NHL N/V February: Therrien, Therrien So Far Away

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > NHL N/V February: Therrien, Therrien So Far Away

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Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

They were shopping Bishop at the draft, too.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2017 04:52

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 18:02

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Ginette Reno posted:

Are you saying 5 guys standing stationary and passing around the perimeter isn't the key to a good PP?

e: Feels like it's gonna be hard for Sid to hold onto the goals lead. A lot of guys breathing down his neck since he's slowed down a bit. Should still be able to hit in the 40s I think but that may not be enough with Ovechkin around.

ee: Colorado is loving embarrassing by the way. They're almost 03-04 Penguins levels of bad and they've got a wayyyyyyyyyy better roster than that team did

They're on pace for a worse goal differential (-123 to -113) and far less points (48 to 58) than the 04 Penguins were, and that's with more points available because of the shootout.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2017 16:17

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

If Washington thought that Vegas would for sure take Grubauer they could trade him to get some return. Or they could make a trade with LV to leave him unprotected from Washingtons side or not take him from Vegas' side.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 02:55

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

I saw someone use the abbreviation VGK and I had no idea what the heck they were talking about until a day later.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 03:01

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

bewbies posted:

he grows on you after some period of time, you just have to wait it out

When did he first get a lot? I remember him from at least 2003. That's Oilers rebuild territory

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 18:16

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Gretzky was also a really great player deep into the 90's. In 98 he was 1 point off 2nd for scoring when he was 37, his back was shot and he was on a crap team.

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 19:10

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Bigger rinks wouldn't increase scoring

# ¿ Feb 6, 2017 19:48

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Remember when the Bruins were really well stocked for the future and then made poorly conceived trades for Seguin and Hamilton?

# ¿ Feb 7, 2017 15:33

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

ThinkTank posted:

Yup, it boils down to the fact that those with responsibility (generally older) are jealous of the unencumbered nature of those without it (the young and carefree). Placing the expectations of a 53 year old family man on a single 22 year old guy leads to situations where Seguin gets traded for a bundle of soiled rags. People do a hell of a lot of growing up and settling down in their twenties, it just requires a modicum of patience to play out.

Additionally, there have been scores of players who have succeeded in the league despite being alcoholics, pill poppers or coke fiends. Hell, NHL players are much more likely to call out your personal behaviour if you extend your shifts or do drop passes than if you're just a substance abuser.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 17:55

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

I also think that more than young players they target good players.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 18:01

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

ThinkTank posted:

Of course, these are pro-athletes we're talking about. You don't get to the NHL by coasting on talent alone (Kovalev excepted). Players are required to commit full time from the age of 12 Still, Gostisbehere isn't some rookie who dominated junior and is now struggling at the pro level. He's had success in the NHL, some would say a great deal of it. He's having a sophmore slump, but they happen. Nothing has changed from his rookie season in regards to work ethic, training, etc. (or at least we can assume he hasn't suddenly decided to start hanging out at strip clubs and chugging codeine). So why has the team suddenly decided he's not trying hard enough? Why wasn't that identified last year? And if it was, why did the team feel they had to modify a successful formula? Why is it that apparently coasting on talent worked one year, then isn't close to good enough the next?

Kovalev didn't coast on talent, if such a thing is even possible. While he certainly had great physical ability (which required him being in great shape, which he always was) it's not as if he just woke up one day as a great stickhandler and shooter, they were skills he worked on constantly at a level that put even other NHLers to shame. Kovalev's issues were different, and really it's mostly nitpicking a guy who was a very productive NHLer for 20 years. Kovalev's reputation is as much a victim of the dumber aspects of NHL culture as anyone.

Rotten Cookies posted:

e:f,b.

But yes. Hype, unrealistic expectations, playing behind a real bad Islanders team, and injuries riggitywrecked DiPi. Also, DiPietro was hurt by the Brodeur rule.

It's wild that the Isles traded away Luongo and Olli Jokinen for Mark Parrish and Oleg Kvasha. To make room for DiPietro. What the gently caress, man.

It also included them taking DiPietro over the higher rated Heatley and Gaborik and that trade was the only the 3rd worst that the Isles made in a 3 year span. Can someone give Milbury power again!?

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 20:48

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Levitate posted:

Eh I think the biggest criticism I can think of with Kovalev is that if he was a smarter player he could have been considered one of the greats. All the physical tools were there and he could do pretty much anything any of the top players in the league could do, often better than they could, but but he didn't necessarily apply them as well as some other players. It's like...Crosby is the best in the league not because he's obviously the most physically talented player in the league...I think there are a lot of players you could say are on Crosby's level in terms of the outright talent department, but he's so good at just playing the game and knowing what to do or knowing how to take advantage of his opponents and use his skills to their best advantage. Kovalev didn't quite get that, at least consistently.

I don't think of Kovalev as a particularly dynamic skater (he was "good enough" but he was never blowing by guys) and that's like half of the physical tools department. I don't think there was ever a reasonable expectation that Kovalev should be a Jagr level player, which kind of feels like where people are going with to say he underachieved. He never flashed that level of dominance at any level and it's an absurdly high bar for any player to achieve. I think the better argument against Kovalev is the smarts/hockey sense, but then no one ever considers that a teachable skill for other players which is part of the reason I think there's a double standard for him.

I also don't agree with that assessment of Crosby. Physically he is both a top tier skater and freakishly strong, and he has one of the best skillsets of any player in history with elite as hell passing, stickhandling, shooting, etc.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 22:53

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

JoelJoel posted:

And two seasons ago when they were top if the east. Definitely worth complaining about all the time. I mean having the best goalie in the world is so horrible because he could get injured.

If they indeed had the best goalie in the world.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 07:19

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Dale Ouise posted:

The possession numbers are north of 50 in 5v5 all situations, but they drop like a rock once you adjust for leading by at least one. It's really irritating to see them lay off the pressure in the third, and even Capuano got a ton of poo poo for that.

Of the 30 teams Montreal is ranked 6th in possession when tied and 4th when leading. They experience the same drop that every single team does.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2017 23:55

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Ginette Reno posted:

I was being a bit hyperbolic by calling it poo poo but compared to the rest of the playoff teams their depth is nothing special. It's enough to win with given they have the best goalie in the world.

Also not sure why anyone would mock Therrien for failing in 08. That Red Wings team was arguably the best Cup winning team of the post 05-06 era. I'd put that team against any Cup winning team since then and favor them. Therrien also had Maf playing at a 930 save percentage that year (he would have won the Conn Smythe, lol) which is a loving miracle. He's got some big flaws as a coach but I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as people think.

I'm guessing it's a reference to 2008/09 when he was leading a Penguins team with fully healthy Crosby and Malkin to well out of the playoff picture before being fired.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 00:00

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

The difference between a really good coach and a really bad coach is marginal, there are no miracle workers and you can win a Cup with Randy Carlyle, I saw it happen.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 01:05

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Dale Ouise posted:

http://naturalstattrick.com/teamtable.php?season=20162017&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=u1&gpf=82&loc=B&rate=n

3rd in 5v5 all situations, 16th when ahead by 1 with a difference in 6.5 points.

Bump it up to 2+ and theyre the #2 team in the league, and are actually 1.2 points better than they are tied. The sum total of all of this is; a bunch of noise.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 01:09

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Levitate posted:

Dolan is a great owner for the Rangers because he focuses all his energy on loving up the Knicks and just opens his wallet for the Rangers. Every time I see anything about the Knicks I'm just super glad they exist to distract Dolan from the Rangers.

Though a lot of this seems to be Phil Jackson being a gigantic rear end in a top hat for some reason?

The Rangers also had a pretty long stretch between 97 and 2006 where they had by far the biggest payroll of any team and never came close to making the playoffs.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 20:40

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

If you get 6 great years, 3 good years and 3 bad years in a 12 year contract then it worked out phenomenally, even though it comes out as "too long" in the end. It's the ones that turned bad in the 3rd year that were the real issue.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 21:44

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

ThinkTank posted:

Burns has been excellent offensively but Green was as impressive or moreso in his 30 goal season and he didn't even get the Norris. They play basically exactly the same fourth forward role. Other than Burns not breaking out until thirty, I don't see what he's doing as being so much more outstanding than what Green or even Karlsson has done at their best.

Green was 4th on his own team in scoring in both his big years, which is quite a bit different than being 4th in the league, 10 points clear of #2 on your team and in striking distance of #1. Part of that was he missed a quarter of the season in his 30 goal year, but then that is a legitimate strike against you. Green didn't actually deserve to win in either year and he never had anything close to what Burns is doing this season.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2017 02:44

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Even by the standards of which we expect guys to get axed, Joe Sakic really should be dead man walking. Instead I haven't heard anything about him being let go and the Avs are trusting him with the fire sale.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2017 05:13

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

bub spank posted:

Burns definitely deserves the Norris this year, but it's interesting to see the unanimous hype for Burns given the intense debate over the award last year. On the same date last year, Karlsson had 62 points in 56 games (3rd in NHL scoring), led his team in scoring by 17 points, and led the next-highest scorer on defense (Burns) by 16 points. This year, Burns has 59 points in 57 games (4th in NHL scoring), is leading his team in scoring by 11 points, and leads the next-highest scorer on defense (Karlsson) by 14 points. Aside from the goals and overall team strength, not all that much difference - but the Norris front runner all last season was Doughty, whereas there hasn't been much talk of anyone but Burns winning it this year.

Doughty became the Norris frontrunner when it became clear that Ottawa wasn't a playoff team, but not any time before that. I'd say most of the year Karlsson was ahead whenever there were Norris articles, right until near the end of the year. Karlsson wins Norris near unanimously and gets a Hart nomination if Ottawa is a playoff team instead of pretty out of the picture.

As for the Hart, there's also no Kane blowing away everyone else. Currently McDavid is in the league lead but is under 90 point pace, so they won't necessarily default to forward, especially if Burns is basically right there. And if Burns falls off the pace or the Sharks go on a big losing streak than we'll hear rumblings about the Norris.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2017 17:10

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

ThinkTank posted:

Crosby has a 1.25ppg (103 point pace over 82) and should be the slam dunk winner.

If he misses a few more games or his pace drops off a bit than he ceases to be a slam dunk winner. The voters historically have cared far less about pace than actual season end totals.

ThinkTank posted:

Yeah, Karlsson was as good or better and apparently that didn't even warrant serious Norris consideration. Karlsson finished 9th in Hart trophy voting last year for arguably as good a season. Burns is not doing anything especially unusual or outlandish, and even considering him for the Hart trophy would be pretty much unprecedented post-lockout. No defenceman has been a Hart trophy finalist since before the cancelled season, and no one has finished above 8th since Lidstrom was 4th in 07/08.

If Burns was on pace to smash records or something then fine, but he's essentially at the same level as several other players in the last few years. Give him the Norris, he deserves it no question. I have no idea how he's the guy who's apparently going to buck the trend and be the first Hart trophy winning defenceman since Pronger 17 years ago.

e: to be clear, the Hart trophy has been awarded to two defencemen since Hitler died. Bobby Orr (3 times) and Pronger. I just don't feel like Brent Burns should be added to that list.

I absolutely think that making the playoffs is a big part of it. I mean, for the purposes of Norris consideration, Karlsson won the previous year with 66 points when Doughty had the same season with no playoffs. There's never been a Norris winner who didn't make the playoffs, and they didn't get nominated for several decades before the last 3 years.

At some point you'd hope they'd consider more defensemen for the Hart. Lidstrom never getting nominated was absolutely ridiculous, particularly in 07/08, In the case of Burns we're talking about him being nominated over guys that he's currently ahead of or a point/2 behind, and conceivably could be ahead of by the end of the season. It's not that uncommon for the voters to just go right down the scoring list anyways.

We're also not going to see any records smashed by defensemen for the same reason we won't see any smashed by forwards.

Spring Break My Heart fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 13, 2017

# ¿ Feb 13, 2017 17:33

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

grack posted:

Ain't it great that Therrien's gonna get fired after Bergevin traded away a legitimate star player and a fan favourite to appease him?

Bergevin hated him too, and legitimately prefers Weber.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2017 18:45

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

iospace posted:

Let me think of an owner-

Nope. Can't.

Ok, /maybe/ Mark Cuban and whoever owns the Warriors. But I can't think of any others.

Hard no on both counts.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2017 00:54

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

On a scale of 1 to 10, how regrettable is Lucic's contract going to be? At least a 9, right?

# ¿ Feb 14, 2017 18:13

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Infidel Castro posted:

He could wind up being a top pairing guy someday

In what, the Czech league?

# ¿ Feb 15, 2017 21:04

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Jordan7hm posted:

Maybe for Ottawa? He's pretty tall, definitely worth taking a flyer on him being a perfect match for Karlsson. He can be the defensive conscience.

He's awful.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2017 21:23

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Pittsburgh was broke as hell in the late 90's/2000's before Crosby, shedding big players like crazy from their good days until they had a frighteningly low payroll and Dick Tarnstrom was their leading scorer. There was some expectation that they would move to KC. Lemieux got ownership stake because they owed him so much money from his playing days.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2017 18:02

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Slappy Pappy posted:

Or if he tried when he was in DC?

He did, and was very good there.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2017 06:38

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

VJeff posted:

lmao 45 years old.

Forty loving five.

He's literally the greatest non-Gretzky non-Howe player of all time, right?

I mean, he was on the same team as Lemieux for quite a long time, and you'd have to be insane to suggest he was better.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2017 18:41

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Pancakes by Mail posted:

Anyone not ranking Gretzy #1 is being transparently contrarian and boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-0rHnnS7U8

# ¿ Feb 18, 2017 21:12

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Pornographic Memory posted:

"lets see him play for a couple decades like gordie howe before we make any claims about how great gretzky is "

i kind of love reading and watching people rip on gretzky just because it sounds so out there these days

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/net.sport.hockey/VzS91ZPzFU0

# ¿ Feb 19, 2017 00:13

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Sharks Eat Bear posted:

Honest question -- is there a more unbreakable individual record in modern major sports than Gretzky's scoring lead?

There are quite a few that have a lot to do with the time they played in. Like I think Cy Young's record for pitcher wins is unbreakable because he got in over 100 years ago no pitcher will ever be used that often again. Or in the NBA you have rebound records for Wilt that won't ever be touched because there are considerably fewer opportunities for rebounds now than there were before, without even getting into the specifics of Wilt's dominance. Hell, Glenn Hall's record for consecutive games for a goalie is going to be impossible to break as it stands, since what goaltender is ever going to get the chance to go a full season starting? I think it's likelier that there's a new scoring wave in the NHL followed by a Gretzky level talent coming in to an Oilers level team, even if it is still obscenely unlikely.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2017 01:17

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Levitate posted:

Eichel is really good at it's probably a bit of a shame that he'll be overlooked compared to some of the other guys like McDavid, Matthews, Laine, etc

Getting hurt to start this year didn't help for sure

If he actually turns into a superstar he won't be overlooked.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 21:42

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

DJExile posted:

what's easily the worst division in the league

The Atlantic has a better collective goal differential and more points per team than either West division despite playing the only good division more.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 22:00

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Aye Doc posted:

so with the news that the Lakers are about to get ruined by Magic Johnson for the indeterminate future, I was thinking about former franchise greats who came back to drive their franchise down down down. the obvious one is Linden in Vancouver, I'd say Neely in Boston is on his way, and that's about it for current ones. who else has done this?

Kevin Lowe + the other 20 Glory Day Oilers collecting cheques

# ¿ Feb 22, 2017 03:07

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Lots of teams just hire former stars for cushy jobs so they can pal around with corporate sponsors, attend celebrity golf games with team branded equipment and maybe offer guidance to the rookies.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2017 07:55

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

Wow, Hainsey has really hung in there.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2017 17:14

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 18:02

Spring Break My Heart: Feb 15, 2012

ThinkTank posted:

In sad news:

https://twitter.com/Ourand_SBJ/status/834814123275907072

At worst they'll be back in Canada with better deals than when they left.

That feels like Fox Sports is giving up.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2017 18:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > NHL N/V February: Therrien, Therrien So Far Away

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