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Peel posted:also brace for people who think what the democrats need is a good hearty dose of racism Is it gonna be against minorities or doubling down against whites is the real question
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Nov 10, 2016 02:48
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Venom Snake posted:It depends on how much progressives are willing to stomach if it gets economic progress. I mean, ideally the right amount of racism is 'none' but people seem to think focusing on class issues necessarily entails loving over minorities, while focusing on minority issues must necessarily entail loving over whites. its a drat shame we can only ever care about one thing at a time.
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Nov 10, 2016 02:56
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Jonny 290 posted:http://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/796482684629483520 Whats important is that no one ever learn anything, and to remain unbearably smug even after its been made painfully apparent you've lost the narrative entirely
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Nov 10, 2016 03:05
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Adventure Pigeon posted:The only democratic revival that would be worth anything would be one that rekindles class consciousness. Hillary is a vengeful soul who absolutely could not stand up to any criticism from the left. She pulled the same ObamaBros poo poo she pulled in 2008 to discredit Bernie's supporters as racist sexist white men (or poor misguided women who would soon burn in hell) then kept that fire stoked because gently caress Bernie for running against her and gently caress his supporters for not falling in line.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:10
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Oh Snapple! posted:Actually the goal, as presented by a lot of folks here, was simply to up the number of people with insurance. That it remained unaffordable was irrelevant to them, because that number went up, and any negative experiences with it were to be not only ignored, but snidely derided and even questioned. To be fair, the ACA *did* help a lot of people. It did some good! But it was also horribly broken and caused a lot of harm at the same time. Hillary emphasized the former, Bernie emphasized the latter, and Hillary used the ACA to paint Bernie as either heartless or a befuddled old man who would take away health care and leave nothing but pixie dust in its wake. And people believed that, because they were not very smart (or just terrified about losing access to insurance they had no other means of getting). It was another case of Hillary being completely blind to the pain of rural white America and trying to assure everyone that the system that was devastating their income for no real benefit was, in fact, totally fine and good.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:15
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Jonny 290 posted:just ignore race. talk about class. talk about income brackets, shut up about 'poor whites' and 'poor blacks' because that is dogwhistling anyways Yeah, but Bernie's gently caress up was ignoring the question of race as it pertained to class politics. Blacks automatically assume any ambitious social welfare program will screw them over because to date all ambitious social welfare programs have screwed them over. So when Bernie talked about class all they heard was 'white people'. Plus they had no loving clue who this old white jew from Vermont was making all these big promises, while they all new Clinton as a queen of retail politics. Gotta have specific minority planks in your class remedy platform from the start. Bernie didn't know, and Clinton seized on that poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:19
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Venom Snake posted:Dude when Obamacare is gone a lot of people are going to die straight up. One of my closest friends is only alive today because of it. Do not poo poo talk it. This is the thing. ACA is literally life or death to some people. At the same time ACA is a massive burden on others (they would elect not to have health insurance at all and not pay the high premiums, any medical emergency is gonna bankrupt em anyways, lovely bronze plan or no, might as well save the $400 a month or whatever) Hillary chose to play up the fears of the life or death people while completely dismissing the concerns of the massive financial burden people. Turns out the financial burden people were a lot of poor rural whites who didn't like being brushed aside. E: Now everyone is probably going to lose ACA because they couldnt acknowledge the ACA was smothering some people and needed a massive overhaul.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:25
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Cubey posted:strictly speaking yes, this is why he lost the primary. it would not have lost him the general. Oh yeah, Im 100% on the Bernie Bus and was from the start. Bernie would have been extremely competitive and could have delivered the Rust Belt on par with Obama (if not more), although probably at the cost of turnout in the coastal cities which who the gently caress even cares they always go blue anyways. But Bernie got dismantled by a more experienced opponent labeling his supporters as sexists and racists, his policies as neglecting blacks and impossible (while providing jack poo poo of her own), and his record as fake and stolen (lol Bruce Rappaport was a loving thing this election, just lol forever at what Hillary won't stoop to). He also made plenty of his own mistakes out of inexperience that Hillary capitalized on, and ultimately nobody knew who he was because he started his national campaign way too late and the media was not on his side. If there had been a DNC dedicated to helping all candidates succeed and if Clinton hadnt been, well, Clinton I think we could have avoided this darkest timeline.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:38
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LegoPirateNinja posted:Fortunately it can't just be repealed since the health industry requires it to function. It has to be replaced with something comprehensive. My guess is the republicans won't bother with that, so in the end it will be tweaked. I got terrible news for you. The healthcare provider I used to work for privately decided to leave the exchange awhile back because it just wasnt worth it. They also had a lot of employers convert plans to HSAs and private plans to avoid ACA regulations, and it was apparently really easy to get exemptions from ACA regulations for the remaining plans. I think many health insurers could shut down their exchange plans in a startlingly short amount of time.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:45
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Yinlock posted:i'm not trying to defend loving fishmech, i'm just pointing out why some bernie supporters have a reputation of being both really obsessed with bernie sanders and having persecution complexes the size of a continent. Millenials and younger overwhelmingly voted Clinton. Like, to a ridiculous degree Nuclearmonkee posted:The ones who turned out at least. The young voter turnout was piss poor. This was the problem. I wonder what could have depressed the turnout of the BernieBros? BernieBros. BernieBros. The racist and sexist BernieBros. Just say that word every two sentences in every news article about the Dems for six months and then just WONDER why the BernieBros didn't bother getting up for Clinton. Clinton is a master of shooting herself in the foot due to her colossal hubris.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:51
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Yinlock posted:that's why i'm always careful to say "some" and "a portion" lol. Never change.
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Nov 10, 2016 03:53
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So, the weird and uncomfortable thing is that the next elections are going to rely even more heavily on the white vote, because if you thought voter suppression was bad this cycle you aint seen nothing yet. The Republicans own the Executive, Legislative and State governments, and are one bad weekend away from establishing a 6:3 majority in the Supreme Court. Black people in battleground states are going to need four forms of ID submitted in triplicate via fax only six weeks prior to even approach a polling station twenty miles away with a second biometric scanner that samples their rectal lining before they can vote.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:04
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Mrit posted:Back in 2006, I was angry. Angry at the Republicans, angry at the weakness of the Dems. I was hard left, and wanted to destroy the current government. Get Berned. Well, likely not Berned, hes old and probably doesnt have a 2020 run in him But hopefully we'll get someone else who isn't an establishment candidate to run. Zikan posted:DryGoods posted: Idiots seem to regard race as a zero sum game. If you reach out to whites you're coddling their racism which means now you hate minorities. Because reasons. We can care about more than one thing at a time you dumb fucks. Reach out to hurt whites *and* reach out to hurt minorities at the same time. And anyone who says you can't do both is a shithead who should be fired into the goddamn sun.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:15
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:This deserves to be quoted. I can think of very few left-wing icons that are less likable than Lena Dunham the fat exhibitionist pedophile, or Lady Gaga the... seriously jesus christ what the gently caress were they thinking. But Lena Dunham was popular with all the young interns they hired! That must mean shes popular with other young people! Its not like politically minded interns are likely to all be drawn from the same echo chambers that are completely divorced from reality or anything! Zikan posted:There's also going to be a slaughtering of campaign staff and no real heirs to replace them. Most of the powerhouses from the Obama campaign like David Axelrod, David Plouff, Danel Pfeiffer, and other are in the private sector and probably don't want to touch the tire fire that is the 2018 and 2020 races. Meanwhile Podesta, Mook, and his ilk are entirely discredited. I remember there being a weird moment in the campaign where people began to downplay Obama's abilities as a campaigner and put their faith in his data driven ground operation instead. Like, I distinctly remember it being a point in Clinton's favor that she had Obama's campaign crew, which was the real secret to his success and not the fact that Obama is one of the greatest orators and campaigners in American history. Maybe Im misremembering things though.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:31
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Nuclearmonkee posted:He never once used the bully pulpit. Applying pressure/bribes in a backroom deal does not make an opponent give an inch or a single gently caress in our political climate. Tanking the poll numbers of moderates in their home districts by holding them to the fire until they squeal via the bully pulpit probably would. For all his personal failings and later poor decisions, Lyndon B. Johnson was one of the greatest presidents in my opinion. The man could get poo poo done. Great things, like civil rights, and horrible things, like Vietnam. But whatever it was LBJ could just make it happen with his own enormous force of personality and outrageously huge penis.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:36
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rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:I feel like she might have done better had she been allowed to just be her boring self instead of her attempts to seem personable that everyone could see right through. Trumped Up Trickle Down? Jesus. Yeah. When Hilldawg was being herself she came across as a huge geek rear end dork, but in a much more relateable way. The rest of the time you could tell it was all a carefully managed stage production, and when one of your biggest criticisms is that you seem fake maybe its time to drop the careful management.
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Nov 10, 2016 04:38
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Pomp posted:how are we actually supposed to appeal to working class whites? Casual racism never solved anything Unless you're a Republican, then its your goddamn golden ticket because lol if anyone else is gonna reach out to these people. Theyre all racists by virtue of their skin color! E: Can't associate with all these racists. Better throw the election to King Racist. That'll show em.
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Nov 10, 2016 06:43
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UV_Catastrophe posted:genetically engineer a younger, more supple, and possibly black bernie sanders Im waiting for the resurrected corpse of Huey Long personally
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Nov 10, 2016 06:54
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Barbe Rouge posted:If I remember the '08 election book correctly, they removed Bill from the campaign then as well and got smoked. Hey, you know the other charismatic gifted campaigner in the Democratic stable? Get him the gently caress off the campaign before he messes up my spreadsheets! (or before he has another 'affair')
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Nov 10, 2016 07:05
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E: ^^^^^^ It *really* doesnt help that Hillary campaigned against Bernie on the platform of 'WE WILL ACCOMPLISH LITERALLY NOTHING EXCEPT HOLDING THE STATUS QUO, BUT BERNIE WOULD ACCOMPLISH EVEN LESS BECAUSE NOTHING IS POSSIBLE'. Really kinda hosed her up for making campaign promises of any kind. Lighten up on ol' Venom Snake. Dude just watched a project he sunk a lot of time and effort and hopes and dreams into crash and burn because everyone involved at the top level was a pack of morons. To top it off his political party of choice is now a burned out smoking crater. Thats gotta be rough. Dude is working through the stages of grief here. Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 07:25 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 07:23
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rum sodomy Rainbow Dash posted:Can we talk about how loving stupid it was for the Clinton campaign to take her in? I remember all the Hillarymen claiming that it was just to keep up appearances, and that DWS was still useful and powerful, and Hillary would pragmatically and discretely punish her behind the scenes so that made it all ok. Shoulda made a public example of her to help fight the popular image of a corrupt politician who valued loyalty over anything else. But during that time the 'gently caress Bernie we don't need him or his supporters' sentiment was running particularly high.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:29
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Right on, but where is this condescention coming from? The media? Its partly the media, but mainly its the way city dwellers have always viewed the rural populations, with a seasoning of identity politics to make it extra spicy. 1. All whites are racist. 2. All poors are double racist, uneducated and abject failures because they had all that white privilege and did nothing with it. 3. All rural people are triple racist, backwards, and probably inbred to boot. Therefore gently caress poor rural whites, they will only be satisfied by the literal subjugation and re-enslavement of blacks, and would never have any other hopes, dreams or desires we could appeal too E: also all their problems are 100% their fault, since smarter people would live in cities and use their privilege to be IT workers. So double gently caress em for staying out in their hovels
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Nov 10, 2016 07:36
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Mister Fister posted:Just out of curiosity, how long did you have to keep up appearances on this forum that everything was fine after being told that? Did you ever report back after reading SA and try to pass off the mood on the board as the mood of the electorate? I mean itd be real dumb but also hilarious if SA forums superstars were used to poll the mood of the country. Finally, how many CTR plants did we have, or did SA not rate any of those sweet CTR dollars?
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Nov 10, 2016 07:44
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Kithkar posted:The fact is you are both right, and everyone is at fault. Those poor whites really did vote against their own self interest while the democrats really do need to listen to them. But listening to them doesn't mean we can do what they want. There is no reviving their industries as they had them, we have to help them in other ways. Then find some other common ground I guess. Dunno what, Im not a highly paid political strategist. But listening instead of brushing them off as flyover racist hicks no one needs would be a hell of a start, because it turns out the Democratic Party absolutely needs them to succeed. Also never underestimate the capacity for a group that has no hope to want to take out everyone else out of spite. Middle America strapped on a suicide vest and blew Clinton out of the election just to send a gently caress you to the rest of America. If their life is going to fall apart, everyone is going to suffer with them. Selfish as gently caress, yeah, but then so is trying to build your coalition with only city dwellers and minorities from their point of view.
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Nov 10, 2016 07:57
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sportsgenius86 posted:It wasn't even spite though. They were given two options. "False Hope" and "Hope? Hope For What? Things Are Fine!" I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and generally think everyone is acting in their own best interests and sometimes those interests conflict or aren't mutually shared interests, but on this one Im gonna disagree and say a lot of those middle American voters knew exactly what they were doing and voted Trump out of pure spite and bile for the coastal elites who abandoned their towns to rot, rather than any misplaced hope that Trump can really turn back time. Id really rather be wrong about this but my heart tells me sometimes people just wanna give the world the middle finger when they feel everything is hopeless and out of control. E: And if youre confused why they would turn to a billionaire New Yorker to spite coastal elites, remember the news coverage. Hollywood hated Trump. Politicians of all stripes hated Trump. The media hated Trump. Pretty much everyone who wasnt from flyover country hated Trump. He was a rich rear end in a top hat who everyone they were angry with hated. He was perfect as a vehicle of pure gently caress you. Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 08:34 on Nov 10, 2016 |
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Nov 10, 2016 08:30
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Fulchrum posted:And by nothing, you mean a complete and total concession on virtually everything in her platform, essentially just changing the name at the top of the ticket while keeping everything Bernie supporters said they liked. THe result - they actually felt cheated on it. I think the issue with that is basically everyone on the left knew Clinton was lying through her teeth about that platform and would never do poo poo with it. It was yet another cynical triangulation. Clinton spent the entire primary campaigning on pragmatism and how change is impossible and barely scrabbling to maintain the status quo is the best we can hope for. People didn't forget that poo poo just because she put her name on Bernie's platform. Bernie had the furthest left platform in recent history, and the will to give it a shot. Clinton was a pragmatist with no grand ideas and no will to try anything. No one was convinced when she suddenly adopted Bernie's platform.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:41
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More than anything else, Hillary lost because she wasnt aspirational. She didnt put out any grand dreams or plans for the future beyond 'Obama 2.0!' and nothing about her was inspiring beyond 'has a vagina'. She probably would have been a very good policy wonk, but a president needs to be able inspire people with more than whats going on inside their pants. If she had genuinely pushed for even *one* big ticket pie in the sky plan I really think she could have done it, even with everything else that happened. Instead she insisted on pragmatism, constantly triangulated her positions, kept her goals small and, unforgivably, never even talked about them. She couldnt articulate any of her policy positions in less than thirty seconds and preferred to refer people to her site to see her stances. Hillary was just incredibly unsuited for the office of the president, and therefore a clown man who regularly claimed he would 'build a wall' or 'bring back jobs' or 'win on trade deals' won the presidency by having incredibly dumb goals that he regularly talked about and reminded people that he, unlike Hillary, had plans.
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Nov 10, 2016 08:57
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Oh Snapple! posted:this is why you employ non-affluent youth As part of the screening process ask them if they frequent reddit or tumblr and if they know what the latest memes are If they say yes to either site or identify a meme less than one year old (get a reference sheet) thank them for their enthusiasm and have em stuffing envelopes but never in any public facing positions.
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Nov 10, 2016 09:13
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mrmcd posted:Who honestly thinks lame memes mean anything other than this is the year 2016? I mean 90% of the C-SPAM posts were us posting and laughing at terrible Trump and pepe memes. From a ways back, but Im willing to bet the obsession with 'exposing' the alt-right and its stupid loving memes probably turned off a number of voters on both sides who were too old/cranky to deal with that horseshit from major political parties.
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Nov 10, 2016 11:07
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E: ^^ A VP pick is usually expected to secure the VPs home state as well, but aside from balancing out a photo thats about itPanzeh posted:If you understand that Hillary basically considered this election a coronation for her, that she had no chance of losing, then you can pretty easily understand all her decisions. Hillary thought she was gonna flip Arizona and Georgia. So much so she diverted resources from Florida and Rust Belt states. She thought she was going to run the board on Trump. Also Kaine was chairman of the DNC from 2009 to 2011, a position he probably got by being friendly with Clinton although he was asked by Obama. His role was to be a safe, religious white man with good relations with Republican senators and to deliver Virginia to Hillary (and maybe put more of the South in play - lol blue NC)
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Nov 10, 2016 12:19
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Phobophilia posted:this Isnt that pretty much the story of 2008 too?
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Nov 10, 2016 12:40
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Nonsense posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...62d1_story.html This is the most Hillary thing possible. Thundercracker posted:People going "Geez why did the working poor identify with a NY billionaire?" are really stupid. He may be a billionaire, but he also went on WWE and took a stunner from Steve Austin and shaved Vince McMahon's head. Lena Dunham also hates him, and I guarantee every member of the working poor who can identify Lena Dunham hates her and therefore is well disposed to the things she hates Sub out 'Lena Dunham' for basically any Hollywood star who through their hat into Hillary's corner if you want
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Nov 10, 2016 13:28
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Not a Step posted:This is the most Hillary thing possible. Wait, I take it back. Not making her concession speech while her supporters crashed and burned, then being two hours late the next day is the most Hillary thing possible But using a secret algorithm to predict voting outcomes and ignoring anything that ran counter to her inner circle (including her own two time president husband, lol) is easily the second most Hillary thing possible.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:38
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:yeah im pretty sure the trump admin is going to be one disaster after another and its the GOP is going to be in deep poo poo 2020 I think the real take away from American politics over the last half century is that we should under no circumstances allow actors to run for president. It will always end in tears.
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Nov 10, 2016 13:51
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Jonny 290 posted:this poo poo is humiliating and awful and i was never proud of or stood behind anything like this What is that image from? Is there some other incredibly cringey aspect of the election Ive never heard of before now?
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Nov 10, 2016 13:56
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Condiv posted:http://www.newyorker.com/news/benjamin-wallace-wells/hillary-clintons-powerful-concession Remember when the Bernie crowd was mercilessly taunted for this exact same drat thing? Clinton was more of a cult leader than Bernie ever was. I am drowning in schadenfreude right now. Also Ive been up for two days straight because everything is awful and sleep seems horrible at the moment.
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Nov 10, 2016 14:01
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C-Euro posted:Didn't see this in the last few pages- The mood right now is that Democrats seem to be incapable of realizing they need more than blue coastal strongholds to govern the country. People are still screaming about the popular vote and not realizing that running up the score in California and New York doesn't mean a goddamn thing if you lose the entire Rust Belt because you somehow forgot to make it a priority. Democrats need to realize middle America is a must win group and find ways to consistently bring them on board. Obama did it twice! The electorate is already out there! They aren't even the racist boogeymen the WokeLords are crying about. They just want someone to give a poo poo about their dead unions and dying towns, and maybe recognize that all of civilization is not found within 50 miles of an ocean. WokeLords need to stop being so prejudiced against white voters if they want to get anywhere. Especially white rural voters. E: They probably won't though. Theyre gonna double down on racism, both their own prejudices and as a label for people they look down on
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Nov 11, 2016 03:30
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Fiction posted:Like I know all of you are having a good ol time playing the I-told-you-so game but unless you try to have a dialogue with people you know in frank terms you're just going to circle back to the mess we're now in. You know, if the Dems could apply this mindset to the voters D&D seems to despise I think they'd really have a chance But I think most of them just like being angry at things
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Nov 11, 2016 03:37
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mrmcd posted:As someone who voted Hillary in the NY primary, I will say they/we hosed up in not hearing the alarm bells going off when Sanders did unexpectedly well in rural and rustbelt states. The Obama coalition was coming apart, and Hillary did gently caress all to put it back together. Part of the reason was her arrogance in just treating Sanders like a pesky and uninvited challenger, and part of it was the distraction of the horror show unfolding on the Republican side. I don't think the Obama coalition really even fell apart, as much as it was never activated. If Hillary had done literally anything other than run up the score in blue strongholds and fantasize about blue Arizona I really think she had a golden chance to grow the coalition, rather than see it collapse and hand Trump the Presidency. Trump was a real stark choice and an opportunity for the Democratic Party to use as a contrast for their own platform of growth and recovery or whatever. Instead Hillary almost entirely defined herself as 'Not Trump' and had no grand plans or visions for America. Apparently because she didn't want to risk alienating anyone by being *for* things - probably after watching Bernie get lambasted for being *for* economic justice which translated to *against* racial justice because reasons. They didn't vote for Hillary because Hillary never asked them to, or gave them a reason to vote for her beyond 'Not Trump', and it turns out thats just not enough.
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Nov 11, 2016 03:46
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C-Euro posted:I agree, but I also think that part of the reason it's an issue is that anyone who can get out of the Midwest has been doing so the last several years (or concentrating in Midwest urban centers like Chicago). My brother, sister and I are all 25-30 years old, grew up in Michigan (SE even, which has more going for it than a lot of the Midwest by comparison), went to school in the state, and my sister and I did grad school in the Midwest and had jobs in that part of the country for a while. Within the last year and a half all three us have moved to either the East or West Coasts. The problem with that is it concentrates the rural vote down ever further until all thats left are no hopers who can't escape and have to deal with being the one demographic in America it's ok to make fun of. Then those people vote for literally anyone who says they can help, or, failing that anyone who says they will make everyone else suffer. Thats how state governments fall, and how President Elect Donald 'loving' Trump wins the presidency. And then city dwelling elites carry on making fun of them and screaming at them for being useless hicks while they keep dying of alcoholism and opioids and the cycle resets. But the thing is if you can't find it in your (nonspecific, generalized you, not C-Euro) heart to empathize with those people and hate them too much to ever try and appeal to them, you really don't even need them because there's a large enough base of out there to deliver those states to a black man twice. You could try talking to those people and maybe someday work your way up to caring about people you disagree with.
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Nov 11, 2016 03:57
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