Will the first Mars colony set a racial precedent?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Will the first Mars colony set a racial precedent?

foobardog: Apr 19, 2007; There, now I can tell when you're posting.

-- A friend

DrProsek posted:

Mars will be all First Nations/Native American peoples. We hosed up their home, it's time to find them a new one.

This but black people will also finally get reparations and the promised 40 acres and a robo-mule. There was a future documentary video game from 1983 that covered this:

# ? Feb 8, 2016 18:49

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 2, 2024 01:56

foobardog: Apr 19, 2007; There, now I can tell when you're posting.

-- A friend

7c Nickel posted:

Racial mix doesn't matter much as long as Mars is exclusively colonized by lesbians who reproduce via scientific parthenogenesis.

Lesbians are already controlling the moon! http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=382

# ? Feb 8, 2016 18:55

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Laphroaig posted:

You're incredibly wrong.

That's after people go to Mars and take their ghosts with them.

# ? Feb 8, 2016 18:57

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

This is literally peak DND. Worrying about a potential mars colony. (Why would we colonize something we haven't even been to yet?) Over whether there will be a correct racial balance.

# ? Feb 8, 2016 19:09

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Crowsbeak posted:

This is literally peak DND. Worrying about a potential mars colony. (Why would we colonize something we haven't even been to yet?) Over whether there will be a correct racial balance.

Away with you, fun hater. Thought experiments are a thing, and nobody is worrying.

# ? Feb 8, 2016 19:12

Control Volume: Dec 31, 2008

Crowsbeak posted:

This is literally peak DND. Worrying about a potential mars colony. (Why would we colonize something we haven't even been to yet?) Over whether there will be a correct racial balance.

I read this in a voice that can't pronounce the letter n

# ? Feb 8, 2016 20:07

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

I object to the problematic term 'colony' as well, why can't we talk about building a Mars community.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

That's after people go to Mars and take their ghosts with them.

I'd be doing a crime against you if I told you to go watch the movie, so I'll just say the ghosts were already on the planet before humans showed up, its ancient martian mine ghosts.

# ? Feb 8, 2016 23:58

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Laphroaig posted:

I object to the problematic term 'colony' as well, why can't we talk about building a Mars commune.

Only in space can humanity free itself from the shackles of materialism and prudishness.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 00:04

Laphroaig: Feb 6, 2004; Drinking Smoke; Dinosaur Gum

blowfish posted:

Only in space can humanity free itself from the shackles of materialism and prudishness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_(novel)

Amazon Review posted:

As the subtitle of this book points out, Alexander's Bogdanov's "Red Star" was "The First Bolshevik Utopia." Bogdanov was a major prophet of the Bolshevik movement and while the red star of his title is the planet Mars, he is clearly envisioning the kind of society that could emerge on Earth after the victory of not only the scientific-technical revolution, a belief that can be traced in utopian literature back to Francis Bacon's "The New Atlantis," but also the social revolution dictated by Marxism. The future of "Red Star" is the radiant future of socialism that Bogdanov believed would eventually triumphant everyone on earth. At one point in the novel the hero, a Bolsehvik activist named Leonid, declares: "Blood is being shed for the sake of a better future. But in order to wage the struggle we must KNOW that future." Of course, Bogdanov believes that he does indeed know the future, thanks to the writings of Marx and Engels.

From a historical perspective the key thing to keep in mind is that Bogdanov is writing well over a decade before the Russian Revolution. In fact, he is writing in reaction to the 1905 revolution that compelled Tsar Nicholas II to issue a constitution and create a parliament. This came after the 1903 split of the Russian Marxists into the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks. Like the hero of "Red Star," Bogdanov went with the former and Lenin, and was one of the original "twenty-two" who met in Switzerland to form a group dedicated to disciplined revolutionary action. As part of this effort, Bogdanov wrote "Red Star."

What is most interesting is that the "tectology" that Bogdanov envisions in constructing his utopia on Mars does not ignore the dangers of collectivisim and high technology (which were at the heart of many of the anti-utopian fantasies of the late tsarist period). He even has a sense of humor: the vegetation on Mars is red, and Leonid calls it "socialist vegetation." On Bogdanov's Mars you will find clothes made out of synthetic material, three-dimension movies, and a death ray, but no political state. Citizens engage in both voluntary labor as well as leisure and culture. The conflict in the story comes when someone tries to change the Martian utopia. Ultimately, you can make the claim that "Red Star" is more science fiction than propaganda, since Bogdanov creates a perfect world where the "labor question" has been made moot by the industrialization of farming. There is no peasant class on Mars for Russian readers to relate too, provided, of course, they were inclined to reading a science fiction utopian novel.

"Red Star" was extremely popular during and after the Russian Revolution and is a fascinating example of utopian literature in that it deals with the problems faced by industrial nations, whether socialist or capitalist, such as atomic energy, the environment, biomedical ethics, and shortages of food and natural resources. The illustrations for "Red Star" are taken from the 1923 Moscow edition. This volume includes Charles Rougle's translations of the complete texts of not only "Red Star," but also Bogdanov's 1913 novel "Engineer Menni" and a 1927 poem "A Martian Stranded on Earth." These latter two works appear in English for the first time in this collection. "Engineer Menni" takes the then current beliefs about the natural history of Mars and uses it to tell a story about the construction of the canals as a parable of class struggle. The heroes of the story, as the title indicates, are the engineers, who would indeed do great work in transforming the Soviet Union in the 20th century. "Red Star" is an important example of utopian literature that should be back in print.

Amazon Review posted:

These two novellas, Red Star (RS) and Engineer Menni (EM), capture a fascinating time and frame of mind. The time was 1908 (1913 for EM), when the Bolsheviks were gaining strength but before their 1917 revolution against the Tsarists.

RS describes a Socialist Utopia on Mars, documented by a visitor from Earth. He is chosen among all earthmen for his properly revolutionary spirit, and whisked away to Mars as their earthly envoy. This Socialist paradise presents an odd paradox of individual vs. collective. Individual achievement is nominally scorned, because of the historical inevitability of a discovery, or because honoring the great inventor would implicitly dishonor the farmer or laborer. Still, the story focuses on the magnificent achievements of exceptional scientists, silently mocking the brotherly equality supposedly being celebrated. EM is a similar tribute of hero-worhip for a fictional engineer of RS's pre-Socialist past, with similarly hollow regard for the common proletarian.

Actual descriptions of the Martian Utopia sometimes sink under the weight of revolutionary rhetoric, but I consider that to be part of this book's value. The narrator's socialist zeal, bordering on ranting, seems to capture an actual mind-set of the time, or perhaps a fictional mind-set that Bolshevik propagandists wanted people to believe in. Every fact in the story had to be intepreted in a properly socialist way, down to details of physics and children's squabbles over toys.

This monomania, whether Bogdanov genuinely felt it or not, explains much of Soviet history up to the recent fall of communism in Eastern Europe. It appears in the narrator's fawning respect for a machine tool operator, one so devoted to his task that his supervisors were concerned that his zeal for work might endanger his health. It explains why the art museum has two sections, one where the inevitability of their contemporary art is traced in historical examples, the other where tools and consumer goods are displayed as the society's highest esthetic achievements.

An odd tone pervades both stories, though, an underlying melancholy that drives even the strongest of Bogdanov's characters to nervous collapse or to suicide. I don't know Russian literature very well. Perhaps that "memento mori" is part of their writing, perhaps there was thought to be something noble in ending one's own life before the weakness of age stripped one of his powers. A modern reader can only wonder why this profound sadness seemed to follow from the success of socialism.

Bogdanov's larger-than-life engineers and scientists remind me of Ayn Rand's characters in Atlas Shrugged, Anthem, and The Fountainhead. She was a Russian emigre, so she must have been exposed to the literary tradition and the kinds of heroes that Bogdanov portrayed. Her treatment of those very similar characters is very different, though. Where Bogdanov tried to diffuse their achievements across the socialist whole, Rand ennobled the individual. RS gives me a much better understanding of the trends and values that Rand answered in her own writing.

Although bland in themselves, RS and EM are informative. They show the ideals, whether heartfelt or imagined, that led to the revolution of 1917. They also show the core values that led to the revolution's eventual failure, so many years later.

Amazon Review posted:

I'M COMPLETLY SATISFIED. I RECEIVE MY BOOK

QUICKLY AND IT WAS NEW. I JUST HAVE TO SAY

THAT I'M SATISFIED

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Feb 9, 2016

# ? Feb 9, 2016 00:06

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

Zombies' Downfall posted:

Honestly it's going to be really cool when we encounter alien life for the first time and conquer or destroy it because it's primitive and weird instead of being like, technologically superior and either enlightened or terrifying like Vulcans or Predators.

Frankly I find the concept of a bug that thinks offensive.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 01:01

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

Mars will be exclusively colonized by nobodies.

Cause nobody will be able to survive there.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 01:07

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Helsing posted:

Frankly I find the concept of a bug that thinks offensive.

Bugs do think, though?

If humans ever became spaceborne we would become socialized like bees. That's part of the incisiveness of Independence Day that I hope is brought into the sequel - the aliens are mac-using technolocusts.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 01:13

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

McDowell posted:

Bugs do think, though?

If humans ever became spaceborne we would become socialized like bees. That's part of the incisiveness of Independence Day that I hope is brought into the sequel - the aliens are mac-using technolocusts.

Insects with intelligence? Have you ever met one? I can't believe I am here this none-sense.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 01:28

Poke Chop: Apr 27, 2008

Depends on who wins the glorious Martian revolutionary war. Sovereign confederates or the Musk loyalist army.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 01:44

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Helsing posted:

Insects with intelligence? Have you ever met one? I can't believe I am here this none-sense.

They build. They have society and do things with purpose. Each individual has a brain (albeit a tiny one compared to you). If humans became interplanetary or interstellar wouldn't we be like a fractal continuation of earth life. We would likely bring plants and maybe well domesticated animals with us. We'll unintentionally bring bacteria and insects everywhere.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 02:04

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

McDowell posted:

They build. They have society and do things with purpose. Each individual has a brain (albeit a tiny one compared to you). If humans became interplanetary or interstellar wouldn't we be like a fractal continuation of earth life. We would likely bring plants and maybe well domesticated animals with us. We'll unintentionally bring bacteria and insects everywhere.

The only good bug is a dead bug.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 02:08

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

McDowell posted:

They build. They have society and do things with purpose. Each individual has a brain (albeit a tiny one compared to you). If humans became interplanetary or interstellar wouldn't we be like a fractal continuation of earth life. We would likely bring plants and maybe well domesticated animals with us. We'll unintentionally bring bacteria and insects everywhere.

Not if we become beings of pure energy.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 02:41

Mc Do Well: Aug 2, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

My Linux Rig posted:

Not if we become beings of pure energy.

I doubt that will happen anytime soon (or colonization for that matter) - it all comes from Arthur Clarke's ideas in '2001 A Space Odyssey'. Electronics and a photocopied brain is a neat thought experiment but at present its just as real as the 1950's brain in a jar.

Humans need to be worthy and responsible for perpetuating life into the universe. When everyone is white no-one will be.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 02:49

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

What if...what if we're the bugs?!??!

# ? Feb 9, 2016 04:38

Aves Maria!: Jul 26, 2008; Maybe I'll drown

I think we need to address the real threat Martians pose to our way of life. Martian on Martian crime is out of control, and it's beginning to find its way into our atmosphere.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 04:41

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

McDowell posted:

the aliens are mac-using technolocusts.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 09:14

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

free gay mars

# ? Feb 9, 2016 12:49

Libluini: May 18, 2012; I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...; Grimey Drawer

Crowsbeak posted:

This is literally peak DND. Worrying about a potential mars colony. (Why would we colonize something we haven't even been to yet?) Over whether there will be a correct racial balance.

Excuse me? We are there right now.

(Robots are people, too!)

# ? Feb 9, 2016 13:11

Thump!: Nov 25, 2007; Look, fat, here's the fact, Kulak!

rudatron posted:

What if...what if we're the bugs?!??!

I'm from Olympus Mons, and I say kill em all!

# ? Feb 9, 2016 13:25

les fleurs du mall: Jun 30, 2014; by LadyAmbien

-Troika- posted:

heres some cask strength millenial.png:

# ? Feb 9, 2016 14:02

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

McDowell posted:

I doubt that will happen anytime soon (or colonization for that matter) - it all comes from Arthur Clarke's ideas in '2001 A Space Odyssey'. Electronics and a photocopied brain is a neat thought experiment but at present its just as real as the 1950's brain in a jar.

Humans need to be worthy and responsible for perpetuating life into the universe. When everyone is white no-one will be.

You sound really energyphobic there, buddy. You might need to open your mind a bit.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 15:21

Smudgie Buggler: Feb 27, 2005; SET PHASERS TO "GRINDING TEDIUM"

Selection of colonisers will almost certainly be either meritocratic or plutocratic. Either way, the first wave will be like at least 50% Jewish.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 16:27

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Can someone remind me of the name of a short story I read once? I think it was by Ray Bradbury. In it, all the black people in America get fed up with Jim Crow and go and land on Mars, painstakingly putting together a functional futuristic society. White earthlings rejoice and look like dickheads. Anyway, like 200 years later, a bunch of rag-tag white people show up at Black people Mars and explain they've managed to destroy the earth in a horrific nuclear holocaust.

Initially all the black Martians let them in and reconstitute Jim Crow, but on Mars, and all the white people are ushers and porters and poo poo. Then some black Martian dude goes all "hey this is pretty bad" and in the end in a postracial society begins to flourish

Someone please remind me of the name of this story I've been looking for it for years

# ? Feb 9, 2016 16:48

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

Smudgie Buggler posted:

Selection of colonisers will almost certainly be either meritocratic or plutocratic. Either way, the first wave will be like at least 50% Jewish.

nice namedropping the non-planet right here... :rolleyes:

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:00

Pinch Me Im Meming: Jun 26, 2005

Frog Act posted:

Can someone remind me of the name of a short story I read once? I think it was by Ray Bradbury. In it, all the black people in America get fed up with Jim Crow and go and land on Mars, painstakingly putting together a functional futuristic society. White earthlings rejoice and look like dickheads. Anyway, like 200 years later, a bunch of rag-tag white people show up at Black people Mars and explain they've managed to destroy the earth in a horrific nuclear holocaust.

Initially all the black Martians let them in and reconstitute Jim Crow, but on Mars, and all the white people are ushers and porters and poo poo. Then some black Martian dude goes all "hey this is pretty bad" and in the end in a postracial society begins to flourish

Someone please remind me of the name of this story I've been looking for it for years

"The Other Foot" short story in The illustrated Man, 1951.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:02

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:

"The Other Foot" short story in The illustrated Man, 1951.

thank you so much man that has been driving me nuts for ages. I always forget how much Bradbury owned in terms of demonstrating the power of analogy in hard science fiction, especially for a dude writing about race relations in 1951.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:22

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Frog Act posted:

thank you so much man that has been driving me nuts for ages. I always forget how much Bradbury owned in terms of demonstrating the power of analogy in hard science fiction, especially for a dude writing about race relations in 1951.

In that same vein, you'll like this:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2014/06/arthur-c-clarke-1971-reunion.html

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:24

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

None, the incredibly toxic soil will prevent it from ever having anything other than the most rudimentary little science base that's not worth the ridiculous expense. It's never going to be "colonized".

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:46

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Baronjutter posted:

None, the incredibly toxic soil will prevent it from ever having anything other than the most rudimentary little science base that's not worth the ridiculous expense. It's never going to be "colonized".

Martian soil isn't toxic.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:50

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Laphroaig posted:

You're incredibly wrong.

I like the space tek 9

Effectronica posted:

Martian soil isn't toxic.

I'd expect it to have a decent amount of heavy metals in it at least, maybe that's what's meant?

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:51

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

OwlFancier posted:

I like the space tek 9

I'd expect it to have a decent amount of heavy metals in it at least, maybe that's what's meant?

Martian soil is perfectly safe to grow plants in, as far as soil analysis equipment can tell. It's low on humus and would probably need fertilization, but that's an entirely different thing.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 18:54

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Huh, weird, would have thought the lack of life and aridity of the planet would mean more contaminants in the surface soil.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 19:05

Soylent Yellow: Nov 5, 2010; yospos

Since everybody on Mars is going to have hosed-up arms, chest-foetuses or three titties, I think the colour of someone's skin is the leat of our worries.

# ? Feb 9, 2016 19:06

angerbot: Mar 23, 2004; plob

I call dibs on the good part of Mars

# ? Feb 9, 2016 20:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 2, 2024 01:56

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Effectronica posted:

Martian soil isn't toxic.

http://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html

Mars is a stupid place and anyone who talks about "colonizing" it doesn't know what the gently caress they're talking about. There will be billions of humans living in space before there's a critical mass of idiots with unlimited funds who decide to try it in earnest. It will probably end up being a future pyramid scheme or real-estate scam and they'll probably say the word "terraforming" with a straight face in their sales pitch.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 9, 2016

# ? Feb 9, 2016 20:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Will the first Mars colony set a racial precedent?

«‹›3 »