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Welcome to the (new!) Feminism Thread. This thread is for the discussion of feminism, sex, gender, and women's issues worldwide. In light of posting about feminist issues that are not necessarily intersectional with the misogynoir thread, I'd thought it would be prudent to resurrect the feminism thread. Accordingly, this should be the space for feminist issues overall; if relevant, feel free to crosspost from misogynoir! Please do your best to be a good and productive feminist or feminist ally; ignorance is forgivable, but do your best to become educated and try to post thoughtfully. That aside, let's lay down some ground rules: 1. Please, please, as stated above do your best to become educated! This thread will be a great place (I hope!) to lurk and learn more about feminism; that being said, please do not come in with women's studies 101 questions, or outright trolling. It is not the obligation of anyone who posts here to educate you; rather, the onus is on you to do some self-education first. As a courtesy, do some homework before you come in here Reading List (This is a mere jumping off point; I encourage anybody to post any books or articles relevant to the discussion) Women, Race, and Class by Angela Y. Davis The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir The Second Sex Summaries by Defenestration Woman, Native, Other by Trinh T. Minh-ha Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine Feminism is For Everybody: Passionate Politics by bell hooks Brainstorm: The Flaws in the Science of Sex Differences by Rebecca M. Jordan-Young Whipping Girl by Julia Serano Men Explain Things to Me by Rebecca Solnit courtesy of Defenestration This is a pretty comprehensive list. A Primer courtesy of Red Harvest The Politics of Housework by Pat Mainardi of the NY Redstockings courtesy of Tiny Brontosaurus updated link, thanks Olive Branch! Feminism: Issues & Arguments by Jennifer Mather Saul Becoming Ugly by Madeleine Davies courtesy of Nevvy Z Definitions (Shamelessly stolen from HOW HIGH THE MOON) Feminism refers to a school of beliefs that center around the social and economic equality of all people, regardless of gender. It has a heavy focus on the problems faced by women, especially the culture of violence and shame that has developed and contributed to the oppression of women and how this culture has evolved and changed over time. Feminism is multifaceted and representative of many different viewpoints while also possessing several unifying goals. There are many different branches of feminism with many different approaches to solving the problem of patriarchy. Patriarchy is a social system in which men are expected to dominate the central roles of leadership and authority. It is perpetuated through cultural norms and concepts which have roots from long before any of us were born. Patriarchy is not a secret cabal of men plotting ways to oppress women. It describes the entire structure of a given society, from the roles we are expected to play to the qualities and values which we perceive to be superior. It can be enforced and upheld by anyone, regardless of whether it benefits them or not. Misogyny is the hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. Misogyny can be overt and it can also be expressed through indirect actions. It can manifest in the form of anything from an outright belief in the inferiority of women to the unconscious expression of negative messages we have received through media and social conditioning. Not everyone who expresses misogyny is aware that they are doing so. It is a pervasive attitude in our culture. Sexism is hatred or prejudice expressed toward a particular sex as a whole. It most often takes the form of prejudice against women, although it can be directed at anyone. In the context of feminism, it is usually used to describe discriminatory attitudes or behaviors based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. As an interesting aside, this term did not exist in English until the 1960's-70's. During this time period the Civil Rights movement was taking place and the word “sexism” was created by female activists based on the etymology of the word racism. Sex and Gender are two terms that were used interchangeably until the 1950's, when sexologist John Money introduced the concept of gender as a social role. In modern feminism, sex is used to refer to a person's biological makeup (what sex chromosomes and sexual organs an individual possesses), while gender is considered to be a socially influenced concept that describes the identity we construct around our sex. It is your sense of being a male or a female and all of the social rules and characteristics that are internalized in association with that. As an interesting aside to sex and gender, there are some cultures which possess more than two genders. The Hijra of India, the Fa'afafine of Polynesia, and the Virgjineshtë of Albania are a few common examples of what Anthropologists refer to as "the third gender". Individuals who identify as (or sometimes are forced into) these roles are considered to be an independent third gender that is somewhere between male and female. Two-Spirit people in North American indigenous tribes are considered to be both genders simultaneously. This is different from intersex people, who possess biological characteristics that are difficult to categorize as strictly male or female. What gender intersex people prefer to identify as, if any, is up to the individual. Gender Roles are culturally specific sets of social and behavioral norms which are deemed appropriate for individuals based on their sex. They are largely defined by your upbringing. The expectation that men be providers, emotionless, assertive, authoritarian and hyper-sexual as well as the expectation that women be caregivers, emotional, passive, compromising and constantly sexually pleasing to men are common gender roles that we find ourselves subjected to. Individuals who step outside of these roles are often mocked, demeaned or even punished through social or physical violence. Feminism's goal is to rid society of the idea that people must adhere to these roles and to dismantle the negative associations with "femininity". Intersectionalitydescribes how various biological, social and cultural categories intersect simultaneously and contribute to the oppression of women with different degrees of severity. Specifically, this theory stands in opposition to an either/or line of thought: that you are either oppressed for being a woman or for being black. Under the line of thought put forward by intersectionality, you are simultaneously oppressed both for being a woman and for being black, creating a greater level of disparity than a white woman will experience. It also explains how women can possess privilege in one area while experiencing disadvantages in another. Privilege is a right, immunity, or benefit that is experienced by a person which is beyond the advantages of most others. It is used in exactly this context in feminism. If you are described as being “privileged”, it means that you are immune to social pressures and problems that other groups of people face, that you have a right which is denied to other groups of people, and/or that you benefit from a system which does not provide those same benefits to others. Privilege is not necessarily asked for. It is merely assigned according to the social position that you are born into. It does not mean you do not ever face hardships or legitimate problems. It simply means that there are other problems and issues which you have the privilege of avoiding where others do not. Rape Culture is the term used to describe the practice of normalizing, excusing, tolerating, justifying and/or condoning sexual violence. In America this is most often accomplished through media messages which paint sexual violence as the logical consequence of women failing to properly protect themselves. It is also the product of a long history of apathy and hostility directed toward alleged victims of sexual assault by legal institutions, which discourages victims from seeking help. It is Rape Culture which pushes the idea that men are unable to control their sexual conduct and should be inherently viewed as predators. Most feminists view the key to reducing sexual violence overall as the eradication of Rape Culture. The Gilded Cage is a concept used to explain the immobile position of women in society. The name originates from a classic painting of a woman surrounded in splendor, staring longingly through a window toward an open field. In feminist theory, it explains a simple idea: women are surrounded by "golden bars" which are said to be the benefits of their gender, but are also used to immobilize and degrade when necessary. It creates a duality in which sexually active women are desired, but can be deemed to be worthless sluts. Chaste women are lauded for their self-control, but are also mocked for being frigid ice queens. Quiet, passive women are ideal and yet also meant to be spoken over and ignored while loud, aggressive women are masculine-acting but irritating and bitchy. This concept is a good one to remember. You will often hear feminists talking about the lose/lose situation women enter into, where femininity is regarded as inferior by default so even perfect adherence to its rules will still leave women as secondary and unequal. FAQ's (Shamelessly cribbed from the same source) "Why don't they change the name from Feminism to Egalitarianism? Feminism contains some ugly connotations and it can distract people from seeing that it is a movement for everyone." Because literally no children's book has ever ended with “Wow, I’m sorry that I misunderstood what you are all about. Let’s agree to change what you call yourself so I can keep my prejudices exactly as they are and never make this mistake again.” "Can I be religious and feminist?" Absolutely. Several feminist organizations incorporate religion into their programs. While a large number of feminists lean towards atheism, religion and feminism are not necessarily at odds. However, religious doctrine that enforces patriarchy is often criticized by feminists. "Can men be feminists?" There is a disagreement on terminology within the movement. Some say yes and others prefer men call themselves "allies". Very few feminists feel that men cannot be part of the feminist movement. However, being a male feminist requires introspection and critical thought. Our current society allows for the dismissal of women's voices on subjects which effect them, and most feminists are aggressively opposed to allowing the voices of women to be ignored or shouted over. Many women's issues do not and never will effect men directly; we maintain that women must be listened to when speaking on those subjects. "Are Radical Feminists the ones who hate men?" Sexists are the ones who hate men. Radfems are called radical because they believe that radical actions and changes must be taken up in order to achieve feminism's end goals. Not all RadFems agree with one-another, although they do tend to be the loudest feminist group. Short answer: a bigot is a bigot, no matter where they claim to speak from. Simply being a radical feminist does not mean you hate men, trans people, or anyone else. "Why do so many feminists disagree with each other?" There are many branches within the feminist movement. Obviously, not everyone has the same ideas about how to fix society's problems or where they come from. You may hear some feminists agree one topic and others disagree with it entirely. You're dealing with people, not a hivemind. "As a man, why should I care about feminism or my male privilege?" Because not everyone in your life is going to be in the same race/gender/socioeconomic bracket. So even if you benefit from your privilege, people you care about are affected negatively by it. This has two immediate impacts: 1. The lives of people who care about are worse and 2. you will end up having to help care for those people. If a friend of yours can't find a place to live because they're black and gay, and they crash on your couch, that has a direct impact (economic and otherwise) on your life. If your wife or girlfriend can't get good medical care because her insurance doesn't cover an issue specific to women, that has a direct economic impact on your life. If your mother or daughter or sister makes less money because of her gender, that will have an economic impact on your life, direct or indirect. Privilege is only unequivocally beneficial if you surround yourself ONLY with others in your demographic: hence the rise of movements like Men Going Their Own Way, who seek to do that. You also have to deal with the costs of accessing that privilege. Men lose access to male privilege, in whole or in part, if they don't act in the ways that men are supposed to act, under the same societal rules that enforce their privilege. If a man chooses to take a traditionally female job, like teaching, he loses economic power and privilege. Just as one example. But fighting back against the systems that enforce that privilege also fights back against the costs associated with accessing that privilege. 2. Be respectful I want people to come in here and be able to post about feminism without it descending into screeds about GODDAMN SJW's, or yell that TERF nonsense that transwomen aren't women. The caveat to this is that if someone comes in here trolling or with MRA nonsense, feel free to show them the door. 3. Again, don't be lovely Come in here, and if you've said something real bad, in good faith, walk away. Please listen and try to understand why people call out sexism, even if you think you're being a good ally. DO NOT come in here and start poo poo about how "rape accusations aren't real," "why don't we call it egalitarianism," "idpol bad." 4. Keep it relevant This thread is not a place for you to post about say, James Comey, or Russian hacks. This thread is a place to post about feminism and feminist issues, and as long as derails are kept to those lines or other intersectional issues with feminism, everything'll be okay! 5. THIS IS NOT THE THREAD FOR YOU TO TALK ABOUT MEN'S ISSUES Yes, it is important to discuss how sexism affects men, and men face unique problems. HOWEVER, this is the feminism thread, so let's keep it on FEMINISM, please. There are two threads now in d&d that are about women, as opposed to LITERALLY EVERY OTHER THREAD. Please think twice before whipping your dong on the thread and talking about men. Resources In the US: call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 (SAFE) or call the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-4673 (HOPE) UK: call Women's Aid at 0808 2000 247 or the Mankind Initiative at 01823 334244 Canada: call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-363-9010. Australia: call 1800RESPECT at 1800 737 732 or the Mensline Australia at 1300 78 99 78 Worldwide: visit the International Directory of Domestic Violence Agencies for a global list of helplines and crisis centers. Legal Information for Victims of Abuse and Sexual Assault: http://www.womenslaw.org/ Charities and Organizations RAINN(Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) is the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization. RAINN created and operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline in partnership with more than 1,000 local sexual assault service providers across the country and operates the DoD Safe Helpline for the Department of Defense. RAINN also carries out programs to prevent sexual violence, help victims, and ensure that perpetrators are brought to justice. Planned Parenthood delivers vital reproductive health care, sex education, and information to millions of women, men, and young people worldwide. Feminist Majority Foundation is an organization dedicated to women's equality, reproductive health, and non-violence and utilizes research and action to empower women economically, socially, and politically. Distributing Dignity is an organization that distributes new bras, pads and tampons, enhancing the dignity of women in need. The Women's Refugee Commission improves the lives and protects the rights of women, children and youth displaced by conflict and crisis. The Women's Global Empowerment Fund provides women with the framework necessary to create viable opportunities for themselves and their families. Tostan uses a human rights-based approach to community empowerment and sustainable development programs across Africa, and their programs have resulted in 19K+ women selected into community leadership positions, 7,000+ communities publicly declaring they will not allow their daughters to marry before age 18, and 3 million+ people living in communities that have sworn an end to female genital cutting. AIWR (Alliance for Women's Rights) is a U.S. non-profit organization with a mission of supporting women leaders and future women leaders in developing countries (with a current focus on Afghanistan). Pro Mujer is one of Latin America’s leading women’s development organizations. Their integrated approach offers access to finance, health and educational services. Girls Not Brides is a global partnership of more than 650 civil society organisations committed to ending child marriage and enabling girls to fulfill their potential. Keeping in Touch with Your Elected Officials (USA) How to effectively talk to your member of Congress by Emily Ellsworth Call the Halls: Contacting Your Representative the Smart Way by Emily Ellsworth Other Relevant Threads Let's talk about the impacts of patriarchy/misogyny/male privelege on men. Misogynoir, #BlackGirlMagic and Everything In Between. QUILTBAG-The fate of fabulous folks in foreign fields. stone cold fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2016 04:33
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Defenestration posted:I'm very excited for this thread. Please please please let's not ruin it. I'd be interested, and this would be the place to post it! I'll edit your link into the op, thanks~!
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Dec 27, 2016 05:06
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I'll add more charities once I'm off my phone, thank you for the suggestion deified data! icantfindaname posted:why can't I be a feminist as a man, and instead have to be an "ally"? (i'm assuming that's hiw this works) Um that's not how it works, there are male feminists. I included both terms, because why ruffle any feathers?
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Dec 27, 2016 19:00
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Vindicator posted:Being an ally suggests you are a supporter outside the group. Hetero folks might identify themselves as LGBT allies because they support LGBT rights, but are not LGBT themselves. Feminism isn't really like that. All feminists agree with and support feminism, being female isn't a prerequisite. I think the only time the ally thing gets really bashed about is when discussing voices or leadership roles in feminist activism, because guys need to be mindful of talking over women on topics like abortion access etc. I figure because there are certain feminists that find male feminism problematic and there are people at large who agree with feminism who don't necessarily feel as though they do anything that warrants the label, why not include both feminist and feminist allies? Ultimately, it's about how you choose to identify yourself as a feminist really, and again, why ruffle any feathers? E: if this is ultimately causing more problems than it is being inclusive, I can remove "ally" from the op
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Dec 27, 2016 19:53
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CommieGIR posted:Is this thread generally for Equality Feminism or discussion of Feminism of all flavors? Bring everything on in!
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Dec 27, 2016 20:42
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the trump tutelage posted:Can you go into more detail about this? I'm not savvy enough with the discussions within/surrounding feminism to get what it means to discuss feminism from that perspective. I mean I kind of get it, but not really -- the whole idea of men interpreting feminism as an attack on men, or centring men('s feelings) in feminist discussion? Okay one of the things in the op, is educate yourself. Perhaps you may want to consider doing some independent research, and again, let's please try not to make the feminism thread the "I am a man, please explain misandry and the general mansensus feelings on feminism to me," especially given that there are some great male feminists out there.
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Dec 27, 2016 21:30
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icantfindaname posted:I feel like comparing men who ask about terminology or their welcomeness in the movement, seemingly perfectly legitimate questions, to white supremacists, is probably a bad way to win public support in a purely utilitarian sense, and bespeaks a fundamental hostility and lack of good faith in dealing with the general public Please don't start a slapfight about how feminism hurts your feelings and then try to apply it to the public at large. Stop doubling down on this crap, or get out.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:44
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Phyzzle posted:Perhaps if you could say, "don't post unless you have read x, y, or z." Or even, "no asking a question before at least looking at the Google results for it." I'm pretty sure the repeated mentions of educate yourself wasn't a thing either.  But on a serious note, I'll update the op when I'm not on my phone with something a bit more exhaustive.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:59
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Deified Data posted:Are you so insecure that you have to refer to yourself as an ally to put women at ease that you're one of the Good Ones? What is the meaning of this? Do you not trust yourself to reign in your natural male pushiness? Get out of here, thank you for your time.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:26
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silence_kit posted:Just lol if you think this on this website. This is why the cries of 'educate thyself' in this thread are so out of place and unlike every other topic on this forum. Yeah, uh there's a reading list and basic definitions and an FAQ in the op, but when you waltz into here and ask the hard hitting questions like "what feminism is?" "what about men  ??" then you can get out. You are making GBS threads up the thread. There are many varied viewpoints in feminism and within the different schools, but please mansplain to me the orthodoxy you're feeling that we here are emitting (probably through our vaginas or our male non-shittiness)Quit this doubling down poo poo and get out. Thank you for your time, there is the door, please leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:44
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Frijolero posted:This is an impossible question, but what is the current status of Feminism and the Feminist movement? a. Perhaps you may want to do some research and consult the reading list b. Do not come in here and ask us for the "status of feminism" c. Nobody is "relying on media to frame the feminist narrative," and more female representation behind the scenes and in media is a good thing. Also, it cannot be overstated how incredibly important it is having progressive women on the Hill, because women give more input when women are around, and women should be able to have visible policymaking roles, particularly when it comes to setting policy on women's issues. Do some reading before you post again please.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:16
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FactsAreUseless posted:I actually think it's a question that needs to be addressed: why should men give up a situation that benefits them? It's important to make men understand that they do not benefit from it in the ways they believe. FAU, no offense or mod sass meant, but can we talk about women's issues for like at least a few pages before we start talking about men?
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Dec 28, 2016 01:33
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Black Baby Goku posted:No offense, but isn't feminism about equality for all? Is it not a legit question to pose how to convince people to give up their privileges? Christ.... Get out. You are a notorious troll, and you have nothing of value to contribute here.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:36
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Black Baby Goku posted:Why is this person not probated? I mean seriously this is EXACTLY why this forum has a bad reputation and no one has any meaningful conversation or debate that isn't a hive mind status. gently caress off Tb is cool and good and has posted excellently thus far, with great links. You have 'd. Get out.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:37
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FactsAreUseless posted:Yes, absolutely. I've made the points I wanted to make about how "male privilege" hurts men, so someone can just quote them any time someone goes "what about men." I'll drop it. Oh thank you, I wasn't exactly sure what you were trying to get at. I'll add it to the op, hopefully people will ask less about it.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:42
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Are white people wearing dreadlocks a feminist issue? Because I really hope not, otherwise it sounds like this thread for feminism is more of a tool for social control rather then something worthwhile like believing all people are equal and should be treated equally. BBG, notorious troll, is a whiteboii who wears dreadlocks. I don't think you're posting in good faith, though, so get out.
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Dec 28, 2016 01:48
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I Killed GBS posted:There's a pretty simple answer to that: The racism and bigotry of those women outweighed their distaste for Trump. Right, I mean this is a great example of the intersectionality of white privilege, and middle-class privilege overruling any sort of feminist impulses on the part of these women. It bums me out, to be honest. 
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Dec 28, 2016 02:01
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I am familiar with bbg. However what I don't like is the idea of "feminist policing." What does that have anything do with getting a burn in on BBG? Guess what, please don't turn feminism thread into white dreadlocks thread, tyvm. None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about and please do not try to police the women in this thread, thank you. Also, if you actually took the time to read things like say [i]The Feminine Mystique[/] by Betty Friedan, you'd understand that the lamentations were not directed at stay-at-home wives, but at the institutions that kept them subjugated. Also, guess what, there is such a thing as sex-positive feminism, where sex workers and pornography were reclaimed in a sense, and it was and still is heavily debated. Feminism is not one way of thinking, a monolith, and if you can't even bother to try to educate yourself (via the links in the OP) perhaps you should go post elsewhere. e: misread your post a bit, fixed a space
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Dec 28, 2016 02:13
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Sure I'll buy this, but dreadlocks aren't exclusively a black woman thing, hence why I see that particular line of attack bizarre. Can you actually cite some examples that are worth discussing? Because you're honestly hijacking the discussion and trying to shut feminism down in all its forms. Have you considered getting out?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:15
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:What exactly is the point of this thread? Don't we already have like six threads for Tiny Brontosaurus to play Activist Empress in? What is the point of the feminist thread, questions the neckbeard. Who, indeed, he thinks to himself, is John Galt?
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Dec 28, 2016 02:53
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Literally every single post you've made has been telling the people to get out. It's telling that you are exactly the wrong kind of person to discuss feminist issues with and yet you made this thread. Nope, sorry, I've made other posts, thanks. And yeah, maybe you should actually cite things to back up your spurious claims. Clearly judging by the fact that we're on page 4 and are getting trolled, we need a gatekeeper, I created this thread to have a place to discuss feminism. Again, we're not here to DO YOUR GODDAMN HOMEWORK.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:55
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Sharkie posted:Re: white women who voted Trump, of course everyone else is right in that racism and white privilege were the main motivators. But one thing I noticed in women defending it was a kind of hopelessness or despair about how men are expected to behave: "it's no big deal because that's just how men are." When you grow up around lovely, misogynistic men, and live in a place where that's accepted, it's much easier to rationalize away. Now, does this mean the women saying this would tolerate a son or a husband acting like this? Who knows. But boys will be boys rhetoric is a framework that supports all kinds of heinous poo poo. Well, I think it's that framework, the internalized misogyny, and the power differentials that tell you to keep your head down and agree when you may know that way of thinking is wrong, until you start agreeing out of habit and survival.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:05
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boner confessor posted:yeah i could be a sexist racist misogyinst homophobe in your eyes but anyone who checks your rap sheet can see your history of going full on attack mode at the slightest criticism. i wont bother responding to you again because this is just going to go on in circles but ironically you're perpetuating some of the really bad behavior you criticize others for because of a general inability/lack of desire to keep your hostility in check, and i'm really taking the time to point this out as a Public Service for people who would otherwise like to participate in the discussion TB is cool and good and has posted some really amazing things so far that have been discussed substantially (see: The Politics of Housework) Meanwhile, judging by the hilarious racism and weird attack dogging you've got in your rap sheet, perhaps you may want to pull that two by four out of your eye first.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:26
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2017 exmarx posted:You're once again trying to chase out everyone who has the slightest disagreement with you, even if you share 99.9% of the same opinions. Asking questions of TB, or challenging something TB says, or disagreeing with TB, isn't inherently trolling or bigotry. Pretending that it is destroys the chance of discussion/learning happening in this thread. I think you post plenty of valuable stuff, and you're pretty much always on the 'right' side of a given issue, but the constant abuse, calls to suicide etc. can't keep happening. This isn't an issue of 'civility', it's an issue of totally disproportionate reactions that make (genuine) people afraid to post in case they accidentally disagree with you. Tb isn't slashie, and her posts have been helpful and productive in this thread. Where in this thread has she told anyone to kill themselves? Have you considered kicking out the trolls instead and getting more mods for d&d?
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Dec 28, 2016 05:03
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2017 exmarx posted:The problem isn't her calling out shitposters, it's her treating people who are posting in good faith as if they are shitposters. Read the OP exmarx, we're not here to do frijolero's homework, and if he can't read any of the links in the OP he's not acting in good faith. Also, this weird slashie obsession thing is really strange as hell.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:14
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:No one cares. Thanks for your shitpost, any cool effortposts to add about feminism? No? Please leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:28
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-Blackadder- posted:Jeez, it seems like threads with controversial topics like this one, mostly consist of people arguing over stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the thread topic. Like the only time people can have a productive debate and exchange of ideas is when everybody already agrees. If you can't agree to the bare minimum baseline of equal rights, than you might not be a productive poster here. There's room for an incredible amount of contention in feminism: just off the top of my head, raunch culture and the inheritors of Dworkin and MacKinnon vs. sex-positive feminism. Intersectional issues and the struggle of POC women to be heard. Everybody vs. TERFs.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:19
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-Blackadder- posted:I assume you're referring to the general "you" (as in people in general) since just up thread I'm the one who attempted to the end the derail by suggesting a more relevant topic like how feminism, the 2016 election, and the current state of gender politics in the country relate to one another. I agree, all the trolls should be kicked out, that would end the bickering.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:21
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twodot posted:This is a genuinely confusing attitude to me. I can't imagine the average person who needs or wants an answer to "what is sexism?" coming to any sort of good conclusion by performing their own research. Like yes it is easy to research in the sense that typing "what is sexism?" into a search bar is easy, but if that search lands them on a dictionary, or Bob's Megachruch's Lessons On The Role Of Women, they're not going to learn the lesson you wanted them to learn (and actively refused to teach them). Have you considered reading the op before posting?
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Dec 28, 2016 18:22
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Zachack posted:Considering how many times you've edited the OP since your original pointlessly rushed one have you thought that maybe a better solution would be to close this thread and reopen an identical one with a fully fleshed out OP? You could even reserve the second post for additions. Hm, well to be honest, I didn't think I'd need the op to be that big, but I also didn't expect this much trolling.
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Dec 28, 2016 18:46
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Zachack posted:The first three pages of this thread are dominated by a conversation over one word that you included but did not explain and which a basic amount of Google research actually provides no conclusion to, only conflicting opinions from sources of unknown quality. Now see, the kind of people who should be posting in here should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from. This is not meant to be a feminism 101 thread. Also, reading list was always in the op, hth.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:07
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Guy Goodbody posted:icantfindaname asked if men can be feminists or only feminist allies, and the answer you edited into the OP is "there's disagreements on that". Doesn't that mean there is no clearcut Feminism 101 answer? "should know the contention and baggage that come in the community from being a feminist ally, but also should get where the label comes from" can you read, friend?
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Dec 28, 2016 20:28
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Deified Data posted:Thanks for my first ever red text, TB. Keep fighting the good fight. Yep tb is definitely the only one exasperated with you, you cretin.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:08
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Deified Data posted:This seems to be part of it. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and think it bears repeating - yes, feminism is under attack. Yes, it's under attack on these very forums and in this very thread. When the question was prefaced by "this is an impossible question" and "please tell me what feminism is today" that's not acting in good faith, that's an idiot man coming here and wanting us to do his homework for him.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:10
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blowfish posted:And given that you are trying to educate an insufficiently feminist world to be more feminist, doing his homework for him is exactly what you need to do. How tedious. It's not like there's a reading list in the op, or anything. Gold star for you.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:13
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Defenestration posted:This is a good post, thanks Ghost of Reagan Past. Yeah, that was a very good post. This co-opting of terms is extremely distressing, but I hadn't seen it come up for safe space yet. How has the right-wing been using that?
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Dec 28, 2016 21:17
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Guy Goodbody posted:The men's feminism thread had a clearer focus from the beginning, as opposed to this thread, where stone cold had to repeatedly update the OP to narrow the scope of the thread. gently caress off. The op got updated to add FAQs and more links, you crybaby. I didn't think it was gonna be necessary to add a rule that said "keep it about feminism" when I already had the "keep it relevant rule, but I'm glad shitheads like you exist.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:21
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Pharohman777 posted:If Sarkessians branch of feminism does not want women to join in "male violence", then isn't that reinforing the patriarchal attitude that women are peaceful and unable to fight? Is there a "female violence"? It's a little more nuanced than that. To start with, feminism is not a monolith, and there is such a thing as difference feminism which puts more emphasis on traditionally feminine values, while maintaining the essential personhood status of both men and women. But secondly, I don't think it's unreasonable for certain people to discourage violence. As bell hooks put it in her review of lemonade: quote:Contrary to misguided notions of gender equality, women do not and will not seize power and create self-love and self-esteem through violent acts. Female violence is no more liberatory than male violence. And when violence is made to look sexy and eroticized, as in the Lemonade sexy-dress street scene, it does not serve to undercut the prevailing cultural sentiment that it is acceptable to use violence to reinforce domination, especially in relations between men and women. Violence does not create positive change. I don't necessarily agree with the notion, and I think female violence is good, but I understand where it comes from.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:36
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Wendigee posted:I've been really bored because I lost my gaming computer... I haven't seen the show because I don't have Amazon, but some people definitely have reactionary feelings towards transwomen. Are all of them as terrible as TERFs, no, but I think going forward we should be striving for the rights of all women, and I don't think it's productive for us as feminists to shut the gate on transwomen. What hostile reactions were there specifically? Also, were these characters on the show, or actual feminists in real life?
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Dec 29, 2016 00:46
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BarbarianElephant posted:One of the reasons that I really enjoy online debate is the "permission" to talk about things as aggressively as men do. I would never talk so aggressively in real life as I do here - it would make me very unpopular. And I would simply be too scared to bluntly disagree with some huge guy who was frothing with rage about politics. Same, and I used to pose as a man elsewhere on the internet for this exact reason. I think it's important to have a carved out space where female voices can be heard precisely because of this marginalizing you've seen, and all of us have seen. Also, when those alt-right dicks get doxxed and outed after they've harassed some poor woman who dares to disagree with them, it makes me very happy. Too bad there's so goddamn many of them.
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Dec 29, 2016 04:41
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