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The situation on you describe on the second quote of my previous post. The only square the king can go in that situation is b8, which a bishop on f4 threatens. It's not going to happen, forget it. Thoughts on c4, everyone? Covers the bishop just in case, is covered by the bishop and further controls the center, but I feel our time is better spent in other areas of the board.
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Jul 19, 2017 22:38
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jon joe posted:I think we'll always want to eventually put our knight on c3. Even if we don't do it immediately due to us needing to respond to an opponent's move, I think we'll need to do it eventually. Right now I like castling first though because there's nothing preventing it, it's totally safe and opens up the rook. I disagree that castling is a back-foot move, because it allows us to play front-foot without worrying about our king at all for most if not all the rest of the game. Leaving it out in the open creates a lot more check opportunities for our opponents, I think. Plus it's just plain solid. Castling is not a move we're doing because there's nothing else, it's a move we're doing because it puts our board in a legitimately better position. At this point I'm tempted to leave c column open for our pawn rather than our Knight. There is little chance that they will threaten our bishop with something other than a pawn at this point, and a pawn doesn't care if our knight is covering it. It also leaves the option of c4 open if that's needed, which still allows for Nc3 eventually. For now, yeah, 0-0 Dr. Fetus posted:Hmm, any ideas on what Black could do after our castling to not make that a good move? a6 makes it worse because it forces our bishop to run away or trade. Even if we fall back to Ba4 it can be pushed again with b5 Edit: not bad per se, you are still developing pieces, but weaker. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 07:32
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It puts the rook into play, which is usually a 2-3 moves affair, and is probably going to be countered by black with their own castle, so not much.
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Jul 20, 2017 11:04
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Nevermind
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Jul 20, 2017 20:25
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jon joe posted:Let's assume we did some random move this turn that did NOT prevent our opponents from moving Nd5 on their turn. In this example, h3 to illustrate a worst-case, but other examples are near equally bad in subtler ways: Ok, I've worked this out. If that's the fear then D3 and then d4 if they move Kd5 is better in that case because it forces their Knight go back to c7, a worse position (or going back to f7, which must sting and we get to laugh at them for so easily cowed). If black goes Nb4 we d5 and they lose. A lot. It's nice to give them rope to hang themselves with. Will post pictures later. c3 also opens an escape route for our bishop if needed and protects d4. Either c3 or c4, for sure. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 20:37
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jon joe posted:I don't think our bishop needs the escape route through c4 because we want to maintain the pin. Consider the following: Fine, "a way to be relevant if the we need it on the right side of the board", instead. Mobility IS and advantage, no matter how you cut it. EDIT: That a8 rook looks scarier now
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Jul 20, 2017 20:54
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Yeah, I'm still moving between the 2. c3 has the potential for hilarity if they Kd5 and costs us nothing, that's its main selling point.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:01
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jon joe posted:I'm not sure how? I look forward to the pictures. Sorry for the string of notation: 9. c3 Nd5 10. c4 then either Nc7 or Nf6 and we have won an extra move. Yipeeeh! However, if they see b4 as a nice place for their knight to be in, as you pointed out: 10.... Nb4 11. d5 exd5 (otherwise we take the knight and it's a huge mess), we're equal in material. 12. a3 dxc4 (if they move their knight we cxd5, and have 3 pieces on c6 again and the possibility of checking whenever we want, that's bad news) 13. Re1+ (just to be insulting) Be7 14. axb4,  14. ..... 0-0 is probably their best option here, and their position is in shambles. We're one knight up one pawn down and their advanced pawn is a dead man walking. Their other knight is still pinned and with 2 pieces threatening it. We have a rook in play, they don't. We move. Nd5 is a very bad move for them and we should encourage them to do it, it's what I'm getting at. It's worse with 9.c3 than 9.c4, because the badness is subtler. EDIT: Notation is hard 
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 21:29
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I've convinced myself: c3, for now. For the possible hilarity that may or may not happen!
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 21:32
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jon joe posted:Oh, you're right. However, I don't think they're going to do something dumb just because I thought that their something dumb was actually good. I know, but I don't see c3 being that much worse that c4 and I want the thread to be entertaining. Arguing is interesting and maybe we'll get lucky  Edit to include quote
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Jul 20, 2017 21:42
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Getting the other rook into play is a good idea, so we should be moving either the knight or the bishop. Not happy to leave our d4 pawn hanging, so I'm leaning towards Be3, which would be extra annoying if we decide to play d5 eventually. Right now, there are three pieces bearing down on d4. Kc3 does nothing for us right now besides developing a piece, which, while good, could be better. I'd wait to do that until we see a threat to our bishop.
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Jul 25, 2017 13:34
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This is my reasoning, but opening the way for our other rook to join the fun, too.
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Jul 25, 2017 14:25
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Don't think I've voted yet. Be3
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Jul 25, 2017 22:07
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Flip the table, you mean.
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Jul 26, 2017 19:13
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Ok, that Knight is no longer pinned. Options: Pawn to d5 (unless I'm missing something) is easily countered with Ke5 and we have to retreat our queen, completely losing both control of the centre and momentum. At that point, Black can easily take our c4 pawn after chasing our bishop away with a6.  Black to move. On the other hand if we don't defend our d4 pawn (say, we move our queen knight), Black can take d4 with their Knight, we take their knight with our bishop and they take our bishop with their rook, recovering a pawn and leaving their rook smack dab in the middle of the board.  White to move. Horrible. Our Bishop is blocked, and if chased away our other pawn is dead. We could take their bishop with our pawn, which ends up with the sequence Cloud Potato hast posted, which isn't nice for our development but leaves their queen side pawns completely isolated, but playing a pawn game will be boring.  White to move. Not bad, but we lose the Bishop pair, which would be nice with such open lines. I suggest Rd1 as the only way to keep our pawn and control of the centre. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 23:22
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Cloud Potato posted:One possible counter to this: move our queen to f4 instead of retreating to g3, although this probably ends in mutually assured queen destruction. (One possible line: d5 Ne5, Qf4 Ng4 (since Nf3+, Qc3).) Still losing a pawn. For example: 11. d5 Ke5 12. Qf4 a6 13. Ba4 exd5 14.cxd5 Kxd5 and the queen has to run away again (if the queen checks at this point it can be chased away easily with g7). Cloud Potato posted:Then Qe3 makes the rook run away Still losing a pawn. In both cases is very easy to setup a d column rook train, which can cause all sorts of trouble later on (like pinning our rooks to the 1 row) Cloud Potato posted:The sequence I posited leaves their queen on c6, not a pawn. Much worse.
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Jul 28, 2017 03:48
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Phoneposting, sorry. Just grabbing oath2order post to have a board linked.oath2order posted:Current board If BF4 right now: 11. Bf4 Kxd4 and we're forced to trade queens 12. Bc7 Kxf3+ 13. gxf3 Kxf7 and we've lost our pawn advantage and our King is more exposed than theirs.
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Jul 28, 2017 03:57
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sebzilla posted:We're suddenly making defensive plays and being dictated to, though. Ugh. Not really. Pawn to d5 after we get our other knight out (or even before that, with our rook in pace), it's going to be painful to deal with for Black. We need setup yet before going all out. Looking at the board, their (I think) best move is h5, to move their knight into a protected g4 and cover an attack by their Queen into our h pawn and check. Can't see a better defence than simply moving our pawn to h3, but not moving our more important pieces hurt. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 14:59
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Ok, thoughts. Starting with the obvious, Option 1:we take the pawn. They take our rook with theirs, we take their rook with our queen and they take our pawn with their queen 12. dxe5 Rxd1+ 13. Qxd1 Qxe5 (or Kxe5).  White to move. Take e5 with the black Knight instead of the Queen if you want. We're one pawn ahead still, and the board seems more equal than before, Black has broken free and is contesting the center. We could also Option 2: take their Knight with our Bishop: 12. Bxc6 bxc6 (they have to take with their pawn, if they take with their Queen we play d5 and we get a free turn while they run away). 13. Kc3 exd4 14.Bxd4  Black to move. Their King is crying because this pawns are all hosed up while ours is nice and safe. The Queen is completely neutered if Black wants to keep their remaining pawns. Still one pawn ahead, more control over the center and we have finally got our Knight out. Bonus What If Option 2.b: they take our Bishop with their Queen instead of their pawn: 12. Bxc6 bxc6 13. d5 Qc7 14. Kc3 Qxc4 15. Bxa7  Black to move. Our pawn is defended, theirs is not. Neither is the one next to the King, which at this point is very vulnerable. Our pieces are linked and theirs aren't. We can either bully their Queen by advancing a pawn or move our left rook to c1 and have it in the same column of the King, which will make them sweat bullets. Another thing we could do is Option 3: advance our pawn: 12. d5 Kd4 (if 12. ... Kb4 13. a3 Kc2 14. Qf5+ and the Knight is dead) 13.Bxd4 exd4:  Black to move. Not bad, that black pawn is as good as dead but we lose our threat on a7 and our white Bishop is quite blocked. And our pawns on white squares, while annoying, can be easily ignored by Black's Bishop and Queen. And we delay the development of our Knight until we get rid of that pawn, or have to move it to a less favourable d2. Cloud Potato posted:But ooh! Queen to f5, check! I don't think Black's got anything threatening that square, and the check forces them to either block or move the king. Most likely they'd play Nd7, or Rd7 or Qd7. But would that help us? And we still can't take their e-pawn, since their other knight's covering it. Honestly, the only follow-up I can think of is Qxf7, for full crazytown frolics. So far, I think Bxc6 is our best option but I may have missed something.
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Jul 30, 2017 16:11
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Thinking a bit more, I don't dislike d5, but I'm hungry for plastic pieces blood. Also like the board with Bxc6 better than with d5.
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Jul 30, 2017 19:05
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Basically, it's checking for the sake of checking and doesn't help us any. If you really want to be aggressive, Bxc6 is the move, in order to open up their King cage more. oath2order posted:It also I think weakens thier best move if we move d5 next round, which is nd4. EDIT EDIT: Our black square Bishop is important, damnit! Look at how much open space there is for it! If you want to prevent their Knight to be an rear end in a top hat, take it NOW instead of waiting for it to move to d4! If we're to trade a Bishop for a Knight, it should be our white square one! Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 21:56
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Ignore the previous post:oath2order posted:Actually, I kinda like the idea of forcing check at this point. It limits them to a very small number of moves, none of which are really helpful. It also I think weakens thier best move if we move d5 next round, which is nd4. If we initiate the capture exchange there we end up with this board. Black bishop to c6, our rook runs away, Knight to e4 and now we have two pieces threatening our pawn in f2, which we cannot move to threaten the knight. It's a very lovely situation. Bring the Queen to, say, b7, and we have a possible checkmate in our hands. This is why the black square bishop is important. We have A LOT of holes in our defence without it. Please don't throw it away with d5 or Qh3. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jul 30, 2017 |
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Jul 30, 2017 22:12
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I think so. Our Bishop is helping us less than their Knight can help them, plus we open up their defense even more by isolating their pawns.
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Jul 31, 2017 00:16
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Yeah, Nc3 looks good.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:01
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Ok, so their plan seem to be to move their knight to g4 and threaten our h pawn with their queen? We can either play h3 or g3 to prevent it. Anyway, for now I guess dxe5 works and we came up a pawn ahead after trading rooks. If the queen takes our pawn them we can take theirs with our own queen and check.
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Aug 4, 2017 09:32
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It seems to me that the moment for Kg4 was before we placed our pawn in the path of their queen towards h2, but whatever. Defending our pawn with Bf4 doesn't look like a horrible idea. We could trade our bishop for 2 pawns in order to leave their king undefended, but I'm not sure how good that move is (15. Bxa6 Qxa6 16 Qxc6+)
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Aug 6, 2017 12:44
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bman in 2288 posted:What's our Knight at c3 doing?
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Aug 6, 2017 16:05
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Cloud Potato posted:I don't think Bg5 is a good idea, as it lets Black take our e5 pawn without consequence, as well as threaten our queen on f3. On the other hand, it's possible that Bf4 won't stop them from taking our pawn, then we take their knight, they take our bishop with their queen, leaving us with: sebzilla posted:Hmm. On the other hand, if we can get that c6 pawn out of the way we can bomb our Queen into the a8 corner and I think we've won. Nb5 as bait? If they don't go for it they've got to move their queen which will probably weaken their defense around the King anyway... I haven't followed through the possibilities on where they could move it to yet. You know what, you're drat right! From Cloud Potato's post (but it works as long as the general structure is similar), to clarify: Qxc6+ Qc7 (if they play Kb8 is checkmate after Rxd8) Qa8+ Qb8 Rd8+ Kxd8 And they lose the queen. Qxb8+ If they don't take the bait after 15. Nb5 we can Nxa7 next turn, and the only way out I see is by taking our Knight with their queen, which lets us play Qxc6+ and go into plan sebzilla. Ok, what's the best way to get our Queen either to c6 (after they move their queen away) or a8? EDIT: Yeah, should refresh before posting, sebzilla has already said this. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 6, 2017 |
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Aug 6, 2017 18:36
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(White to move)
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sebzilla posted:Nb5 is our path to victory, comrades. Agreed
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Aug 6, 2017 21:23
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Cloud Potato posted:OK, let me see if I follow your reasoning: Nb5 cxb5, Qa8+ Qb8, Rxd8+ Kxd8, Qxb8+ and that's where I lose the thread. Well, at that point we've traded a Knight for a Queen, their King is in the open and we can easily promote any pawn we wish. Not much else to see. If they don't take the Knight after Nb5 we check the King next turn with Nxa7+ and they are forced to take with their Queen, so we can easily move into Qxc6+ and then Qa8+
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Aug 7, 2017 11:16
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(Black to move, in check)
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Cloud Potato posted:Surely in the example I posted, we lose our remaining knight and a rook in exchange for their queen? Their queen AND their rook.
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Aug 7, 2017 12:51
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Qf5+
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Aug 8, 2017 21:33
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sebzilla posted:So, if they do anything other than Qd7 we can Nxc7 next turn. 16 ... Qd7 17. Nxa7+ to keep on being assholes and take our Knight out of the line of fire. We can Rxd7 after that. EDIT: Wait, it's basically the same, we have a move if we go 16 ... Qd7 17. Rxd7+ Rxd7 anyway. Still I prefer being a jerk and making them move their King NOW. 
Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Aug 9, 2017 |
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Aug 9, 2017 13:39
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Dr. Fetus posted:So they went Qd7 after all. So do we perform the execution now, or go with a different move? Both end up with us taking their Queen with our Rook, but I kinda prefer their King as cornered as possible. Plus, if they move it to a dark square after Nxa7+, we can check it again after taking their Knight with our Queen, which keeps on giving free moves to us. Giving them time will mean that they can finally get their Bishop and other Rook into play. No reason not to keep piling up the pressure. In the end, I don't think it matters much, but I'm leaning towards Nxa7+
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Aug 10, 2017 12:51
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Added Space posted:I'm concerned that leaves our knight out on a limb, and two of the legal moves involve placing the king right next to it. Most likely they'll go Kb7, which makes it difficult for the knight to escape. At best it's a neutral move imo. It's protected by our bishop. Nxa7+
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Aug 10, 2017 19:01
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bman in 2288 posted:Agreed. I just had a conversation with my brother (who is much better at chess than I am) and pointed out what you just said. I think going on the offensive here could be a bad idea, because if they move Kb7, it will lead to our loss. Phone posting, so explaining is hard. But I'm gonna say g3. If we play it now, we may still have a strong presence in the board without the vulnerabilities the constant checks will move us into. g3 immediately loses us the queen.
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Aug 11, 2017 08:33
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Bye bye, Queenie. Rxd7+
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Aug 15, 2017 17:30
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Yeah, I don't see any problem with taking their knight. It would be nice to put their king in check again, but you can't have everything. It'll take them at least two moves to be in a threatening position (getting the bishop out of the way and then moving their other rook to d8), and we can counter it covering d1 with our queen. Qxe5
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Aug 17, 2017 14:14
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bman in 2288 posted:Question: if we move Qxe5, what's to say that their rook will move to d1? Even they will see that going for that check will lose them a rook unnecessarily. There are (kind of) moves they can take that won't end with losing big pieces, but it doesn't seem like those moves really do anything. What Dr. Fetus meant (I think, and what I answered to) is that IF they put the two rooks in the same column (on d7 and d8) AND we leave them alone, they can move the d7 rook to d1, we take it with our a1 rook, they take it back with the d8 rook and it's checkmate. It's a very long shot that requires us to be completely oblivious for three turns, but it's the only way I can see the rook threatening us.
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Aug 17, 2017 15:40
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Warning: Work procrastination  incoming.So, they are threatening our Knight because it's not longer protected by our Bishop. I can see three broad categories of moves here: 1. Retreat: We simply move the Knight to b5. It's protected by our pawn and we can still threaten the area where the Black King is, and can later move to c3 to cover our weak spot (d1). The bad part is that Black now has the initiative to do some other stuff. Something like this: 20. Kb5 Be7 21. Qxg7 Rd8 22. Kc3 Black to move:  It's a secure position, but now both our Knight and Rook are bogged down protecting our King until we gave it a way out. Moving the Queen away is probably a mistake, too, I guess we could do something else instead of Qxg7 too, but taking undefended pieces is fun. 2. Take the pawn with our Bishop: (taking with the Queen is not an option, we lose it). We probably trade our Bishop for their Bishop and a pawn, but end up in a worse position defensively. For example: 20. Bxc5 Bxc5 21. Qxc5 Rd8 22. Forced, not very productive move to avoid checkmate White to move:  We're one move away from checkmate, but it has an easy solution (Rf1, for example, or simply advancing one of our three pawns in order to give our King a way out). It's annoying, though. We have two pieces out there next to their King (our Knight is undefended, though), instead of one, but their two rooks are going to make difficult to close the match. 3. Keep up the pressure. They want to take our Knight? Fine. We threaten their Rook, by moving our Queen to a position on the same diagonal than the c7 Rook. That makes them lose tempo moving their rook away (or losing it in exchange of our Knight). If they move it down the d column, it's not there to cover their King (and we can check by taking their f pawn with our Queen, keeping the initiative and probably getting a checkmate easily), and if they decide Rc7 we have make impossible for them link their rooks. Say: 20. Qe8 Rc7 21. Nb5 Black to move.  Their Bishop is pinned if they don't want to lose the Rook, the other Rook is under assault, all our pieces are covered and I don't see how they can mount any kind of offensive. I'm leaning towards either Qe8 or Qf5, but taking a step back is probably fine as well. Ideas?
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Aug 18, 2017 12:35
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