The democrats are a waste

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B	77	25.50%
K	160	52.98%
M	65	21.52%
Total:	229 votes

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Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

Race and class are inextricably linked in American life and no plan to end capitalism is going to succeed so long as white supremacy stands - they are mutually beneficial structures that support each other.

And white supremacy ends when white workers stand in solidarity with their class, rather than their race. The obvious way forward is class struggle and class consciousness. Do you have a different idea?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 17:31

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 08:07

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

William Contraalto posted:

The whole loving point of the loving Coates piece is that racism stands in the way of class consciousness! Can you at least read it before puking slogans out?

I've read the entire thing. I agree racism stands in the way, but the solution to that is to show how racism is used as a tool to divide working people by putting white workers at a higher level than black workers so that they will defend the owners to defend that privilege.

Where is Coates' solution to anything?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 17:52

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

How do you get racist whites to support reparations?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:01

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

How do you get racist whites to support anything without being racist?

That is the central question.

I've offered my solution, by building class consciousness and working on class struggle. This is supposedly an alternative solution for how to move forward so I'm curious as to how this project would actually be accomplished.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:05

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

William Contraalto posted:

This is why people are skeptical of class-focused leftism, because you deny that racism is anything other than a manifestation of class. So, you know, it's really questionable whether you can engage in more than the most superficial antiracism, let alone whether you would.

I didn't deny anything, merely pointing out how racism is actually used.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:07

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

And what happens if that fails?

This is the thing that frustrates me about the current narrative of the rise of neoliberalism in the '70s and '80s. Those politicians, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton - people voted for them. And the big reason regular people voted for them was not trickle down economics, it was opposition to desegregation - the Southern Strategy. Trickle-down economics was the way Reagan packaged neoliberalism for voters, but the enthusiasm came from his opposition to busing, to desegregating neighborhoods, and for "state's rights."

The American welfare state was built on the understanding that Southern Democrats would support it as an institution for white people only. When that understanding was broken the Democratic Party fragmented and lost control.

Building a class consciousness in a hostile country in a populace that values its tribal cultural identity as the racial in-group is not as simple as you make it sound.

Better just give up then! Or do you have an actual alternative for what to do?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:13

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

I just disagree with the notion that building a color blind class consciousness that stays silent on race or gender to avoid harming white fragility is a good or noble outcome to look forward too.

It always descends into condescending poo poo like this. Recognizing the role of racism in class is an important part of building class consciousness in white people.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:18

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

You're one to talk about condescension.

"Recognizing the role of racism in class" is some weak poo poo, the entire modern economic order of capitalism is built on slavery and colonial genocide. It's not "a role," it's the foundations.

I'm rolling my eyes because the whole point of class consciousness is to create solidarity between the exploited people of the world, which means, yes, facing that exploitation and its history and not flinching because it makes white people look bad. I'm rolling my eyes because there's no real conflict between us except that I'm not wording things the right way or something, and so I get accused of wanting to be silent about racism to protect white fragility. These conversations become a total minefield and no solutions are ever offered.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2017 18:43

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Majorian posted:

You have to realize, those of us who want economic justice have more ground to make up, in the party that claims to be for the people.

Just out of curiosity, what does economic justice mean to a leftist like yourself who doesn't seem to be a socialist? I see that term thrown around a lot and I don't really know what people exactly mean by it.

For myself, economic justice would mean basically paying everyone the same hourly wage. Obviously some people do more or less work and some people don't try at all and that would have to be accounted for with how people are paid for people to accept it as fair, but that's what I think of when I think of economic justice.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2017 06:19

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Man, why wont the democrats do something we want.

Ugh, the democrats are only doing something we want to deceive us

I get being cautious of people's change in opinions. This is like reason # 256 why hillary lost, but at the same time you should not complain about things moving in the direction you want them to move. Maybe something along the lines of "well that's a good start M. Booker, please continue to evolve on these issues and help us move the party to where it needs to be" instead of "gently caress you, you snake."

I think after what happened in California people are a little skeptical that the democrats will actually move forward on medicare for all when they have the power to do it.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 19:27

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I really like this analogy. Ze, I usually take umbrage with your post's self righteous nature, but your attitude towards booker I think is the right one to have. I will try and adopt it more when working with people that I don't exactly trust intentions, this thread included.

Jesus christ it's like you literally can't write a post without whining about something in it.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 19:34

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

I lived in CA at the time, and I am not exactly sure what you wanted from that bill. It was A single payer bill, but not exactly a good one. I would much rather move for a MFA than sand up a new system with no structure.

"The democrats suck so much that their plan was really lovely" isn't a great defense of them not going forward with single payer in the most populous state in the country.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 19:40

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

You can execute insurance company CEOs in the streets for all I care but any plan to do single payer has to figure out how to avoid crashing the global economy due to so much of our GDP and employment being in healthcare.

Just out of curiosity, when has government regulation caused a market crash?

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 19:52

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

I'm talking about any kind of plans to nationalize healthcare outright, you can kill the insurance companies slowly via Medicare for All style public options but any kind of hard shock would end badly.

That's what happens when we let a stupid industry become 18% of GDP of the largest economy on earth.

When has nationalizing an industry ever caused a market crash?

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 20:08

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

The nationalization isn't the problem, the problem is that those jobs and businesses are redundant and an explicit goal of public healthcare is eliminating them.

This is a good thing. Period. Those resources would be better spent on other things. But if ~10% of GDP and hundreds of thousands of jobs disappear in a short period we call that a depression. Having a global economic crash blamed squarely on leftist policy is bad.

The change wouldn't come out of nowhere, there would be time after the passing of the plan but before its execution for everything to adjust.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 20:23

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Knight posted:

I should hope so. All I'm saying is that healthcare policy designed to create public healthcare has to shift resources out of private healthcare without triggering a crash. I'm not morally opposed to "gently caress insurance companies tomorrow."

I'm not convinced it would trigger a crash, is the thing. Would ending the health insurance industry in one fell swoop be equivalent to bursting a bubble? I'm actually not sure.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 20:34

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Chomskyan posted:

Why don't you give a detailed example of how the specific action of nationalizing an industry in any of those nations led to an economic collapse.

I'm not usually for dismissing someone as a low-effort troll, but that guy screams it.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2017 21:09

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

The Kingfish posted:

The 538 podcast is especially bad this week but I don't know where to post about it.

Lol why would you subject yourself to that podcast?

# ¿ Sep 12, 2017 13:20

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Euphoriaphone posted:

Extra space for what? Bribes?

Serious answer: for the secret service to stay in.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2017 23:03

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

A giant H looming over a cowering, piss-stained wretch.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2017 00:33

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

D.N. Nation posted:

"apparently"

Just come out and say what it is you want to say instead of doing this poo poo.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2017 03:25

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Condiv posted:

thinking about closing this thread so the whiny people won't have a thread to whine people should go to anymore

Merge this thread with the trump thread without notifying the trump thread.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2017 22:39

Jizz Festival: Oct 30, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Hey everyone, I made a thread to contain the hillary and bernie chat, as it is easting all three us politics threads alive. Please come and tell us about why you don't like Hillary and defend bernie from centrists!

gently caress this.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2017 23:00