Is atheism a choice?

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Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Atheism isn't a choice, per se, rather it's the result of what happens when someone intentionally exercises their free will to enforce control over how they perceive their environment. Atheism's a handy defense mechanism for all those people out there who like to stay in their own skulls and want to keep their experiences filtered into "real world" goals with quantifiable rewards as the evidence of their success.

In other words, Atheism casts existential doubts aside to put food on the table. Change is an inevitable force in nature, however, so an atheist cannot be one forever (which is kind of the point anyway).

# ¿ Jan 22, 2016 12:46

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 06:16

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

les fleurs du mall posted:

for those of you saying atheism isn't a choice:

if it isn't a choice, then how can it be reasonable / fair / just / acceptable to judge, criticize or belittle others for not being atheists? (since they don't choose to not be)

That would be like judging / criticizing / belittling gay people, since they don't choose to be gay.

Atheism is a time-tested, naturally-occurring thoughtform that appears in any person who'd rather inject rationality and healthy amounts of skepticism into their world and their own psycho-social development.

Like, I can see how in the psychological models used in Loevinger's 9 Stages of Ego Development, Atheism could serve as a solid foundation for any of these stages to be built upon. For example, most people raised in more religious homes tend to arrive upon Atheism as "Their Choice" somewhere around the 5th Stage Self-Aware Ego, when they realize they're empowered to fashion their own beliefs, separate from their peers' or their parents' - however nowadays I can just as easily see Atheism being the norm for most internet people currently, so it's possible to be an atheist who's content to reside in their 4th Stage Conformist Ego. However ~

I'm not really sure how one could get all the way up to Loevinger's Stage 9 Ego purely on Atheism alone without engaging in at least some innately-Buddhist practices (meditation, self-analysis & discovery, relaxation & body control, etc), but then again Buddhism's closer to a set of mental exercises and general blessings than it is akin to organized religion.

For me however, becoming an Atheist was an essential part of my 5th Stage Self-Aware Ego's development, but I know that after several positive hallucinatory experiences during my 6th Stage (Conscientious) Ego's experimentations, I would've called myself an enthusiastic Agnostic. It was only after I'd furthered my relationships that I reached the 7th Stage (individualistic) Ego, wherein I'd accepted that the paradoxical thoughts I had cluttering my concept of self-worth and identity might be something more than mere Jungian archetypes at play, so that by the time I'd found myself (now as a Pantheist) suddenly launching into the 8th Stage of (Autonomous) Ego Development, all that deconstruction and re-conceptualizing people and faces and places and things in my life as gods and facets and forces and symbols bearing great power, it all finally came to a head once the meta-programming I'd been working on separately kicked into high gear and now I've landed on the fast-track through to the 9th (Integrated) Stage. Wish me luck everybody.

ALSO: Peace be with you all - to you and yours. Long days and pleasant nights. Love is the wellspring of light, the basis of all power. Maintain thoughts of love and compassion for those you encounter, and the magic is real. Look for the synchronicities around you, and take comfort in their presence. Thou art God, after all. By swearing to do the most good for the least harm; do as thou wilt. I love you (yes you). Godspeed.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2016 00:39

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Jazerus posted:

If Nirvana's filled with folks like you, count me out.

Nirvana is filled with much more folks like you, to be quite honest, in that most people don't encounter Nirvana until "much later" in their lives, usually as part of their transition into the next life or state of existence.

Which is fine. Not a lot of people who "pierce the veil" ultimately get a chance to come back and tell their tale to the living world in any sort of meaningful way, so regardless of your thoughts on this I know it will help.

Ytlaya posted:

You take yourself and your own life way too seriously. There isn't some grand narrative planned out for you.

You take the miracle your own life for granted and undersell your ability to enact positive change in the world. There isn't a grand narrative planned out for you, either, until you try to make one for yourself.

The Kingfish posted:

Is this copypasta? I read through that stages of ego thing, and it's quite retarded.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2016 07:15

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Jizz Festival posted:

You don't just say "I want to get enlightened" and go off to become a monk and then get to that goal in a few years, or a lifetime.

Strangely enough I would say that that's remarkably close to what I've got going on in my life right now, at least when viewed from my own perspective. Don't punish me for having a divergent (heck, at times a downright experimental) worldview, just remember that everyone's trying to do the best they can for the world they've allowed themselves to exist in.

PBWY. Namaste

# ¿ Jan 23, 2016 10:08

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

I for one thank the Great Electron for the existence of Atheists: they humble the gods with their firm resolve to improve material reality as nothing more than a master of the self- alone. It can feel a bit lonely like that, though, after a while.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2016 06:08

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

ITT a lot of smugness about one's own path in life (self included).

Hello folks, after performing some psychic chirurgery on myself I'm back down to a more rational & self-aware level. I'd like to apologize for getting all "preachy" ITT earlier but, honestly, I've learned to follow my spooky compulsions to their weird ends. To each their own, I guess.

To the OP 's topic: I'd like to posit that a conviction for "doing what's right" is much more important than "deciding what's right" for others to have faith in. Allow yourself to maintain a skeptical mind, by all means, just don't limit yourself when trying to resolve the bigger, weirder stuff in life.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 00:58

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Tei posted:

Theres a spirit floating in the sky. This spirit is like superpowerful, can destroy the whole universe if he want.

The no�sphere can be considered a metaphorical "layer of human / biological thought," envisioned to envelop the earth in its atmosphere. Call it the zeitgeist, call it the ebb and flow of civilization, call it the sum total of man and natural forces at work - whatever it is, it is far greater and exponentially more complex than any one individual human could ever be, and it can outright destroy any person's "universe" in a heartbeat.

Tei posted:

This spirit follow you around and can heard what you think and what you do.

NSA jokes aside, I'm pretty sure you can understand how instilling a conscience in the average person is generally a better bet for peaceful society than absolute law, and how it's easier to describe a conscience in terms of spirits before psychology became a scientific field. Also, say what you will about ancestor worship and revering the dead, we still should strive to learn from our predecessors and to act better accordingly.

Tei posted:

He have a serie of rules. If you has been bad, when you die, the spirit will create a clone of you into a spirit form, and torture you forever.

Horrible people do this all the time to others- in the perceived safety of their own minds. Your imagination can be a helluva trip, compadre, and your thoughts on others will shape your actions towards them. Love and compassion for others is the only thing can set your mental torture victims free from the real-life transgressions you act out against them.

Plus, when you've got a rabble of stinky, uneducated desert people you're trying to lead across the barren wastes, sometimes you gotta use the stick instead of the carrot to enact some social control. You've got limited resources - water being chief among them - and yet there's this super-intelligent livestock that people keep around because they just love to eat them, only it just so happens that they require lots of water, shade, and compete for the same staple foodgroups that humans do in an arid, unforgiving desert climate.

Tei posted:

And thats why eating bacon is bad.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 21:24

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

TEAYCHES posted:

Free will does not exist.

OF COURSE FREE WILL EXISTS, OR ELSE WHY WOULD I FEEL SO COMPELLED TO VOICE MY DISAGREEMENT WITH YOU IN ALL CAPS??!?!

Free will is an intentional construct to keep us all guessin' what's gonna happen next.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2016 21:34

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Control Volume posted:

What is atheism? We just don't know *a question mark appears over stock footage of a hideous slug man furiously waving around the god delusion*

# ¿ Feb 11, 2016 20:41

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Does FBI Agent Fox Mulder truly believe, or does he just want to believe, enough to make it real?

Is Agent Scully a skeptic because she needs all the evidence, or is it because she can't ever be 100% sure?

# ¿ Feb 12, 2016 02:19

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

les fleurs du mall posted:

back to the original problem, which is determining whether atheism is actually something you choose, or something that is an inescapable conclusion of certain conditions. I'm asking then if it's like homosexuality.

As with all Nature vs Nurture questions, the answer usually lies in psychoanalysis.

SedanChair posted:

I get the impression that there are not too many atheists out there who periodically struggle with the concern that maybe God or hell is real.

Why do you think atheism is so gold-danged convenient?

SedanChair posted:

A nominally religious person may struggle to pretend that God is real, atheists don't have to struggle as much to maintain their understanding that the universe is without meaning and death is eternal. Because that makes sense.

"If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense" yo, am I right? Seriously though people have religious struggles and crises with what they put their faith into all the time, regardless of the who/what/where/why&how's of that person's particular set of beliefs, religious or otherwise.

Potential BFF posted:

You can reduce a god down to some nebulous and esoteric thing that exists without observable, let alone testable characteristics but I question why anyone would bother.

How about :
"Thou art god,"
from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, followed by:
"So I thought up the world, and you did too,"
from Jim Morrison / The Doors' "In the Eye of the Sun."
Try bothering now, buddy. There are a lot of ways for a loving god to make the world a better place!

Potential BFF posted:

The Earth wasn't created 6000 years ago.

Nope, turns out we're also completely unsure how long human societies have successfuly existed on this planet before now, but we're finding that civilizations were existing way longer than 6,000 years ago from now that's for goddamn sure.

Potential BFF posted:

There wasn't a talking snake in a garden or a magic apple.

Of course there was/is! This is a Creation Myth we're talking about here, not a factual account by any means! There's always gonna be a land-before-now, a proto-man's emergence & creation of order upon nature, a trickster-tester figure setting complications out before them, usually involving some irresistible object of strange and forbidden qualities. Everyone gets to have their own vague definition of what each symbol can mean for them - it's great! It says so much about the human code.

Potential BFF posted:

There was no great flood and no ark to float in it.

The region under the Mediterranean sea wasn't always wet, you know. Also - again - thinking in symbols here: Picture *Earth* the planet as our Ark, which contains all known plant and animal life to date and just allow yourself to envision the cold, uncaring death of *Space* as the biblical flood we're still in escape from, only this time we truly know how momentary and infinitesimally speck-like we are in this existence, swirling endlessly around the massive helical drain plug we call the Milky Way. We can at the very least learn to respect the immense power behind nature's forces and to respect all efforts to preserve natural habitats and their denizens' way of life.

Potential BFF posted:

The Jews were not enslaved in Egypt (a related group may have been at some point)

No I'll bet a lot of them worked a fair share and got paid for it too, and no you're right not all Jews were living in Egypt at the time either.

Potential BFF posted:

Jesus is, at best, an amalgam of a bunch of holy men and prophets.

The same could be said about Shakespeare too. It's almost, like, maybe there's a little bit of Christ in each and every one of us??? Maybe Jesus was just a man too, as divine as you or me or the rest of any of us can be, and that his public sacrifice actually really has improved the state of affairs in society over the long term until a day like this could exist where you don't have to hope away a headache or a simple infection or that there's a million possible ways to answer life's questions now.

Potential BFF posted:

The Abrahamic god doesn't exist and that's good because it's a loving dick.

That god hates figs, man. Good.

Potential BFF posted:

The gods of other religions aren't relevant enough in my day to day life for me to care but they're also pretend.
Boohoo, atheists on the internet are mean.

Control Volume posted:

We need to bring back the bad rear end gods who lived on top of mountains or like on an everliving tree or some poo poo who brutally smite people who talk poo poo about them and are expert pickup artists

Sorry god-ladies, but I've just recently married :smaug:

rudatron posted:

So, let me hypothesize: genesis is symbolic of the growth from childhood to adulthood. Children don't know the difference between right and wrong, they definitely act as if they will live forever (even if they're not technically immortal), the snake and getting kicked out represents humans coming to terms with the fact that they will eventually die, that entropy will eventually consume all. The garden of Eden wasn't a real place, never was, but as a symbol of blissful ignorance it works quite well. Which, weirdly, means that the snake is the good guy, representing the inner critic that tries and gets you to face reality and stopping running away.

/\/\ This reading removes utterly any supernatural significance, but rescues any positive message you could get from it. I said ti before and I'll say it again, the replacement for religion isnt' atheism, but psychoanalysis.

This guy gets it. You get relative humanism. Thanks for sharing with us your interpretations of an ancient human metamyth. Nice that you include the snake (often called Lucifer, or the Light-bringer) being mistaken for the bad guy, when what it is he offered was the gift of knowledge and self-awareness, but at great cost.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2016 20:27

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Man, atheists on the internet sure are bitter souls.

Please all, come back to this discussion once you've excited your pineal gland at least couple times, watched a few BBC nature documentaries (or Cosmos) while stoned, or experienced even a single *profound moment* that felt almost too fortuitous to be likely, and then come back here and tells us what you think and feel about the interconnectedness of nature and life and existence on Earth.

Or (even better) let's breathe in slow, relax and let it go with the flow. You hold the key to Love and Fear in your mind at all times, my friends, so do try to be mindful of the ways in which you're turning it.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2016 03:33

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Who What Now posted:

Looks like someone hasn't been praising the sun enough.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2016 05:18

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

J.A.B.C. posted:

Ah, atheism chat. Never boring.

To answer the OP (and keep in mind that this is my personal views):

Atheism is a choice concerning how one wishes to see the sunrise, as it were. As we grow, our world is impacted by those around us. Cultural norms, societal cues and, yes, beliefs and interpretations come from an amalgamation of our experiences and our own logical processes putting it together. We grow, we accumulate and build upon those notions that we already have. And the process never really stops until we shuffle off the mortal coil.

The choice comes from when those logical processes hit a roadblock and we have to find a way around it. Do we see the sunrise as a beautiful function of an unseen force, explained by a deity in years past up until now? Or do we see it as a beautiful function of our planetary rotation?

From there, do we see the planetary rotation as divine will, or natural law? Can we observe the divine creation, or merely bask in it's existence?

And so the questions branch and twist and turn, becoming our own personal styles of belief. But each question is a choice, a place to decide what view of the world fits inside your beliefs.

To me, the sunrise is the intricate clockwork of a universe that gives not a single gently caress about us. We are alone, drifting in a dark chasm around a star, governed by natural laws and pure chance. And the fact that I'm here, at this point in time to shitpost on a smartphone with people I will never know, is the closest thing to a miracle I can describe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq4uCWtQE24&t=12s

# ¿ Feb 14, 2016 22:15

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Hey guys - just wanted to clear some stuff up in here because you're all scrabbling for purchase on shaky foundations to begin with. Here are some statements:

» The bible is a cultural and historical touchstone for western civilization and should be treated and analyzed like any other culture's collected myths. The Judeo-Christian-Muslim faith is not emblematic of all religions, however, so just because you reject one ancient set of books, it doesn't somehow disprove the (e: potential) existence of god(s).

» Jesus is a real historical figure for man (whether you like it or not), and was as divinely human as you or me. The accounts of his life and his death have sparked great social changes throughout history that reach still to this day, so it's a moot point to argue about his existence.

When I discarded the fantasies of my youth, atheism was my choice to make- but now that I've seen the universe for what it is I find I can no longer make that same choice again, at least not in this lifetime.

Dinosaurmageddon fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Feb 18, 2016

# ¿ Feb 18, 2016 08:53

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

FabioClone posted:

Do we really have to seriously consider all possible claims about gods and the supernatural when there is no supporting evidence besides a book?

No, naturally, of course not!
But not all of life's lessons can come from books but from personal experience, just as any faith can't be fully contained within the pages of a book without limiting how effectively an otherwise contextually-personal experience can be conveyed to the reader. It's a catch-22.
Anyway I just wanted to quit all the Bible-bunking/thumping derails and point out that this isn't a Christianity vs Atheism debate. If anyone here thinks those are the only philosophical worldviews worth discussing then you've still got a long ways to go.

FabioClone posted:

However, I think his existence, or lack thereof, is pretty important for Christians. Their whole religion relies on him actually existing and there not being a dead Jesus body buried somewhere. Not that that couldn't be rationalized away by some, but the truth about his existence is relevant to the most fundamental claims of Christianity.

Oh, Jesus the Man from Nazareth existed, sure, but did Jesus with his "feats of magic" exist- is that what you're asking about?
Don't forget that the Council of Nicea happened, which was when the Church declared Jesus to be a Divine (non-human) Entity, fundamentally different from the rest of us. This is a view in particular I don't espouse: I believe there's an emergent Christ-figure in each and every one of us.

FabioClone posted:

I want to hear more about this please. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that this is the point in your post where the drugs really kicked in.
edit: oh, you edited it out

Yeah, I didn't want to derail, honestly.
John Lennon was the second coming of Christ, the Age of Aquarius has officially begun, and Magic is real and gaining in significance. Art, Love, Music, and Present-Mindedness are be Mankind's greatest assets in t(his/her)heir ascendancy to the Sun, Moon, and Stars, to the Greater Cosmos beyond. What do you want from me? More veiled truths?

Who What Now posted:

Which part of the self do you believe does not take place in the brain?

*I* am the self that resides outside your brain.
Which parts of the brain do you believe house the self?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2016 13:50

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Who What Now posted:

What we call the "self" is the continuous process of your brain interpreting external stimuli and reacting via chemicals mixing among electrical impulses.

False as all hell; information and memories stored in the brain follow internal processes almost wholly independent of the external stimuli they're reacting to.

What you've described here is not the Self but rather how the Self is experiencing the Present Moment as a continuous process.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2016 14:10

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

J.A.B.C. posted:

So, here is a question:

We've seen two sides to the 'believe with your heart' camp, one who said they didn't feel poo poo, and another who said they came to know god.

So what? Is there any sort of repercussion or reward for one side or the other? Why does it matter what someone else finds at the end of the belief tunnel?

Who benefits from hope? Why even try without it?

# ¿ Apr 15, 2016 12:37

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

I did? The 'believe with your heart' camp espouses a degree of hope with daily living, wouldn't you agree?

# ¿ Apr 15, 2016 15:29

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Who What Now posted:

No more than I do. So, again, what's your point?

Hope requires a faith in something greater than the self. That's the whole point - everything and nothing distilled into a third, somehow greater thing.
Hope is the measure of our faith in existence. Peace be with you, who- what- now-ever you are.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2016 18:54

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Ytlaya posted:

I can't fathom anyone who considers themselves a remotely skeptical person thinking that there's any need to introduce anything supernatural (spirits, chi, whatever) into the equation.

There is just as much need for us to discern the world rationally through skepticism as there is for us to engage with the abstract, surreal and supernatural realms of thought that exist within our minds.

Sometimes you apply the right kinds of disciplines, such as meditation, self-hypnosis, neoshamanism and meta-programming, and with enough love, effort, and dedication you really can start to see some interesting effects.

# ¿ Apr 16, 2016 03:11

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 06:16

Dinosaurmageddon: Jul 7, 2007; by zen death robot; Hell Gem

Stinky_Pete posted:

Dunno, I've just been reading Zen and the Art of Archery, which I heard about while reading Zen in the Martial Arts, and they both refer to the state of mind that is achieved when fully in tune with one's art.

I think the word you're looking for is superliminal. The mind is a part of nature.

Thank you - superliminal is a good word.
The mind is part of nature, yes; however whatever we consider "natural" is a concept shaped entirely by the human mind.

Little fun zen archery fact: The Mongols (wielding bows astride their nimble steppe-horses) would time to release their shots right at the moment(s) when their horses' hooves were all clear of the ground. Discovering that the descent in their steeds was predicable for that fraction of a second of mid-air achieved during a gallop gave the Mongols a momentary window to fire a stable shot with their bows and arrows- timed to their horses' biorhythms. :horse:

# ¿ Apr 17, 2016 03:22

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