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Count Roland posted:This is basically the case. Yemen is party to the UN conventions on the law of the seas which govern this sort of thing. A country that has signed this treaty isn't legally allowed to blockade trade routes and attack shipping. From my understanding on the way these laws work from the class I half slept through in the Navy sea passages and historically important routes such as the Red Sea have unique rules that limit the ability of nearby states to deny innocent passage of ships in EEZ or territorial waters they otherwise would have the right to. For example Lybia and the US Navy got into a few tiffs over one side claiming such a special rule existed there vs the standard EEZ and territorial waters distance. I believe the justification of the Houthis is something along the same lines as how unrestricted submarine warfare was legally justified, in that any sort of ship flagged by countries that might be aiding Israel are fair game. So the location of the ships aren’t releve. Dunno how seriously they have actually made any sort of legal claims, it’s really hard to actually find reporting directly translating their claims in English.
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Jan 20, 2024 23:23
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Blut posted:What term would you use to describe launching missiles at civilian crewed ships, boarding them, and taking civilian workers from uninvolved countries like the Philippines hostage at gun point, to then hold ransom? Why “terrorism” specifically? What other participants in this conflict do you consider terrorists or using terrorism?
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Jan 21, 2024 18:39
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Grip it and rip it posted:Not to mention that these efforts have produced no tangible results for the Palestinians. They continue to be killed with impunity by the IDF while the Houthis attack civilian shipping "in their name". The whole thing is a distraction that actively harms communities in the area and whose only product has been increased US bombing in the region and a slight increase in the cost of goods being shipped around Africa instead of through the Red Sea. This finger wagging at the Houthis is really bizarre in the context. Unless Palestinian groups are condemning them, it's hard to take seriously these concerns from people presumably from countries that are actively helping Israel complete it's genocide trying to condemn a quasi-state group that is doing something. I do not really give a poo poo about shipping costs in the contexts of tens of thousands of corpses while millions of people are potentially starving to death or being blown up, and I think acting like this is some important concern is just geopolitical version of "Look I support [x] oppressed minority, but only as long as they protest the right way!"
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Jan 26, 2024 23:20
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Grip it and rip it posted:Have you read any of the UN reports about the atrocities committed by the Houthis? This all has nothing to do with the conflict between the Houthis vs the Gulf States, Israel, and the United States, it is a whataboutism in the context of the United States supporting a genocide. Hey, we could talk about what the US and it's proxies did to Yemen too! Why isn't that relevant? I have yet to see Palestinian groups condemn the Houthis, but I've so far seen the talking point of "The Houthis Don't Really Care About Gaza" in articles and arguments only from Israelis and Americans who, if they even acknowledge the reality of Gaza, seem to not feel terribly responsible or concerned about it. Why not defer to the Palestinians? Why do you know best? Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 01:55
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:That someone is carrying out a brutal bombing campaign against the Palestinians does not actually grant Palestinians a free pass to legitimize other brutality. It's weird that you apparently think it does. Lets say we are not talking about the Houthis. Can you clarify, hypothetically, what military actions any group or state is morally justified to do to prevent or slow the mass slaughter and displacement of about 2 million people?
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Jan 27, 2024 02:17
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Actions that aren't bombing innocent people. Interesting. How do you feel the actions and morality of the Houthis weigh compared to the current US bombing campaign of Yemen, or the previous years of US and Gulf States bombing campaigns and enforced famine in Yemen? Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 02:23
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:That's a stupid game. How do you feel about the actions and morality of the Americans and their allies disrupting food shipments to Yemen? How many people would it be acceptable for the Americans to kill so long as they claimed they were doing in the name of freedom of the seas? I could thirst for blood and just love killing people and it wouldn't matter. Either the random airstrikes are wrong or they are not. TheDeadlyShoe posted:That's a stupid game. How do you feel about the actions and morality of the Houthis disrupting food shipments to Sudan? How many people would it be acceptable for the Houthis to kill so long as they claimed they were doing in the name of Palestine? I could thirst for blood and just love killing people and it wouldn't matter. Either the random terror attacks are wrong or they are not. Causing famines is never justified in my opinion, and every country has an obligation to prevent those from happening. How do you feel about the edited statement compared to your post, and please answer if you believe the current US bombing campaign is morally justified, and if the previous Gulf State campaign against Yemen was justified? And I guess, just to make sure, how would you characterize what the IDF is doing in Gaza? This is all seems really confusing if your principle truly is that any action that may result in the death of innocent people is never okay, even if it prevents the killing of millions of other innocent people. Unless you hold the relative value of human lives across different ethnic groups to be orders of magnitude different, it seems odd to focus on Yemen in this context. You refused to answer, but it seems that you are quite okay with the United States actually killing at least a few innocent people in Yemen to prevent Yemen from potentially killing a person, and to ensure that Israel may continue to kill many innocent people. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 02:39
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You guys keep bringing up the argument in GiP and incredibly cynical bullshit you guys pulled to get me banned because I called out what absolutely was disgusting bigotry and self-serving excuses on your complicity in a genocide, and then here you keep referring to it and then report me for “posting about posters” when I respond. Not falling for it this time.
Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 27, 2024 |
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Jan 27, 2024 07:21
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It is interesting how our concerned American soldier is so deeply offended by Islamophobia only whenever someone happens to paraphrase someone else and never seems to have a problem with the person bringing up the troupes themselves or advocating for bombing them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2024 16:18
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The pairing of this smug “you are the real racist actually” right alongside the use of words like “terrorist” “brutal” and “random” used only to refer to the Houthis actions in the Red Sea which have killed zero people compared to the complete lack of passion when describing actions of the US, KSA, UAE, and Israel is sure interesting.
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Jan 27, 2024 17:18
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There have been constant pogroms and lynchings of Muslims in India since the partition, it's just not covered much, even though the BJP I think is the first government in a while to go out of it's way to wink at it in the same way that Likud does about lynchings in the West Bank, it's unfortunately not that surprising. I'm only really aware of it because I have a bunch of Indian Muslim in-laws.
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Jan 27, 2024 23:50
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:The connection between the houthis and what is happening in Gaza appears to exist almost exclusively in the minds of the houthis, and in the minds of people thousands of miles away on the internet, so far as I can tell. Your insight into the region is profound.
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Jan 29, 2024 05:54
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Ham posted:Both of you are widely incorrect. Public opinion in Egypt is strongly in favor of Palestine and the resistance factions (including Hezbollah and Iran), Shia vs Sunni is not really an active discussion especially in a fully Sunni country with most of the populace not understanding the divide. Egyptians are engaging in a significant boycott against any Western-branded products that has continued since the attacks with no signs of stopping, to the point where Western aligned retailers and businesses announced layoffs and downsizing. I take it you're from the MENA? I keep seeing the talking point about how the Houthis are actually hurting the Palestinian cause, or are "opportunists" seeking to justify piracy they were going to do anyway. But I've so far only seen this line exclusively from American, UK, and Israeli posters and news media, and while I'm no expert I do know for sure Houthi attacks almost entirely stopped during the ceasefire and then ramped up after. To me it seems a pretty dubious claim, because at least even from English language news it seems like the Houthis are taking actions that they expected to result in facing harsh retaliation, and it doesn't seem like their priority is capture ships as there isn't any opportunity for profit in scaring off traffic via launching missiles and loitering attack drones, and based on the behavior of ships transiting the region at least most ships seem pretty confident they won't be targeted if they are not percieved as being associated with Israel or the US. The only self-interested angle I can see is that they're hoping to gain legitimacy and popularity in the Arab world, which at least personally is getting into a pretty ridiculous level of purity testing and moralizing and doesn't invalidate their stated motivation at least in the specific context of the conflict with Israel and US unless we're going to like start both sides-ing WW2. Am I off the mark? What are you seeing the Arabic-speaking news world?
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Jan 30, 2024 01:24
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Rust Martialis posted:One difficulty discussing the Red Sea attacks is you can applaud the idea of trying to apply pressure to get the US to push Israel to stop loving genociding Gaza while also saying "uhhh you do know what you're doing is absolutely illegal under international law" I mean most of the arguments I’ve seen of people trying to find angles to justify the US strikes in Yemen were couched in morality or at least a sort of implied “this law or norm about commerce and freedom of the seas is absolute and moral.” The thing about actual lawyers vs legal cranks is that unlike say mathematics vs cranks the only real difference between sovereign citizen nonsense and accepted serious case law isn’t the result of some rigorous fundamental proof but just what the highest court or legislative body or the jurisdiction says it is. In the case of international law, it’s even more muddled.
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Jan 30, 2024 18:57
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Ham posted:I am an Egyptian living in Egypt. Houthis were not heavily featured for a long time in public discourse other than state media following the Emirati/Saudi line when they began their assault on Yemen years ago. Thanks! I kinda figured it was a disingenuous talking point just based on the people I’ve heard it from, but I wanted to be sure there wasn’t actually some serious debate in the Arabic media world about it.
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Jan 30, 2024 19:09
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Why are you confident you understand “true” motives of the Houthi actually piracy rather than what they are saying, and do you think it’s fair to characterize the motives of the United States and UK as “help their allies complete a genocide of a very inconvenient population without interference” rather than the claim of freedom of navigation?
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Feb 19, 2024 23:37
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Saladman posted:For that exact ship? Who knows. I do! We have been referring to the Rubymar
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Feb 19, 2024 23:39
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By the logic of deadlyshoe 9/11 was not an escalation Not sure why it’s important to argue why it is an escalation or not.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Actions that aren't bombing innocent people. I would like to repeat my question, do you condemn the current and past bombing of Yemen and blockade of Gaza and why or why not, regardless of how stupid you feel the question is. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 20, 2024 00:22
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:For real? Check the quote boxes in posts you've already made, or perhaps follow the 'Don't bomb innocent people' chain of logic to its obvious conclusion. The obvious conclusion I reach seems to be different than yours, considering the vast majority of the innocent people who have been and will be bombed are Palestinian. Could you just answer the question clearly?
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Feb 20, 2024 00:36
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Declaring you have a profound moral stand of “not ever bombing innocent people” as a prime moral guideline and demanding that I condemn them, and then explicitly condemning AA, but evading any explicit call to condemn anyone when the IDF, USA, KSA, or UK who have all killed far more is brought up seems really inconsistent and strange, unless you believe that the Palestinians are not either “innocent” or “people.” If that is the case, which hope it is not, have the courage to own your belief regardless of the potential forums consequences. You demanded the same of me, I think it’s fair.
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Feb 20, 2024 00:56
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Anyway, Houthis claim to shoot down a drone, US claims it crashed, actually. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/19/politics/us-investigating-drone-crash-yemen/index.html
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Feb 20, 2024 01:14
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:So the lives of sailors in this region have less value to you, is what you're saying. This sort of trolling is pretty transparent and I think the seriousness of an ongoing genocide and conflict in the region deserves more than this.
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Feb 20, 2024 04:08
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Grip it and rip it posted:Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? I think you'd find a lot of very convincing and familiar arguments in that lovely little book. No, I have not read it, you should just say whatever point you are making.
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Feb 20, 2024 06:08
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Kchama posted:I back what he says about the Houthis and have gone on the record many times stating that Israel are evil monstrous genociders who should be stopped. How should or could they be stopped?
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Feb 20, 2024 20:48
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Then it all seems like it should be really important to focus on stopping the genocide in Gaza even if people don’t care about Palestinians, if the Houthis are causing so much problems.
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Feb 20, 2024 21:54
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Deteriorata posted:Maybe the Houthis shouldn't be targeting unarmed civilians and should try to find some other way to apply pressure to Israel. Sure, but maybe the United States and UK could also not help Israel complete the ongoing extermination of thousands of people and displacement of millions by bombing a country where we also aided a genocide, and maybe your energy as a westerner should be focused on the people who are actually dying by the hand of your government and their allies who are all actively bombing and killing people in Yemen and Gaza rather than criticize that someone is fighting back in the wrong way because they might kill innocent civilians.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:09
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Deteriorata posted:That's classic whataboutism. What the Houthis are doing is wrong and should be stopped. It has no relation to anything anyone else is doing. If you support stopping people who are doing a genocide also bombing people attempting to stop a genocide because the group fighting back against the extermination are using questionable methods, it looks like to me you’re still just supporting a genocide. The fact that the Houthi strikes are being referred to as a “bad thing” overall and pretending the wider context of the past Saudi lead genocide in Yemen or the ongoing genocide in Gaza isn’t relevant betrays you. Frankly it’s not any of your places to claim that they are hurting the cause of Palestine. I have yet to see a single Palestinian say so. It is all about justifying the moral abomination that is American policy.
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Feb 20, 2024 22:21
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Deteriorata posted:Attacking unarmed civilians is always wrong and that you think it is ever justified says a whole lot about you. Are we talking about Gaza again, where people are actually dying, or are they not civilians?
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Feb 20, 2024 22:25
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Kchama posted:Has anyone here said that attacking Gazans is good in any way? No but many people here have explicitly supported or refused to condemn American and UK actions that involve killing people in Yemen in order to support the genocide in Gaza, while being extremely focused only on hypothetical deaths and actual damage to property by the Houthis. Please don’t do the Sudan concern trolling, that one is really gross given what the US and Saudis did to Yemen recently,
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Feb 20, 2024 22:31
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Kagrenak posted:What a loving leap to take. One can be critical of the efficacy and potential side effects of a form of direct action and not support the thing the direct action is targeting. I would say killing people in Yemen to prevent pressure on Israel is more than a mistake. A mistake might be how I would describe some of the Houthis actions. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 20, 2024 |
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Feb 20, 2024 22:32
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It would be quite strange and morally shall we say not that courageous in a discussion of world war 2 for someone to obsess only the actions the British in Dresden or India, or the Soviets in Poland, and emphasizing the only those victims, while describing the actions of say Italy and Japan as more regrettable but necessary, and resisted any narravtice that connects them with responsibility for the holocaust or the brunt of axis war crimes, especially if they were employed or directly benefited from an Axis regime.
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Feb 21, 2024 02:31
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Grip it and rip it posted:Fun Fact: It's not a either / Or situation. You can do both. It's actually possible to not celebrate any unprovoked attack on anybody, ever! What a world. You also don't have to hold your nose and praise the kind of people that have committed human rights violations on the scale that the Houthi have committed, ever! Nobody has celebrated it, but we understand as an attempt to do something to force change in regards to a going genocide against a vastly superior power. I do not care that they were no angels. Given that both of us were or are in the US military I think it’s frankly quite embarrassing to be claiming a sort of moral high ground in regards to Yemen. You and others have steadfastly refused to acknowledge or denied the context of the recently attempted genocide we supported upon Yemen and the connection to the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Could you also explain that cryptic comment you made earlier? 2nd e: an even better analogy would be obsessing over war crimes or innocents killed by Soviet and Jewish Partisans and then declaring that well it’s not like you support Hitler, even though you don’t really have a problem with the German army, after all they need to defend themselves Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Feb 21, 2024 |
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Feb 21, 2024 02:39
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The Houthis interest in Gaza is obviously fake, unlike our very deeply held sincere concern for shipping containers uh I mean hypothetical merchant mariners and people in Sudan that I’ve connected to this, somehow (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 26, 2024 04:29
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:I really don't understand posts like this. The post you quoted is opinionated but almost everything in it is a statement of fact or at least an attempt to grapple with objective reality. What point in the post do you actually disagree with? Do you think the attacks aren't harming people? Or that the attacks aren't an attempt to gain legitimacy by violence? I doubt anyone posting in this thread is unwilling to criticize George Washington; but by the same token, the Houthis should not be immune to criticism for these actions even if you think they're on the right side of history. You approve of American air strikes in Yemen. Stop talking about how terrible you think violence is but only when brown people do it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 3, 2024 16:36
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