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I do have to wonder why it matters why someone helps out another if you're pretending to be a utilitarian.
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Mar 7, 2017 18:53
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Oh dear me posted:The number three is 'literally immaterial', but I'm not going to chuck arithmetic out of the window. Wait so if they did it because they beleive that its a good thing in their service to higher power its bad because they must fear.
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Mar 7, 2017 19:22
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twodot posted:This is dumb. Anyone who thinks actions are good is going to want more good actions and less other actions. People directly valuing good actions over other actions is a clearly more scalable mechanism over people valuing good actions only because they fear an outcome worse than performing the effort to do good actions. So people valuing good actions and spreading the value of valuing good actions is itself good. And that's without getting into whether having a bunch of people living under irrational fears is itself good regardless of whether it spurs them to perform good actions. Yes so you should insult those people who do so out of what you believe is evil.
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Mar 7, 2017 20:02
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twerking on the railroad posted:I think that reading this thread has made me feel it's more likely that the left is hostile to religion. It's convinced me that Sandernista's should make wearing a fedora without a proper suit should make you liable for expulsion from the movement.
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Mar 8, 2017 05:45
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twodot posted:What religion are you thinking of where many denominations don't make empirical claims? I think almost all Christian denominations claim Jesus actually physically existed. Yeah Jesus Mysticism really makes you look like a bit of an idiot.
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Mar 8, 2017 06:02
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I don't get why any atheists like Sam Harris while saying Religion causes people to want to murder Considering western atheism certainly makes Sam Harris want to murder a few million Iranians.
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Mar 8, 2017 06:08
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twodot posted:So given that magisteriums don't overlap, science is totally incapable of showing a person named Jesus didn't exist in that time and place, regardless of what evidence science might produce? What evidence has it produced if you're so sure Jesus didn't exist because SCIENCE?
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Mar 8, 2017 06:20
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twodot posted:None, this has nothing to do with the question asked. Science can't answer questions like "Is feeding people good?", but it can answer questions like "Is the sky blue?" even if all available evidence says "Yes". And all the available evidence says Jesus existed.
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Mar 8, 2017 06:25
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twodot posted:Suppose someone invented a time machine and performed a census of that time and location, would you still think science couldn't show a person named Jesus didn't exist in that time and place? I assume that in doing this they do not in any way aler the time line right? Or maybe one of them realizes no Jesus exists so then they become Jesus restoring the timeline.
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Mar 8, 2017 06:38
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I can tell someone who talks of the dark ages doesn't actually know any history. The only part of the world that was "dark" was western europe and this was due to specific breakdown of institutions of government. The rest of the world did alright (Well up till the Mongols came). Also to the rest about America being this backward nation you actually think religion did that? Yeah America may be ground zero for Neoliberal destruction but thats now happening all over Europe, and yet it is somehow religionsfault for the destructivness of neoliberalism? Despite the fact Neoliberalisms designers were mostly agnostics? On Israel yeah certainly some Calvis help back some ofthe actions but I know plenty of atheist neocons who also back that nation, hell I know plenty of the same who back Saudi Arabia. Also lol about slavery, you know plenty in the enlightenment advocated scientifically for blacks to be endowed with characteristics that made them enjoy or need bondage right? To the fct that many are hypocrites, so are most humans.
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Mar 22, 2017 07:11
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The Kingfish posted:Interstellar colonization is not a priority because capital determines the goals of our society. If you want to go to the stars, smash capital.
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Mar 22, 2017 07:16
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Bates posted:Non-religious arguments for slavery exist but they are inconsistent with the popular movements of secular morality. You know secular morality was at one time based explicitly on racial hirarchy right?
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Mar 22, 2017 17:35
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Bates posted:I had no idea and I don't really see mentions of racial hierarchy in any of the early humanist manifestos for instance but I'll take your word for it. I'm not particularly concerned with what it used to be - the principles as laid out by secular humanism today is inconsistent with slavery and more generally oppression. The Bible on the other hand is, and always will be, in favor of slavery and misogyny. Read Voltaire and Hume then get back to me. Also secular humanism today also has a big boner for mass war against non secular humanists considering the number that love Hitchens and Harris.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:30
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Cingulate posted:I've not read Voltaire, but I'd like to think I'm not completely uninformed about Hume and I don't see what you're going for here? "(And one could say that if their intelligence is not of another species than ours, then it is greatly inferior. They are not capable of paying much attention; they mingle very little, and they do not appear to be made either for the advantages or the abuses of our philosophy.)" "(And it is a big question whether among them they are descendants of monkeys, or if monkeys come from them. Our wise men have said that man is the image of God: behold a pleasant image of the eternal Being with a flat black nose, with little or no intelligence! A time will come, without a doubt, when these animals will know how to cultivate the earth well, to embellish it with houses and gardens, and to know the routes of the stars. Time is a must, for everything.) " Hume "«I am apt to suspect the Negroes, and in general all other species of men, to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was any civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures among them, no arts, no sciences... Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction between these breeds of men»" Also Kant The Negroes of Africa have not received any intelligence from Nature that rises above foolishness. Mr. Hume challenges anyone to suggest even one example of a negro who has displayed any talent. As he himself verifies, among the hundreds of thousands of blacks who have wandered far away from their homelands, even though many of them have been liberated, not one exists who has succeeded in anything great, either in the arts or the sciences or in any other noteworthy thing. On the contrary, among the whites, people continuously rise above the low point that they were and they evolve through their superior qualifications, attaining worldly fame. The difference therefore between the two races is an essential one: It appears to be equally big, both with regard to the capabilities of the mind, as well as to the color.) Also I love that you're only defence of a blood thirsty mad man like Hitchens is he's dead. Also you defend Harris because he only suggest we use nukes on possibly one middle eastern nation. The superiority you assume that your belief there is no god gives you is quite hilarious. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 21:33
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I can definitely conclude from this topic that some members of the secularists are hostile to history.
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Mar 23, 2017 00:14
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Panzeh posted:History is not stones sitting on the ground or stained glass or whatever's engraved on an old ceiling. History is what we do as human beings. Actually if you destroy those stones can anyone tell that such a place ever existed? Also I was referring to the secularists ignoring the racist history that has accompanied those who declare that reason is why they commit their actions. Also if the rationalization for colonialism was made by the men who are the prophets of the enlightenment and many in fact did well through such exploitation that calls into question their whole reasons for all their reasoning.
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Mar 23, 2017 01:27
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RasperFat posted:Lol the rationalism for colonialism was spreading the glory of the crown. They came up with secular arguments to try to justify their royalty (Divine right) driven genocide. The third Republic had a monarch?
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Mar 23, 2017 02:16
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Bates posted:If your point is that we can arrive at morally abhorrent views through secular means then you are right but then I don't think anyone here has suggested that we can't or that it's exclusively the domain of religion. Death cults and racists exist. So what? Is your defense of religion just that it's possible for secularism to be equally bad? Hey thats fine you're still ignoring God. My main thing is people ignoring history and pushing western enlightenment narratives. Rudatron, death comes outside of the garden.
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Mar 23, 2017 05:29
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Agnosticnixie posted:Also the third republic only started veering towards the hard secularism of modern France in the 20th century. The first governments of the third were largely conservatives and monarchists who couldn't agree on who should be the king. All the way to the interwar period the implication that a presidential candidate was an atheist was sufficient to hurt him massively in the polls. But they were still a secular government. One that practiced imperialism. Also the thing that drove imperialism of the 19th century was a desire to secure resources for Capital.
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Mar 23, 2017 06:57
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Agnosticnixie posted:It's a pity imperialism was invented in the 19th century. Oh wow now you're suggesting the secular drive to conquer was earlier.
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Mar 23, 2017 07:06
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Panzeh posted:If he's God, he didn't really die, now did he? It's a phony sacrifice. When the revolutionary sacrifices himself to bomb a czar, he is done. He only lives in the memory of others. When Jesus dies, who cares? He's God. Well he did actually die, and go into hell.
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Mar 23, 2017 19:16
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Who What Now posted:For a whopping three days, big deal. At least when Elvis died for my sins he had the decency to stay dead. Well he's just waiting for the day of judgement.
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Mar 23, 2017 21:35
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Who What Now posted:Wasn't that supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his disciples? No this is the age of the church only when it ends will he return.
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Mar 23, 2017 22:22
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Who What Now posted:Then shouldn't you be trying to destroy the church to bring about salvation? You can't force the hand of God. Only heretics like Lahaye believe that.
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Mar 23, 2017 23:26
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Who What Now posted:So then I don't have the free will to actively work against God's plan? When did i say that you could not have free will?
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Mar 24, 2017 04:14
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Who What Now posted:When you said I can't force the hand of God. Well in the sense that you can't bring about judgement day. God decides that, you cannot create the conditions because that is entirely up to God.
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Mar 24, 2017 06:48
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Tonetta posted:So is Donald the second coming? Cause he's gonna start throw down three Perhapse he will start ww3 , but I doubt that.Of course I also recognize that the word of God will continue even if Man or the Earth shall perish.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:20
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Tonetta posted:Well I'm glad that you worship a deity whose image is relatable to a 5yo with magnifying glass and a lighter next to an ant hill.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:57
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RasperFat posted:Because that's exactly what a 5 year old burning an anthill does? A destructive petulant being destroys the lives of millions without batting an eye. Then the actual workers are left to rebuild things. Actually it means there would be no one to rebuild as everything ceaces to exist as we know it. Who What Now posted:If it's completely arbitrary and up to god then what does it matter that we're in the "age of the church"? Because we are. That's the whole point of the Crucifixion.
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Mar 24, 2017 18:06
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RasperFat posted:Christian end of times philosophies are so loony. Why couldn't another species take our place within a few hundred million years of evolution even if God did rapture all humans away? The rest of the Earth would be just fine. Or do you think God will take every paramecium, cockroach, slime mold, sea urchin, dog, etc. into heaven along with humans? Did I ever mention that heretical idea, the rapture? Also if there are others out there I am willing to consider God has let them know of God's presence.
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Mar 24, 2017 19:50
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OwlFancier posted:I think that in looking to oppose sexual repression, some positions seem to come rather close to mandating public sexuality, which I think should be entirely elective. This is actually a very good point. In fact some of those who may take up some sort of monastic vocation may be Aesexual. (I have a friend who is helping me throuighsome of my own demons, who is planning to commit himself to a monastic life, he says he thinks based on his own life that he isn't sure he swings either way). So then saying that their bad for doing so is actually arguably as oppressive as someone advocating banning gay marriage.
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Mar 24, 2017 23:06
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Who What Now posted:What the hell does this even mean? How could you mandate public sexuality? Burini ban for instance.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:00
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Agnosticnixie posted:Yes, I'm sure Morocco is trying to mandate public sexuality.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:12
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Agnosticnixie posted:I do not support bans, I'm not against them, it entirely depends on the circumstances.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:18
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Hmm. I notice Russia is high on that list. A great bastion of reason and social democracy, that Russia.
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Mar 27, 2017 05:49
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RasperFat posted:Hmmm I notice that I specifically pointed that out. Take an honest comparison of the bottom and top quartiles against each other in aggregate. Hmm, I wonder if perhaps rather than obsessing whether a place is religious or not, you should instead try to be concerned whether people are starving or being ground down by bad regimes. Just a suggestion. I mean I know its easier to say. "THEIR DUMBOS AND LIVE HORRIBLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RATIONAL LIKE ME". But maybe you need to delve deeper than such thinking. Also I would hardly call New Hampshire a bastion of leftism. Also Wisconsin is ground zero for Koch related sociopathy in America. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 06:41
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RasperFat posted:You seem to have a serious issue understanding trends and outliers.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:12
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RasperFat posted:Real problems? You mean like the prevalent rape culture in the United States? Like defunding and dismissing education? Like gender equality? Like climate change denial? All of these giant societal problems that are heavily entwined with religion? Climate Change? Really? I mean it cannot be that there are people who have a interest in pushing it so they can protect their financial success. Also while I want to get rid of rape culture suggesting its a problem because of religion rather then poverty. (Like in the case of Russia, and Bulgaria). Education. I mean there are certain Chrisitan types that are part of this problem. But then a big push at killing education has been neoliberals who tend to be aligned with secularism.. Now Gneder equality I admit the churches, could work on but the rest seems to be you trying to find reasons to pretend to be superior to others. Rather then address problems at their core, income inequality.
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Mar 27, 2017 07:40
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RasperFat posted:You don't think energy group think tanks used religion as a tool to spread climate change denial? It's part and parcel to being and evangelical American Christian. 1. THey do, but they also enable secualr group that spread the gospel of Ayn Rand, which is not about prayer to God, or Gods. 2. So because some idiots screama bout Sola Scriptora that means we need to wipe out religion. 3. Well if you're going to bring up the destruction of education and blame it on religion when jsut as much has to do with neoliberals believing students need skin in the game, and wnat to destroy teachers unions I think you should be called out. 4. When social equality means screaming at people for praying that's not an "equality" I can in anyway support.
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Mar 27, 2017 08:37
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RasperFat posted:1. Of course they do but it's nowhere near as effective. Prosperity gospel is believed by 25% of the poor in America and that's a serious impediment to implementing leftist economic agenda. 1. Prove that many beleive the prosperity gospel. 2. It is criticized. Also its hardly revered. Well except for the Pope. 3. Well don'tbe blaming it for stuff that are caused by the neoliberals. 4. Also people are free to speak about how they think religion is ridiculous they've been doing that alot lately. Interestingly quite a few of them also use such ideas to push really horrible stuff like imperialism and neoliberalism. All through rational means this time of course. Sorry if I am skeptical of you, but the number of athiests I have encountered who have been devotees of Hitchens, Harris, and Maher makes me wary.
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Mar 27, 2017 10:46
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