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I had no idea this game existed! I'm so excited! Make a joke.
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Aug 23, 2018 04:49
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Chuu posted:Oh wow I had no idea this game existed. This show really left an impression on me when I first saw it ~20 years ago and I can't wait to see what this LP brings. About the show though . . .
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Aug 24, 2018 18:02
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Patter Song posted:I will say that the manga plus the movie add up to make me way, way more sympathetic/soft on Touga than his anime version strictly deserves. More on that when we meet Touga, but it's totally possible for characterizations to bleed into each other. EDIT: Actually, if Patter Song is fine with it, I'd like to do an effortpost aimed at people who've seen the show. Feel free to nix it, though, it'd probably be decently long and a big block of black isn't super pleasant to scroll by. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 03:37
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Patter Song posted:Lol. It was all I could do to avoid writing a multiparagraph spoilered response to the Nanami discussion earlier.
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Aug 28, 2018 04:57
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Akio is a fascinating character and one of the few characters in RGU I absolutely hate. One of my favorite things is how in a lot of conversations I've seen people have about the anime, lots of people will take certain claims he's made at face value despite knowing he's the villain and that he lies about most anything, just because Anthy also backs up those claims a few times. I think it's interesting how tempting it is to accept the shared story presented by two extremely unreliable narrators because it fits a certain type of fairytale aesthetic and because it's all you have to go on, when if you read between the lines and accept that as a falsified version of events things get much darker.
PetraCore fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Aug 30, 2018 |
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Aug 30, 2018 16:23
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Leraika posted:It might be kinda cool to just have time for Utena analysis after the LP itself finishes up or something.
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Aug 30, 2018 17:56
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Azza Bamboo posted:Once you're clear of fever I'll remind you that the cowbell episode did in fact happen, as did Nanami's egg arc. Can't believe anthy hid chu-chu in an egg to gently caress with Nanami.
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Aug 31, 2018 01:02
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Okay, so, the thing about Touga that's gone into in the movie and I believe is also intended to be canon for the anime but isn't stated outright in the anime is a bit of a doozy. The second spoilered paragraph on gets into more plot-specific spoilers with my interpretation of the anime, the first deals only with the thing revealed in the movie. I've separated the spoiler tags so you can read one without the other. He and Nanami were adopted by a wealthy and powerful family when they were young, so young Nanami doesn't remember the adoption (this is stated outright in the anime). The reason they were adopted, however, is because their adoptive father, Mr. Kiryuu, is a pedophile who molested and raped Touga over an indeterminate period of time, with Touga not resisting because otherwise he was worried Mr. Kiryuu would move on to Nanami. This is something that neither Nanami or Saionji know, so it acts as a point of isolation for Touga, embittering him and slowly twisting his once-pure relationships with both of them in a way neither of them can understand the cause of. Furthermore, I believe it's a major point of motivation for Touga, as it essentially changes his anime arc to that of a survivor of severe sexual abuse searching for a way to regain a sense of power and control of his own body, but being blocked by the obstacles of silence, abuse coverups, and the idea that a boy can't be raped. Fight the patriarchy, Touga, don't become it! Without being able to express and process what happened to him in a healthy manner, Touga turns to the one person in Ohtori Academy who seems to have the power, control, and confidence Touga wants for himself, Akio Ohtori. An adult watching the Revolutionary Girl Utena anime can identify Akio as a pathetic man who manipulates children and teenagers to get what he wants and whose power actually comes from Anthy, but from Touga's point of view, Akio is genuinely cool, in charge, and unable to be hurt. This leaves Touga extremely vulnerable to being groomed by Akio, and in response Touga begins to emulate Akio as best he knows how, inflicting watered-down versions of Akio's manipulation and abuse of others on the people around him. He even starts to groom Nanami in an emulation of Akio's abuse of Anthy, and from my point of view as a sexual abuse survivor, I think it's because he wants the invulnerability he thinks Akio has. I could even go into how I feel that Touga is genuinely attracted to men as well as women, but his sexual abuse by an adult man combined with homophobic cultural rhetoric has left him entirely unable to deal with that part of himself. To Touga, attraction to another man is filthy and unclean, and while he can tolerate it with Akio because Akio has something Touga wants, I think that's also part of what causes him to treat Saionji so badly. It's pretty easy to read homoerotic and romantic overtones into Touga and Saionji's relationship, but that's also something that's really hard for either of them to deal with, so they dance around it, get super blatant about how attracted to women and totally straight they are when around each other, and then take out their jealousy or bitterness in extremely petty ways, such as when Touga burns Saionji's exchange diary with Anthy for basically no reason whatsoever. You can even interpret Saionji's entire relationship with Anthy as him fixating on the most seemingly bland and non-threatening girl in Ohtori to 'possess' in a twisted display of what he thinks romance is while not actually having to have a relationship. Touga's definitely attracted to Utena, though, and it's definitely plausible that Saionji is genuinely attracted to the person he thinks Anthy is while not being at all healthy with it. It's up to you! PetraCore fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 3, 2018 |
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Sep 3, 2018 22:15
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Patter Song posted:Kind of surprised no one has thoughts about the creepy image on the wall. EDIT: Alternatively, just a giant mecha piloted by Juri, Miki, Saionji, and Touga to defeat Utena.
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Sep 4, 2018 01:04
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Randalor posted:While Miki and Kozue have an... unhealthy relationship, Miki at least is attracted to girls that aren't his sister. He loves Kozue, but as a sibling. Kozue, on the other hand, LOVES Miki, and wants to feel him wrapped around her, and inside of her, and wants to eat his organs and wear his skin like a suit so that they can be together always. Also, she actively tries to sleep with everything with two legs and a dick. She's 13. I just feel like she knows her relationship with Miki is broken and wants to fix it, but is frustrated both by his idealization of her as a younger child and inability to deal with her now and by her own twisted ideas about sex and relationships. She's an angry, neglected kid who desperately wants attention and found a way to get it, and who throws herself into what she sees as the adult world way too early. Miki, meanwhile, is the perfect kid to adults, while being achingly vulnerable... she resents his vulnerability but also wants to protect him from adults who'd take advantage of it, which is why she pushes the creepy music teacher down the stairs. She wants to go back to the days where she wasn't achingly aware of her status as second-string to Miki, but is aware that's impossible, so she propels herself forward in an extremely childish and immature way. She also mostly treats Miki in a sisterly manner, it's not really canon that she wants to have sex with him, just that she uses sex with others as a way to try to get his attention. The situation is creepy, but I don't find her creepy. I just feel very sad for her. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 13, 2018 |
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Sep 13, 2018 02:06
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Let's just say I didn't much like the anniversary manga chapter that portrayed Kozue as a passive victim who literally goes catatonic when rejected by Miki and definitely wants to marry him, as opposed to a wild and reckless girl lashing out at the entire world and trying to grow up too fast. There's nothing passive about Kozue in either the anime or the movie.
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Sep 13, 2018 02:12
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Potsticker posted:Utena and Wakaba both would be good friends to have. Also, I'd much rather be alone in a room with Anthy than Akio, but that's not exactly a high bar, is it?
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Sep 13, 2018 22:21
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Refuse!
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Sep 18, 2018 05:39
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Catch the Culprit, Battler Song!
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Oct 4, 2018 02:45
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My assumption, and this is a complete guess and not a spoiler but I'm blacking it out anyway, is that Mikage is there to foreshadow that spooky lady is a g-g-g-g-ghost. Also assuming that spooky lady was in love with Patter's mom and is going to erase Patter as a result of making the relationship between her parents not happen. EDIT: Also, sleep with Utena. Sleepovers are fun, right?
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Oct 7, 2018 18:00
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Jury because she rules and Mysterious Person because poor protagonist-chan has horrific taste, in true RGU fashion.
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Oct 13, 2018 06:08
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I laughed out loud, thank you.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:56
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Say mother.
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Oct 17, 2018 05:46
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Azza Bamboo posted:One thing I did hear about Utena is that Ikuhara was adamant about using guns for the duels instead of swords, because there are more variants and more interesting poses they could use where swords are difficult to work with. They only decided against it because there was a high profile shooting before production started. It's always going to bug me wondering how that would have been.  Jokes aside that would have been pretty amazing. Say 38. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 17:23
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Patter Song posted:It'd pretty much have to be paintball just to keep with the victory condition of knocking the rose off, but it'd lose the advantage the swords have of being potentially fatal without being necessarily fatal.
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Oct 29, 2018 18:40
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I just realized in the timeline where Revolutionary Girl Utena is about guns and not swords, Pearl from Steven Universe just uses, like, a loving uzi, and that's beautiful. Okay, CLEARLY she'd have two floral engraved revolvers.
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Oct 30, 2018 05:35
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Truthkeeper posted:Finally managed to finish binging this thread. I'm disappointed that people like the protagonist this much. You have to admit that even though Saionji's the worst person who isn't Akio or Anthy it certainly would have been interesting to see what actively pursuing him with protagonist powers would be like. Like, you get that she's not ACTUALLY an evil witch, right? That's the justification Akio uses for abusing her, as well as 'she enjoys it' when he rapes her and 'she doesn't enjoy anything anyway' for his abuse in general. She is absolutely untrustworthy because she's been sucked into playing along with his poo poo and the only outlet she has for her negative emotions is lashing out manipulatively at other people, which ends up being really easy to do when playing her role involves them abusing her in the first place. But it bothers me when I see people spouting Akio's rhetoric to explain why Anthy is scary. I'm not trying to say that she has no responsibility for her actions, there are some real doozies in there like setting up Utena to be preyed on by Akio and her long-standing gaslighting and assault campaign against Nanami, but I think contextually she's supposed to be a person worn down by god knows how long of abuse and isolation, and while Utena can't save her from her situation, Utena can and did accept Anthy as a person worthy of being treated like a person even after seeing Anthy at her worst, and that's a powerful thing when you've been told for so long that you're an evil witch who soils everything you touch and that nobody other than your abuser and rapist could tolerate being around you. Sure, Utena gets hurt in the aftermath, but I don't see her disappearance as a bad thing, and I think that the ending is ultimately hopeful with both Utena and Anthy escaping the unhealthy coping mechanisms that kept them in Ohtori. EDIT: That said, it's totally cool if someone else has a completely different take, one of the big themes in RGU is that people don't fall neatly into the categories of abuser and survivor a ton of the time, especially if things go unaddressed and unprocessed. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 02:57
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Patter Song posted:I think part of the problem is that Utena's male character designs are...not particularly attractive (Akio possibly excepted). Touga is clearly supposed to be the eye candy of the show but even he is strangely...angular. Also, they're all colossal douchebags excepting Miki, and Miki is dull and uninteresting.
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Nov 2, 2018 02:58
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Camel Pimp posted:Anthy is... easily the most "difficult" character of the show, but probably the most important to it's themes and metaphors. She's the abuse victim, the princess, the witch, and the archetypal feminine all in one. Perhaps, as the archetypal feminine, it's fitting that both viewers and the show's own characters only see one part of her. The men view her as an object, to possess or for furthering other goals. The women mostly see her as disgusting and off-putting. Even Utena only sees one part of her, the victim. Uh, I kind of got distracted there, but what I mean to say is that by the time Utena opens the gate and reaches into Anthy's coffin, she can no longer see Anthy purely as an abuse survivor, but she is willing to fight through intense pain and bloody her hands to reach for Anthy anyway. And that's always had a huge impact on me, as someone who feels like I don't have a lot of worth due to my own internalized bullshit. Patter Song posted:Trying to stay out of the Anthy chat except to point out that she's such a fantastically-written character that it's totally possible to have diametrically opposed views of what her role/character is and be able to support them with evidence from the source material. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Nov 2, 2018 |
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Nov 2, 2018 05:28
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Potsticker posted:I do feel that you are letting Anthy off too easy, though maybe that's not the appropriate way to put it. I do feel that while Akio is the cause of why Anthy is as bad as she is, but I don't have a good answer for "if someone else is the cause of someone being terrible, at what point can you blame the victim when they end up terrible as well?" In my position I think it's terrible what happened to her, and the decisions she makes is regrettable, but I don't think Anthy ever really shows any indication of wanting to change herself. I know I stated my opinions earlier in the thread about not liking Anthy and a lot of that is due to because she takes no actions to work towards her own freedom, but I do see where you're coming from and why you view her in that way. In terms of the character with the most engaging character arc to me, though, that's definitely got to be Nanami. Nanami also starts out as a pretty lovely person, and like Anthy she has her reasons for being such, but you see her growth over the course of the story and in the end I think she's the character best placed to leave Ohtori and move on to something healthier. Like, she literally puts in a transfer request because she realizes her relationship with Touga is unhealthy and that he's bad for her. That's a huge amount of self-awareness that I don't think any other character displays.
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Nov 2, 2018 16:23
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Okay, I'll stop. Sorry, Patter Song!
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Nov 2, 2018 16:59
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Blue Labrador posted:I agree that Miki isn't really sexually attractive in his own right, but I don't think he's dull and uninteresting. He's actually one of my favorite characters on the show simply because he gets along with everyone. I guess that's not purely "on him" so to speak, but I think a lot is added to the other characters and the show as a whole in how he brings out a lot of positive character traits you don't normally see from the others simply by being one of the few non-hostile relationships they have with another person.
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Nov 3, 2018 01:18
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Azza Bamboo posted:I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of this character. Going to vote for Fencing based on this, even tho I'm super curious about Newspaper.
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Nov 4, 2018 23:21
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Ask her why she fights.
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Nov 10, 2018 01:45
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I definitely wanna see what's on Chigusa's route. Gaslighting and pain, presumably. EDIT: Like I'm most curious about her route bc she's original for the game, so I genuinely am not sure what to expect.
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Nov 15, 2018 00:30
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Revolutionary Girl Utena is one of the shows where I always stick 'it's about the aftereffects of abuse including csa and incest' as a warning when reccing it to people. Especially since I have friends for which that's a personal topic, without even getting into how much the average person doesn't want to deal with surprise csa in fiction. What surprises me is how much that can be a surprise for people despite the show being 20 years old and relatively well-known in queer anime circles! I think content warnings can be really useful contextually and it's fine if people don't prefer them, but I also think there's certain topics where it's not really okay to just spring it on people unwarned, even if you're being cagey about the exact circumstances and characters it pertains to. EDIT: I've had to do that with Mawaru Penguindrum, too, and MP is generally a lot less sexually themed in its abuse exploration!
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Nov 15, 2018 03:09
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It's interesting that there's a town around Ohtori! Even more interesting that it seems to be a part of the... nature of Ohtori. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 17, 2018 |
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Nov 17, 2018 23:22
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Flac posted:I think that handful of times we see characters outside the school in the series, or even how occasionally students transfer from the school AND come back for reasons that're normal on paper, are intentional for showing Ohtori as this overwhelming, inescapable presence, and not in a literal magic cursed prison sense. You could technically leave if you wanted to, but it won't mean anything when the school has taught everybody in the show what unattainable ideals they should strive for. And it allows, even paradoxically rewards, cynicism taking hold in people when they try and fail to live up to the ideal. Even the ones who leave and come back do so out of insecurity of not really getting what they want, or as a misguided attempt to fix the system. It's less like no one can leave Ohtori, and more that Ohtori can never leave any of them.
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Nov 18, 2018 21:37
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Chigusa is pretty interesting! I think we should be honest and tell her there's someone we've noticed. After all, even if I want to learn more about her, trying to game her like an otome character just seems to lose points. I also want to check out what sort of games are in a Revolutionary Gamer Arcade. EDIT: Also, it seems to me that asking if she has a boyfriend isn't positive for her because she's actually super heterosexual, but because she gets her femininity dismissed a lot and coming onto her as a girl just reads as another form of that to her. Given the emphasis on how boyish she looks when her art doesn't reflect that (except maybe? in height and sharpness of face?), I could definitely buy her as trans at this point, but given the series deconstruction of gender roles, that's not necessarily the case. Disclaimer that I'm cis, but I think in any conversation about gender roles, it's worth discussing how that relates to trans people, and how trans people relate to them. I've found that in the heavily LGBT communities I've been a part of, competing needs is something that comes up a lot, where a lack of gendered associations is freeing and comfortable for some people and extremely uncomfortable for others who are trying to signal something about their gender. It's not something I completely understand myself, but it's important to people. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Nov 19, 2018 |
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Nov 19, 2018 21:34
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We don't need no stinking Prince! Patter-chan wants equality in relationships!
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Nov 26, 2018 18:42
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Dang, I was gonna vote for Miki.
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Dec 6, 2018 02:01
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Potsticker posted:Miki wouldn't have been a bad choice, either, since he's getting pretty low as well.
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Dec 8, 2018 01:28
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Utena is Strong and let's worry about Chigusa. EDIT: I think calling Juri weak is wrong, and saying fencing is about luck insults the skill involved. If you conclude that Utena was strong, though, it's respecting Juri as a strong contender. I don't know if that's the right answer for Juri, but it seems like the honorable choice. It'd be funny if that was the right choice and reasoning for Saionji, but not Juri.
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Dec 9, 2018 22:55
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Saionji because it's funny.
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Jan 4, 2019 06:56
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Patter Song posted:Saionji...wins...??? 
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Jan 6, 2019 05:33
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