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nerdman42 posted:It would've been a perfectly addition/replacement for that flashback scene in episode 1 where Ashi goes to the window At first, when she was creeping up on him, I thought that was what we were going to flash back to. The ladybug scene and Ashi suddenly seeing the challenge to her worldview works and is generally the right idea, but yeah execution was a little spotty and missed an opportunity to connect directly to an earlier episode. I also thought having the Mother's voice echo that "no place in Aku's order!" line while Ashi looked at Jack was a bit excessive considering we heard her say it like 20 seconds ago.
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Apr 9, 2017 23:25
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Seems pretty obvious Jack's following Samurai Grim Reaper to take himself out of the picture, since he's snapped at the thought that his ongoing existence is causing net suffering because he'll never defeat Aku but by his struggling against Aku innocent people are being harmed. The whole "they chose their path" justification he used when fighting the Daughters has fallen apart as he's gotten to know Ashi and it's obvious they never really had a choice and then those alien children are forced to attack him too, whether they were actually alive at the end wasn't as important as the traumatic thought that he's the catalyst for their suffering. We saw the armoured suit guy explain they'd deliberately chosen to use children, knowing Jack wouldn't be able to fight back, so at least a few people have figured out Jack's real weakness by now. It's a little ironic that this is being done in Aku's name and Aku himself probably has no idea. He hardly even seems to care. Aku's evil empire is self-maintaining in a way that's somehow even more grinding than if Aku had personally directed these latest attempts to kill Jack. It sort of drives home the futility of Jack's resistance that he isn't even threatening Aku anymore. At the same time, Ashi is learning the opposite lesson, and by seeing the children survived (who obviously parallel her experience) then resistance against Aku is possible after all.
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Apr 17, 2017 23:26
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Dude scatted all the way down the side of that hill he got kicked off of, he can mug all he wants. Episode was good. With the way Ashi emphasized the good Jack'd done over the course of his battles against Aku, I'm expecting the big final conflict will be Jack having the opportunity to either go back in time and defeat Aku when he was supposed to, undoing Aku but also everyone he'd met, or else accept the current timeline and try to rebuild post-Aku. He might've beaten the green samurai representing the crushing sense of failure and dishonor but Blue Jack might come around to agitate for completing his original mission. I really liked the nostalgic journey stuff since it really has been years, so it was fun to be reminded of those old episodes, and hopefully if there's a final battle with a big army of old allies there's more to come.
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Apr 23, 2017 07:55
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This was pretty much the best use of "nostalgia/fanservice" to advance the larger story and the overall theme of the show possible. If the original run hadn't ended when it did and this season had instead directly followed (with less blood, probably) it'd probably go down much the same way, with a showcase of all the differences Jack's made over the course of his years-long struggle to defeat Aku. The central premise of the show is Samurai Jack's tension between doing whatever it takes to get home and undo Aku while still doing the right thing in a timeline he's ultimately trying to erase. It's a classic sort of time traveler's dilemma, and for that to work both the hero and the audience needs to buy into the future timeline setting and its characters enough that we wouldn't want to see them erased. Leaning on the sentimentality of nostalgia is an effective way of doing that. I hope it turns out the Scotsman's ghost can see Blue Brain Ghost Jack so they can have a roaring argument about whether Jack should go through with his mission or simply defeat Aku in the present. I think he might have an interesting perspective on events considering he's dead and might survive in a revised timeline but may want the present to continue for his daughters' sake.
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Apr 24, 2017 00:40
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ChairMaster posted:That was resolved in the first episode when Aku hadn't gone after Jack in years. It's easy to assume that Jack killed the poo poo outta everyone who came at him before Scaramouche. Also we still haven't seen how he actually lost the sword, which might clear up why he's been able to hide its' loss. It's not even clear yet how long ago he lost it, he started the season decked out in gear so he'd plainly been getting by without it well enough for a while, but yeah, it's plausible he lost it some time after Aku started trying to wait him out, explaining their stalemate. Onmi posted:I think Jack will go back to the past, and then we'll time skip to the Future-present where he's gotten back there the long-way around, meeting an Ashi who didn't grow up in horrible circumstances. It's totally possible that they'll have Jack get to the past, prevent the bad timeline, then show a good one where people like Ashi and her sisters are around and don't have an awful life. I think that's a weaker message though, and that they're already positioning to underline that Jack actually going back in time will come at the cost of the future he's defended for 50 years. He saved Ashi's life by showing her the truth about Aku, but what if her and her sisters might never be born in the no-Aku timeline? They were products of the cult, after all, it might not even be able to recreate the circumstances of their birth. It sets up some tension which I think Blue Jack will ultimately embody. He appears as Jack is meant to be, shaming Jack for failing his mission, so if from this point on Jack gets back on track and everything goes swimmingly with his original goal then there's not much need for internal tension anymore. If Jack has doubts about whether he should actually go through with changing the past, though, then there's room for conflict with his sense of guilt and responsibility. It opens up space for hearing other peoples' opinion on the subject; the Scotsman may not want the timeline changed if it might mean losing his daughters. This theme's shown up in the series before. Jack's had opportunities to get back to the past that he's passed up in favor of doing the right thing in the present. Heck, just generally, the way he constantly risks his own life to save people runs completely counter to his mission to go back in time and stop Aku at the source. Blue Jack even criticizes him for trying to save Ashi as a distraction. This is all speculation, of course. But I do think the season so far and the last episode in particular has drawn attention to what "getting back to the past" would actually entail, and if it were just a matter of beating on Aku then it might be pretty straightforward from this point on.
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Apr 24, 2017 07:32
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I've got a feeling they're not going to do any sort of time loop ending, because those suck, and Jack's quest being futile from the start isn't really the sort of positive note you bring a franchise back from a decade-plus hiatus to deliver. By the same token, I really don't think he'll just get back to the past and defeat Aku, thus erasing the current present, since it makes all this development of other characters and the setting Jack's helped so far kind of pointless. This very last episode was about Jack despairing because if he can't undo Aku then he's accomplished nothing and Ashi convinces him that the good he's done along the way has been worthwhile, a message that loses its power if he just undoes that too in the end.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:36
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They might go for the split timeline thing but that sort of feels like a copout, since it's a sort of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation where Jack can be a hero in the Aku present and save the past and there's no tension between those two goals. It also means Jack doesn't really have any more dilemmas to wrestle with aside from just being able to beat Aku in a fight. Which is maybe okay, that's a tall enough order and if it involves his friends and allies then it can be plenty satisfying, but a lot of energy's gone into setting up Jack's internal conflict so far and it's hard to say for sure that simply defeating the green samurai was the end of them. Ashi in particular seems to embody this conflict, and I don't think we've seen the last of her challenging Jack's worldview yet.
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Apr 24, 2017 21:34
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You ride one talking penis...Sammus posted:Jack and an army of everyone he has helped beat the poo poo out of future Aku in a truly epic battle, then he waves at the survivors and they say their goodbyes. Maybe he says something about going back to the past to right all of Aku's wrongs, then he jumps through a portal and kills Past Aku. Those are my predictions. I think Timeless Appeal's right that they've been building toward the idea that hope lives even in Aku's future. If the original series had concluded normally then they might've done it that way, maybe have Aku destroy the whole world in his final pursuit of Jack so the way is clear for him to go back and undo everything without unintended consequences, but this revival's practically been a deconstruction of the original and its setting. They've been playing things too seriously to pretend like nobody'd consider the larger implications if Jack simply goes back and defeats Aku without addressing what that does to the future. All the effort put into Ashi in particular pretty much demands either this timeline continue or at least some kind of "split timeline" thing, any ending where Jack defeats Aku in the present with his friends' help then says "welp I'm going back to the past to erase you all from the timestream, peace out" would be crazy whiplash.
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Apr 25, 2017 05:58
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Scaramouch's second purpose is being a faint ray of comic relief trying to lighten the mood when the topic is shame-induced ritual suicide.
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Apr 28, 2017 01:37
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I did like the reminder that Ashi and the Daughters were actually pretty well-trained murder machines, they just got sent after the murderingest machine of all. And of course Ashi would beat the Mother (it wasn't even particularly close) since if she'd been stronger than her daughters in the first place then she'd have been the one to go after Jack. Still a bit surprised they took out Jack's angry inner voice thing so "early", but I guess they're tight on time. Going back to the classic look sort of suggests he's put to bed his earlier internal conflict so I guess it might be fairly smooth sailing, character-wise, from this point. Edit: the main thing about the cute goats is they attacked him due to Aku's magic and Jack killed them to vent his frustrations over his own failure. Hunting for food in nature is normal enough, but lashing out in anger like that violates Jack's own ethics.
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Apr 30, 2017 10:03
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Imagine I posted that one comic about the wizard who conjures a bunch of shotguns for no reason here.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:46
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tsob posted:Can I just ask you to post it for realsies, because I've no idea what that comic is but it sounds fun. Edit: beaten http://gunshowcomic.com/30 Also Scaramouch is gonna be in for it now, when he tells Aku Jack lost his sword and gets Aku off his rear end only to walk face-first into the Definitely-Sword-Having Samurai.
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Apr 30, 2017 18:07
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I liked it, but I can't say it was great time budgeting. Like if they want a romantic subplot they might as well have that on the way to wherever they're going. Then again, Samurai Jack isn't normally known for being compressed, even when time budget is a factor.
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May 7, 2017 07:59
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Eh, it was a bit clunky to spend a whole episode on just this, and in such a silly "whoops, they're naked, how awkward!" way, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about them being in a relationship. The slight goofiness actually made it feel more like an old Samurai Jack episode, it seems like being restored and regaining his sword made Jack act a lot more like his original self instead of the world-weary apocalyptic survivor he was for most of the season. In fact, the whole premise of wandering into some random monster by chance was a lot more like an original Samurai Jack episode, and if this were a full-length season or a full "however many seasons we want" revival I'd say it would've fit in fine.
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May 7, 2017 16:34
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The real question is what new outfit is Ashi gonna get now that her woodland look is gone. Or is Jack gonna see out the rest of the series in his underwear? Maybe there's some sci-fi armor in the downed ship.
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May 7, 2017 17:12
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I don't know, I think there's an audience for whom "the suffering continues" will resonate.
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May 7, 2017 18:35
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Is it a spoiler to discuss the next-episode hint? Because if we can see past this episode a bit, I think if he's going to confront the Guardian and try to use his time portal, something'll happen to Ashi at the same time with Aku and that'll be what sets up the decision for Jack between taking the portal or accepting the present as-is and going to defeat Aku. He can face that dilemma, choose to stay in the present, then hook up with the Scotsman who's gone around recruiting everybody into an army to take on Aku. Which sounds like something they could pull off pretty smoothly in 40 minutes. I don't think the relationship is pointless, since it gives Jack a much more personal and embodied connection to the present than the broader coalition of friends he's made by helping people. When Ashi went around meeting people Jack had helped, it did make the point that the present was not a world beyond saving, but it also showed that Jack himself isn't tethered in it, that he travels alone and apart from the people he's helped. Throughout the series Jack has helped people and put himself in danger even though his mission would ultimately make any good he does counterproductive. Aku threatening Ashi brings this contradiction to a head and can present him with a clear choice. It's tempting to be reductive and say "Jack will condemn everyone in the past because he fell in love", but in this case I think Ashi could be more like a catalyst to get Jack to see the present in a different light. Jack has been trapped in the past, in a sense, and cannot see the potential of the present or the right of those in it to define it outside of Aku's influence. He just sees his own failure and the need to go back and fix it. Some kind of personal relationship is a good step toward trying to move forward with his life.
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May 7, 2017 23:47
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Sjs00 posted:i dunno, killing the person that ruined your life since the moment you were born and then joining in killing the next person who ruined your life would probably make someone 'get better' It's a bit simplistic, but yeah, I don't usually expect a fantasy/sci-fi adventure series to present a serious portrait of overcoming a lifetime of abusive conditioning. Assassins raised to kill a hero joining them instead is par for the course, I don't think Samurai Jack ever sold itself as a deconstruction or heavily concerned with realism. I guess the tone of the season so far and the long break since the original may have led to mixed expectations, since it started from such a dark place with Jack traumatized by his failures. He seemed to really be carrying those fifty years of failures, whereas since regaining the sword he's basically back to his old self. It's been years since I've seen the original show I recall Jack being the sort of guy who'd get flustered or be a little lighthearted, which contributed to the episode feeling more like one of the old plot-light, monster-of-the-week ones. Edit: Moon Slayer posted:listen. im not upset jack and ashi ended up together because i wanted them to be gay, im upset because i didnt want any relationship at all I might be stepping on a rake here but I don't think a man and a woman not being friends doesn't mean that men and women can't be friends, just that these two aren't. I do think some kind of personal relationship between Ashi and Jack helps sell the idea that Jack has reasons to consider staying in the present rather than go back to the past (assuming that's where the story is going), and it could've been some other kind of connection - if they'd stuck to playing Jack as an older, weary mentor figure, then a mentor/student or surrogate father/daughter relationship may have also worked - but it helps having a specific person embody Jack's reason to stay and a romantic relationship does do that. Edit2: Oh, hey Moon Slayer! I didn't recognize you at first! Dolash fucked around with this message at 03:03 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 02:59
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Moon Slayer posted:The fact that I can drop unsourced tumblr posts into the thread and they don't stand out should tell you something about the level of discourse in TVIV. I'll admit, the grammar threw me. I don't want to dismiss people who may be tired of male and female lead romances though, I think it's fair to want to see both a greater variety in relations between men and women and a greater diversity in romantic ones, but I wouldn't hold it against a particular series if they don't. The episode certainly had some other issues either way.
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May 8, 2017 03:28
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Jellymouth posted:It's not even the romance itself I didn't care for in the most recent episode, it was the weird way in which it was handled. Just cut it down to like a tenth of each. One awkward hand brush, keep the bit with the hats, and maybe one flustered wardrobe malfunction moment with the leeches (that doesn't drag on). Would've gotten the point across about as well. Keep the song though. The song is Good.
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May 8, 2017 05:25
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Das Boo posted:I accept this more than the "but he has no reason to stay unless he's in a romantic relationship" nonsense. I don't know who was making the argument that he has no reason to stay unless he's in a relationship, but from a writing perspective a relationship does help bring all those other connections together into one person and one question. When Jack was preparing to take his own life, it was because he understood his mission only as undoing Aku, and if he couldn't do that then any further struggle was futile and only hurting the people around him. Ashi saw the many people he had helped and talked him out of it by highlighting what he'd done in the present, helping both them and her. There was a gap there that someone had to bridge. Strictly speaking it doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, but it should be a personal one. If they'd stuck with the ragged, weary Jack even after he got his sword back, mentor to student could work just as well. A different take on the season could've had it be Jack partnered up with the elderly Scotsman, playing up their decades of cooperation and contrasting the Scotsman's connection to the world (ageing, children) to Jack's separation. Having someone to specifically represent Jack's investment in the present helps the theme of the show, in a way that just the broader coalition of acquaintances Jack's helped can't on its own.
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May 8, 2017 22:06
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Hypocrisy posted:Jack really should go back to the past. He can do whatever he wants for now but he better go back to the past. I guess we can't know for sure for another week or two but I'd maybe brace for disappointment on that point. The whole season's had a pretty big "letting go of the past, live in the present" angle. It'd be weird to spend so much time on the setting and people of Aku's present only for Jack to ultimately undo them, and any ending where he beats Aku in the future then goes back to beat him in the past to create two different timelines would be sort of a cop-out.
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May 9, 2017 03:05
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Man, I have to say I was really surprised about the direction the last two episodes went. After the season started by deconstructing the whole premise of the show, I was sure the finale was going to present Jack with the choice to go back and he'd choose to stay in the future, especially since they built up the people he'd saved and any ending where Jack erases them would feel weird tonally. But they just went ahead and did it anyway. I'd assumed if they were going to send Jack back they'd at least do something like a split timeline to deflect the consequences rather than just accept them outright. If this was the direction the season was headed, they probably should've embraced the darker angle of all Jack's friends having died over the 50 years so the future didn't seem worth saving anymore. Ending with a Grandfather Paradox was a little weak too. It's even a little disappointing that he doesn't actually beat Future Aku before he goes back. Strictly speaking he didn't have to, that Aku was erased with the rest of that timeline, but it's sort of unsatisfying to have the final confrontation with an Aku who isn't the same one from the rest of the series. It feels like in the end, Jack didn't learn anything from his experience. He returned and completed his mission exactly as he'd always meant to, and seemingly resumes a life he would've had before Aku showed up. The season arc may have started him in the gutter and followed him getting back on track, but that just led to Jack being his normal self again. Losing the love of his life is something he comes to accept and he seems ready to carry on. It's sort of the plainest way the series could end that adds nothing you couldn't already have guessed before they did the final season.
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May 21, 2017 07:32
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It really felt from the start that they were showcasing an internal conflict between Jack's guilt over failing his family in the past and all the good he'd achieved in his 50 years. Scenes like seeing people he failed floating down the river contrasted with a whole episode revisiting all the people he had since saved. It was really clearly shown when the crucial realization that Ashi brought him which kept him from killing himself was that he had done good after all even if he couldn't finish his mission. Why did it matter that he actually saved the kids in the weapon factory, if he was only going to erase them in the end anyway? Why did it matter through the whole run of the series that Jack went the extra mile to save and protect people even if that ran contrary to his whole goal? He lost the sword for lashing out at the innocent, but that judgement really rings hollow if he can erase his crimes. In this situation, a romantic subplot can work to be the catalyst that gets Jack to reevaluate his mission. I assumed right up until the end that they'd make the choice be between letting her die (and by implication, the whole future) or going back. The Scotsman also provides an obvious comparison where he's happy to die to protect his daughters' future, and could've made that argument to Jack, but as is he's just another cameo. I guess I assumed their reason for having a close relationship between Jack and someone from the future at all would be to address the whole "I'd never exist!" problem before Jack actually makes the decision, when it's an interesting challenge to the character's worldview and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate how they've changed.
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May 21, 2017 08:00
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Having Jack say he doesn't want Ashi to become a memory then making her and everyone he's known for 50 years exactly that is a really weird choice. Also message-wise just embracing "Your guilt was right, it was good to cling on to the failures of your past, sacrifice your present and future and you can fix it" looks bad. It even recasts Jack's decision to kill the Daughters, where it seemed like he was leaning toward being ruthless to survive but he spares Ashi and works to save her, now it looks like actually he should've listened to the voice in his head and left her behind.
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May 21, 2017 08:18
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That reminds me, the Stone Samurai Statue getting rocked and all the robot crew dying was surprisingly brutal. They seemed to pull their punches a bit in the shots of Aku ravaging the army, not showing blood again the way they did with the Daughters vs. Jack, but that one was rough.
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May 21, 2017 10:01
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Edit: ^^^^ I thought it was setting up this dilemma of what Jack was willing to do to get back to the past, and whether a future tainted by Aku was worth saving. He justified killing the daughters because he needed to carry on his mission for the Greater Good, but taking risks to save Ashi ran against that goal (which his inner voice criticized him for). It seemed like a lead-up to him realizing that if Ashi can be saved from Aku, the rest of the future could be too, and he'd been blinded by his need to go back and fix his own mistake to see the value of the future he'd been saving for 50 years. But instead uhhhh...raditts posted:Let's all just assume that they are all preserved in an Aku-less future thanks to ~*~celtic magic~*~ I thought there was something unintentionally comedic about Future Aku realizing "Oh shiiiit he went back to the past!", because it showed the timeline continuing past Jack going back for a few seconds, so you're left with either a world where Aku is still in power and Jack's abandoned everyone or a world where Aku gets to go "Oh fu-" then be unmade alongside everyone. There's just something strange about Jack returning to his old life. If they were going to go that route I wish they'd let Ashi live if only so something from his adventure would've lived on, except for Jack's memories nothing seems different for his journey than if he'd just struck Aku down in the first place. You could watch the first episode then the end of the last episode as a set and they'd probably work together fine, you wouldn't be missing anything. Dolash fucked around with this message at 17:28 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 17:26
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An alternate take on the ending. To be honest, I might've settled for the ending as they told if if they'd at least finished with a flash-forward to the new future, showing the alternate, prosperous versions of the people Jack met in the Aku-future. Could've even had Aku's Daughters for ~reasons~, maybe have some ancient moss-covered statue of Old King Jack sitting around.
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May 22, 2017 23:25
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Covok posted:Perhaps this is how it always has been, but I noticed a lot of people have trouble accepting a sad or bittersweet ending in general. I mean, it makes logical sense and I definitely noticed it way, way before this series' finale, but I do find it odd how people sometimes make up a happy ending in their head or try to deny a sad ending. The internet only made it more obvious people do this. I don't know, just felt like pointing it out. An unhappy ending is fine, but not all bittersweet outcomes are satisfying. For example, if Jack had sacrificed himself to defeat Aku in the future as a conscious choice to save his friends and Ashi rather than go back to his own time, that would be more satisfying as a culmination of an arc that demonstrated some growth from Jack where he'd changed, even if they don't get to live together afterward. Similarly, if Jack's friends in the future all died rescuing him and Ashi consciously sacrificed herself sending Jack back, that would also be a bittersweet ending where Jack honors their collective sacrifice by defeating Aku. Part of the problem with this ending is that it isn't actually all that bitter at all. Jack loses Ashi, but her whole existence and his attachment to her always ran contrary to his mission, and since he never ended up questioning his mission losing her was always supposed to be part of the price - if anything it was unfair that he got to briefly believe they could be together before she paradox'd out. No weight is put on the loss of his friends and the circumstances he loses Ashi over are contrived ("Oh poo poo, I shouldn't exi-"), and ultimately he decides he's over it and resumes his life as he'd always intended to. The whole Ashi drama and everything he experienced in the future have left very little lasting impression on Jack. While it's usually the journey that matters rather than the destination part of what makes that journey matter is how they changed along the way, regardless of whether they're happy or sad. Edit: You could show someone the first episode and then the last episode, starting from the point Jack returns to the past, and the whole thing would probably hang together fine. You could work out everything you need about Ashi from context, and otherwise Jack is the same as he was when he went through.
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May 23, 2017 20:32
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:If anything it's the other way around, at least in this case. The ending was so unsatisfying, it's only natural to try to imagine something better. (Null Profusion's idea of a running time travel battle, for instance, is rad as hell.) I think it was the other way around in that Genndy may have had a loose idea of how he wanted the series to end from the start, and may not have stopped to reassess it in light of the final season they actually wrote.
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May 24, 2017 03:59
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It seems odd to even bother acknowledging him if they weren't going to reference that vision of Future Jack as an old warrior king. I mean it's easy enough to dismiss as just a possible future or something, but it'd be just as easy to have Jack head to Aku's tower to fight him there and skip the Guardian altogether. I liked that one idea someone posted of Old King Jack trying to get past the Guardian in the past so he could get back to the future, ending with something like that would've been cool. Or doing something where he starts aging again and realizes he has to either get past the Guardian now or else defeat future Aku with his remaining time. Otherwise though just sort of wasted.
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May 24, 2017 22:44
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Guy Mann posted:I have my issues with the current ending but it's still better than letting a throw-away shot at the end of an episode 13 years ago dictate how the show should actually end. Blind adherence to The Canon above all else is storytelling poison, especially for something that for the overwhelming majority of its existence wasn't actually serialized in and meaningful way. If that were true, like I said, why not ignore the Guardian entirely? Blind adherence is feeling the need to acknowledge it anyway even if doing so will just raise more questions than answers. It's not like Jack had to be in that junkyard to confront Aku, he could've just gone straight to the tower. The bit with the Guardian didn't contribute as much as many of the other cameos and references for that reason.
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May 28, 2017 10:07
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