|
Just say that it depends on the benefits package and with the benefits they presented you need at least <new number within their budget>
|
#
¿
May 7, 2019 19:59
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 15, 2024 05:48 |
|
|
Casual Yogurt posted:I applied and interviewed for a specialist role, I got a call today from the hiring manager and she offered an administrative role "just below" this specialist role with the opportunity to move into the specialist role within "months" pending they approve of the work I do. The pay they offered is basically the same as I make now and probably slightly less as I would be losing my public transit subsidy. I'm not sure if I should negotiate to just cover what the loss of that subsidy would be or to try to negotiate for the title and compensation for the job if I originally applied for. Their rationale for offering me a lower position was that I've been out of that specific business for two years and their company is more unique and niche than where I was before. This is bait and switch 101. For me it’s a big red flag and I wouldn’t be able to trust the company enough to take a job there. You could try and negotiate a better deal and set your goal for whatever you see fit. If you get it, quit your job and see what the new company is like. If their hiring practise is as bad as their daily operations you can start looking for something new. If they don’t budge you at least have had some practise negotiating which is always useful. Whatever you do though, do not accept lower benefits/pay than you have now.
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2019 06:57
|
|
|
However much this bait and switch sucks, keep in mind you are dodging a major bullet here. Imagine how you’d feel working your rear end off for a year and get completely boned on all false promises made with regards to performance management. That’s 10x worse then this. Now you got aome interview and negotiation practise. So go do it again. Until you find something you do like, a company that’ll gladly and get paid properly. Don’t accept less (unless you are literally homeless).
|
|
#
¿
May 31, 2019 22:01
|
|
|
SA Forums Poster posted:What do I do in this situation? Tell them absolute same thing: “I expect them to be negotiable as it depends on the whole package, salary, bonuses, pto, health insurance, etc”.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 28, 2019 13:22
|
|
|
You could also keeo it generic saying that you know the department and company are doing great and that should be reflected in salary as it’s because of how well you and your coworkers do your jobs.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 17, 2019 09:24
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:Pretty sure he means 800 per week = 40,000 per year. It works exactly the same way over here. Switch company; make bank.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 8, 2019 16:04
|
|
|
Succes story: my wife got told that her employer decided to move the office which meant a 300% increase in commute time. She decided to start looking for a new job immediately. A company she interviewed at before but didn’t agree to her salary demands a few months ago reached out again and she anchored above the number that was declined previously and saying she wasn’t interviewing again unless they were able to make it work. After 2 rounds of interviews they decided to offer her a 20% higher salary and overall better benefits (company car for private use, more training budget and ability to visit multiple conferences). She’d lose 2 vacation days though. She was ready to accept but I told her to at least ask for extra vacation days and/or compensation. They were (or acted) really reluctant and said they had to get CEO approval, but added 5% more salary to make up for the vacation days. Only thing she had to do was ask. Where she was paid market value previously, she now made a pretty nice leap in both salary as well as benefits.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 13, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:Homeboy, I don't know anything about you, but I think you outkicked your coverage. You have a real winner there. I'm fully aware of that. We had a lot of discussion (based on this threads knowledge) on how to approach the company this time and she played the game perfectly. She didn't have a great BATNA now since she wanted to leave her old company, but the new company didn't know that. They only knew that she was willing to walk away if the offer wasn't good enough as she did exactly that the last time they were negotiating.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 14, 2019 16:27
|
|
|
If he pushes for a number you can first ask him what their salary range is for the position. When you feel like you absolutely have to name a number, pick the highest number you're comfortable asking and add 10-20% on top of it. In your case you could tell him you'd immediately accept for 150k. If he balks at that tell him to make you an offer.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 15, 2019 09:07
|
|
|
StonedogJones posted:So all the posts are about negotiating pay raises etc. I'm in a position where as strange as it seems, i am looking for the opposite. Don't tell them what you make, just keep saying that if they pay market rate you can work something out or that you'll evaluate the complete package and aren't focussing on salary alone. Let them make the first offer. Also, have a look at an AWS or Azure entry level certificate. It'll do wonders for your skillset. On udemy.com you can find ones from A Cloud Guru or Linux Academy that are realllly good for only 15-20 bucks. Certs are 150ish too and even with no knowledge whatsoever up front you probably only need 2-3 months to get ready. If you get it you probably don't even have to take a paycut.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 16, 2019 15:29
|
|
|
BadSamaritan posted:Turns out it’s worth changing for and my current employer will likely not be able/willing to compete. Usually when companies dangle a "huge increase in x years" in front of you, you're better off switching jobs to get an even bigger increase. There are of course exceptions to this.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 8, 2020 09:33
|
|
|
Vogelspinne posted:Hi Goons, I could use some advice. I think your analysis is pretty spot on. There is no initial harm in asking, they could say no and still get your UX/UI designer services for cheap. The only downside to this is that they might see you as a flight risk and start looking to replace you. The chance of this happening is something you are more likely to assess properly than any of us can. It's probably a mix between company policy, your relationship with your manager and the likeliness of him/her thinking you're actually going to leave. When brought up in a normal way I wouldn't expect your manager to immediately flag you as a flight risk. Especially if you can convincingly say you understand that in the current environment there's no room for payraises and you can wait until things are a bit more stable. It's always best to have something lined up when asking/demanding changes to your employment agreement simply because you can say "ok, I'll quit" and actually follow through with it. The standard advice of the thread is to switch jobs anyways, because even if they give in to your raise, they might only do this to buy time to hire/train a replacement for you. Same reason why you shouldn't take a counter offer when quitting. More often than not, the payraise from switching jobs is a lot higher than the one you'd get for staying at your current company. With the whole COVID situation going on I can imagine people would rather play it safe. So what's best for you kind of also depends on how happy you are with your current company and how easy it'd be for you to get new employment if they do decide to get rid of you unexpectedly. If your relationship with your manager is ok, I'd bring it up and see how he responds. For them finding and training someone (as underpaid as you are) to take over is probably more difficult than keeping you on board. If your manager acts weird about, start sending out resumes and interviewing as soon as the meeting ends.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 6, 2020 11:44
|
|
|
Barudak posted:A family member just got a job in china and as I learned, apparently companies don't just ask for your salary goal, they ask for bank statements to prove your current salary. I’ve had a company ask that once too. Either bank statement or a pay slip not older than 6 months. They said it was so they could make me a tailor made offer. Obviously I refused. Did take the job because the hiring manager hosed up negotiating. He had 2 offers (initial and final) and accidentily started with the final offer.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 18, 2020 13:18
|
|
|
Guinness posted:The real thing that fucks you long term is getting mis-leveled as an incoming hire, because it will take you years to get that promo internally rather than as a new hire. This is the case for lots of enterprises. It’s extremely worthwile to get information about this during an interview. Ask how many roles in your team are toed to specific levels and if what requirements need to be met to move up a level. A financial institution I once worked for deliberately tried to put new hires one level below their actual skills and then made it virtually impossible to move into a higher level role. Luckily I was aware of this and told them I’d not join unless I got a role for the level I wanted. All my coworkers didn’t know this when being hired and all got placed 1-2 levels below me. Pretty nasty behaviour but almost everyone accepted the situation due to the pay being above market rate for most of them.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 19, 2020 22:52
|
|
|
Chalets the Baka posted:Welp in a sudden turn of events, they bumped me up to $90,000. With the benefits adjustment, it looks like I can continue to max out my retirement contributions and end up with more take-home pay at the same time - so I'm now coming out better than at my current gig. Congratulations, really happy for you to get out of such a lovely environment while improving your pay as well. Thread delivers once again!
|
|
#
¿
Oct 22, 2020 13:13
|
|
|
The threads strategy paid off again for me. So happy I stumbled into this thread years ago. In my earlier years I had no idea how to negotiate and after practicing on several interviews, this time things lined up perfectly. I did name a number first this time. It’s because I knew the market rate and company pay range as the guy in charge of it is an old coworker I know well and fully trust to be honest. The company had no idea what I am currently making so the information advantage was on my side. I also nailed all the interview rounds getting feedback saying they absolutely loved to get me on board. I was pretty confident I was their first choice as they rushed the last rounds of interviews to make sure I could give notice before the end of the month (which is custom in some Euro countries) Purposely anchored above their range which would’ve been a 30% increase in pay. If I let them make the first offer it’d be inside the range, probably somewhere in the middle. They countered with a number that’d be a 20% raise which I would’ve taken regardless if they could go higher or not. With the “always negotiate” mantra of the thread in mind I told them I’d accept if they could make it 25% which was slightly above the top of their pay range for the role. They came back with the top of the range saying it was the best they could do. I took their offer which means a 24% raise. I’m now looking forward to start with them in an extremely challenging role a bit out of my comfort zone while getting paid more than I ever imagined earning. Thanks Neg Thread.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 1, 2020 22:33
|
|
|
My last exit interview was done by the HR Director. He tried to threaten me to sign a non compete for the roughly 250 companies they do busines with. I told him the non compete in my employment contract was the one that I signed and that stated only the customer I worked for and/or interacted with on behalf of employer were subject to the non compete. He asked me to sign the exit interview papers (which included the new non compete) which I refused. This was at the very end of the exit interview which was a completely normal discussion. I told him the reasons which made me leave and he acknowledged some of the issues and explained how they are working on resolving the others. The ending caught me completely by surprise. My team lead at that company and I go way back so when he was briefed about the outcome of my exit interview gave me a call. HR Director had completely lied about everything I said to the rest of the management team (including team lead). Apparently he took my reasons personal as most of my reasons came from the merger he was responsible for so he made up a lot of BS. Team lead knew that and gave me the heads up on what was relayed to the company. He also mentioned that HR Director tried to bully everyone who left into signing that non compete and that he knows of several people who signed it and then got sued for breaking it. Incredibly lovely thing to do and I’m glad I was aware of the poo poo he was trying to pull there. I certainly am not doing exit interviews anymore and that team lead is the only reference I’ll ever list for that role.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 13, 2020 19:58
|
|
|
This can vary from country to country though. Where I live there's plenty of court cases where non competes held up in court for IC's. They had to be reasonable though, which more or less means it's only valid for companies you directly interacted with and/or direct competitors in a limited distance of your currenct company (usually for brick & mortar stores). Still the thought of a lawsuit against you is a lot more threatening for an individual who's not familiar with non competes, which is probably what companies aim for anyway. Most of them know they won't win in court and won't let it come to that when push comes to shove. If only 1 in 10 does adhere to it, it's still an easy win for them.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 14, 2020 09:36
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you leave without a job lined up you've probably been fired or been told you will be fired and are therefore probably someone I don't like or am uninterested in professionally. Are you seriously saying that you are not interested in anyone that got fired unexpectantly? 
|
|
#
¿
Dec 17, 2020 06:39
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:This is discussion about people leaving a specific job, not the general population. I have no issue with people in general who got fired unexpectedly, but If you get fired from my firm it's for a consistent, documented track record of poor performance, full stop, and therefore I only care about where you end up in the specific context of "let me make it so I never have to interact with you again" I didn't read that you only meant at your current employer, but that can make sense. As a blanket statement it'd be pretty weird as I've seen bad managers fire a plenty of decent people for BS or no reasons at all.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 17, 2020 14:12
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:
Don’t sell yourself short. (It’s a horrible negotiation tactic.  )Plenty of great and accurate advice. Might come across as a bit harsh to first time thread visitors when it’s not the anwser they were hoping for, but always fair.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 12, 2021 21:37
|
|
|
shadow puppet of a posted:real talk I needed a job and have a resume that resembles swiss cheese so in my last interview they asked about salary and I said anything in the posted range is fine because I want to work for their company and you know what they did? This however has nothing to do with negotiating and should not be used as an advice. Sure it can work, just as you could win hit the jackpot in a casino. It's just not very likely.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 1, 2021 11:45
|
|
|
Guinness posted:When I briefly had to deal with invoicing as a consultant, the customers with $50k invoices never complained and paid right away. The customers with $5k invoices were enormous shitheels about it and I never want to work with them again. Same experience here. Larger clients recognize the value they are getting from the deal, the ROI of the money they are spending and that it's an investment in the future. SMB usually just see a large number and want to squeeze out every little cent they pay. As for negotiation on my hourly rate. My rate is 10-15% above what I'd consider minimum and I'd only lower it if there's something in it for me. Like new technology I'd be hardpressed to get experience with somewhere else, (almost) guaranteed return business or a client with a great name that will vastly improve my resume and results in bigger/better opportunities in the future.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 11, 2021 13:27
|
|
|
Take a few weeks of unpaid leave, come back for the final day (which you take off at the new job). Or if old job is remote, don’t quit and just phone it in while focussing on your new job.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 18, 2021 00:23
|
|
|
BonHair posted:I just learned of this thread yesterday, and I've been to busy to read more than first and last pages. So sorry about asking stuff that's been answered a bunch before. I’ve been in a situation like this in the past a few times. By the sound of it you’re a SME with regards to his core business. This means he’ll be likely to get a nice rate straight out of the gate when you start working for him with no ot only a small ramp up period. This is pretty important for small companies. InfoSec is firld with scarce resources, finding someone that fits the needs of a niche (and is willing to switch jobs) is going to be rven more difficult. Assuming you interview well, he’ll likely ask you to join. As per thread advice, don’t say a number. In my experience I’ve dealt with 2 types of people in this situation. The people who value your knowledge/skills and try to apropriately compensate you and the penny pinchers. If the guy throws out lowball numbers during your conversation you’re probably be dealing with the latter. I had it happen once, after the CEO of a small consultancy company asked me to come over to discuss if I wanted to work for them. In the second interview the hiring manager said they wouldn’t be able to offer more than X, which was 10% less than I was making in public sector. I told them that I’d be losing salary if I’d accept that number and they downtalked my resume as a reason why it wouldn’t be profitable for them to pay me more. I reminded them I was perfectly happy with my job and only came to talk to them because their CEO asked me to come interview with them. I told them I wouldn’t be entertaining any offers and thanked them for their time. I had 2 other interviews in the same niche market, direct competitors of eachother (which I also told all 3 companies). After walking out I got 7 or 8 calls from their CEO in the next week as well as 3 calls from their COO (whom I worked with on a project before and who apparently recommended me to the CEO). Suddenly my resume wasn’t poo poo anymore and salary could easily be increased by 15-20%. I declined politely but their behaviour was such a red flag I couldn’t imagine what they’d do to employees if this was their best behaviour trying to get a potential employee to start working for them. Be prepared to walk away, don’t make yourself think this is your 1 shot to glory. There will be more opportunities so if this doesn’t feel right, pass on the offer. That said, there also companies that realize your value and make you a decent offer. Make sure you do market research on your position/experience salary because if you like this job and you want to stay there for a long time, this is likely your only good chance at negotiating. Taking 1000DKK less now, means you’ll be losing a multitude of it over the years. Whatever you do, don’t name a number. Deflect saying you’d need to review the whole package and you’ll get back to them. If he does pressure you, name a number substantially higher than the 40k you are aiming for (48-50k is probably what I’d do based on the numbers you gave). Keep in mind consultancy can be very different from public sector though. Not sure what amount of travel is involved but adding a daily 1.5hr of commute can be pretty draining. Always evaluate the whole package.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 22, 2021 08:03
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Please make sure you completely understand the duties and requirements. Consulting is a very broad umbrella. Transitioning from a collectively bargained public sector job to a consulting could be quite jarring, depending on what that consulting looks like. Since you are the product, it's going to be challenging to adhere to a 37 hour workweek. In the EU this might not be as big of a problem. Lots of Govnerment/Financial industries have sub 40 hour work weeks ib my country. I’ve had a 36 hour workweek for over a decade as a consultant. Some companies didn’t even allow contractors to be hired for 40 hours a week. The latter was a pain in the rear end for some contractors as their companies made them take a 10% paycut or ordered them to be in the office for the remaining 4 hours a week. Decent companies calculated this into their hourly rate and let it be.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 22, 2021 14:01
|
|
|
Not naming a number against experienced negotiatora while your inexperienced yourself can be incredibly difficult. You tried and did the bext best thing (anchoring high). Next time you negotiate, it’ll be easier. That said, you can still negotiate as you don’t have an offer in hand. You can still tell them you want 50k DKK and pension/bonus/etc on top of it. You anwsered the question about what you want to make, that did not include the whole package. When you get informed about the whole package, you can value that, and still say you need 50k. Whatever you do, do NOT sign anything in that meeting. Some folks (mostly recruiters) try to get you to sign on the spot. Take it home, review it, talk it over with your SO/relatives/friends/SA neg thread and get back to them with a counter offer. Unless they match your “gently caress off number”, you take it and realize you won. And realize you might even anchor higher next time
|
|
#
¿
Feb 22, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
paradoxGentleman posted:I've read the OP with great attention, and I greatly appreciate this information. I do, however, have a couple of questions. Common advice here is to fill in 0 or 1. If this results in not getting an interview, it's probably a lovely company to work for. They can still ask you in an in person interview (and you should still not disclose that information then either).
|
|
#
¿
Feb 24, 2021 14:08
|
|
|
BonHair posted:Final update: I landed on 47.000 dkk per month all inclusive, which is slightly higher than the average for my educational background and year of graduation, which in turn is more than my messy career trajectory would imply. It was really helpful with you guys, and also having the union help me look up averages and look over the kinks in the contract. I maintained IP rights to stuff I do outside of work on that account. I got offered 45, pointed out that the average is 46 and asked if he considered me below average in a slightly joking way. This was apparently the right move and I got more than I expected or hoped for really. And this was after agreeing that I might not be working 100% the first month since I'm recovering from stress. Congrats on your new job.  Awesome to see that while you were ok with settling with (anything?) over 40k, you managed to get an offer 17.5% above your target. If you would've anchored on 40k (instead of naming a very high number when he pressed you for it), your offer would've likely been somewhere between 37.5-40k. And to top it off, it sounds like a nice company as well! I can see only wins here, well done.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2021 09:32
|
|
|
Barudak posted:A family member got a job offer below current salary and told them off, saying that it was below what they made and they expected a significant pay raise for the role. 6 months later the company calls back wanting to know if they're still interested in the job at the same previously offered rate. I’d probably counter by asking the recruiter if he was interested in washing my car for $5 every week.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 7, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Chaotic Flame posted:Doesn't everyone fantasize about the shock/dismay their leaving is going to cause though? Especially if you don't like your boss. Only once in an environment that was really toxic. As much as if saddens me, me leaving didn’t change a thing. Although after a year or so 2 people got terminated and 3 left after which they disbanded the whole team. It’s a great reminder that everyone is replacable no matter how much you think you’re not. After that I’ve always hoped my coworkers won’t be inconvenienced too much by me leaving. That never plays a role in making the decision though.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 10, 2021 01:16
|
|
|
bamhand posted:However, I did find out that they did not give him any benefit details and said he'll find that out during orientation. That sounds absolutely insane to me. The company is British, is that normal for a a European company? No, this is not normal in the EU and I'd be incredibly wary for companies who don't try to spin their dime a dozen benefits as "we have a great / market rate secondary benefits package".
|
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:IT consulting is hardly consulting Everything below senior is just making powerpoints with 20 other juniors
|
|
#
¿
Mar 23, 2021 20:41
|
|
|
stellers bae posted:Oh hey, so that digital agency that was offering me $130k, I countered at $160k, and then strung me along for two weeks and gave me a decline afterwards? If the VP of an industry leading company thinks you’re worth 154k a year to them you have to trust their judgment on it. They know what they’re doing and determined that out of all candidates you were the best fit. You got this.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
If it takes months to hire someone it seems it’d be unlikely for them to pull the offer after giving you the feedback that everyone wants you onboard. If you didn’t name a number before and think 100k is reasonable, by all means ask for that (or 110k so you actually get 100k as an offer).
|
|
#
¿
Apr 13, 2021 14:26
|
|
|
hobbez posted:She did, however, say HR would handle discussing compensation after I accept the offer. This is of course total BS. You don’t buy a car and hear the price after you agree to buy it.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
You may see this as how the market works but your employer will see this as “not a teamplayer”, “not loyal” and as Dik Hz said: “flight risk”.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
My wife got out of an exceptionally bad job and was willing to take virtually anything to just get out of there. After interviewing at 2 companies where she didn't get an offer she had aced all her interviews in the last one. She liked the company, her new role and the pay was better than she expected it to be. I gave her the same advice as this thread is giving everyone. Say that you're excited about the role/company and that you'd be willing to join if they can bump up the pay by x. She was also worried about rocking the boat and never negotiated about any job in the past (and hadn't been interviewing for ages). In the end she decided, what the hell, if I don't get the increase I'll still be happy so why not give it a shot. The company went out of their way to accommodate her request and (had to?) put her in a pay grade 1 level higher than what they were hiring for. This also resulted in several additional benefits that increased significantly. She was incredibly happy with the pay increase and for her it also showed the company appreciated her as a person as well as the skills she was bringing aboard. Just ask, nobody gets punished for negotiating (except if a company is evil and then they're doing you a favor by letting you know before taking the job).
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2021 10:18
|
|
|
jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. absolutely amazing, congrats on getting paid even better and becoming more comfortable negotiating!
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2021 15:00
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 15, 2024 05:48 |
|
|
Xguard86 posted:
This is extremely true. You're only one bad manager away from (looking for) your next job.
|
|
#
¿
May 19, 2021 08:34
|
|