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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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The dastardly Russians, now escalating from forcing Hillary to not campaign in the Rust Belt to saying that the Democrats should follow the 50-state strategy they claimed they would follow. Does their perfidy know no end?
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Apr 12, 2017 17:11
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It is good that the defenders of the democratic party, faced with the democratic party making the active choice not to try to win a winnable seat, have determined a simple, cohesive defense for that action. That criticizing them is proof you want Republicans to win. Unlike the party that made an active, deliberate choice to facilitate Republicans winning.
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Apr 12, 2017 17:19
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Typo posted:tbf the seat didn't look winnable just a week or two ago The thing that kills me about the refusal to even try here is that even if it's a pathetic failure, it gives you a testbed for your plans in 2018. You cannot buy an experimental platform like this: ridiculously pro-republican seat, ridiculously pro-republican state, phenomenally unpopular republicans above the seat in question, it's a perfect low-stakes way to try to answer the question "how can we best leverage this to our advantage." You send a signal to other would-be challengers in 2018 that the DCCC will have their backs, and you get a chance to iron out the bugs in your system as you try to do something none of the people involved have experience doing. But no, someone at the DNC decided that they've got got more important things to do than figure out how to accomplish the Democratic Party's stated goals. Seriously, you scratch the surface and the failures only get worse. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 17:42
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evilweasel posted:no, just no stupid criticism from idiots -evil"a pyrhiic victory beats a flat loss"weasel, speaking in defense of a democratic party that has lost the presidency, senate, house of representatives, supreme court, and the vast majority of all state legislatures to a party currently lead by Donald Trump.
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Apr 12, 2017 17:46
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evilweasel posted:i, too, have never heard of georgia-04 Walking and chewing gum at the same time is for the weak, evidently
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Apr 12, 2017 17:47
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JeffersonClay posted:Thompson was pretty clearly trying to thread the needle between Anti-Brownback and a really conservative district. He didn't have any positions that were left of the democratic mainstream, at least not on his website. His campaign actively downplayed his affiliation with the Democratic Party. It's not clear that the Democratic Party dumping a bunch of money on him would have helped his chances rather than bursting the illusion of independentness his campaign was trying to create. Your defense of the Democratic Party refusing to support a winnable seat is "if the Democratic Party tried to support its candidate it would only hurt them." If you genuinely believe this, what, then, is the DNC even for?
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Apr 12, 2017 17:57
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evilweasel posted:here's a hint: anytime you, a moron, think that you can rephrase something anyone else says, stop because you can't "The path to majorities is not in indulging these idiots": man defending the strategic decisions of a party that has lost any voice in government beyond the strongly-worded tweet.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:11
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm not sure this seat was actually winnable. Once the seat looked somewhat competitive the GOP started dropping money and charismatic white men on the race, and they've got more of both. It's entirely possible for the DNC to have the power to affect the outcomes of some races and not others, and one example of the latter does not mean that it's useless. If only there was some strategy to bleed an enemy of resources asymmetrically... some sort of technique by which you cause them enough problems in enough places with relatively low investment that they can't protect them all... some sort of "large-number-of-places" tactic... Sadly to the knowledge of the DNC no such technique exists.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:16
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evilweasel posted:as you see by the copy of sun tzu's the art of war on my bookshelf... If only there was some term for this unheard-of "many-provinces-assault" stratagem. Could have sworn there was someone at the DNC who said something about it, can't quite put a name to the face.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:32
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JeffersonClay posted:That's exactly what happened. The DNC gave 3k and phonebankers and the republicans drowned the race in money. The DNC giving more money just makes the strategy less efficient. Provided that the Republicans are incapable of recognizing or reacting in any way to the DNC giving 20K to the race, and that the 20K will not in any way meaningfully impact his campaign, yes. Your need to believe any attempt by the Democratic party to advance its agenda must result in failure is distorting your read on this situation pretty badly, man.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:44
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SSNeoman posted:This isn't an Electorial College. The majority chose this. They can live out the consequences. I'm done having pity for these people. And so we arrive at the blue-state centrist's core argument. If the people will not vote for the One True Party, then leave them to suffer. They genuinely wonder why they lose democratic elections, you know.
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Apr 12, 2017 23:21
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Majorian posted:This is...kind of a ghoulish viewpoint. Endgame of the kind of politics that likes to call itself "pragmatist" to obscure its fundamental cowardice. An actual pragmatist accepts that when a strategy fails, doubling down on it is ill-advised. But to the centrist technocrat, who has no real principles or convictions beyond 'my personal comfort is good,' who views the very concept of representative governance as morally suspect on the grounds a plurality of America does not give a drat about their personal comfort, pragmatism's sole value is as an excuse for never offending upper-to-upper-middle-class suburbanites. Thus, the 'pragmatists' claiming that the correct path, for the Democratic Party, in a democratic system of government, is to avoid doing anything for the people it supposedly seeks to represent. Martin Luther King stripped their supposed "pragmatism" bare for what it actually was in the Letter from Birmingham Jail. The White Moderate, who will always have a more convenient season to address injustice in mind, and whose support of equality extends precisely up to the point it starts mildly inconveniencing them personally, and not a millimeter further. At which point the checkbooks come out and the donors lurch into action, because those goddamned leftists need to be shown this party is not going to be run by a filthy socialist muslim and shown it good. After all, for every one working-class voter we lose, the Pragmatic Centrist will pick up two in white suburbia, and isn't white suburbia what -really- matters?
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Apr 13, 2017 00:51
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People deserve health care and a living wage not because they deserve it, but because these are human rights. The fact that a bunch of low-information voters whose quality of life has plummeted got bamboozled by a conman shouldn't strip them of those rights.
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SSNeoman posted:Because it took an administration that took a state to its knees, probably in its worst shape it's been in recent history, and people still went and pulled the lever to keep the same party in power. You have tried nothing to get their votes, and you're all out of ideas.
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Apr 13, 2017 00:54
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SSNeoman posted:did you really just loving compare the letter from birningham jail to the rhetoric of people who crow about IDENTITY POLITICS? One of us just finished arguing we need to abandon every PoC in the American South to the tender mercies of the Republican Party on grounds you don't want to try to win elections there, friend. Turns out MLK wasn't a fan of that line of argument, for some reason.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:01
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Majorian posted:MLK didn't have much patience with centrists who didn't concern themselves with income inequality. Dude was pretty outspoken on economic justice. Also on finding the kind of coward who hid behind "oh, it would be too ~haaard~ to try to sell Not Getting Turbofucked By Racist Idiots south of the Mason-Dixon" unhelpful. But hey, SSNeoman wants to punish red-staters for that red-statery, guess the black population of the bible belt's all just acceptable losses.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:06
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SSNeoman posted:Remind me again when did Martin Luter King's followers advocate for the free market in lieu of having government regulated coverage, or something similar? Oh, the people against him were quite adamant about how he stood for communism, race-mixing, the usual assortment of white suburbanite fears. And then as now, the White Moderate responded to the conservative presence in the American South by telling the left there "while i'm a big fan of equal rights on ~paper~, it's simply not ~pragmatic~ for me to expend any effort on trying to make that come to pass." Isn't it fascinating? Scratch a "pragmatist" and you find someone whose solution to all problems of inequality is telling the oppressed "sit down and shut up, you deserve it."
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Apr 13, 2017 01:16
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SSNeoman posted:I'm far from a moderate my dude. You need to try harder than this weak poo poo. Seriously, it's worth a reread. He's explicitly not calling out the racist whites of his day in that section. He is calling out the people who say "no, seriously, I'm on your side," but whose support mysteriously evaporates the second they are asked to do anything to make equality happen. Much like yourself, whose ostensible support for Southern minorities is instantly and effortlessly outweighed by your desire to punish Southerners for daring to elect Republicans. Let the minorities of Kansas be punished by a Republican party desperate for scapegoats. Let every protest be crushed by militarized police, let every black person thrown in jail's life be destroyed, let every prison be privatized and let everyone vaguely latin-looking be threatened with deportation. Let conversion therapy become official practice, and let any transgender person fear for their life when forced to choose a bathroom. Let abortion be criminalized alongside addiction, and replace any treatment programs with evangelical prayer sessions. Let the schools collapse into utter uselessness, so that every child foolish enough to be born to parents who can't afford private schools will pay as well. Let all the weak, the poor, of Kansas suffer in agony. Because SSNeoman thinks helping them would be ~haaaard~.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:40
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SSNeoman posted:Like normally at this point I'd make fun of your position with something like "man I remember when MLK's black followers were like 'boy I hate letting black people vote, but I love the 15th Amendment" but I can't even say that. Kansas' position on this shitshow is too absurd for me to even parody properly. Oh, come on, the sociopathic monologue on the subject of how the weak deserve to suffer for the crime of being outvoted in a race you refused to support was great, why edit it away. You so rarely see the Pragmatic Centrist's opinions of the filthy untermenschen expressed so openly.
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Apr 13, 2017 01:44
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SSNeoman posted:My monologue was how tired I was of these odious people. They willingly walk into the meat grinder. They willingly sell their rights if it means sticking to the party line and screwing over immigrants. They willingly walk into the gently caress barrel "who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." Perhaps, some day, the convenient season will come, and on that day you will be willing to lift a finger to aid all those filthy, odious minorities who deserve to be punished for being outvoted by republicans. For some reason MLK doubted you when you said it, though.
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Apr 13, 2017 02:08
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SSNeoman posted:oh my loving god what a post. You are talking down to southern minorities, friend. That you don't recognize them or their misery having any kind of value is kind of the problem! You have told them that they deserve to suffer for the crime of being outvoted by southern conservatives. You have told them that you are tired of their filthy, odious failure to outvote Republicans without any support from you, and for that reason you are abandoning them to their fate. You have told every minority in the American South that the misery they will experience under a Republican-dominated government is a price you are willing to pay for the chance a couple of white conservatives will suffer along with them. What a noble support for minorities, that says "yeah, sure, you will suffer incredible agonies I refuse to lift a finger to stop, but I'm willing to trade that for the chance a white conservative will experience a fraction of your pain." Let's work the math out on this one. Five black lives destroyed worth three white lives hurt sound like a good starting point?
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Apr 13, 2017 16:25
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worthy now.
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Ytlaya posted:Even if you think that every Republican voter is trash that should literally suffer and die, not every single person who lives in Republican areas is Republican themselves. Many are also children (or other dependents like the mentally disabled). It justifies them not trying, though, which is always a much-sought-after coin.
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Apr 13, 2017 17:22
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SSNeoman posted:Oh it's a lie? That's news to me. I can name three people who would be in histrionics if the DNC ever announced that. I actually remember people being in histrionics about it back during the presidential election. Well, you still seem to be missing that the minorities in those states suffer as a result of you writing them off as a lost cause, but grudging acceptance that trying to help them is a good idea beats the hell out of your previous stance! Evidently there -is- a number of gay people being electrocuted at which point you concede punishing them for their neighbors voting Republican is loving stupid, who knew.
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Apr 13, 2017 22:58
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah; Republicans will paint literally anything Democrats do as being outright socialism, so it's not like the message received by right-leaning Americans will change much. As a bonus, so will axeil! Turns out Team "I'd support leftist policy if only you were a little nicer to m- er, I mean upper-middle-class suburbanites" is remarkably consistent when it comes to putting their supposed principles into practice. It's just so much more ~pragmatic~ to never actually try anything.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:44
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JeffersonClay posted:They really don't. Third way centrism doesn't suggest Robbie Mook listen to his computer algorithm over people on the ground. Nor does it proscribe misallocating campaign funds. Bill Clinton did not run inept campaigns, despite advocating third way policies. The Clinton campaign was inept therefore her policies were bad does not follow logically. Por que no los dos
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Apr 18, 2017 18:55
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Ze Pollack posted:Por que no los dos Seriously, though, the feedback loop is exciting to watch. Hillary's policies don't excite people, so her sycophants tell her to campaign on anything but policy, so she actively avoids taking any progressive stances, so she continues to fail to inspire her base, so her sycophants tell her to double down on the empty platitudes harder, repeat for twelve months and we arrive at lost, broken creatures claiming that if only the Hillary campaign had been a little more racist with its empty platitudes they'd have won.
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Apr 18, 2017 19:01
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TyroneGoldstein posted:By that you mean mean just enough nativist middle management prototype cultureless suburban shitbirds to eek out a win. Because those are the people that will sacrifice our social contract for a portion of one mortgage payment back on their taxes. but didn't you hear, for every one working class voter we lose we will pick up two of them
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Apr 18, 2017 20:38
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DaveWoo posted:If you want to talk about how Democrats should change their policy going forward, I think you might be better off creating a separate thread for that. This thread seems to mainly be obsessed with hating Hillary. this assumes JeffersonClay would like to talk about how Democrats should change their policy going forward he tried creating a thread about what he wants the Democrats to do, it was, in its entirety, "say Donald Trump is Bad," and when it was pointed out that this strategy proved tragically ineffective in the face of some intensely lazy bold-faced lies delivered by a well-known liar and serial groper he proceeded to throw a tantrum over why stupid leftists couldn't acknowledge the tactical genius of not changing a goddamned thing for fear of offending racist white suburbanites.
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Apr 19, 2017 16:14
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axeil posted:Because as we all know when the Democrats ran on "Bush Bad" in 2006 they failed to take back the House and Senate and when the Republicans ran on "Obama Bad" in 2010 and 2014 they didn't make historic gains in the House. And as we all know, the president is currently Hillary Clinton, thanks to this strategy's brilliance. I have terrible news for you, Axeil. Your Republican friends, as Hillary Clinton learned painfully, vote for Republicans. There is not an amount of pandering to them by talking about how ~uncouth~ the Republican candidate is is that will prevent this.
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Apr 19, 2017 16:46
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The alternative is the axeils of the world having to come to terms with the fact there's really nothing special about them. And speaking as someone who got to deliver the death notices of their businesses in powerpoint format to them, there is no amount of money, no number of jobs, no degree of other people suffering you can present to them that will be enough for them to accept that. They will drive their businesses, or in the case of Larry Summers the entirety of Eastern Europe, screaming into the ground "No, really, I got this! I GOT THIS!" Because if they -aren't- a better class of human being, superior by virtue of the internship daddy got them and the rarefied air in which they live, then their entire lives have been a sad joke, and the punchline is that they brought hundreds of other people's lives down with them. They say money can't buy love, but it sure can buy self-delusion. They can be suckered. They can be used. They can be tricked into doing the good they claim to want to see but refuse if they ever see the pricetag. But never, under any circumstances, give one of these inbred morons power, because from such well-meaning aristocratic dipshits were Gallipoli, AIG, and the Campaign of Hillary Rodham Clinton born. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 18:19
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axeil posted:Are you a 5 year old? The gently caress is this, Rivals.com? Tell us some more about the proper disposition of the lesser peoples of the world, axeil, and the precise degree of suffering you would prefer be visited upon them for their crimes. In full, mature, and serious format, of course.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:27
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axeil posted:I think everyone should be excellent to each other What definition of 'excellent' includes "we need to make sure that poor people aren't too comfortable," axeil
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Apr 19, 2017 18:38
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axeil posted:https://twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/855015900495458304 While, of course making it clear that the Democratic Party only supports massively popular policies despite the contempt it holds for the filthy commoners supporting them. Seriously, this verges on pathology.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:31
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Nevvy Z posted:It's like you want to the HFC of the left. "You know those people who have dragged the nation kicking and screaming towards their ideology for the last eight years despite being a tiny fraction of the political world? Who can hold any legislation in this country hostage to their demands?" "I bet you wish you had that kind of power, you disgusting lefties"
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Apr 20, 2017 19:17
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Nevvy Z posted:Unironically this. Leftists don't get a pass on it just because I agree with them on things. Someone who genuinely believes seeking to accomplish your political goals is morally suspect. Well, it explains the Hillary support, at any rate.
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Apr 20, 2017 19:29
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:How many Cory Bookers do I have to eat to set of radiation alarms? Effect's the other way around, eating one reduces the people voting against even symbolic attempts to regulate drug prices by one. Measurably increases your health.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:56
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If this voting block was as ripe for the plucking as you indicate, where are they? If only there was some indication that people who had previously voted for Obama were turned off by America Is Already Great, We Don't Actually Need To Appeal To Voters, Keeping Pharma And Finance Happy Is What matters.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:20
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Nevvy Z posted:Also, just becuase he self identified as a centrist doesn't really mean he's the sort of person most people are talking about when they say "centrists should be purged from the party" and telling someone you want to purge them never makes you sound good. If you would prefer "the people who have lost the party all political power beyond the strongly worded tweet should be replaced and not allowed back in power" to "centrists should be purged," we can say that instead. That second one's a little punchier, though, and messaging's important. Though I know it hurts Hillary partisans to admit it, sometimes you gotta say some distasteful things to get elected.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:26
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:So Voter turnout being down is the same thing as voter support for progressive polices? Doesn't that seem like a stretch? there are a ton of factors that go into voter turnout. I am not dismissing the line of argument, but I am not convinced. I would like to see more direct proof. If it ends up being true, then awesome. If it isn't then it would be a huge mistake to purge centrists. Voter turnout in states that went for Hillary, specifically. Something about Hillary Clinton's campaign fundamentally turned off the people who signed onto Barack Obama's platform of hope and change. Tell me, friend. How would you characterize the differences between the two?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:28
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well, Obama was a waaaaaay better politician, had a meaningful message, and handled his opponents way better. They are ideologically 95% the same. I hope you weren't making a racial argument. Surface level. Dig a little deeper. In what ways was Obama a better politician? Why did his message resonate, where Hillary's did not? How did he handle his opponents better than Hillary? Why did Obama motivate people to vote for him in a way Hillary Clinton failed to do?
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Apr 20, 2017 21:33
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Well considering the centrists that DID vote voted for Trump over Hillary, I don't see how you can think they wouldn't. More than likely half of the people would get upset that the candidate wasn't left wing enough and vote for Trump out of spite. Also, if it is another Woman, expect a good percentage of those people to vote against her from just pure misogyny. The idea that suburban republicans are attainable centrists, instead of suburban republicans, is probably the single most embarrassing side-effect of the modern structure of the Democratic Party. In a universe where everyone of any political importance has to have had parents willing to pay for their extended internship with a campaign, of course the working class, minority and otherwise, is a strange unreachable alien race whose votes are immutably locked by cultural factors. But Thad and the guys I play tennis with on the weekend, those are people we can reach!
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Apr 20, 2017 21:56
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