Right-Wing Populism: Why now?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Right-Wing Populism: Why now?

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

SlipUp posted:

There was an interesting moment in the Nevada debate where Cruz was going after Trump on healthcare and there was a moment where Cruz basically got Trump to admit he didn't agree with the republican "establishment" healthcare platform.

Cruz: "So it's socialism?"

Trump: "Call it what you want we're not going to let people die in the streets."

That kind of exchange actually benefits Trump in the long term. He sets himself apart from what was once a wide range of candidates most of whom views differed only slightly on any given issue. Trump essentially takes both stances so everyone watching will come away with their own view of his beliefs.

The congressional gridlock did not endear the establishment to the masses. Their do nothing policy basically paved the way for the first person to promise them everything. It's been eight years of nothing in the minds of republican voters, they'll happily vote for somebody who is willing to get things done. I don't know what a president Trump would do myself, but I do agree he would do things. That's why the Wall is such a big vote getter for him, it's a symbolic wall really, a show that things are getting done. Not just more bureaucracy and politically correct wording but a real tangible thing doing something.

Honestly, I don't think he would be any worse than any other republican candidate.

it also makes cruz look like a dick and zelot. trump is willing to do whatever to keep people alive and health care. cruz wont do poo poo and would allow people to die in the streets because socialism/trumpism/whatever is against his believes. I am sure trump probaly full of poo poo but he comes off as more honest then cruz in that situation.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2016 02:27

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 23:54

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Whitecloak posted:

This sort of identity politicking is part of what is driving the right wing populist surge in America, I'm thinking. I wager similar things are fueling the same animus over in Europe- when refugees or those using the refugee crisis for personal gain act badly and commit real bodily crime and well-to-do scolds chastise the natives for daring to be so intolerant.

I do not wish any harm to the Islamic community, but caring about minority interests to the exclusion of the disaffected American working class is driving said working class towards hatred. I don't think the racial or immigration part of the Trump package are fueling the interest around here so much as the anti-TPP/NAFTA talk--

If we could get a protectionist candidate with a solid industrial policy who wasn't a belligerent racist I'd go with that. I prefer Bernie to Trump, vastly and completely. But it seems wrong to me to assume that an establishment Dem, with a known record of 'tough on crime' talk is going to magic up an end to racial animosity in America. Hillary has taken the coin of the private prison industry, hasn't she?

your not wrong, i know a bunch of friends who will end up voting for trump because they are sick of being talked down to by the left. identity politicking has sadly hurt the left. its to easy to use a band aid, the parts of left would rather care about stupid poo poo like Harvard removing the title "masters" and stupid poo poo in media, are these issues, yeah, but we shouldnt treat them they way the right treats its issues and scream and yell and force people to kowtow over them. its why the left other then bernie is losing people. it sucks.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2016 17:29

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Your Dunkle Sans posted:

If we're using anecdotes, my sister and her fianc� are voting for Trump all the way. My sister is firefighter/EMT, the fianc� a fire chief. There's a lot of sympathy (at least for Ohio) and echo chamber love in fire houses for Trump because they feel like "he's telling it like it is" and is willing to defend fire fighters and police officers where other politicians aren't going to bat for them.

My sister and I aren't close, but I think she's at least a little racist given her reactions during the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown incidents. As for education, she got her associate's and certification before joining the fire service and is working on finishing her Bachelor's now. Politically, my parents are backing Hillary while I'm backing Sanders. We're, uh, a fragmented family.

what politicians/activists attack fire fighters? Cops i understand, but all fire fighters do is save people. unless its the 60s in the south.

My family split. My mom likes clinton and my dad likes kashich. he hates trump and dislikes cruz. he says he wont vote if either get the nom. hell most of the conservatives in my family hate trump.

# ¿ Feb 29, 2016 00:15

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Nonsense posted:

Yep. It's a shame, it isn't President Obama's fault, but he broke something deep. It seems this is something that isn't going to conveniently dissipate after Nov. 7.

he was black and left of Mussolini so he broke the bases brain.

VitalSigns posted:

Trump doesn't want to protect American jobs any more than he gives a poo poo about overturning Obergefell and Roe v Wade. This is the Trump phenomenon, people seeing a bombastic liar and convincing themselves that he's only telling those other people what they want to hear but when he's talking to me it's because he cares and wants to help me.

Protecting jobs and wages means being pro-union and it means coming down hard on businesses for hiring illegally, not coming down on illegal immigrants and making it impossible for them to report unlawful employment practices.

this. if he got elected. he would probably build the wall(try too) or and deport a ton of people. that would act of enough of a placebo effect for the base.

# ¿ Feb 29, 2016 15:18

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

also. this just happend in russia.

:nms:

https://news.vice.com/article/woman-holding-decapitated-childs-head-arrested-outside-moscow-metro-station-1 :nms:

expect trump to get a whole lot worse on the muslim front.

# ¿ Feb 29, 2016 15:24

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Whitecloak posted:

I think that this is a big part of the 'why now' for the right wing populist backlash. In Europe and at home, the working classes have been betrayed by the parties that ostensibly supported them- and the only people offering answers or hopes, false or otherwise, have been rightist.

i think the issue is pretty much that. the working class/ working poor feel betrayed by both parties and are looking for a third(probably worse) way. they tried with the left and eventually the left stopped caring about them. the right catered/cockteased them with dog whistling and blaming their problems on other poor people of different races or other minority's. but at the end of the day the establishment right only cared about the rich. now trump is giving them the full plater. none of it will help or work. but its a good placebo for the uneducated and or intolerant.

rakovsky maybe posted:

Iran is the only major Obama-era foreign policy victory and Hillary had nothing to do with it. Interestingly, Trump has said its a terrible deal but pointedly refused to say he would rip it up like the other Republicans were promising to do.

i thought he did said he would tear it up. guess, i am wrong.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2016 23:28

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

V. Illych L. posted:

the tl;dr is don't vote trump if you're frustrated with identity politics, it is literally the dumbest thing you can do

well no poo poo. sure i am frustrated by parts of it,(and apperently an evil racist trump supporter) but trump would just make the right wing identity politics 1000% worse. it would give credence to every wannabe KKK/PUA retard.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2016 04:20

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Ocrassus posted:

That is not what he is saying. He is making the argument that identity politics has mutated from fighting to all be part of one society, one social class, to a tribalistic form of aggression that prevents the former from happening.

This is very much a 'tone policing' argument, but there isn't anything necessarily wrong with that. If minorities, very understandably in a position of extreme anger due to the circumstances continually perpetuated on them, draw increasingly tribal 'us' and 'them' lines, even between would-be allies, then the sad fact is is that others will do the same. You can't hand wave that fact away by saying to white people 'they are acting in self defense, you don't have the right to act the same way', because humans aren't predictably rational like that.

Yeah it's poo poo and morally questionable, but it's why we are seeing an increasing backlash against legitimate social progress because the image of identity politics is becoming tarnished by some utterly false notion that it is a kind of moral gestapo.

E: his 'logical defense' against the KKK and such is: 'your ideology explicitly wants to divide people'. Gay people having equal rights doesn't seek to divide, it seeks to unify.

This has kinda been my opinion. identity politics isnt bad thing at all, As someone who has chronic physical disabilities, i know what its liked to get hosed over by people/environment/society. not as much as others sure. But i dont want some well off white guy telling me what i should consider ableist and whats not, or how i should be offended by tv or poo poo. because they sure as gently caress wont listen to me when the actual disabled person has real complaints like how about add automatic doors and fix sidewalks so they dont have massive loving pot holes in them. no that would be to loving hard "dapper" we should talk about how you are represented in the media or how about we build a room so you can cry after reading all the awful poo poo in your history class. I dont care about that poo poo, instead of that lets focus on that fact that i am hosed after my next birthday and have to find insurance that will pay for my needs. but no that would be to loving hard. people who focus on this poo poo are well intention but lazy. they think that if you just say the write words or cover up stuff then the problems will go away instead of actually trying to fix them. it depresses me.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2016 03:40

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

SlipUp posted:

Some people see the big picture, some people don't. The left constantly doesn't. Constantly grassroots leftist activism is co opted by every minor identity issue imaginable. Occupy wall street got tied up about pizza donation requirements and speakerphone privileges so the people who were there to protest economic inequality got tied down with having to go hungry for animal rights and silent for their privilege. BLM is supposed to be about systemic violence and is now tied up with anti capitalistic measures far removed from the actual issue to the point they believe picketing malls is an effective response or is part of the splinter protest against police militarization, which is a totally separate issue again.

Whether fighting for animal rights or against racism, capitalism, or the military industrial complex are good things are irrelevant if the fight doesn't actively contribute to furthering those goals and actively hinders other worthwhile attainable goals. If occupy had the solidarity of the tea party, maybe some executives would've gone to jail with a democratic party stacked with occupy sympathizers after an election when public anger was at an all time high against financial executives. (How those salary and bonus caps go after the election?)

Who's life was made substantially better by boycotting pepperoni pizza, or not shopping for a day? Did anybody they engage with walk away thinking "wow I learned a lot today" or did they walk away crying inside like those primary school kids who had to pretend to be jewish for a day and came away with nothing but: "It made me glad I'm not jewish". Or did it help a group of protesters with a legitimate grievance cynically feel better about an insurmountably racist system?

Of course, overwhelmingly when the average voter attempted to engage these movements found them to be incredibly hostile. Rightfully or not. Did making those movements exclusive help those movements?

Identity politics is all about what you like and not what you do. Hillary likes the BLM movement, vote Hillary! Here's the list of things Hillary is going to do for the BLM movement:

This is going to bite her hard in the general because Trump is a guy who will do things. We don't know what but even here people are convinced he's actually going to do real tangible things. Clinton was part of an obstructionist government, whether on the justified side or not. The "do" things part of her resume is incredibly soft with even her hardline half measures in Libya leaving the mess tougher to unravel than before. Hillary's most electable area is supposed to be her tough-style foreign policy experience and it looks like she's going to get destroyed by Trump's fairyland real talk and business acumen. (The Putin strategy, Mexican paid wall.)

So what did all this grandstanding about big issues like race and poverty in the name of a middling rightwing "centrist" who's sole intention is to sell out every single one of their core values to her top ten biggest donors actually do? It sure as gently caress isn't helping anything any of those people we are talking about. It got a lot of money and views for an establishment, one which even at best under Clinton would continue the slow economic and social regression we've seen under Bush and Obama. At worst get the US even more entangled in Syria and into dick waving contests with the Russians and the Iranians. Is that worth a shout out to the BLM in a state of the Union? Because that's the max you can expect from Hillary on this issue.

Protestors would be better served providing services to the community rather than engaging in "raising awareness" (For the cause and themselves.) online and IRL. Stop attempting to co opt movements with other movements in the name of justice. It's not justice, it's authoritarian ideological purity. Social morality has become bigger value than democracy. Democracy is supposed to being about finding a middle ground even with people you believe are wrong because you both support democracy. But now anything other than the pure unrestrained extremist lines is met with extremist rhetoric. Democracy ground to a halt. Two sides demonized each other so thoroughly in the culture war divided neatly into the two party system nothing could be done. Congressional approval rating is down to 9%, and it's everybody's fault.

Here we are, demonizing more people again. Only now everybody is demonized. It doesn't mean anything. Cruz said this, Christy did that, Rubio walks like this, and Ben Carson has to be this crazy. Everybody is racist, and maybe they really are, so now what? Is there a higher level of racism, is there super racists? Bernie's racist, Cruz and Rubio are racist, Hillary s racist, Trump is racist. "Don't vote for the racist" may as well mean "Don't vote." If every candidate is racist, than it doesn't really matter, a racist is going to be elected no matter what. Which brings us back to:

Hardly seems like a tough sell considering republican governers are falling all over themselves to do the same and it could easily be spun into a pro-protectionist policy to engage blue collar dixiecrat voters. (Terrorists want your jobs! The perfect political message for today's age.)

pretty much.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Mar 3, 2016 04:31

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

gradenko_2000 posted:

It's because Trump lets the mask slip and is bombastically offensive, and subsequently gets called out over it (albeit unsuccessfully), whereas Cruz and Rubio are spouting insidiously offensive poo poo and it all flies under the radar.

They're more detestable than Trump because of the phrase "well maybe Cruz should be the nominee (instead)" isn't one that should ever be uttered by anyone with the slightest bit of human compassion and empathy, and yet here we are because Trump decided to haul out the foghorn rather than the dogwhistle.

Like, I couldn't stand the early Republican debates because of Huckabee's theocratic horseshit, but the only reason the GOPe is attacking Trump is over their fear of their inability to win, rather than any genuine concern over their fellow human beings.

It's the same feeling you get in the PoliToons thread when some moderately liberal cartoonist gets bashed for, say, depicting George Bush as a monkey, while Lester and McCoy and Branco shove out explicitly hateful and racist poo poo everyday and nobody ever gives a gently caress.

Its because cruz and rubio believe the same awful poo poo trump does(with a few exceptions) but more so. Its why they dont attack trump on real isane he poo poo he says like making the troops commit war crimes and and throwing out everyone. its because they sorta of agree with him. no one can attack him on his awful poo poo or from the left.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2016 19:46

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

MaxxBot posted:

Trumpism is already the start of this shift basically, it shows that conservatives are moving on from gay marriage and abortion to a new anti-PC culture war. Here's an interesting article I read on this from a conservative perspective.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/18/pitchfork-trump/

yeah, this is probably/is the future of conservatism or at least american conservatism. shitheads like milo and trump have found the perfect vain to burrow into. outright religious bigotry has failed them so they try pick up on /pol/ and reddit for ideas.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 04:50

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Geostomp posted:

I would very much love to see the Republicans completely self-destruct this time, but I'm not sure if that will happen. Their voters seem to unite mostly in pure hatred of the "other", so assuming a democrat win in November, they'll likely latch on to any chance they have to oust the dreaded "liberal" liar woman. The establishment could win them back, but they'd have to escalate their intolerance and bullying to seem more appealing after Angry Dad Trump's wake passes. There will be a point of total rebellion before that, in which I'm expecting a good amount of extremism that could very well become organized and violent. Like the Bundy's, but possibly worse. They will still be courted, however, since the Republicans have seen how effective they can be as a voting block despite it all.

If the Democrats do win again, they'll likely face more opposition than ever in the House as the Tea Party types try even harder to prove that they are still relevant to the rebelling base.

I know many of my conservative relatives at least on my moms side arnt voting if trump/cruz wins the nom. none of them like Hilary or sanders either. so they prefer to stay home. I think many moderate conservatives will too.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 17:24

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

computer parts posted:

And that's the real wildcard factor in this election. If conservatives start staying home, bad things are going to happen for the GOP.

I think a decent amount of moderate conservatives are. trump is a nut and so is cruz. rubio is weak and hosed. they dont like hillary a ton of reasons and sanders is leftist who will raise the gently caress out of their taxes. every moderate conservative i know isnt voting.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 20:32

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

FuzzySkinner posted:

I think I'd rather have Trump as the nominee for the GOP at this point and I dislike saying that.

Reason? I'm paranoid that if a "Escape from LA" type scenario happens and Cruz is the nominee? We're hosed. Badly. Like...maybe even worse than under a Trump presidency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJpznMaZ85c

Cruz gives me some weird blind hatred of everything.

Oh i hate cruz too, but he is unelectable. He is an religious nut and a son of a bigger nut. he has said so much awful poo poo about gays and everyone else. he will get buried in it. Cruz is the last(for the immediate future) hurrah of of the religions right. but their day is almost done. its now turn for shitheads like trump and milo.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Mar 6, 2016

# ¿ Mar 6, 2016 02:17

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

FuzzySkinner posted:

Patton Oswalt ‏@pattonoswalt 2h2 hours ago
Ted Cruz is Hannibal Lecter. You CAN reason with him. Trump is Leatherface dancing with a chainsaw. Mindless. I'll take Lecter, I guess?

sighs

No. You. loving. Can't.

You cannot reason with Ted Cruz. He's a blind ideologue that refuses to compromise and believe's he ordained by God.

Ted policies on immigration and race are the loving exact same as Trump's.

The only difference is? Cruz is somehow WORSE than Trump on pretty much every other issue. Women's rights? LGBT rights? Foriegn Policy? Healthcare? Trade? Check, check and check. A million times worse.

I'm so sick of my fellow progressives finding cruz and rubio to somehow be better than Trump.

Sorry I don't mean to rant on this, but god loving damnit. I'm so tired of this line. I can at least be empathetic if someone was stumping for Kasich or something. But please stop saying that Ted Cruz is somehow better than Donald Trump.

I am surprised that even oswalt doesnt see that. Cruz is pretty much everything he hates.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2016 23:16

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

FuzzySkinner posted:

The protests last night had the exact opposite effect these people intended it to have.

Instead of shutting down Trump from speaking? They gave him an even bigger audience on cable TV. (Which he's already saturated the market on)

Instead of trying to encourage people to not vote for him in the primaries? They likely galvanized the right wing in this country to support him even more.

Instead of showing that trump supporter's are extremists? It showed various leftist groups as extremists. (Hammer and Sickle flag, etc).

He got to make a stump speech about how divided the country is, how it's sad people are struggling from day to day in this day and age...all while images of people fighting and angry protesters were flashed on screen. He couldn't have been more loving Nixon-like if he tried. Seriously that's a literal scene in Oliver Stone's movie about the man.

You seriously couldn't have PAID for a better campaign ad. Yet again, let me stress that on tuesday? It's super tuesday.

pretty much. the left shot itself in the foot again. sure it should have worked. but then you see a bunch of whiny looking hipsters screaming with a hammer and sinkle flag and scream about how ignorant poor whites need a bullet. they arnt getting the vote. then again i dont blame the protesters at all. trump is awful bigoted prick.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Mar 12, 2016

# ¿ Mar 12, 2016 20:35

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 23:54

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Ice Phisherman posted:

Thanks, buddy. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I'm glad to know I'm being read and not just pissing into the wind.

Oh, I actually agree with you here. I think that we're still up for years and years of disorganization, bad messages and authoritarian identity politics from the left. However I think that anyone with two brain cells to rub together realize that it isn't working. It just needs to filter down to the Social Justice foot soldiers that it isn't working either. Some will change. The electorate is awakening after all. They'll get older, moderate themselves with age, gain perspective and begin to realize that a total lack of discipline, no coherent message and no leaders doesn't work. It didn't change much during the occupy days, but leaders also couldn't be smeared or co-opted either if they didn't have any. Smart people are going to look back at OWS and learn.

this is also my hope. people will moderate out and hopefully keep the core of their views and some of their passion, without the dick headedness.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2016 17:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Right-Wing Populism: Why now?