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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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Crowsbeak posted:Look at how the majority of the centrists in this thread can't actually offer any defense for Perez lying about having a fifty state strateg. We're not. It was a stupid thing to say. There's no way in hell Dems are winning certain states, Kansas was one of them. Like the people there will soon shut down schools and the Republicans still won. Say what you will about GOTV, but if that doesn't make people go "ya know what, maybe it's time for something diffirent" well. And yeah, historically dems always got facefucked in kansas even on their best days. I don't know why the gently caress condiv is hyperventilating over this/
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Apr 12, 2017 17:37
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Condiv posted:no oxxidation just stalks me, he's not joshin. shut the gently caress up and take your lumps you made this thread so own it, don't be a bitch
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Apr 12, 2017 17:38
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Condiv posted:he was 6% off. with no local support and no national support. and the repubs put $100ks up against him cause they got scared. it was winnable He was 6% off in a close race in prob the most ideal conditions in a hick red state. If he didn't win then, he wouldn't have won ever. I look forward to your next thread about Alabama.
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Apr 12, 2017 17:45
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Condiv posted:no, the most ideal conditions would involve support from the dem party. Okay so say the dems put in money into Alabama's poo poo. When they inevitably lose because it's loving Alabama will you burst into another set of histrionics?
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Apr 12, 2017 17:51
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oh lol we are gonna be in for the long haul with you aren't we OPCondiv posted:Yep. Don't give money to state parties either cause the DNC will just hoover it up and spend it on Lena Dunham g af posts in D&D
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Apr 12, 2017 17:56
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OP just wants to blazt sum bizket while shitposting. let him have this. this is a safe space
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Apr 12, 2017 18:06
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Condiv posted:why is ossof funded to his hearts content while thompson wasn't given $20k? the only reason i can think of is cause the dems are nepotistic as hell and will only fund campaigns of people who've spent years chumming around with the establishment. only the idle rich can waste so much time making the connections the dems apparently require you to have to get any support from them, so the party is for the rich. Yeah man that's sorta the problem lol
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Apr 12, 2017 19:40
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So Condiv have you switched from Bizket to Linken Park? Lemme know when you're done with playing Crawlin' on loop and move onto Good Charlotte. Haven't heard that poo poo in years.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:46
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steinrokkan posted:Is this the centrist pushback? I'm actually left as gently caress I just don't tilt at windmills.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:48
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Maarek posted:When I used to read evilweasel's D&D posts back in the day I would think "I wish he would just talk like a human being instead of a robotic lawyer" and I guess a monkey's paw somewhere closed because his normal personality is a thousand times worse. His posts are fine, he's just telling people not to clutch pearls and eat each other. Condiv posted:not sure, but it's not like they didn't offer him support in other areas as well: like look at this poo poo. Oh if only he had one staffer, a penny for the poor please surely we could take redneck kansas if we do thaaaaaaat
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Apr 12, 2017 19:53
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axeil posted:I am just loving amazed that people are taking a 20 point swing from 2016 and somehow painting it as DEMOCRATS BAD. I'll guess CENTRISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's basically like the left's version of GLOBALISTS!!! VVV case in point
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Apr 12, 2017 19:55
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Majorian posted:I don't know, personally. While it may not be replicable in all districts or states, I think it's a big sign that the Dems should run hard on economic populism, because even a little of it can go a long way. Whoah easy there bud that's a dangerously good post for this poo poo thread! We're still not up to Evanescence on our teenager pandora trip for you to start doing that! Typo posted:lol did anyone think hillary was gonna be tough on the hated banks after her secret speeches to goldman sucks? Putin bots aren't even trying anymore
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Apr 12, 2017 19:57
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Condiv posted:yes, i would like to see the DNC actually make an effort. instead of saying "nah, we're not gonna do anything, good luck!" drat dude All American Rejects? Well okay whatever you say.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:59
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Majorian posted:Well, now, wait a moment here - the Sanders wing of the party is offering a strategy that has a chance of winning, when the current strategy has failed pretty dismally. And yet they're fighting to even be heard by centrists in the DNC. It doesn't seem to me like it's the Sanderistas that are being unreasonable here. I'm not seeing that right now. I will see what the Dems do after Georgia. If they rest on their laurels, I'll stand outside Condiv's house with a boombox
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Apr 12, 2017 20:02
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/Wobenar/status/852159629694029824 she is legit being real dumb bro
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Apr 12, 2017 20:06
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Majorian posted:Delve into that a bit, please. Explain to me why what she's saying is unreasonable. "Please stop talking to rich allies and instead wave your hands to make america go Bernie's shad of blue"
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Apr 12, 2017 20:07
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Majorian I'm gonna tell you straight up right now that I will not engage in seriousposting itt. Nobody here wants to talk about numbers or voting histories and instead would prefer to chase pie-in-the-sky solutions. And if I did bring up numbers I'll prob get WELL REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID IN 2016???Majorian posted:There's a big difference between someone expecting Perez to wave his hands and magically transform the political landscape, and expecting him to give even a modicum of support to this race. You do see that, right? Asking for a little more support shouldn't be deemed "expecting too much." quote:Stop playing w/non-Dem Bernie and get to work electing progressives/liberals! You're taking her words hella charitably but ok
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Apr 12, 2017 20:11
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Majorian posted:I'm up for talking about numbers and voting histories, and I've never been one for pie-in-the-sky solutions. I want the Dems to win in 2018 and 2020. I just think that the only way they're going to do that is by actually making an effort to speak to the needs of the working class again. I'm a Thomas Frank-type lefty. Yeah fair enough, nobody other than you and evilweasel. What would you propose for Dems to do to speak to the working class? and who are the working class cause that varies widely state to state? Kilroy posted:The sensation you're experiencing is that of being totally wrong about a thing. Take your compulsion to shitpost in response and try to turn that into a single post where you type exactly "hmmm I see your point mea culpa" and then never post again. I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THIS loving SICK DUBSTEP WUB BRAH VV "discussion" is a strong word from this thread also idgaf (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 12, 2017 20:16
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I'm actually of the opinion that Perez did the right thing letting Kansas burn. In addition to not wasting money on a state that has been traditionally red, the state can now continue to crash under tax cuts which Dems can use as a cautionary tale.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:24
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Not a Step posted:No, see, its actually a good thing that millions are getting hosed on a daily basis. This isn't an Electorial College. The majority chose this. They can live out the consequences. I'm done having pity for these people. Or are you suddenly gonna play the part of the good liberal where we need to give folks a chance? http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/kansas-house-special-election-district-4 look at this. Look at this stupid poo poo. 63,000 people looked at post-Brownback Kansas and decided "I mean you know what, why break with tradition/the emails/Islam/MSM/LIEBERALS/ehatever the gently caress" and pulled the red lever You see those pretty little red squares with like less than 500 people? Those are the people who will get hit the hardest by this decision. This is the much-fabled "base". Let em ride it out. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 23:10
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Not a Step posted:I agree, cut the South free to be its own hellhole and let the Klan take over. Its their own fault for not voting Democrat hard enough. I'm done having pity for those people. I sense sarcasm in the force. You realize these yokels would gladly agree with you, yes?
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Apr 12, 2017 23:19
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Majorian posted:Well, to answer your second question first, it obviously varies, but I like Tom Frank's broad definition (I'm paraphrasing): people who work for a wage, often in manual labor or industrial jobs, who, until relatively recently, have mostly considered themselves to be "middle class." A significant portion of these folks have traditionally been loyal Democrats, and have been enthusiastic about involvement in unions. Alrighty sure. Majorian posted:As far as speaking to them is concerned, pushing for things like a $15 minimum wage, vocally supporting labor, endorsing Medicare/Medicaid expansion, and promising jobs in new industries that have a chance of revitalizing suffering Rust Belt communities, are all good first steps. I understand the arguments against forcing a $15 minimum wage nationally, but that's part of how electoral politics works: you promise the moon, and sometimes you have to scale back on them a bit, but at least you cared enough to aim high, and fought for your beliefs. That wins you so much more good will from the public than going in ready to compromise from the get-go. I have no problem with a $15 dollar minimum wage, most arguments against it are just the Galtian job creators trying to bluff their way. "Listen if you do this I really will replace you with a robiit" which they would in a heartbeat if they could. Majorian posted:It's not just policy positions that are important, though. Being emphatic about those positions matters a lot, as is being seen as credible when taking those positions. That was the biggest problem for Hillary Clinton: she ended up with decent policy prescriptions by the end of the campaign, but she didn't really seem to believe in them. Given her history of supporting free trade agreements and cuts to the social safety net, and that she didn't seem to care that much about winning votes in the Upper Midwest, it's hard for me to blame people in those districts for not believing her. An economic populist has to "feel their pain," as a certain other Democrat once famously put it. I mean that's a tall order and you're relying on one candidate's charisma to carry it through. Do we have a spokesperson like that in the DNC? Or do you propose this become the DNC's broader message? Ze Pollack posted:And so we arrive at the blue-state centrist's core argument. "these people voted for these policies despite being face-hosed by them so obviously they want them for whatever reason" "You CENTRIST!"
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Apr 12, 2017 23:28
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Majorian posted:It does rely on some charisma, but here's the thing: it doesn't take that much charisma to pull this off. More than Hillary Clinton, but you don't need to be Barack Obama or 1992 Bill Clinton to do a convincing "I feel your pain." I do think it's a message that the DNC should adopt, and use it as one of the twin poles for their Big Tent party. (the other, of course, being social justice/antiracism/anti-sexism/anti-LGBTphobia, etc) The message of the Democratic Party needs to not just be social, or economic, justice. It needs to be justice, pure and simple. You're gonna have a hard time selling that second pole to the red base. Economic hardships and social issues are points that are linked together for them. Which one caused the other is a matter of debate, but so long as they are linked, they will not compromise. Like these people don't mind losing jobs. It sucks, but they accept it. They don't accept the idea that they lose their jobs to immigrants or other countries. I don't think we can win them over without compromising our stance on social justice and I don't think we should do that. There's also an issue of identity. These people believe their identity is being eroded away and voting D is a way to destroy it completely. They're still sore about the lack of recovery from 2008 in their parts, they're pissed about Obama's anti-coal stance and other ways the evil Ds wronged them. You can make an argument that it's true, but it serves as a major roadblock to our cause. Majorian posted:There are a lot of people in those states who didn't want what the Republicans are offering, who are going to suffer, though. Also, I'd contend that most Trump supporters in the Rust Belt weren't exactly "informed consumers," so to speak. It's tragic, but it can't be helped. If Dems were smart, they'd use Kansas as a warning to what happens when you pull the R lever. We can turn it blue later when Dems get more power. And again, they chose this. I don't care if it was out of arrogance or ignorance. There's being an "informed consumer" and then there's just being a lemming with no sense of self-preservation. If Kansas implodes in Republican hands, that gives Dems a lot of clout and a lot of angry voters. Majorian posted:This is...kind of a ghoulish viewpoint. I agree. However, these people are really loving happy to be stripped of these rights, at least 60,000 of them are. So what can we do? Leopards eating faces party and all that. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 00:36
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People deserve health care and a living wage not because they deserve it, but because these are human rights. The fact that a bunch of low-information voters whose quality of life has plummeted got bamboozled by a conman shouldn't strip them of those rights.
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Cerebral Bore posted:Why are you still pretending that midwestern voters are some unreachable and inscrutable Other one day after it turned out that one of the reddest districts in the country actually was competitive? Because it took an administration that took a state to its knees, probably in its worst shape it's been in recent history, and people still went and pulled the lever to keep the same party in power.
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Apr 13, 2017 00:41
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did you really just loving compare the letter from birningham jail to the rhetoric of people who crow about IDENTITY POLITICS? holy poo poo my dude
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Apr 13, 2017 00:55
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Ze Pollack posted:One of us just finished arguing we need to abandon every PoC in the American South to the tender mercies of the Republican Party on grounds you don't want to try to win elections there, friend. Majorian posted:MLK didn't have much patience with centrists who didn't concern themselves with income inequality. Dude was pretty outspoken on economic justice. That's really funny because I thought the letter from Birningham jail was complaining about exactly the sort of people who are too concerned about violence to help. You know, exactly like these 60k yokels in Kansas. I must have read the wrong one I guess. We're not talking about people who lack equal rights due to racism, we're talking about people who took the rights they had and hosed them. You are loving insane to equate the two.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:05
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Remind me again when did Martin Luter King's followers advocate for the free market in lieu of having government regulated coverage, or something similar? And then go "well I want to repeal Obamacare, I get my healthcare from the ACA  "
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Apr 13, 2017 01:09
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Ze Pollack posted:Oh, the people against him were quite adamant about how he stood for communism, race-mixing, the usual assortment of white suburbanite fears. I'm far from a moderate my dude. You need to try harder than this weak poo poo. You're not gonna compare my disdain for southern conservatives with racist whites of MLK's day. But go on and try. I can use a laugh.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:20
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Like normally at this point I'd make fun of your position with something like "man I remember when MLK's black followers were like 'boy I hate letting black people vote, but I love the 15th Amendment" but I can't even say that. Kansas' position on this shitshow is too absurd for me to even parody properly. Bah okay. Look. Dems should focus on getting other red states to flip. I have no argument here. But Kansas was always going to be a close race, and I'm not losing sleep that Perez didn't throw money to save them from themselves. Dem strategy should be to shore up as much power as possible and then use Kansas as a cautionary tale of what happens when you blindly pull R and use that while convincing other red states to vote D. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 01:23
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I'm liking this rendition of "The Real Slim Shady" though "Would the real Pragmatic Centrist please stand up" loses a little something.Ze Pollack posted:Oh, come on, the sociopathic monologue on the subject of how the weak deserve to suffer for the crime of being outvoted in a race you refused to support was great, why edit it away. My monologue was how tired I was of these odious people. They willingly walk into the meat grinder. They willingly sell their rights if it means sticking to the party line and screwing over immigrants. They willingly walk into the gently caress barrel We're not talking about simple gerrymandering here. We're talking about people who, by popular demand, chose all this: Ze Pollack posted:Let the minorities of Kansas be punished by a Republican party desperate for scapegoats. Let every protest be crushed by militarized police, let every black person thrown in jail's life be destroyed, let every prison be privatized and let everyone vaguely latin-looking be threatened with deportation. Let conversion therapy become official practice, and let any transgender person fear for their life when forced to choose a bathroom. Let abortion be criminalized alongside addiction, and replace any treatment programs with evangelical prayer sessions. Let the schools collapse into utter uselessness, so that every child foolish enough to be born to parents who can't afford private schools will pay as well. Even in the blue district, the tally was 41k blue to 39k red. The one place which should know better than any of the other tiny rear end divisions still voted red in almost equal measures to blue. You're not gonna guilt me into feeling sorry for these people, let alone making me feel like I'm somehow complicit in their misery. Those are all your precious white southerners in action. My other point in my monologue is that all this is a moot point anyway. Dems do need to press other red states, and if Kansas wants to be a teacher of what tea party politics look like, well there's nothing we can do now anyway. They need more power and we need to take it from the Republicans by any means necessary.
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Apr 13, 2017 02:00
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Majorian posted:Do they? Or are they simply normal people who don't have the time, energy, or mental bandwidth to pay attention to politics? Racism still plays a big part in it, but I can take your point here. That's an uphill battle though. Getting them aware of politics was a hard task before, but now they are completely distrustful of mainstream media and prefer to live in their bubbles of Fox and Breitbart. CNN et al have not helped matters either, preferring to press the both sides equally bad narrative. There is definitely a contingent who will listen to democrats, and I do agree Dems need to do more for these people, but there is a cultural wall they need to break. At the same time though, this isn't rocket science. I don't care how apolitical you are, there must be a sense of self-preservation in you. I cannot believe that a white guy looks at the Kansas, looks at his government, looks at recent history and cannot connect the dots. I get it when people vote for stop-and-frisk, it's absolutely possible to be unaware how racially abusive the practice is. I cannot believe people do not connect the actions of the government to their state's huge problems. When schools start closing, that should be a wake-up call. If it's not, you're either willfully ignorant or actively malicious. If you wrote that about any other red state, I'd agree with you completely. But I cannot do this for Kansas. To vote for R in this cycle is to be politically comatose. Ze Pollack posted:"who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." oh my loving god what a post. im sort of in awe. like drat i wish i could shitpost like this. It's got a little of everything; mlk, assuming I'm talking down to southern minorities instead of southern whites and ending with a parting shot that equates the plight of white southern conservatives and blacks. good poo poo. I changed my mind this thread is  worthy now.
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Apr 13, 2017 02:24
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Condiv posted:actually you do Oh! NOW I remember you! You were in that dumb as poo poo third-party voter thread ahahahaha. Did you give me my custom title this time too? Ahahaha so what, you voted for The Johnson? Or you know someone who did? what was their excuse, RAISING AWARENESS?
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Apr 13, 2017 05:49
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Condiv posted:nah i voted gloria la riva. and no i didn't give you your red text you baby. i haven't even gotten around to buying an avatar again after hillary lost, so why do you think i have $10 to waste on giving you a title? something to be said about supporting lost causes so ardently
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Apr 13, 2017 05:57
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Condiv posted:i've supported the dems all my life, so yeah i've been supporting a lost cause pretty ardently Shame she's not a dem tho
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Apr 13, 2017 06:03
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dont even fink about it posted:I dunno, like, whatever man. If loving Kansas swung 20 points blue with no money from the DNC, well, if that happened across the U.S. it would be the end of congressional Republicans for a long-rear end while. Just ignore him, the sort of guy who proably yells WAKE UP, SHEEPLE! into people's faces. He still hasn't figured out FPtP in half a year
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Apr 13, 2017 06:56
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ooo good one I like the way you think
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Apr 13, 2017 08:00
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dont even fink about it posted:I dunno, like, whatever man. If loving Kansas swung 20 points blue with no money from the DNC, well, if that happened across the U.S. it would be the end of congressional Republicans for a long-rear end while. Like dude, Condiv voted for a party in 2016 which had a record high of 70k votes. 60k from California. Now if next election they get 20 times that number, they'll finally be able to take the Green party's spot on the bench of irrelevancy. effective as gently caress leftism itt
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Apr 13, 2017 10:46
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Not a Step posted:If you live somewhere the Dems have abandoned a third party candidate is about as politically relevant as Hillary, except your vote might help push a third party to greater visibility. The popular vote is meaningless trash and running up the score doesn't mean anything if you're not going to flip EVs. Oh good, another person with no fuckin clue how FPtP works https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
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Apr 13, 2017 11:31
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Cause even if in some fever dream your dipshit third rate chucklefucks get some momentum going, they will get crushed by the two main parties. Or by one of the two main parties cause they don't have that kind of bankroll. lest we forget  Not a Step posted:Yes, I know how FPtP works to create only two viable parties. But US history is littered with dead political parties who found themselves without a constituency when the political winds shifted. It wouldn't be terrible for the Democrats to be interred next to the Whigs so a vigorous worker's party could take their spot. Well it's no libertarian free market :jerbag: jerk but drat if you're not trying
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Apr 13, 2017 11:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:Why is the person who thinks that the Dems should write off everything south of the Mason-Dixon line trying to scold others for not voting D? When did I ever say that? I said we can write off Kansas, not red states that can be taken. Stop jumping at centrists in the shadows and chill. Ytlaya posted:I think you underestimate how easy it is to get inundated with a specific narrative when literally every single person you know personally shares and supports that narrative. Alright fine. Let's say for a moment that having to shut down schools isn't enough of a wake-up call because your culture is that strong. What will be? Incrementalism is all well and good, but at the end of the day Republicans will break things, dems will try and fix them (somewhat haphazardly, though good economic policy wasn't made in a day) and the voters will blame Dems. We can come back to that tire fire next time. Maybe by 2018 they'll learn Ytlaya posted:Another element to this is that I find a lot of liberals attribute way too much intelligence to your average Democratic voter. Like, they think that the average Democrat is voting because they also have good, well-informed opinions, when in reality most people, Democrat or Republican, just vote based upon what their environment (people, media they're exposed to, etc) informs them is the "correct" choice. Most Democrats would be just like Republicans if they were exposed to the same environment and experiences, they are not some sort of intelligent ubermensch. We just had a guy defend his sub 100k vote party choice, so yeah I agree. Ytlaya posted:edit: One thing I should add is that, despite saying this, I don't think that all of these people are necessarily redeemable. Often the damage done through a person being raised in a certain way and inundated with certain views is more or less irreversible, but opinions can still change over the course of generations. Even if you think that conservatives are trash who deserve to die in poverty, their children are not inherently evil simply by virtue of being born to a conservative parent. Agreed, and come 2018 or 2020 they'll be much more likely to pull the blue lever now. We can try again next time. It's just in this two year period I want them to understand what they've wrought. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 13, 2017 |
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Apr 13, 2017 21:42
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