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Rappaport posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Goons and cleaning: Impressions, experiences, outcomes - How is clean formed? A...a chart?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:07
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Wasting posted:You have to go with people who are there to look at or touch (location depending) titties who have the option of not paying to do so. It's only as sad as you and the people you're with. Some places actually have decent performances, as well, like acrobatics involving kerosene and fire. It's fully sad and a barely disguised front for human trafficking.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:50
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Wasting posted:It definitely can be, dependent on area, but that's kind of a generalization. Since there is really no practical way to know whether the woman you're paying is a victim of it, generalization is appropriate.
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Jan 2, 2017 01:54
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Wasting posted:This is a logical error. Just because a small subset -- again, depending on area -- is a victim, it doesn't mean that all exotic dance and performance is victimization. You're also demonizing sex work in this assessment. We're dealing in a spectrum of course. Please walk me through the steps of getting a private dance, and tell me how you discern that your money isn't going to a pimp. e: you're big on "areas", which areas are free of this coercive dynamic?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:03
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Wasting posted:Should strip clubs, and further sex work, be illegal? I asked you first.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:04
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Wasting posted:It's a heuristic. I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas, and perhaps I've been complicit in the victimization of women, but in major urban centres with high covers, it seems unlikely. I admit it's impossible to know. Now you. As far as prostitution goes, I think the Nordic model has a lot to offer: bust johns, provide services to sex workers and victims of trafficking. But as has been mentioned, there are a lot of unintended consequences even from that, one of which is that it's hard to get a cop to think in terms of not harassing "prostitutes". Strip clubs are a more complicated problem still, as are other businesses where sex is often covertly sold, like the bikini barista places. We have to look at how to keep men from siphoning off the profit and exploiting women.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:12
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One more thing:Wasting posted:I've only been to a few strip clubs in my life, but they are in generally decent areas What does "decent" mean to you and why would those characteristics shield women from exploitation?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:16
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Wasting posted:There's no fence dancing and I find this a bit aggressive considering my original post. I feel like you are trying to chase me off. We're actually trying to have a straightforward conversation with you about whether strip clubs are exploitative, and you're being defensive for some reason. I've been to a strip club before, but I wouldn't go anymore because I learned some things.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:20
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Wasting posted:I've really tried to be respectful of everyone's opinion on the matter, but I don't feel that same courtesy has been afforded me. If going to a strip club is an inherently heinous act, how do you propose I go forward as a heinous man? If you go back through all the posts on this page you might be able to figure out that no one has criticized your decisions. You're inferring that.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:22
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Wasting posted:Okay, that's great. And I agreed with your model on how it could possibly be organized. Now, what is your idea of a "decent area" and what about those areas makes women less likely to be exploited there?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:23
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Wasting posted:If you're looking to deconstruct me, it's probably classist and based on income. All right, thank you. I have no interest in deconstructing you, I just want to know what you think. If an area has higher average incomes or social class, how does that protect the women who do sex work there from exploitation? It doesn't seem to protect other workers from it.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:29
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GlyphGryph posted:Also what does this sex worker talk have to do with the subject of this thread? I have a great many opinions on this issue, an issue in which there is much to discuss and seems to be more a question of "how much of a woman's autonomy are we willing to sacrifice in order to prevent a woman's exploitation" or maybe "is providing support to an industry without adequate ethical safeguards itself unethical, especially if withdrawing support also robs a group of people of opportunity?" but when I stop and think of it in terms of "the impacts on men by the patriarchy" I'm drawing a blank. Isn't this exactly the sort of discussion that the normal feminism thread should be about rather than this one? Are you really asking what men participating in empty, exploitative transactions as a substitute for equal, respectful relationships has to do with the effects of patriarchy on men?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:32
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twodot, men are having a hard enough time getting caught up here. If we try to get the robots caught up too we'll never get anywhere.GlyphGryph posted:Are you really this committed to being disingenuous? Disingenuous? I could have just phrased it as a statement, but it seems very relevant to me. Men are participating in systemic exploitation of women (often girls because johns are not too particular--or are particular), endangering their spouses with STDs and destroying their own relationships by participating in sex trafficking. How is that not an effect of patriarchy that causes damage to their well-being?
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Jan 2, 2017 02:38
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Am I missing something here? e: if it helps for context, I regularly coordinate with our county's CSEC task force and spend a lot of time working with survivors of trafficking
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Jan 2, 2017 02:43
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GlyphGryph posted:"We could talk about this issue in a certain way" is irrelevant to a criticism of "You are not talking about this issue in a certain way". What I am saying is, I don't know how you could have construed what I said as disingenuous. Sure I phrased it a little sarcastically, but that's because there is a pretty obvious connection between men participating in sex trafficking and they, themselves, experiencing negative effects. That's why I am baffled that posters are treating this discussion as irrelevant to the purpose of the thread.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:50
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the trump tutelage posted:At least in terms of the thread topic, treating women and women's bodies as accessories seems far more pervasive and toxic than the exchange of sex for money. In many cases they are the same thing.
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Jan 2, 2017 02:57
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GlyphGryph posted:You did this while you, yourself, were the primary actor in refocusing the existing, men-focused conversation (all two posts of it) to talk solely about the women involved and the impact on them. You know sometimes, to talk about what affects men you have to talk about women for a minute. This is a tough break and I don't know how to counsel you about it other than steeling yourself.
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Jan 2, 2017 03:00
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"Hey you might be participating in an exploitative system" "gently caress off this is about things that affect ME"
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Jan 2, 2017 03:02
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GlyphGryph posted:Would you accept this as an excuse from a man coming into a feminism thread, specifically a feminism thread about how the patriarchy effects women, to talk about how a particular issue effects men? Haha no, of course not
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Jan 2, 2017 03:06
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rudatron posted:As long as exploitation is a fact of life, asking people to 'not patronize exploitative industries' is just bullshit though. Guess where the minerals from your smart phone came from? All right, fair enough. So is prohibiting underage sex work similarly bullshit, and no more worth avoiding than adult sex work, until all exploitation perishes from the earth?
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Jan 2, 2017 05:40
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Wasting posted:The sheer aggression at me having visited strippers. I'm not sure why someone would be so mad at me for having made use of their services unless they disagreed with the business at its root. Not really, it's in line with the Nordic model (prosecute johns, provide services to women doing sex work). In this case it's perfectly sensible to see strippers as women with agency who can take pride in their work, and their customers as greasy perverts.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:43
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I want to point out that, as I recently had my eyes opened in the feminism thread, the Nordic model has some glaring blind spots regarding protecting sex workers. They aren't allowed to collaborate or unionize. It's a step in the right direction but sex workers still deserve a lot better Oh I completely agree! I was just at a presentation by a researcher who had visited Norway on a Fulbright scholarship. From what she said about Norway it sounds largely positive, but I've read about cases in Sweden where police use the new laws to get women evicted from their apartments by threatening to charge landlords with third-party solicitation. But she also talked about some of the totally legal and above-board brothels in Germany, and how trafficking and STDs are rampant there as well, despite (I believe) unions being legal. It's an incredibly tangled issue and there are people I have worked with and respect with many different opinions.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:50
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Oh and if anybody feels like we are straying from the topic again, AS A MAN let me say that this is essential education for men. You've got to understand the nature of coercive relationships before you can even aspire to be a human being.
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Jan 2, 2017 05:54
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Wasting posted:If you are a man who has visited a strip club, look on these works and despair. I am, I wouldn't go now though. How did I ever get over myself?
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Jan 2, 2017 06:07
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kapparomeo posted:If a strong, confident, courageous, heroic, proud woman is using her personal agency to become a stripper, then it would be hatefully patriarchal and bigoted of me to participate in Puritanical immoral boycotts and marginalising economic warfare by declining to use her services. By visiting a stripper I am a loyal feminist ally supporting her independence. Totally what she's thinking I'm sure!
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Jan 2, 2017 15:30
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Nobody loving argued for a "bland and featureless life," calm the gently caress down. I said the word "consent" and you went loving nuclear for two pages. That is not the behavior of a person who actually understands and values consent. There's something vaguely fascist about it as well. The only growth is through pain, etc. Hazing rituals with forced consent.
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Jan 2, 2017 19:13
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The Kingfish posted:Actually, roughhousing extremely normal childhood behavior. Are those things the same, dude I totally trust to be the custodian of normalcy?
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Jan 2, 2017 19:25
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The Kingfish posted:Its easy to see here how some men might feel unwelcome in feminist discussion. Roughhousing as described in this thread is big part of male culture, it sad to see it disregarded so thoughtlessly. Strange that you would care about feeling welcome. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 2, 2017 19:48
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