Not these assholes again: Bundy sons, Militia seize federal building

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Not these assholes again: Bundy sons, Militia seize federal building

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

twistedmentat posted:

There was a time when open and armed insurrection against the government would be crushed and the leaders hung. Now they'll be treated with kit gloves and get book and TV deals out of it because of the power of the nutjob media.

I wouldn't assume so. The US has a history of shooting crazy armed white men who barricade themselves in.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 06:12

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 10:27

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Sucrose posted:

Obviously I don't support Cliven Bundy and his gang of gun-toting assholes, who are going to get someone killed, but the ranchers in question still ought to be sentenced to the jail time that the judge originally saw fit to give them, not given a 5-year mandatory minimum for breaking a terrorism statute.

Right I was just noticing this. Ignoring the militia context here, it seems kind of bullshit to order someone back to jail after they've served their sentence.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 07:43

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

A. Beaverhausen posted:

It's incredibly stupid that a white armed militia can take over a federal building, while being vocal about defending their position with violence, and be treated with kids gloves, but if they were black or muslim the hellfire that would rain down...

Yeah, but you seem more upset these guys aren't getting shot than that they would be if they weren't white.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 17:47

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

There's avoiding confrontation and then there's this

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/683703713223987202 posted:

The militia men are leaving and reentering the refuge standoff at will. Two of them recorded a video at a motel in town in this morning.

It also doesn't even sound like federal law enforcement is involved at all. FBI just says "we're aware of the situation."

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 18:45

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Luigi Thirty posted:

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/cnn-analyst-white-militiamen-arent-a-threat-like-black-protesters-because-theyre-not-looting-anything/

CNN's law enforcement expert says that these guys aren't a threat because unlike black people and Muslims they don't loot things

This is the marshal who shot at the kid and dog at Ruby Ridge.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 19:31

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Livestream here, they're eyeing the watchtower.

http://livestream.com/accounts/13464984/events/4610169

Dapper_Swindler posted:

lol seriously?

I guess technically he only shot the dog, but yeah...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#The_incident_at_the_.22Y.22_in_the_trails

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 21:02

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

This is what happens when you don't shut down the situation quickly

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_militants_in_high_spiri.html posted:

Peltier elaborated on her encounters in a phone interview Sunday with The Oregonian/OregonLive, saying some in the group are armed and others are not. She said protesters are moving freely in and out of the facility and are bringing children onto the grounds Sunday.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 21:05

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Somebody just said the Bundy's phone number on livestream. Kind of want to start spamming it...

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 21:28

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Discendo Vox posted:

Be really careful with twitter accounts in this scenario- a lot of them will be folks parroting and creating far right claims about the sitation.

Especially when some reporter said she could only see 6-12 guys there, not 150

Makes it hard to take any of their claims about this seriously.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 21:48

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Discendo Vox posted:

ed by crazy "muh land" ideology, was a peaceful nonevent.
[*]The Bundys, while being emphasized in media accounts because they're who America recognizes, aren't leading the occupation- they're being used as voices to promote it. Actual leadership is hard to confirm, but it appears to be organized by "III Percenters" - a very loose set of state-level right wing militias whose name comes from the (bullshit) idea that only 3% of Americans took up arms against the British. This lets them think of themselves as the Spartan Elect, instead of fringe loners. Have an interview video from rightwing internet news. Spoiler alert: vertical wood paneling.

Three %ers are distancing themselves. Doesn't seem like any Oregonians are involved.

https://twitter.com/intelwire/status/683716830226214912

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 22:25

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Mercury_Storm posted:

I don't think anyone should be giving the Feds the benefit of the doubt here after how badly they botched the bundy ranch situation, what with no one actually facing any consequences whatsoever as far as I can tell. In the previous incident, I was with the camp that thought they would definitely just be picking up these people one by one and charging them after the fact. That was almost two loving years ago.

I would be surprised if the feds took action here without a lot of outside pressure.

Apparently they haven't bothered to set up a command post yet.

https://twitter.com/ClaudiaKoerner/status/683759815571554304

Although it's always hard to tell with these situations how much of this anonymous sourcing from the police is trying to manipulate the group.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 22:31

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Jarmak posted:

Occupying things with guns is not a peaceful protest.

Doesn't seem like anyone's actually asked them to leave yet, and they are letting people come onto the property freely

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 23:21

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Anosmoman posted:

Fine but other judges disagreed with that judge. The Ninth Court of Appeals upheld the federal sentencing law, saying �given the seriousness of arson, the five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense".

Sorry, you don't get to chose which court and judge you want to listen to. There's a process and theoretically it applies to everyone equally. It's in the constitution.

I don't think anyone would be that incensed about them being given a five year sentence, it's that they'd already served their time and been released. It just feels wrong to re-sentence them, even if it's legal. It's like that guy who was accidentally never sent to prison and they discovered it 14 years later and he'd built a whole life for himself. Technically, it's only fair to send him back to jail to serve his sentence, but most people would say that it's wrong.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 23:24

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

I am curious (if this turns into a prolonged thing) how the GOP canidates will react. 5 of them had expressed positive settlement or even support toward bundy the first time.

If it's anything like Colorado, none of them will say a thing.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 00:02

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Man Whore posted:

So I apologize if it was posted but I'm not going to read page after page of goons lusting for redneck blood, but where is the statement saying that they will shoot anyone who tries to arrest them? Like I think III%ers are laughable at best and human scum at worst but frankly the people calling for no mercy ruby ridge re-does are kind of disturbing.

"We will be here as long as it takes," Bundy said. "We have no intentions of using force upon anyone, (but) if force is used against us, we would defend ourselves."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 01:42

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Local federal law enforcement, surely?

quote:

The White House on Monday referred to an armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon as a �local law enforcement matter.�

Spokesman Josh Earnest�s comments come even though the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has taken charge of the response to the incident along with state and local agencies.
�Ultimately this is a local law enforcement matter and the FBI is monitoring the situation and offering support to local law enforcement officials,� Earnest said.

The spokesman added that President Obama is �aware� of the situation and said there are no federal employees at risk.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/264673-white-house-calls-oregon-standoff-a-local-law-enforcement

This seems dumb. Hard to imagine local law enforcement in rural Oregon are equipped to do much of anything, and god forbid they try and it really would turn into a bloodbath.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 21:33

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

zeal posted:

If the FBI really has yet to set up a basic circumvallation of these dipshits and their birdwatching fort, I really have to question the competence of every level of the federal response to this.

A decision like that was almost assuredly made at the highest level and is more likely political than anything else.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 21:36

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

McDowell posted:

Like hyping San Bernadino as 'terrorism' while actively avoiding that label for the Charleston shooting?

Yes, although I don't love your examples. I would hardly say people were hyping San Bernadino as terrorism until it became abundantly clear they were supporting ISIS. FBI repeatedly refused to make any statements for days on whether or not it was terrorism and a lot of people seemed to think it was just a workplace shooting until that no longer made sense.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 21:47

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Cythereal posted:

I suspect it's trying to tell the militia "We're not impressed. You dipshits aren't worth our time."

Oh I'm sure, and there's a logic to it, but I don't love the precedent it sets, which is that any armed group can go takeover federal buildings as long as they are unoccupied at the time and they aren't blowing them up.

edit: I mean, if CAIR did this same thing to protest a Muslim being unfairly added to the no fly list, what would happen? It opens up huge claims of selective enforcement.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jan 4, 2016

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 21:59

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Al! posted:

They know exactly who these people are and where they live what they've spent money on, all of their personal texts phone calls and emails, who their known associates are, and could have any of them picked up at any time after this blows over.

Why would they even need to even physically be present.

But will they? They didn't do it after the last Bundy stand-off. It seems more like a decision to just hope it blows over than to arrest them peacefully later.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 22:03

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Al! posted:

Probably not but they don't have to, these men are scum, but probably only a threat to their family and friends, a matter for local law enforcement.

Now if you want to get into how race plays into deciding who is "harmless" and who isn't from that perspective we can have a conversation.

I'll ignore the race thing, because you're right, that's a different discussion in many ways, but are these people "only a threat to their family and friends"? I don't think the Bundys themselves are stupid enough to want to commit violence at this point, they seem to be benefitting from their niche celebrity, but they and the broader militia/sovereign citizen absolutely attract some crazy, violent people, who have absolutely no problems committing violence and murder.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 22:19

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Hammerstein posted:

Interested European watching this:

Can you point me to some good reading about how militias in the US work ?

How does their leadership function in this situation ? Does the head honcho with the biggest gun become leader ? I don't see how 150 heavily armed radicals squatting in some log hut in the forest can go wrong.

Probably closer to 15-20 than 150. Hard to describe them as having a leader, there's hundreds of loosely affiliated militia groups around the US with a handful of people in them that don't do really do anything.

The SPLC has published some stuff on the movement, which makes for a good starting place.

https://www.splcenter.org/20090801/second-wave-return-militias

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/antigovernment

# ¿ Jan 4, 2016 23:26

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Radbot posted:

The truly insane thing about this is that people ever viewed Waco and Ruby Ridge as sad or regrettable in any way, at least compared to what is visited upon minorities every loving day.

Come on, those were huge gently caress-ups. Ruby Ridge started off with some bullshit weapons charges because the guy wouldn't be their informant, then they told him the wrong date he was supposed to go to court, and rather than correcting that, they issued a warrant and surrounded his property. And then later sent a USMS team to his property and shot his dog and child. And then they issued shoot on sight orders for all adults in the house based on a bullshit claim that they fired upon a news helicopter. Then they shot him, his friend, and his wife, who was holding a loving baby at the time, while they were trying to run for cover.

How is that not sad or regrettable in any way?

Xandu fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 5, 2016

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 00:23

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Torpor posted:

Radbot is wrong but I think there is general irritation that there appears to be two completely separate justice systems depending upon the color of your skin and what you believe.

And that's totally fair and I completely agree. But the problem is that sometimes people take that too far and rather than just advocating for treating all groups fairly, there's this almost bloodlust that white people aren't being shot by police too. And that makes me uncomfortable.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 00:29

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Thump! posted:

Goddamn, did the BLM rape his mother or something? How the hell do people get so pissed off at such a relatively benign organization?

Yeah there's a weird trend that causes them to flip out about obscure organizations. I was just on some militia site yesterday raging against the US Forest Service. Like, what?

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 00:48

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

A Saucy Bratwurst posted:

There's one guy commenting on a page amongst a lot more people and then there's another guy singling him out and encouraging raiding of his profile.

its 1 step away from tumblr level doxxing bullshit. You dudes wonder why dnd is the worst forum, it's because your heads are so far up your arses you can't actually see you are exactly the same types of people as the ones you poo poo on, except for your political alignment.

E: But then again, this is the same forum who thinks what these guys are doing is worse than rioting and burning peoples cars and businesses.

It's a public, high profile page, not even someone's profile. I think posting screenshots of morons' opinions is a pretty low form of discourse, but I don't think it's doxxing and I'm okay with it.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 02:10

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

A Saucy Bratwurst posted:

That's a profile link.

Lol I just skimmed the screenshot. Yeah, that's probably not something we're going to encourage here, but whatever.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 02:37

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-oregon-militia-allies-idUSKBN0UJ04120160105

Interesting negative reaction from other militia groups.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 05:43

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Radbot posted:

I get why they're not shooting these guys up, but why aren't they placing LRADs or other non-injurious but highly annoying things? There's no way this lasts for more than a day when you're getting 24 hours of 90db shrill sirens in your ears.

Because annoying and depriving unstable people of sleep tends to make them more unstable.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 23:05

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Radbot posted:

So? Who cares? Set up a loudspeaker outside the front door, then walk away.

So insane that people care about the acute mental wellbeing of people barricaded in a federal building. Perhaps we should just give them what they want, lest they become unhappy.

How do you think the current situation turns into this