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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I really don't understand posts like this. The post you quoted is opinionated but almost everything in it is a statement of fact or at least an attempt to grapple with objective reality. What point in the post do you actually disagree with? Do you think the attacks aren't harming people? Or that the attacks aren't an attempt to gain legitimacy by violence? I doubt anyone posting in this thread is unwilling to criticize George Washington; but by the same token, the Houthis should not be immune to criticism for these actions even if you think they're on the right side of history. You approve of American air strikes in Yemen. Stop talking about how terrible you think violence is but only when brown people do it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 16:36
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Esran posted:It's this bit there's disagreement over. They're actually both very similar standpoints. The primary difference is that one absolves the Houthi for their purported efforts towards a legitimate goal, and the other holds them responsible for their actual conduct and the consequences of those actions.
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Mar 3, 2024 19:16
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Grip it and rip it posted:They're actually both very similar standpoints. The primary difference is that one absolves the Houthi for their purported efforts towards a legitimate goal, and the other holds them responsible for their actual conduct and the consequences of those actions. If we are discussing "actual conduct" are we allowed to look at the actions of other belligerents such as the USA and UK? Should their actions of killing people matter more or less than attacks that have not killed people? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 19:52
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Grip it and rip it posted:They're actually both very similar standpoints. The primary difference is that one absolves the Houthi for their purported efforts towards a legitimate goal, and the other holds them responsible for their actual conduct and the consequences of those actions. They are not similar standpoints. One considers what the Houthis are doing to be justified in the name of stopping a genocide. The blockade is viewed as one step in the right direction (harming the economy of Israel), with many more steps necessary to actually stop the genocide. The attempt to stop or slow the genocide is considered more important than the disruptions to trade that may affect countries that aren't Israel or its backers. In this view, the Houthis are "on the right side of history". The other condemns the Houthis for disrupting trade, and considers the effects of this action on states that aren't Israel to be unacceptable. The blockade is viewed as counterproductive. The disruption to trade is considered more important than the attempt to stop or slow the genocide. The Houthis are not "on the right side of history". When you say "holds them responsible for the consequences of their actions" what you actually seem to mean is "I consider those consequences to not be worth attempting to stop or slow the genocide, because it won't work". Which is fine, but that's not "a similar standpoint". Josef bugman posted:If we are discussing "actual conduct" are we allowed to look at the actions of other belligerents such as the USA and UK? We are not. Every action must be viewed in isolation, otherwise you're doing a "whataboutism".
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Mar 3, 2024 20:34
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Josef bugman posted:If we are discussing "actual conduct" are we allowed to look at the actions of other belligerents such as the USA and UK? Should their actions of killing people matter more or less than attacks that have not killed people? Ive never defended the conduct of the USA or UK or Israel in this conflict. Their behavior is heinous and absolutely worthy of condemnation. But that old saying about two wrongs not making a right still holds true. Just because other people are doing worse things than you doesn't make your conduct any less bad.
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Mar 3, 2024 20:37
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Grip it and rip it posted:But that old saying about two wrongs not making a right still holds true. Just because other people are doing worse things than you doesn't make your conduct any less bad. If you believe that there is no efficacy in the actions of the belligerents from Yemen then that is fine, but you don't actually state that, you sate that your beliefs are "holding them responsible". But unless we consider the wider context of things it appears as if that responsibility is reserved for only some actors in this situation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 20:56
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Josef bugman posted:If you believe that there is no efficacy in the actions of the belligerents from Yemen then that is fine, but you don't actually state that, you sate that your beliefs are "holding them responsible". But unless we consider the wider context of things it appears as if that responsibility is reserved for only some actors in this situation. They're apparently been effective at increasing suffering in Sudan. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/feb/16/houthi-attacks-in-red-sea-having-a-catastrophic-effect-on-aid-to-sudan I do hold them directly responsible for this as the Sudanese people are in no way responsible for or assisting in the ongoing events in Gaza.
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Mar 5, 2024 14:09
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I like how you completely missed the point of that post, which wasquote:it appears as if that responsibility is reserved for only some actors in this situation (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 5, 2024 18:59
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Esran posted:I like how you completely missed the point of that post, which was I prefer not to engage in debating the merits of whataboutism. Can we maybe agree that the impact of the Houthi attacks on food and medicine getting to Sudan really needs to stop?
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Mar 5, 2024 22:56
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Rust Martialis posted:I prefer not to engage in debating the merits of whataboutism. Of course you do. Sure, I would like the attacks to end. Since the Houthis have said they're going to continue the attacks until the genocide ends, and the Americans have shown their impotence at discouraging AA with military force, it seems to me that forcing an end to the genocide is the best option to stop these attacks, which is something the US (and maybe the EU) could absolutely do. A different option if the western powers would like to keep the genocide going is to approach AA diplomatically, and see if they can make a deal on getting the specific ships destined for Sudan safe passage. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 5, 2024 |
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Mar 5, 2024 23:22
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Esran posted:A different option if the western powers would like to keep the genocide going is to approach AA diplomatically, and see if they can make a deal on getting the specific ships destined for Sudan safe passage. Or maybe the Houthi could just announce safe passage to Sudanese aid traffic themselves since it's clearly the moral thing to do.
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Mar 6, 2024 08:27
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Rust Martialis posted:Or maybe the Houthi could just announce safe passage to Sudanese aid traffic themselves since it's clearly the moral thing to do. Collateral damage is the price of doing business so can be discounted up to a certain point. This is not just my opinion but the international norm. E) and I like how while those posters were discussing the efficacy of Yemen's actions in trying to reduce the amount of killing of Palestinians you leap in and go "whataboutSudan?", then the very next post, "I don't like whataboutism". I bet you reported him too for it haha. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Electric Wrigglies fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 12:01
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Collateral damage is the price of doing business so can be discounted up to a certain point. This is not just my opinion but the international norm. Well yeah but it's a violation of international law to deliberately impede humanitarian aid, either to Gaza or to Sudan. You choice of words makes it seem you're ok with this, but I assume I'm mis-understanding you. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule55 I would think the Houthi should offer safe passage to Sudanese-bound aid ships sua sponte and keep the blockade on Israeli shipments would be a reasonable next step for them to take as they are presumably aware of the issues in the region. It keeps pressure on Israel while not making the Houthi complicit in starvation of Sudanese people. E) I point out I've been mentioning Sudan since I first saw it reported in the press in mid-February so I've hardly "jumped in" as you characterized it. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 12:19
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Yeah, it would be a good look if Yemen could carve out as best it can the ships delivering aid to Sudan. It would probably need to do that in conjunction with the third party such as China. Saying that, I think there is many fingers in pies in Sudan as well so not sure if China would be on board with that.
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Mar 6, 2024 14:35
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Collateral damage is the price of doing business so can be discounted up to a certain point. This is not just my opinion but the international norm. I'm sorry what? Since when can collateral damage be "discounted" as part of some kind of norm? There are always people who are rightfully upset about any kind of collateral damage that results from primary objectives. The only people who discount it are governments and callous dipwads. Edit: Here are some recent developments https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68490695 Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 17:50
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First possible casualties for the blockade; True Confidence was struck after a failure to respond to warnings from Yemen. Two sailors allegedly killed, another two wounded. The Houthis say America should compensate their families, but if America does not they will do so themselves. https://x.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1765440149712720370?s=20 E: Interesting facet; the ship is Barbados flagged, Liberian registered, Greek manned, and up until literally 8 days ago was owned by Oaktree, a US firm. https://www.ft.com/content/7968438c-ec7c-424d-aaed-42d99e2a51a7 Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 6, 2024 |
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Mar 6, 2024 19:39
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in news that may be meaningful at some point in the future, egypt's central bank has let the currency float and raised rates as part of an effort to secure an imf "aid" package. the egyptian pound when from it's government peg at 30 egp:1 usd to 55 egp :1 usd in about 24 hours. typically government pegs don't keep the people from feeling the effects of inflation, but it does provide some protection. i wonder if decreased inflows of foreign reserves from suez due to the houthi blockade played a role in the decision https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypt-raises-interest-rates-by-600-bps-pound-tumbles-2024-03-06/
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Mar 6, 2024 21:47
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:in news that may be meaningful at some point in the future, egypt's central bank has let the currency float and raised rates as part of an effort to secure an imf "aid" package. the egyptian pound when from it's government peg at 30 egp:1 usd to 55 egp :1 usd in about 24 hours. typically government pegs don't keep the people from feeling the effects of inflation, but it does provide some protection. i wonder if decreased inflows of foreign reserves from suez due to the houthi blockade played a role in the decision Doesn't Egypt heavily subsidize the cost of food for their citizens? I would think having those costs potentially double overnight would create some very serious issues for people. https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/egypt-allocate-41-bln-food-subsidies-202324-document-2023-06-13/ um am I reading this right? Their government was borrowing money at 18.5% interest?
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Mar 6, 2024 22:12
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https://apnews.com/article/yemen-houthi-attacks-us-israel-palestinians-gaza-89c5440d9943216a787b39912bd969e0 First fatalities, as two crew aboard the True Confidence (unrelated to US/UK/Israel) died and more were injured. It seems three more are missing, but not yet presumed dead.
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Mar 6, 2024 23:40
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E:forget it
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Mar 7, 2024 00:37
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It also sounds like the Panama Canal is having to cut it's operating capacity by 1/3 due to an ongoing drought in the region. It does make me worried that, combined with the damaged data cables and the multiple sunk ships, the US may increase its interest and focus on Yemen. Hopefully they get sick of creating ecological disasters and killing random passers by though.
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Mar 7, 2024 01:06
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https://twitter.com/Seamus_Malek/status/1765440149712720370 According to a Houthis leader, the deaths were unintentional, and they are prepared to allow America to compensate the victims. And then they will consider compensating the family of the victims by the same amount that the families are compensated in Gaza. So I assume 'none'.
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Mar 7, 2024 01:17
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so now we've moved past reposting tweets from previous pages, and are jumping to same page reposts?
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Mar 7, 2024 02:06
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:so now we've moved past reposting tweets from previous pages, and are jumping to same page reposts? I straight up didn't see it, sorry. I just failed to reload before I posted and didn't see it.
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Mar 7, 2024 02:11
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:in news that may be meaningful at some point in the future, egypt's central bank has let the currency float and raised rates as part of an effort to secure an imf "aid" package. the egyptian pound when from it's government peg at 30 egp:1 usd to 55 egp :1 usd in about 24 hours. typically government pegs don't keep the people from feeling the effects of inflation, but it does provide some protection. i wonder if decreased inflows of foreign reserves from suez due to the houthi blockade played a role in the decision Egypt was already facing many billions in debt coming due this year (I think some to the IMF). The canal was a huge and reliable source of foreign currency so I'd bet it absolutely played a role. It's a tough one to swallow though. Sisi has little legitimacy and this will make life more expensive for an awful lot of people. I'm sure he was trying to avoid this.
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Mar 7, 2024 02:31
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Grip it and rip it posted:It also sounds like the Panama Canal is having to cut it's operating capacity by 1/3 due to an ongoing drought in the region. It does make me worried that, combined with the damaged data cables and the multiple sunk ships, the US may increase its interest and focus on Yemen. Is this last sentence about the US or Yemen?
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Mar 7, 2024 02:49
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Count Roland posted:Egypt was already facing many billions in debt coming due this year (I think some to the IMF). The canal was a huge and reliable source of foreign currency so I'd bet it absolutely played a role. This was going to happen anyway - writing was on the wall for the last two years that the EGP was hosed and massively overvalued. The Houthi attacks affecting Egypt pushed up the timeline of collapse, but only by a few months. It would have happened anyway. This loan will help the black market rate not drop to 1:100, but let’s see how long it keeps a black market from showing up again. Probably a couple years? Egypt has done this dance between floating currency vs fixed+black market several times in the last 10 years.
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Mar 7, 2024 07:29
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Saladman posted:This was going to happen anyway - writing was on the wall for the last two years that the EGP was hosed and massively overvalued. The Houthi attacks affecting Egypt pushed up the timeline of collapse, but only by a few months. It would have happened anyway. This is accurate but overestimates the impact of the Houthi blockade and Suez canal revenues on the issue - the flotation was a long-time coming and the official vs parallel market spread was already 30:55 to the USD before October 7. If anything, the Houthi attacks helped crystallize the loan increase due to how dire the situation got for the currency over Q4 2023, the Gaza genocide also helped push up Sisi's importance in Western and Gulf Arab circles to keep on-side for negotiations / possibly taking on Palestinian refugees in the Sinai - it's also why suddenly UAE is paying 35 bln USD for development rights of a small parcel of land on the north coast, and why the EU and World Bank are also finalizing their own low-interest loan facilities to Egypt.
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Mar 7, 2024 09:11
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I think some of you might appreciate this deep look at Neom, probably the greatest project ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak4on5uTaTg And by 'greatest' I mean the gooniest.
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Apr 21, 2024 19:09
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