EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

I'd like to see the headline "Greece minister forced to resign after accidentally calling Macedonia 'Macedonia'."

Doctor Malaver fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Mar 16, 2016

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 12:41

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 00:00

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

CommieGIR posted:

"Welp, guess we have to send them back to a despotic dictator. Sorry guys"

Do you have any clue how hosed up you sound?

Is Erdogan mistreating the refugees?

# ¿ Mar 30, 2016 19:59

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

waitwhatno posted:

A Georgian immigrant is willing to work for effectively 5 EUR per hour, for 10 hours per day, cleaning floors or delivering food to disabled old people. That's a job that would not exist without the Georgian person, because no European would ever, under any circumstances, do it. Natives and most immigrants do not compete for the same jobs.

On the contrary, a lot of Europeans who are also EU citizens (and I would imagine even more who aren't EU citizens) do in fact work for 5 EUR per hour or less. Did you mean to limit your statement to Germany?

# ¿ Jun 26, 2016 18:15

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

waitwhatno posted:

So, what's your argument then? That we should declare Spain a humanitarian disaster zone and offer Spaniards asylum? I'm not a lawyer, but I think it would be a pretty hard case to make. There hasn't even been a single cholera or black death outbreak in the last month in all of Spain!

He asked why would you invite "hordes of foreigners". You replied that nobody invited them. He quoted Refugees Welcome as a slogan that proves that the hordes were in fact invited.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2016 16:03

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Has the politics of accepting (or not accepting) refugees changed regarding developments in the Syrian war? In the last year or so SDF emerged as an organized and successful fighting force. It started as a proxy/cover for US to aid Kurds but it's been successfully accepting Arabs too. The point being, if two years ago it was Assad vs ISIL and there were no good guys to join, that might not be the case any more. I would assume at least some military-able refugees might reconsider returning to fight for their country.

waitwhatno posted:

Are you referring to last summer, when the Merkel government said that Germany will take in all Syrian refugees that apply for asylum? That statement was made when it became clear that the living conditions in the Arab/Turkish camps had become completely unlivable and an increase in fighting activity in Syria had caused a new wave of refugees that were heading for these camps. It was an enormous humanitarian catastrophe that would have turned towards Europe sooner or later. In no way or form was there ever any invitation for immigrants to come to Europe from any government that I know of.

I'm not referring to anything, I was just trying to fill in the missing link in the conversation between you and Riso.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2016 17:59

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Well they better come up quickly with something. The left is only gaining ground in gender and minority policies.

Jobs will be scarce as gold and we'll work endless hours for pittance. Ten corporations will rule the world with barely any middle class to bridge the gap between millionaires and the poor. But you'll be able to buy pot in supermarkets and non-binary couples will be able to adopt so it will even out. :downs:

# ¿ Jun 30, 2016 20:38

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

doverhog posted:

Nah, the masses will not work at all because there is nothing they can do a robot wont do better or at least cheaper. The the 0,01% can choose to either placate the masses with pot and VR porn, or set their robot armies to the task of genocide. That is our future unless the left wins.

My point was that this will be our future regardless of who wins, the left included. Unless they come up quickly with a different economic model.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2016 23:26

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Tesseraction, do you think it is possible to argue against mass immigration from Middle East and not be racist?

If it is, would you play the devil's advocate for a minute and show how such an argument would look like? Thanks.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 21:07

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Brainiac Five posted:

I suspect that the vagueness of this request foretells a certain level of disingenuity on your part.

Your attempt would also be welcome.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 21:15

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Tesseraction posted:

It may be possible but I've honestly yet to see a convincing one. Honestly I doubt I could play devil's advocate in such a situation because it would boil down to one of:

1) culture
2) economics
3) population (density)

Of which the latter two are tied, somewhat. I suppose I have to question whether any of the three are under crisis, or even are being affected at all.

OK, let's say that someone claims that culture and economics of the host country are threatened by the immigration wave. They could be wrong in two ways. One is that culture and economics are not in fact threatened, and the other is that it's irrelevant because saving refugees is more important than preserving culture and economics.

Would you agree with this?

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 21:23

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

What if citizens of Narva or some other town in the Baltic region with a large percentage of ethnic Russians voted for their region's independence? And then later voted to merge with Russia?

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 11:44

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

YF-23 posted:

If it is a legitimate statement of self-determination? Then it should be respected.

And how would you define 'legitimate'?

Let's imagine this situation... Narva's citizens express desire to hold a referendum. Estonian government refuses. They hold an unofficial referendum and say that the results are overwhelmingly in favor of Leave. Estonian government doesn't recognize it. Various polls and surveys confirm that the majority of citizens are in favor of Leave. So is it legitimate?

Somewhat related, do you feel the citizens of Northern Cyprus made a legitimate statement of self-determination?

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 12:10

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

YF-23 posted:

The Narva example you give would be legitimate, yes. The Estonian government in that case would be denying part of its population its legal rights by refusing them the ability to exercise their right to self-determination.

You should post this in the Eastern Europe thread. The reactions would be... interesting.

YF-23 posted:

I am unsure as to why you are bringing up North Cyprus given it's the result of a coup to unite the island to Greece and a military invasion by Turkey in response. In neither case did any of the people of Cyprus exercise their right to self-determination in a democratic manner. Unless you are referring to something more recent, in which case I'd like you to be more specific.

The ethnic composition of Narva is a result of an undemocratic process (planned relocation of Russians, original citizens couldn't return) in USSR some 60 years ago. The ethnic composition of North Cyprus is a result of an undemocratic process (military invasion) some 30 years ago. Where do you see the big difference?

Deltasquid posted:

Self-determination only exists, legally speaking, in a colonial context. Because the decolonization process is why the UN formulated it that way in its charter. It was not meant to apply to developed nations.

A good discussion of this can be seen in the Supreme Court of Canada's reference regarding the secession of Quebec. Obviously other countries are free to disagree with the SC's findings but it did go over international precedents and found that the arguments pro Quebecois self-determination are... Lacking. It's specifically question 2 addressed by the SC in its reference.

Thanks, this was interesting to read and it's something that I can get behind. I wonder how Catalunya's situation differs from Quebec's.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 15:32

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

YF-23 posted:

I don't know the explicit demographic history of Narva and the surrounding region, but for Northern Cyprus you are partially wrong. It wasn't as monolithic before the population exchange for sure, but there was a Turkish-Cypriot community before then. In either case it is far too late to change what happened 60 years ago. You cannot take back Stalinist relocations, you can't take back the Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus, and you certainly can't take back the 60 years of people being born, growing up, living and dying in those places.

The big difference, since you asked for it, is that you presented me with a hypothetical perfectly democratic procedure in Narva that would take place today, with the invasion of Cyprus. I would like to think there's a difference between those.

Yes but the invasion isn't happening now, is it? It is a past event just like the Soviet relocation was. As you say, people are being born, growing up, living and dying in Northern Cyprus. Those who were born after the invasion already have children. In ten years they'll have grandchildren. To adapt my previous question, imagine this situation:

The year is 2016. Unhappy with the status quo, the citizens of Northern Cyprus hold a referendum with two options. a) unite with Cyprus or b) unite with Turkey. Cypriot government condemns the referendum. The results are overwhelmingly in favor of Unite With Turkey and that's confirmed by various polls and surveys. Cypriot government doesn't recognize referendum results. Is this a legitimate demand by the people of Northern Cyprus?

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 20:43

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

YF-23 posted:

Yes.

I don't agree with you but I appreciate the consistency.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 23:18

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

icantfindaname posted:

Open borders to economic migrants and refugees of any kind. You could refuse people for pressing and extraordinary reasons like them being known criminals or disease control or whatever without being racist, but rejecting people for cultural reasons is racist, yes

Has there ever been a country, in any period of history, that allowed foreigners to come in in unlimited numbers, for indefinite time, regardless of their national/religious background and regardless of their motivation?

Doctor Malaver fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jul 30, 2016

# ¿ Jul 30, 2016 09:31

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Private Speech posted:

That they are not offered full-time education (even if they do receive some) is more because of people like Ligur, not because they or the society wouldn't benefit.

If there is economic benefit to accepting huge numbers of refugees - feeding them, providing housing, teaching them the language, educating them, giving them work permits - until they become independent from aid or return to home country (this will take years at least, possibly decades, and will never happen for many of them)... Why is there such a pushback from almost every country? Racism? That's all? From Cameron to Putin, from Saudi King to Erdogan - they are all wringing their hands looking at this valuable resource which would boost their economies. If only they could take in the refugees... But alas a portion of the population is racist so they can't. :effort:

Note that I'm not against accepting refugees for humanitarian reasons.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2016 19:04

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

CommieGIR posted:

It doesn't matter if they think they are the statistics don't actually support that they're not making arguments that natives are more valuable as an investment because they're xenophobic

You would help refugees more if you made an effort to write comprehensibly.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2016 15:28

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

DarkCrawler posted:

This idea that Europe should be absolved of hosting refugees because "Were just too rich and progressive!" is so hilarious that I can't believe people are saying that with straight faces.

That really does sound hilarious which is why nobody ever said it. You will now probably roll your eyes and say something like "you know what I mean" or "they didn't say or but they meant it" or whatever. I would suggest instead that you try arguing against actual positions, not against imaginary, hilarious ones.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 20:56

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

DarkCrawler posted:

"Our standard of living is too high for hosting refugees" and "Our culture is incompatible with the backwards culture of the refugees" are both things that have been said and are the exact same ridicolous things in more words. You're welcome to challenge that.

I would suggest you read and adress posts beyond the first sentence that triggers you but judging from this post I know it has a high likelihood of not happening.

Nobody argues that their standard of living is too high to accept refugees. You invent a quote and when you're called on it you try to shift the burden on proof on that person. That's not how it works. It's up to you to prove that people are saying that, it's not up to me to prove that they aren't. You can't prove a negative.

The rest of your post did have valid points but yes the bullshit opening did trigger me. If you don't want people to focus on bullshit part of your posts then don't have bullshit parts.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2016 23:14

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Zudgemund put it well:

Zudgemud posted:

In Europe I feel like it is more because the examples are often so country specific and it differs so much between countries. I doubt for example that an average Finlander can easily relate to any colonial heritage of France or that Joe Albanian care much about the grazing rights for Sami reindeers in Norway. Because for the last three centuries these countries had as much to do with each other as Austria and the US, or the US and Tibet, which is basically nothing. Their taught history and social classes in school likely focus on their own nation and possibly directly surrounding nations, local media likely does the same and they know not a lick of each others language. Yet these sort of examples are brought up as some example of pan European racism/structural discrimination while they are all extremely local examples not shared between more than a handful of countries. It is not like there is not structural discrimination all over Europe, it is just that it varies heavily in form and cause/historical background (except for Roma, everyone hates the Roma).

Generally speaking, if you show something racist in European country A and use it to say "Europe's racist" then somebody from European country B will be offended and will object. BUT if you make a separate claim that country B is racist, they won't object. So it's not racism denial as much as not wanting to be linked with other countries' poo poo.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2016 17:22

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Private Speech posted:

Well no, but saying that we need to close all the borders, batten down the hatches, etc. because of terrorist attacks, that have so far pretty much entirely been perpetrated by people who are not in fact refugees, is a hysterical reaction at best.

It's pretty much the same as Trump saying that "Mexicans are rapists, thieves ... and some I assume are good people!" and using that as argument to cut off any immigration from Mexico into the US. There's literally zero reason whatsoever (beyond "common sense") to think that ISIS and other assorted loons would find it harder to perpetrate attacks if the borders were closed, given that they haven't really even used the fact that the borders are open right now in any of their attacks so far.

I mean I'm sure it would marginally inconvenience them, but probably much less than millions of other people.

And yeah I know it's stupid strawman but I can't help myself, and I've heard that same sort of poo poo said earnestly in person before.

Brussels and Paris attacks were perpetrated in large part by people who had been fighting in Syria. They had to return somehow and it is safe to assume that open borders made it easier for them. Also the Ansbach bombing was perpetrated by a refugee from Syria.

I'm not advocating for closing the borders for refugees, I'm just pointing out how bullshit your claim is that there's "literally zero reason whatsoever" to think that open borders help ISIS operate.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 11:01

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

drilldo squirt posted:

Sure Europeans ban swimwear indicative to minority groups but honestly, how dare you bring that up while America still has racial issues. -Europeans

Doctor Malaver posted:

Generally speaking, if you show something racist in European country A and use it to say "Europe's racist" then somebody from European country B will be offended and will object. BUT if you make a separate claim that country B is racist, they won't object. So it's not racism denial as much as not wanting to be linked with other countries' poo poo.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 20:34

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Here's a handy tip. Whenever you want to say "Europeans are...", imagine that you are saying "Black people are..." or "Muslims are..."

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 20:59

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Somewhat paradoxically, I see some parallels between how society sees women who wear burquas and prostitutes.

Society - "It should be illegal. It's demeaning to women and treats them as objects that men can own. No little girl ever wished to (be a prostitute / go around in a mini-tent)"
Woman* - "Go to hell, this is my choice"

* - not every woman

# ¿ Aug 12, 2016 22:38

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

drilldo squirt posted:

Sinteres the things you posted make it hard to believe that.

drilldo squirt posted:

Sinteres it's not your fault you have an irrational hatred of Muslims, it's something to do with brain chemistry. Maybe try and better yourself instead of wallowing in it however.

drilldo squirt posted:

You're wrong sinteres, about everything. Also you are a racist. We can probably throw stupid on to that list also.

drilldo squirt posted:

Watch as sinteres exposed as a virulent racist and rightfuly embarrassed about it turns to insults as his arguments are made irrelevant.

drilldo squirt posted:

So I'm glad we established that sinterest doesn't actually care about feminism as he has posted no arguments against what I posted.

Just buy him a red title or go stalking him IRL or whatever just gently caress off

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Aug 13, 2016 01:17

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Fados posted:

Should Ramstein shows be banned because they use nazi symbols?

They do? Do you have any pictures to support that?

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 09:47

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Fados posted:

https://vimeo.com/175326866

I didn't see a single nazi symbol in this video.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 14:11

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

I found this great Spitting Images 1987 remake of Tomorrow belongs to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIAna459sg

Can a sufficiently old British goon explain the characters and background in this? I wonder how relevant it is today.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2016 17:11

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

What!? "I'm a Portugese in Netherlands afraid of fascism"

What are you precisely afraid of? Dutch fascist gangs attacking expats? Netherlands exiting EU to form a fascist state? Foreign fascists occupying Netherlands?

I'm surprised such a silly/paranoid concern received so many responses.

# ¿ Aug 24, 2016 14:13

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Private Speech posted:

Ehh it's possible that he's faced some abuse recently. I have anyway, and the Netherlands can be fairly hostile to EU migrants as well. Even if not as much as the UK.

I lived in Amsterdam for 6 months and talked a lot with Eastern European expats and never heard about a single problem from any of them. It's probably the best/safest European country to emigrate to, next to Iceland. If you get to the point that fascist gangs roam the streets of Amsterdam and Den Hague, then the rest of the Europe would have already been turned into a Mad Max wasteland long before.

# ¿ Aug 24, 2016 16:22

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

What about it?

# ¿ Aug 24, 2016 16:33

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

LemonDrizzle posted:

It's not either/or, both factors are important.

And so are cultural.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2016 13:25

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Zudgemud posted:

Yes there are vids of those guys somewhat dangerously throwing foliage on the road to slow down truckers enough to get onboard, I don't think they fake that etc. What I won't trust is the frequency of those events and I will keep being sceptic until some more reliable news report on it.

If these scenes to you look somewhat dangerous, I wonder what it would take to escalate to just dangerous.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2016 15:58

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Cat Mattress posted:

That's debatable. All empires have committed atrocities, and I wouldn't discount Britain's organized famines, invention of concentration camps, and deliberate use of smallpox as a biological weapon, among other examples.

I thought the Dutch invented concentration camps in South Africa...

# ¿ Sep 23, 2016 18:40

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

D&D made quite a turn.

2015
lone poster: "Some people are concerned with the number of refugees and immigrants pouring in..."
thread: "You support killing of children! And would you prefer to put those refugees in camps?! You know who else killed children and made concentration camps?"

2016
lone poster: "I'm not even asking for radical change, just be a bit nicer that's all. Take more immigrants, give more support to prospective students, that sort of thing."
thread: "You want people to give all their money to random strangers?! Sell your computer and whatever other property you may own!"

# ¿ Oct 2, 2016 08:58

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Private Speech posted:

We examine the effect of immigration on the happiness of natives using panel data from Germany.
� Immigration is found to increase happiness in the region.

They better run some new studies...

# ¿ Oct 2, 2016 19:21

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Toplowtech posted:

It still reached 95% of "gently caress migrants" out of 45%, still at least the abstention strategy worked, if it hadn't it would have been a really really really bad news. Orban also promised he would quit if he lost but that's not going to happen and i have a hard time seeing the whole thing as a victory for democracy.

It wouldn't be good but it wouldn't be that horrible either because even if successful the referendum wouldn't have legal repercussion.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2016 20:01

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Basically you're investing in immigrants not to get a return from them but from their children one day.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2016 09:31

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 00:00

Doctor Malaver: May 23, 2007; Ce qui s'est pass� t'a rendu plus fort

Christmas is obviously a day tied to Christianity and some people work on Christmas too so how is it different from Sundays? Abolish the holiday and instead grant everyone 1 day-off token.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2016 00:48

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

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