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They're still going out of their way to make Naze basically the nicest and most flawless dude in the universe. I didn't expect them to tear him down or anything, but him discovering that his association with Tekkadan has served as a weak point that has destroyed his entire life's work and will likely kill everyone he loves and has spent his life trying to protect and then accepting it without any complaint or even any negative emotional response is a little disconcerting. That and the wives and daughters line, yikes.
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Jan 15, 2017 22:34
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Lemon-Lime posted:He's actually protecting the rest of the Turbines by running away, since anyone not on the Hammerhead can just declare ignorance of the situation and probably find a different job with Teiwaz. Given that we've been shown ample evidence that Jasley and the other Teiwaz bosses think of women as pieces of rear end and this entire episode was about how all the women in Teiwaz grouped together because they were being treated as fifth-class citizens used as disposable chattel because it was the only work they could find, the loss of the Turbines organization is basically a disaster for everyone in it.
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Jan 16, 2017 01:53
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Midjack posted:Ever talked to an escaped trafficking victim? Some of them would argue that point. Teiwaz writ large sounds like they'd turn them into sex slaves or Human Debris. Beaten by this. The remnants of the Turbines organization will quite possibly be in an even worse position than they were prior to Naze picking them up in the first place because now the remnants of their organization will be picked over by a bunch of actively competing predators in the various Teiwaz bosses picking up the pieces rather than simply being ignored and exploited like they were before. It's also a pretty neat way to further reinforce how bad it is that Tekkadan has become utterly top-heavy(as shown on screen by the Earth arc). The Turbines are the closest organization to Tekkadan we've seen in origin and basic organizational model(one able and charismatic leader with a strong ally liberating and empowering a group of slave workers into a family-esque organization), so it's really easy to draw parallels between the impending collapse of the Turbines and what would happen to Tekkadan almost immediately if anything happened to Orga. Kanos fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jan 16, 2017 |
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Jan 16, 2017 17:06
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Adel posted:Speaking of, Jesus loving Christ, Iok The dude deployed illegal superweapons for the noble task of arresting an accused criminal(who was framed for possession of those very same superweapons), repeatedly and willfully ignored the accused's attempt to surrender peacefully in favor of opting to use those illegal superweapons to attempt to mow down fleeing civilians en masse, and then ordered those illegal superweapons to fire on an enemy with his own troops in the line of fire to preserve his own life(which was only in danger because he was an arrogant moron). Iok cleared the bar for war criminal and kept running until it was a distant memory in the distance here. That said, I am incredibly amused at how no matter how stupid and blind Iok manages to be they keep finding ways for him to dig himself deeper. It's actually amazing and I'm wondering how he'll top himself this time. Deploy a nuclear weapon against the Tekkadan orphanage? Nerve gas Chryse?
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Jan 22, 2017 23:16
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I honestly don't think he fully understands just how horrible his actions were, but that kinda makes it worse. How is he getting dumber?? He's such a well written character but I just want to Bright slap some sense into him, he is the most frustration character I've encountered in a long time. I think he might be beyond redemption, though having the control bridge nearly taken out could either a) shake some idiocy out him (unlikely) or b) cause him to quadruple down on his current path (probably this). I'm already getting pre-pissed at him for next week's episode.
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You used what? On escape pods? WITH WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THEM? *The sounds of Iok being strangled to death as Julietta eats some form of insect* Based on what we've seen of him, Rustal would probably be more angry about how horribly bungled the operation was rather than the actual content thereof. Iok took an entire Arianhrod battle fleet up against one assault ship, a couple of unarmed transports, and a handful of mobile suits and got a shitload of his own MS and an entire battleship destroyed despite deploying illegal superweapons and the Turbines entirely ceding the initiative in the battle by attempting to surrender multiple times rather than actively fighting back. That's fairly far over the line from "naive" to "dangerously incompetent".
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Jan 23, 2017 11:36
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MonsterEnvy posted:I do dislike Jasley more then Iok. Jasley is a huge rear end in a top hat who is nevertheless doing his rear end in a top hat things with clear goals in mind. They're selfish, shitheaded goals, but he has a purpose and a plan that this is all in service to. Iok is an idiot manchild who is endowed with incredible influence and power by dint of his birth but doesn't actually grasp the consequences of anything he does. He feels incredibly distraught by the deaths of his men and views it as a touchstone moment in his life but is too stupid to empathize with other people suffering the same thing to the point where he literally orders the murder of surrendering opponents and unarmed fleeing civilians because he has the moron idea in his head that he needs to appear "ruthless" to his boss and this need supercedes peoples' lives. I dislike Iok a lot more because Iok has the power, influence, and potential to actually live up to the noble ideals he claims to espouse but he's too damned stupid and short-sighted to do so.
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Jan 29, 2017 22:52
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ImpAtom posted:I find both Iok and the Teiwaz dude to be cartoonish villains so YMMV. Iok is probably the closest in that he's completely incompetent in an understandable way but he's still staggeringly incompetent and bad at everything he does and does ridiculously excessively evil things almost entirely to drive the plot. On the other hand Jasley is second only to the Brewers for feeling like he could have walked in from One Piece or something. Of the two Iok is the way better character by far, mind you. I think Jasley was a really important addition to the show, to be honest. From the word go on this series we've had it hammered into us that this setting loving sucks to live in. Human lives are literally treated as garbage("human debris") that are bought and sold for peanuts and significant segments of the population live as slaves for their entire short lifespan. It's a setting where it's considered kosher for a merc company to jab needles full of nanomachines into children to either turn them into conscript soldiers or cripple them permanently at a 50/50 conversion rate and the government is tentatively okay with this. The situation is so dire that the government sets up alibis to allow them to wholesale slaughter peaceful protesters and it's considered a major political victory for Kudelia to be allowed to give a speech saying "hey maybe mars should have the tiniest bit of economic independence guys". It's in this shithole setting where we're introduced to Teiwaz, the ruthless space mafia who have so much power in the outer solar system that they are a viable political counterweight to Gjallarhorn. They have their own mobile suit research and production lines and are a huge military power as well as an economic force. Surely a faction this powerful in a setting this corrupt and lovely has to be full of ruthless assholes, right? Well, no, because all we see of them for the series so far is Our Holy Saint of Selfless Charity Naze and his literal battered women shelter Turbines and Grandpa McMurdo, the leader who is portrayed as stern but nevertheless has a soft spot for Naze and Tekkadan and willingly gives them everything they want no questions asked. Jasley, while certainly somewhat cartoonishly over the top, introduces the strain of ruthless self-interest that Teiwaz has been totally without up to this point, which made the organization feel less like the Space Mafia and more of a magical place where the main characters go to get anything they happen to need at the moment. Jasley is a huge dickhole who is eager to gently caress everyone over he needs to for self-advancement, and he goes about in underhanded, dirty, and merciless ways like you'd think a powerful criminal boss would. He honestly behaves like I had originally expected McMurdo to behave before it became apparent that McMurdo was just going to be The Nice Grandpa.
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Feb 1, 2017 11:16
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MonsterEnvy posted:Not really. The only damage the Turbines did was the suicidal charge with the ship at the end. To be entirely fair, the Turbines spent 99% of the battle actively refusing to fight offensively in any respect and repeatedly muzzled their ability to fight back in favor of attempting to surrender up until it became apparent that Iok was really intent on killing them all with no surrender allowed. Only then did the Turbines actually counterattack with the suicide charge - which was undertaken by a total of a single mobile suit and a battleship being crewed and controlled by a single person rather than by any force of note - and they still managed to severely damage one ship and completely obliterate another. If Naze's plan had been "lay an ambush and kill the poo poo out of the police when they come for us" it's entirely feasible to believe that Naze could have pretty much completely destroyed Iok and his entire force, especially if Naze had gone to Orga and said "yeah we're gonna throw down, you in?" instead of warning Orga to stay away.
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Feb 7, 2017 02:34
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MonsterEnvy posted:If Naze tried to ambush them. (Which would not have worked. As they were being chased and Iok knew were they were and was expecting a fight) then it would have been even less effective. The suicide charge was the only thing that did damage. Had it been a standard fight without the suicide charge it would have ended when one of the Dainsleifs hit Nazes bridge. The Turbines had enough foreknowledge that Iok was coming for them and enough time to set up an entire evacuation fleet for the entire staff of the Turbines on station, enough people to fill multiple giant unarmed cargo ships. It would have been really, really easy for them to set a trap that Known Total loving Moron Iok Kujan Who Lost 20% Of A Fleet To One Mobile Suit And An Uncrewed Assault Ship would have blundered into, especially if Naze had called on Tekkadan for help(Hello Isaribi dropping three Gundams into Iok's flank in the middle of the battle). The only reason things turned out the way they did was because Naze believed that shooting up a bunch of space police would simply make matters far worse for everyone involved and he wanted his employees and his friends to remain free of guilt by association. The Dainsleifs aren't invincible wonder weapons, just brutally powerful and effective, and they have pretty clear weaknesses. They are being fired by a bunch of mobile suits that require active loading by other mobile suits, which is a fairly involved process. That falls apart immediately the moment that anyone attempts to engage them in combat, as opposed to the scenario we got which consisted of them being able to fire and reload repeatedly in complete safety because their opponent wasn't actively attempting to fight back in any way initially. If someone like Amida or Mikazuki was busting up the Dainsleif formation they pretty much wouldn't be able to do anything besides scatter and try to defend themselves.
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Feb 7, 2017 19:38
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Lestaki posted:I agree with most of the first half of this, I just don't think it's a bad thing in any way. Given Tekkadan spends most of this show exacting bloody vengeance on anyone who wrongs them, I don't see why Gaelio isn't entitled to a little bloody vengeance himself after McGillis betrayed him. We already established Gaelio wasn't proceeding about said revenge in the most ~efficient~ possible way when he de facto revealed his survival to McGillis with a sick burn without doing anything. But that's about personal satisfaction, not honour in so many words. He doesn't just want to defeat McGillis at this point, he wants to deny his worldview completely. For that, it's necessary to demonstrate that Bael isn't invincible. This is a really good point and puts into worlds succinctly a point I was trying to make when I was discussing the ep with a friend of mine and he couldn't understand why Gaelio didn't just splatter McGillis immediately. Gaelio immediately capturing/killing McGillis while McGillis was weak simply validates McGillis's worldview that the only thing that matters is raw power. To allow McGillis to attain what he believes is the ultimate power in the world and defeat him anyway is the only way for Gaelio to completely repudiate McGillis's worldview. The symbolism of Mika and McGillis both embracing individual power in their own ways while Gaelio admits his weakness and relies on someone else's help is pretty nice.
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Feb 15, 2017 11:50
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Had a chat with a friend who was late on watching this week's ep and it struck us that the final conflict that IBO is setting up here is ridiculously grim. The only two factions that matter anymore are effectively a coalition of damaged, angry children who believe that raw power is the only thing that matters in the world and a faction that represents "legitimate" authority and the status quo, a status quo that condones things like mass human slavery, the slaughter of protesters, and the mass production of child soldiers. The only third way we've had presented to us, Kudelia, has spent the entire second season on the sideline to the point where it would be pretty implausible for her to suddenly roll in and fix everything unless the final outcome of the coming battle involves the two sides pretty much destroying themselves on each other.
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Feb 17, 2017 16:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:This really isn't going to be a thing. We've seen what Mobile Armors are, and they're not some weapon to be commanded because they're independent AI units with a mandate of Kill All Humans. More importantly, they'd be borderline useless. Everyone uses Nano-laminate armor, so their main weapon's useless against everything they might be thrown against, and a fleet's worth of shipboard cannons would just turn even multiple Hashmals to scrap. While I agree that McGillis isn't going to whip out a super secret hidden fleet of mobile armors, I think you underestimate how insanely lethal they have been portrayed as, regardless of if their main beam weapon works against nanolaminate or not. That single Hashmal was only barely matched and defeated by Mikazuki pushing the Barbatos to full power against it, and even then it totaled the Barbatos and nearly killed Mikazuki in the process - that's the best known pilot in the setting pushing the strongest known mobile suit to its maximum potential. A theoretical group of fresh and maintained mobile armors and their army of plumas would pretty much effortlessly butcher any number of grunt mobile suit pilots, and it has been well established in the series that battleships stripped of mobile suit cover are effectively sitting ducks against enemy mobile suits or mobile suit like objects. The beam weapon is effectively a terror weapon used to slaughter civilians at this point. The real danger is in them simply ripping you apart.
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Feb 19, 2017 16:54
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The Almiria/McGillis scene is a pretty interesting one to me because it makes me reevaluate his relationship with her. Based on him being so intensely creepy in previous scenes with her it was generally assumed that he was simply manipulating her to secure the Bauduin family's power for his future revolutionary plans, but the scene in this episode makes me suddenly second guess that; given that he's seized the Bael and is now claiming dictatorial power over all of Gjallarhorn to the point where he's actively arresting/restraining other Seven Stars family heads, he doesn't really need Almiria for anything at this point, yet he's still promising to make her happy to the point where he's willing to get stabbed to stop her from hurting herself. That and the fact that he's taking time out of his schedule on the brink of open civil war to see her and have a chat with her makes me believe that he actually does care about her on some super twisted level. Not in the  sort of way, but maybe he sees something of his childhood in her or something.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:06
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Darth Walrus posted:His exchange with her dad shortly beforehand made me draw the opposite conclusion. He's heavily outnumbered, the other families aren't rising in his support, and literally the only thing keeping the Bauduins from openly moving against him is his marriage to Almiria. She's tied to enemies he cannot afford to fight at the moment, so he needs to treat her nice, keep her alive, and give them reason to hesitate until he's done with the Arianrhod Fleet and can bring his full might down upon them. He doesn't need to treat her nicely to accomplish that goal, though. Simply having her hostage is easily sufficient for that purpose; it's not like Gallus Bauduin is going to suddenly change his mind about McGillis being a backstabbing traitor if Almiria tells him that Macky is a really nice guy at this point. The fact that he's bothering to make the effort suggests that he gives a poo poo about her on some level.
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Feb 19, 2017 22:23
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Lestaki posted:Did you see his face when the Seven Stars declared their neutrality? He was genuinely surprised and irritated by their reply, and then tells Orga he didn't expect them not to cooperate. With McGillis, it's always hard to tell what's true and what's a lie, but I think he was genuinely confused at the equivocal third option they found when faced with the choice of being with him or against him. Gaelio being alive probably contributed to his plan to go "gently caress it, go time" as much as his boner for Murder Mika. If Iok being a moron and deploying illegal superweapons to shoot pirates was a weak point in Rustal's political powerbase, Gaelio Bauduin of the Seven Stars showing up from beyond the grave and dropping accusations that McGillis tried to personally murder him and directly manipulated Carta into her own death is an even bigger weakness, especially since McGillis's powerbase isn't nearly as solid as Rustal's. In Gaelio, Rustal effectively had an ultimate kill switch for McGillis's plans; even if McGillis continued maneuvering peacefully, if he ever got too successful, Gaelio could unmask himself and derail everything. Basically McGillis hosed up incredibly, unbelievably hard by trying to be all elegant about stabbing Gaelio in the cockpit instead of smashing everything to paste before fleeing the scene.
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Feb 21, 2017 07:31
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I actually got a little annoyed at the Rustal Faction character scenes in this ep. While it's uplifting that Julieta decided that she wasn't going to give up her humanity for power, Gaelio coming in and smiling and nodding like he's going "good choice, Julie" while he rides around in a machine with a psuedo-AV system made out of the brain matter of his dead friend because he needed its power to fulfill his personal vendetta is hypocritical as hell. Gaelio is basically a walking "do as I say, not as I do" at this point. Kanos fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 02:07
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Guy Goodbody posted:The dude can be a monster and not want other people to also be monsters. He can also stop being a monster at any point he wants, but he has chosen not to. The only reason for him to continue making use of the Pseudo-AV system is to fulfill an arrogant desire to be the one to personally stab McGillis to death to prove a point to himself; he doesn't need to use Ein's brain to ruin McGillis's plans and stop the coup, he only needs it for personal vengeance. Julieta was at least considering becoming a monster for a slightly loftier goal than wanting to personally revenge-kill someone.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:36
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Darth Walrus posted:I think you're slightly misreading his motives. He wants to give Ein a chance for vengeance because once he was reduced to a broken weapon by Mika, it was the last good thing he could let him have. During the colony uprising, he expressed satisfaction that both he and Ein had the opportunity to fight for a worthy cause again. He wants to prevent Julietta from going down that path because Ein is a continual reminder to him of what happens when you start stripping away your possibilities like that. There's a lot of good things that she still has the chance to experience, and he damned well wants to make sure she has the chance. Using Ein as scrap components for a twisted variant of the system that drove him insane, killed him, and rendered his very name a whispered curse within the organization he devoted his life to in order to get petty personal revenge is a pretty loving lovely tribute to your dead friend's memory. He didn't need to make Einborg Mk2 to destroy McGillis's plans.
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Mar 6, 2017 02:39
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, he did. McGillis is a more talented pilot than he is even WITHOUT a Gundam, AV system and Mika on his side. He isn't going for personal petty revenge. McGillis is a genuine monster, especially in his eyes. The thing is that Gaelio doesn't have to personally stab McGillis to death to stop his plans and Rustal didn't need additional battle power to crush McGillis at all. The Vidar/Kimaris is solely Gaelio's wounded ego and his anger at his, Ein, and Carta's exploitation and betrayal that wants to do that. I do concur that he thinks that Ein is fighting alongside him instead of being exploited but that's pretty symptomatic of Gaelio's weird worldview. Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 06:33
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ImpAtom posted:Gaelio literally just killed someone who is a walking talking example of why McGillis needs his philosophy shut down and there are plenty of other impressionable youths working under him. People like Isurugi aren't following the twisted might-makes-right ideology that Gaelio is trying to refute. People like Isurugi are following McGillis because McGillis provided them with some hope of advancement and personal success in a hosed up, stagnant status quo that forgot about them. The average McGillis koolaid drinker doesn't know poo poo about the true philosophy that drives McGillis that Gaelio wants to deny. Gaelio's desire to deconstruct McGillis personally stems entirely from a personal sense of outrage and betrayal, which is totally reasonable and understandable but also selfish and not really noble in the slightest.
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Mar 6, 2017 07:51
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ImpAtom posted:No, they are being taken in by McGillis and part of what Gaelio wants to do is expose that. He has already literally broadcast to everyone what McGillis did both to him and to Carta. He isn't working in the shadows but has removed his mask and openly presented himself and part of that is fighting as a symbol. To be honest, I feel like he's very similar to how he was towards the end of S1. He's still got a twisted sense of noblesse oblige and his personal experience is still several layers removed from the hardship that motivates people like Isurugi or Tekkadan. His response to Isurugi's last words isn't understanding of Isurugi's plight, it's disgust for Isurugi following a madman. This lines up almost exactly with S1 Gaelio knowing Gjallarhorn needs reforming but not actually having any idea why or how. Kanos fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 08:52
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Lestaki posted:He's not disgusted with Isurugi, especially since he admits he also followed McGillis in the past. He's disgusted with McGillis, who is actually, legitimately a madman. The panning shots of the dead revolutionaries while Gaelio talked about people being misled by McGillis was explicit enough. I also really enjoyed his turn of phrase about 'a dream of the past', since it captures both the fact Gaelio has rejected McGillis and the reality that the vision McGillis embodies is more reactionary than Rustal's conservatism. McGillis is using the throne of a dead king as his symbol and has no coherent ideals beyond the pursuit and expression of power for its own sake. If you want real change to come to the setting, he's a false idol. There's no actual lie in the dreams Isurugi was talking about, though. McGillis gave him exactly what he desired, which was a chance to advance himself and be important and successful in an organization that had denied him. It's important to remember that there's two different factions who are backing McGillis for very different reasons. There's the koolaid-drinking True Believers like the revolutionary fleet who have swallowed all of the Agnika Kaeru propaganda wholesale who are straight up being lied to and then there's those who society has left behind like Isurugi or Tekkadan who are following him because he's the only person in authority in Gjallarhorn who has ever pretended to give one tenth of a poo poo about giving them a way to improve their lives. They don't really give a poo poo about McGillis's Bael posturing or his babbling about the true ruler of Gjallarhorn or anything except insofar as it can provide them with an ability to advance themselves. We've never seen McGillis intentionally lie to the latter faction. There have been times when he has not been able to completely fulfill his promises to them due to outside circumstances like Iok ex Machina or the Seven Stars families declaring neutrality, but he's never straight up bullshitted them; their "dreams" are real. The problem Gaelio is that he only sees the first of these two factions backing McGillis while completely overlooking the latter, which is the same set of blinders he had on in season 1. He's gotten better about it in some ways(such as acknowledging that he no longer hates Mikazuki for having whiskers), but he's assuming the problems McGillis represents will go away entirely once McGillis is defeated because McGillis is clearly the cause when that isn't the case at all.
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Mar 6, 2017 10:59
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Earth regulation fleet nearly completely destroyed,the outer fleet two weeks away from earth and fully militarized power blocks back in earth with their thumbs up their asses. It wouldn't surprise me if they do a coup of their own and depose the remaining seven stars back in earth. Rustal explicitly tried to avoid blowing up the regulars on McGillis's side as much as possible and there is significant military power under the families that refused to aid McGillis, enough so that they were expected to even the odds against Rustal had they joined Mackie. There's probably enough Gjallarhorn force to prevent an outright overthrow but not to keep things under control.
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Mar 6, 2017 15:55
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Lestaki posted:McGillis, Rustal, and Gaelio have all been seen to promote commoners so McGillis doesn't stand out on that front. You could argue his wider organisation features more commoners than, say, Arianrhodt, but I'm not sure I've seen anything in the show to confirm or deny that assertion. Rustal, regardless of his personal feelings on meritocracy, is pretty much a walking Avatar of the Status Quo in this conflict. He stands for the preservation of the present system with its focus on the power and influence of nobility; this is exemplified by the fact that he pays lip service to Iok - despite the fact that Iok is a moron and a war criminal who has caused the wholly unnecessary deaths of many people for the sake of his pride and helped to trigger this civil war in the first place - because Iok has the right noble blood and a bunch of people who follow him because of his last name. All of the leading figures in his fleet - Elion, Kujan, Bauduin - are the bluest of the blue Seven Stars blood. McGillis, for better or for worse, represents an enormous upheaval of the status quo. Regardless of whether McGillis ends up becoming an insane dictator or an actual reformer, he represents a chance for massive systemic change that could potentially end up for the better for people like Isurugi or Tekkadan who have been abandoned by the current status quo that Arianhrod is so furiously defending. When the current system is terrible for you and someone comes along that promises significant change in that system, any sort of change whatsoever, you're probably going to roll the dice on it.
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Mar 6, 2017 23:09
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chiasaur11 posted:Most, but not all. Julietta isn't a mover or shaker in Rustal's fleet. She's basically a hair above a grunt, a mobile suit squadron commander. She's loyal unto death and her skill and close personal position to Rustal means that she's allowed social latitude to do things like call Iok a moron, but she doesn't actually influence policy or command anything beyond her squad of MS. She is an indicator that Rustal values merit on a personal level but the entire structure of his fleet is Blue Blood In Command. Iok being allowed to dodge out of any real consequences of his actions due to his blue blood and his position at the head of a family is literally exactly what I'm talking about. Iok hosed the pooch on Mars in the hardest way possible and got a lot of people killed and then entered into a loving compact with space mafiosos to shoot fleeing civilians with illegal superweapons under Rustal's nose, and because of his lineage and connections he got away with a stern talking to and some time out in his personal suite to think about what he did wrong. Someone without his lineage would be court martialed for what he did, at best. Kanos fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 7, 2017 |
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Mar 7, 2017 05:42
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Darth Walrus posted:I never quite understood why the fandom always refers to Norba by his surname. It's not like we call our two leads Augus and Itsuka. The people on the show call him Shino basically exclusively to the point where I've had to look up the fact that that isn't his first name. I think the only times "Norba" are used are when he launches in a mobile suit.
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Mar 8, 2017 00:44
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Gridlocked posted:Ok so anyone got bets on the final episodes fight? That would be less of a three way and more of an extremely violent and short-lived 2v1. There would need to be some major event that breaks Tekkadan from McGillis because despite Orga coming ever so close to escaping the Sunk Cost Fallacy Vortex he got yelled at by Yamagi and now he's once again all in on getting more people killed so that the lives of those who have already died will have meaning. The funny thing is that Tekkadan could probably get out of this entire mess relatively intact if Orga was allowed to drop the King of Mars poo poo by his subordinates. If Tekkadan sent a message on the downlow to Rustal offering to abandon McGillis in exchange for a pardon, Rustal would probably grant it in a nanosecond because that would leave McGillis's already horribly depleted forces minus a battleship and a bunch of AV-equipped mobile suits, including two Gundam Frames. Iok is the only one in Arianhrod who still has a personal beef with Tekkadan and Iok is currently a powerless ornament.
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Mar 8, 2017 13:10
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Darth Walrus posted:Worried about a Kyujo incident, maybe? Seriously, Tekkadan as Imperial Japan has become an increasingly compelling read to the show. We actually almost had that happen back in S1 when Mika went crazy on Orga on the train, come to think of it.
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Mar 8, 2017 14:59
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Midjack posted:In this case I can see Iok launching against Tekkadan in his own attempt to give his dead subordinates' sacrifice meaning. I think Rustal has pretty clearly learned that he can't trust Iok with any latitude whatsoever as evidenced by Iok's place in the battle being "standing uselessly on the bridge with Rustal", so I doubt he'll ever be given enough autonomy to do something like that again.
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Mar 9, 2017 02:01
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Did everyone forget the Bael can fly in atmosphere unassisted? It's the only Gundam Frame we've seen able to sustain a hover.
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Mar 10, 2017 00:41
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I'm really glad they addressed the question of why Orga isn't able to just sell McGillis out at this point, and in a pretty logical and consistent manner.
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Mar 12, 2017 13:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:Iznario apparently did care for McGillis in a son like way. Wanting their relationship to be more casual. The bruises were from him being too rough. Not that it really makes their relationship any better. It's a horrible that Iznario pretty much had McGillis as a boy toy and pretty much worse that he thought he had a good thing going with McGillis and that McGillis did not hate him. To be honest, Iznario's confession only really matters because of the horrible position McGillis is in right now. If McGillis was still a secure up-and-coming member of the Seven Stars or if his coup had succeeded, Iznario coming out and going "NO HE'S JUST SOME CHILD WHORE I PICKED UP REALLY" would have mattered not a whit because either McGillis would have been in a position to suppress it and/or nobody would have believed a retired old man's rantings about a respected and powerful military official. It's just that since McGillis is now on the back foot Rustal is now looking for propaganda victories to make it so Gjallarhorn comes out of his debacle largely intact so he needed a convenient way to otherize McGillis and say "yeah he's not like the rest of us don't worry". It's the same logic as to why he's turning Tekkadan into a scapegoat, so that he can blame the civil war on the corrupt influence of outsiders and criminals rather than an internal power grab in a corrupt shitpile of an aristocracy. Rustal's realpolitik is impressively nasty and assholish.
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Mar 12, 2017 23:18
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Argas posted:Killing Carta opened up a spot for him to be promoted to. Killing Gaelio was more for the long-term to secure the Bauduin family. Both of them were fanatically loyal to McGillis to the point where they would have literally died for him(Carta effectively did!) and would have easily gone along with anything he wanted them to if he dressed it up properly. It's very, very easy to see Carta in the place of that dingus at the head of McGillis's revolutionary fleet, for example, and Gaelio would have gladly filled the role Isurugi was filling in this season. Him betraying and murdering them basically boils down to a combination of petty revenge against the noble system that used him as a child prostitute and McGillis's personal obsession with absolute power being centralized in The Strongest Dude. Rustal would have had a lot more difficulty dealing with a more patient McGillis who had the unwavering support of two other Seven Stars families and wasn't full of easily exploited weaknesses like the proof of his attempted murder of Gaelio. Imagine the current conflict with McGillis seizing Bael, except instead of McGillis crossing his arms and going "I have Bael, obey me" to the neutral Seven Star families, he has Gaelio and Carta speaking up in his favor to support his claim.
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Mar 13, 2017 03:29
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Argas posted:We've seen with Iok that just because a person trusts you and would do anything for you doesn't make them a reliable asset. The only reason why Iok ended up doing a bunch of stupid poo poo is because Rustal gave him a very long leash because he expected a stern talking to would make Iok not act like a stupid moron literally all the time. McGillis had no problems assigning the kool-aid drinking puppet that gave the revolutionary speech a fleet command even though that guy was a fool because McGillis never intended to give the guy any autonomy. It doesn't actually matter if Carta or Gaelio are reform-minded if they're willing to follow McGillis's lead on things that are important to McGillis. Which they would be, because if McGillis is extremely adept at anything, it's manipulating people who trust him. Remember that he managed to convince Gaelio - the man so disgusted by cybernetic enhancement that he threw up when he saw Tekkadan's whiskers - to turn his loyal subordinate into a limbless robotic Frankenstein's Monster to "give him another chance at vengeance". Until McGillis decided to be an arrogant poo poo and gloat like a moron Gaelio had absolutely no idea whatsoever that McGillis had been running a con on him and was shocked to his very core about it, which suggests that McGillis had his friends completely fooled the entire time. There's no reason why that couldn't have continued indefinitely.
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Mar 13, 2017 05:00
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Argas posted:Well, if Rustal starts investigating McGillis as a rival for power, then I imagine he would go after Carta and Gaelio. That's the rub - McGillis had relatively clean hands before he decided to murder Carta and Gaelio, and as far as we're aware Carta was a well-meaning incompetent like Iok and Gaelio didn't have any dirty laundry.
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Mar 13, 2017 05:18
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Sazabi posted:Why is "Kings of mars" looked at as an impossible dream. But fending off a ground assault, making it back into space, breaking through the largest fleet in the solar system right now, a fleet who isn't afraid to use danslaifs, with a single damaged ship, almost no spare parts, 1/5 of their funds, a three week trip to earth full of pirates, and somehow sneaking onto earth without being recognized as the solar systems most wanted, and then breaking into a highly guarded Gallyhorn databank so they can all become John McJohnson. The Kings of Mars plan was predicated on McGillis winning the political struggle and ending up in charge of a Gjallarhorn intact enough to retain their authority over the solar system. McGillis has not only lost the struggle, he's also been outed as a fake heir with no legitimate claim to the Seven Stars and branded as a criminal. To take over Mars at this point, Tekkadan would need to decisively smash the entire Arianhrod fleet singlehandedly in a way that leaves Tekkadan intact as a fighting force(when they already lost that battle while in much better condition and with much more help) and then hope that the Mars Branch leader decides to throw in behind McGillis again. Even then, you'd then have a bunch of hostile Seven Stars families on Earth who would need to be dealt with, and even then you'd have an utterly shattered Gjallarhorn and a lot of economic blocs that would be interested in filling the power vacuum that would also need to be dealt with. The "let's scrub our identities" plan is a lot more feasible because the only military objective is survival. They need to break out of the encirclement and get their asses off Mars and then survive the trip to Earth, at which point they have to lay low until they can use their influence with Makanai to have Makanai scrub their IDs. They have experience sneaking onto Earth while being highly wanted by Gjallarhorn authorities; they did it in S1 to bring Kudelia to Edmonton, after all, and they did it again in this season to save Takaki. This plan is still a long shot, but it's a 1% chance instead of a 0.0000001% chance to survive.
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Mar 13, 2017 10:30
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Iok wasn't actually a complete dumbass this episode. The entire point of the standoff was to force Tekkadan/McGillis to attack first on camera, which he did. It was pretty loving stupid that he almost killed himself to do it, but he fulfilled the letter and the spirit of his orders without doing something retarded.Zebulon posted:This seems inevitable one way or another, though. Mika has been clever enough to see through McGillis at pretty much every opportunity, it's not going to take him long at all to figure out what happened and murder the ever loving gently caress out of anything and anyone who gets between him and killing McGillis at a bare minimum, probably Rustal as well just on principle at this point. This leaves Gaelio to unfuck Gjallerhorn and god willing put a bullet in Iok if he somehow survives. This is assuming we don't somehow get a season 3 surprise announcement at the end of ep 50 the same way we got season 2 announced at the end of ep 25. I don't see any real impetus for Gaelio to be a driving force of change at all. Gaelio's entire approach this season was to wait and see how and why McGillis was doing what he was doing. Once Gaelio found the answers to those questions, he pretty much converted himself into a singleminded murderbot whose only purpose is to killing McGillis to prove a point to himself. He hasn't shown any interest in fixing the hosed system in the slightest or indeed any interest in anything beyond his personal vendetta. The only characters who have any interest in the long term political game anymore are Kudelia, McGillis, and Rustal, and Kudelia is so powerless at the moment that she might as well be sidelined.
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Mar 20, 2017 07:15
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Lemon-Lime posted:I was expecting a a car bomb, with the backblast killing everyone in that corridor, but this was close enough. There's no one else who fits the bill better. First, you have the incredibly pointed conversations between McGillis and Orga and McGillis and Mika. Orga is clearly deviating from what McGillis wants him to do, and when McGillis tries to bypass him and poach Mika, Mika's response is a very clear "I only follow orders from Orga". It was a very clear message that Orga is now in the way of McGillis's plans. McGillis then offers Orga a very convenient but risky out while enigmatically talking about how Orga going to Chryse would serve his plans as well. Only Tekkadan and McGillis knew that Orga and his team would be sneaking out of the base. Orga's death would serve multiple purposes for McGillis if he could pull it off without being implicated; it would leave Tekkadan leaderless during a time of desperation which historically means they listen to the loudest voice in the room which is likely to be McGillis, and it would theoretically free up Mika from his personal loyalty/obligation to Orga and allow McGillis to attempt to manipulate him. The worst possible outcome is that Tekkadan finds out and they try to murder McGillis in revenge, but at this point McGillis is so completely hosed that even a tiny opportunity is better than none at all. The only other faction who would be interested in doing this would be Gjallarhorn, and the explicit reason that Gjallarhorn is trying to destroy Tekkadan is for a visible propaganda coup. If they knew Orga was vulnerable like that they would have sent in an infantry platoon and either captured him for a treason trial by kangaroo court or killed him while resisting arrest, not sent an anonymous group of guys in suits to gun him down gangland style and then run away while leaving all of the other Tekkadan members present alive and free to escape. Shinjobi posted:Had Orga ever fired a gun before in the show? No, he explicitly never did so and left it to Mika. That's why he commented on being surprised he was a good shot.
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Mar 20, 2017 18:41
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Lemon-Lime posted:The idea that he somehow did it because he said a couple of enigmatic things and might have potentially maybe had the time to make a phone call while rushing out to fight, completely ignoring the fact that the shooting was done by goons who looked suspiciously like Nobliss Gordon's men and that Nobliss Gordon has set himself against Tekkadan is pretty loving stupid. Nobliss Gordon is explicitly working with Gjallarhorn. Why would Nobliss send gangland assassins to anonymously shoot Orga and no one else from Tekkadan present rather than call up Rustal and go "yo dude Orga Itsuka is completely undefended right now, free win" to curry an ENORMOUS amount of favor from the most powerful man in the solar system right now?
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Mar 21, 2017 02:46
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Did anyone ever consider it might be that Gjallarhorn would have spotters watching the known associates of Tekkadan like the Admoss Company just in case they try to help, so when they see the goddamn boss of Tekkadan pull up in a car and walk inside they'd be screaming for a hit team to get there ASAP? This is plausible but there's literally no reason why they'd send an anonymous hit squad of guys in suits to do a drive by instead of just sending in a platoon of infantry to do the job. Tekkadan is currently Public Enemy Number Two(McGillis is #1), so they don't need to cover anything up. There's also no reason why a Gjallarhorn-led operation would leave the other members of Tekkadan present at the scene alive and free; Rustal was very, very clear to Orga that he plans to kill every loving last one of them to prove a point, and there were multiple other people wearing Tekkadan jackets(seriously, guys, maybe want to take off the jackets for a bit).
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Mar 21, 2017 12:11
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