize that's it. That's their entire lives. They live in a place where they all see the same face, they get trained to kill, then they go out into the world to die. Like I really don't get that from it. The cloning facilities are at worst comparable to a decently supplied modern military base which is by no means a terrible place to live relative to the really dogshit places on earth. I hope you can understand what I mean. I understand conceptually what is being done is wrong, but there is very little that is emotive about the shots that makes me feel that it is. Just one interaction with a Clone feeling fear before being press ganged into fighting would have done a lot to convey the message.
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Jan 19, 2016 20:57
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computer parts posted:I'll be fair and say that "Emperor" doesn't exactly imply "Sith Lord", but when I hear Supreme Leader Snoke I think of a much more Nah, he shouldn't when he's Rey's Grandfather.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:40
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character.
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Red posted:Alternate theory: Rey is an imperfect clone of Anakin, left on Jakku with the rest of the Empire's trash No, because then she'd be called Anaakin, duh. Shanty posted:Ah thanks. He did go blabbing though, so good job. I guess he's operating on R2 logic to work out exactly when to pass this information on. Looking after Luke's daughter.
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Jan 21, 2016 16:41
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Basebf555 posted:Comedic purposes? I don't even know how that's relevant. Literally all moral codes worth a drat do this.
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Jan 21, 2016 22:18
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RBA Starblade posted:I've never seen Darth Sidious and Jar-Jar Binks in the same room, come to think of it... I've never seen Darth Sidious and Obi-Wan in the same room.
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Jan 27, 2016 14:33
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homullus posted:"Hey, if I look at a painting from a culture, I can beat them in battle!" ...Or he was just lying about that to cultivate the impression that he was some tactical God, which is an effective combat tactic for both improving morale and intimidating enemies. Patton cultivated his entire "Blood and Guts" persona back in WW2 precisely for this effect because he believed it tangibly improved the performance of his men. Continuity chat. I feel like there's this giant fear that the new continuity will inhibit creativity in a way that the old continuity did. As well intentioned as it was, the old canon because so incredibly convoluted and crazy that it eventually did just start stifling creativity. However, that does not mean that a well thought out continuity, that carefully selects what goes in is not a good idea. Having an established character who has a relatively defined history can be used as a reference point for a better overall story. Traitor for example, one of the better EU novels doesn't work without a significant idea of Jacen Solo's personality which is established in prior novels within the canon. The existence of the canon as a frame of reference for readers going into Traitor means that the author is free to cut some corners in order to get to the meat of what he's trying to say, his creative process has been enhanced by the existence of the continuity. Now imagine a later novel comes out that entirely contradicts all events that have happened to Jacen prior to Traitor. You can understand that some people might be miffed because it makes the achievement of traitor now contingent on a frame of reference that is no longer shared by the fanbase as there are now two versions of this character. I do not think having continuity necessarily makes things worse and feel that often it can enhance a product. The recent success of the Marvel movies in no small part due to the creation of a film continuity would suggest that a large number of people also believe that this is true and enjoy products being linked together.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:32
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jivjov posted:And all that is well and good and all; but at the end of the day, you're still trying to tell me that I'm "doing it wrong" by enjoying reading stories that adhere to an overall continuity. Yeah they're wrong and if you haven't realised how loving batshit this thread is then I hope now is the time. You keep being you.
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Jan 29, 2016 14:44
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I will defend the Vader comic to the death purely because of this: Oh and this:      Like, holy poo poo, they actually get visual storytelling. Well that and the inherent hilarity in defenestration.
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Feb 1, 2016 18:46
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Tezzor, I actually love what you're posting, mainly because you're answering the SMG crowd back with the same kind of insanity that they've displayed. A few questions: If a droid is programmed to enjoy serving people to the point that it's painful if they don't serve people, is it morally wrong to let them serve people? You can choose to live as a slave but be more affluent than the median person. Your master has technical ownership over you, which they could enforce via physically restraining you, but you have an excellent relationship with them and this is unlikely to ever happen as you enjoy your work. Is it abhorrent to be a slave in this situation? The two questions simply ask the question of whether slavery is inherently bad or not. I argue a consequentialist approach in that I do not buy that slavery is inherently bad if it provides a better solution than the next best option. The question isn't whether slavery is the best option for Anakin, so much as to show why I just don't think something is "Inherently" anything. That's why I need to be shown what's wrong with the system on Tatooine to a much more significant extent that is displayed in the movies. Anakin's life is frankly a lot better than the lives of people I've known and even more so than about 2 billion people in the world. I am confused then, given that as to why I should care about him being a slave given they seem to be treated pretty well on Tatooine. If Lucas is trying to show the inherent horror of slavery as people claim, then more work needs to be done to emphasise why not just that it's bad, but that it's morally abhorrent in every possible way and an affront to people's humanity. When Anakin is shown to be better off than people the audience are likely to know, Lucas fails. With the droids, we have no suppositions about what kind of programming they have, beyond they have personalities. I've know my friend's horse to have a personality. Again, C-3P0 and R2 seem to be pretty happy with what they're doing. If their slavery was abhorrent presumably they'd rebel? Given the number of droids and the apparent lack of droid rebellion at any point, it seems like either the droids enjoy their slavery or simply can't even comprehend that they are slaves because they're programmed not to. I don't think a being that is not ever capable of knowing it's a slave can be a slave, in the same way that I don't think a horse that pulls a cart is comparable to a slave. Lucas does not do enough work at any point to sell the abhorrence of slavery. In our world it was a horrible thing that degraded millions of people, but we're not in our world, we're in a world where slaves appear to live lives where they're happy, safe and appear to live to middle age in good health. Hell, I find that much less appalling than the situation we see Rey in.
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Feb 2, 2016 13:15
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Lt. Danger posted:Oh my god. Oh my god.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:16
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Like it's hilarious that people willing to loving run Marxist analysis of Star Wars seem unable to understand how thought experiments work. "Slavery is wrong and bad." "I can create a thought experiment where the consequences of being a slave are logically better than any alternative. Justify why slavery is wrong and bad given consequences where absent being a slave you are worse off." Spoilers, you can win this thought experiment from a deontological justification of why slavery is inherently bad. You can even argue about why the experiment I've made is inherently broken. The prequels do not and they need to if their grand claim is that robots programmed to fight and humans programmed to fight fighting each other is morally heinous.
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Feb 2, 2016 14:34
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think you are as insightful as you think you are. You can construct scenarios in which slavery is a better option, yes. This isn't difficult. However, it's also not relevant. In this thread, if I state "I don't buy that Anakin's life as a slave is bad, because it is not shown to me within the movie," there are two responses, the first is flinchgate wherein we spend ages arguing over whether Anakin flinched or not. Assuming the conclusion to the first response is that Anakin did not flinch and the movie does not adequately show slavery being bad, then the second response arises. This is much more interesting. The second claim laid is that you should just assume slavery is bad because it's inherently wrong and that we're moral monsters for not assuming so immediately. I claim in response that there are plausible circumstances where slavery is beneficial and secondly that Anakin's life is significantly better than that of real people that we can draw a comparison to. Within universe, I think his life is significantly better than Rey's is. Given this, I think that the movie needs to do significantly more to make me buy into the idea that slavery is inherently wrong, given what I perceive to be a pretty happy child. But I've made the mistake of trying to engage with the thread instead of watching it go crazy because Tezzor is doing a reverse SMG. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 15:21
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Serf posted:This just in: slavery apparently not all that bad if it doesn't consist of 100% whippings all the time. Slavery where you lead a secure life with leisure time and a home is better than living in poverty.
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Feb 2, 2016 15:32
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Neo Rasa posted:Are you loving kidding me? I don't believe that slavery is preferable to poverty. I would rather be dying on the street than ever be a slave. This is because to be instrumentalised as the means by which someone else gains without any sort of benefit ever truly accruing to me and lacking any ability to attempt to pursue my own ambitions is an affront to my humanity and what makes us human. Even in the harshest capitalist system, I can scrimp and I can save and I can at least try to make good things happen. With slavery that's never an option to me and I never have any true choice in life. Choices and the ability to come to rationalised decisions are what define us as human and to have that taken away is an affront to our common humanity. Star Wars should express this and then I would buy it wholeheartedly. You guys just respond with incredulity to stuff instead of actual arguments. I'm out. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 15:43
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Tezzor posted:By fighting at all, the Jedi lost. Tezzor, do you believe that each prequel movie is equally bad or that there are ones that are better than the others? For all I find the love for Phantom Menace and Clone Wars insane and find a lot of the deeper meaning ascribed to them as bullshit, I think RoTS isn't nearly as bad. Specifically, I think Anakin's heel turn on Mace is pretty well done and most of the movie subsequent to that is pretty cool. It's entirely morally justifiable for Mace to kill Palpatine. He's resisted arrest, murdered three people in plain view, is incredibly likely to have control of the courts and claims to be helpless when he can loving FIRE LIGHTNING FROM HIS FINGERS. It's loving crazy to claim that he's defenseless when he has the equivalent of a loaded loving machine gun pointed directly at his opponent that he can fire the second he isn't being physically threatened. I buy Anakin being presented with a situation where he perceives Palpatine to be helpless and then has his friend appeal to his personal needs to make him heel turn. I do think it's a loving huge jump for him to just go out and murder defenceless children who look to him for trust when literally five minutes ago he was claiming that he needed to arrest people. But gently caress it, he's under the influence of the dark side at this point so who knows what the gently caress he'll actually do. From there I find it pretty tragic that a bunch of pretty cool dudes who are trying to defend democracy just get the poo poo murdered out of them because they present a threat to a Nazi dictator. Like, I think enough work has gone into the Jedi actually trying to do good things that makes me feel sad at Order 66. So I feel like, at least in the back half of the movie Lucas accomplishes at least some of what he's trying to do.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:43
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Elfgames posted:He arrests him, if the jedi way is to arrest the sith then they must logically have a way to do it. if mace is killed by sheeve's underhandedness then would anikin have fallen? i say no because i'm an optimist. mace being a jedi should be okay with this as he should not be attached to his life. Man can fire lightning from his fingers. How the gently caress do you even begin to try to arrest that?
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Feb 4, 2016 09:20
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I thought the entire point was that Jakku is meant to display that despite feeling similar to Tatooine it's literally not the same, in the same way that although Rey feels like Luke her personal journey is very different. So on Tatooine we see a fallen spaceship that's been converted into a building city. The denizens of Tatooine have made something useful out of something that was initially thought to be useless. Contrast with Jakku where the only thing that people do is scavenge out those ships and fail to turn them into anything productive. I feel like this somewhat mirrors Luke and Rey? Luke is bound to Tatooine because he's still doing something productive at his Uncle's farm, what keeps him back is a little bit of fear, but also a realisation that he has a duty to fulfil. Rey by contrast lives a subsistence lifestyle that's never going to get any better because her prison isn't one of duty but one of her own creation due to her issues around abandonment. Yet they both share the same dream of moving away to the Stars, even though their different hangups keep them home. So I dunno, maybe the desert represents their dreams and what's held within them represents the reality of what they live in?
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Feb 4, 2016 10:45
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Basebf555 posted:Like the whole slavery issue, a film shouldn't have to explain the concept of bureaucracy from the ground up to make a point about it. From real world experience most people in the audience should be able to make these connections because we all, at least in this country, have experience with the failings of bureaucracy. This is the core then of the entire set of arguments. There are probably a large number of arguments about the state of the world that the film seeks to make. What I argue is that too many of these arguments are implicit and rely on the viewer watching the film a tonne of times to see and due to their incredibly implicit nature they then come into significant dispute because people have different readings of the film. So for example, I just don't think the films show sufficiently that the Republic is a bad thing that can't be saved. At best it's value neutral in that it just lets people do poo poo and doesn't interfere (Ep 1) or value positive because it at least presents some sort of forum for concerns to be aired. So any arguments about the destruction of the Republic being positive fall flat. This also then colours my view of the Jedi's actions. Given my belief that the Republic is value neutral at worst, I view them as superior to the Trade Federation who are shown to want to starve a planet for tax money. So given a value neutral bunch of dudes and a value negative bunch of dudes going to war, you should probably defend the guys who are value neutral. So any arguments about how the Jedi fighting the war is unjust then also fall. The argument then runs that slavery on Tatooine portrays the Republic as value negative because they don't do anything to stop it, but absent any knowledge about the resource cost that would be incurred to stop that trade I can't say whether the Republic should intervene or not. This opinion is informed by real world knowledge of conflict and how for example, the U.S. invading Somalia to stop the slave trade there would be a stupid idea. So the Republic remains at worst value neutral. You can see then that subtlety of ideas has led me to a radically different position on the movies than a lot of people in the thread. At the point where the Jedi are just a bunch of good dudes (with admittedly stupid views on how to deal with attachment) who get screwed over a lot of the ideas behind why they're indistinguishable from their opposition fail. So logically now these films don't have a grand message for me and come down to whether I like and engage with the characters and I really don't apart from Obi when he's busy being detective Obi. That's why I think they're bad.
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Feb 4, 2016 19:16
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Serf posted:Yep, and the prequels reveal that nearly everything he said was bullshit. Which is awesome, in my opinion. And The Clone Wars then shows that everything he said was true. Given Lucas also agrees with The Clone Wars as being an accurate representation of his vision, he wrote episodes of it, which Lucas is correct and why? As a secondary question, if Obi Wan isn't lying is the story better or worse as a result? computer parts posted:You're hitting on a good point, but you're not quite there. The reason why these terrible things don't seem so terrible to you is that you live in a society where terrible things happen all the time. You live in a place where governments are corrupt and sold to the highest bidder. If you live in the US, you've had a war sold to you under false pretenses within the last 15 years. I live in a world where these terrible things happen all the time, fine, I agree. Here's the issue: I don't buy that there is a simple solution to these things and I believe that working within the system is vastly more productive than not doing so. Again, this is premised on my lived in experience of the world, where I've recently seen gay marriage legalised within the U.K. against public opinion for example, which is a positive change that has been achieved through a parliamentary system. If Lucas wants me to disregard this opinion, he should show a world where getting ANY change done is completely impossible. I understand he attempts this in Ep. 1. but a single planet providing unsubstantiated claims of a blockade and being objected to does not mean the democratic system is broken. If you show me the Trade Federation buying out the media on the sly, then I'm buying in more. If you show me people in Theed sick in the streets because of a blockade that is being ignored, I buy in more. My problem is, if you rely on just my experience of the world, then frankly I think the Republic is flawed but okay, in the same way that I view Western Liberal democracy as flawed, but okay. Given this, despite its flaws the Republic is still a net good in my eyes and this is a failure in Lucas' storytelling because of implicit assumptions on the opinions of the audience.
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Feb 4, 2016 19:50
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computer parts posted:There's the fundamental disagreement, since Star Wars has always been about revolutionaries and how working within the system doesn't work. You see this in ANH when the Senate is dissolved and you see it in TPM when the Trade Federation is allowed to continue unabated. I feel that the OT is about how working within a system that is utterly broken, because there is no form of democratic representation at all, requires revolutionary action. The dictator then y'know blows up a planet killing like 8 billion people which is a pretty big failing if I ever saw one. I do not think the PT sufficiently justifies the same kind of action because a single planet making, unfortunately, a baseless claim gets ignored by the Senate. The entire TPM argument in the Senate is literally a "He said, she said" argument. No government in their right mind would act on that. Again, the failing of the PT is that actions that are meant to be "wrong" are completely logical absent further work to show why they are wrong. Also note again, literally no suffering is shown on Naboo beyond a simple statement that the people are starving against Alderaan literally being annihilated.
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Feb 5, 2016 13:29
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computer parts posted:If the OT is working within the system, what would working outside of the system look like? You're misunderstanding. I'm saying that revolutionary action is justified in the case of no democratic representation and a dictator willing to murder billions to prove a point, but unjustified in a trade dispute where neither side has presented any real evidence.
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Feb 6, 2016 02:58
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computer parts posted:Saying something is "jarring" is not clear or understandable. It looks different to everything else in a way that is obviously discernible. There are some scenes in the Special editions that do not do this. They are good. There are scenes that are obvious, they are bad.
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Feb 6, 2016 03:39
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computer parts posted:Yes, and why is that bad? Okay, you want me to say "Because it's less realistic" What I'll say instead is this. When we approach the film an aesthetic forms in our mind based on what we see. In the case of Star Wars this is the 70s/80s junk aesthetic it goes for. Whilst this is different and unrealistic from the world we live in, as time goes on through the movie we accept it as "Real" in the context of the movie because everything is presented to us in this format. There are some who won't accept the world of the movie, the movie won't draw them in visually, that is fair. But the visual direction of the film gets most people to accept the world as is. We'll call this "immersion" for ease of statement. What immersion allows a film to do is present a less realistic vision of the world because we're visually already accepting a world that isn't our own. This allows for more outlandish concepts to be brought forward later more easily and allows the film to use these to challenge a person's worldview. So New Hope progresses from seeing a few different aliens, droids and a farm to seeing a mix between all three at Mos Eisley. When a film presents a "Jarring" visual, it creates something that obviously does not fit within the visual aesthetic of the world. This reminds the viewer on a conscious and subconscious level that the world they are watching is not a real world and makes the introduction of more outlandish concepts later on more difficult. As such the movie has more difficulty communicating the ideas that it wants to. That hurts any message the film wants to send.
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Feb 6, 2016 03:54
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Yaws posted:Ewan MacGregor without a wig: Yes. I'm unclear of what you're trying to prove.
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Feb 6, 2016 04:02
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computer parts posted:Obviously not, or else people wouldn't bitch about the PT so much. The aesthetic fits the movie, but people aren't immersed because they don't like how it looks. You'll note earlier in the post you quoted I noted "There are some who won't accept the world of the movie, the movie won't draw them in visually, that is fair." In the case of the PT it is unfortunate but the "some" is actually "most." I don't need to explain whether CGI visuals are good or bad. I just need to explain why dissonant visuals are bad.
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Feb 6, 2016 04:10
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computer parts posted:Dissonant visuals are often good. Many movies use them. Hell, ESB used dissonant visuals with Yoda. Okay, let me rephrase. Dissonant visuals absent any other purpose are bad because of the immersion displacement effect I've already mentioned. Dissonant visuals with a purpose require a purpose that is sufficiently beneficial to overcome the harm of the immersion displacement effect. This is untrue of many of the changes made in ANH .
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Feb 6, 2016 04:17
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computer parts posted:Which restated is "Dissonance that I like is good, Dissonance I don't like is bad. I didn't like many of the changes made in ANH". I just want it noted that I really really loving tried to actually have a reasonable discussion and you decided to bring it to this because you're unwilling to concede that dissonance might EVER be bad. Tell me what the bantha walking in front of Obi Wan and Luke achieves.
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Feb 6, 2016 04:32
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