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Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Dang, I was hoping for castle reviews.

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Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I kinda wanted more of that Star Trek LP because jank game + Star Trek chat seemed like a great formula.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I've kinda fallen off them all hard. Stream VODs just aren't the same as LPs, and nothing they're playing is really catching my eye.

Although on the flip side I've been watching the VODs of Vinny's Mother 3 playthrough as a result of my friends dragging me into watching his streams.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Oh right, I was thinking about watching those. I'll be sure to check them out since I need some stuff to watch this weekend.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Pat is at his best when he has silly energy / enthusiasm over stuff.

Eg
https://twitter.com/bandainamcono/status/1086218181340024832?s=21

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Dabir posted:

he's right

Yeah. Complexity for complexity's sake is often silly. It's pretty much the reason I loathe Dota.

I can see the arguments for it ("who can execute better under pressure" and "I find it fun") but if you care more about the mind games aspect of fighting games, then it's just a detriment. It's cool that there's games like Fantasy Strike that are trying to strip away input complexity.

That said, it's removing the execution barrier for both players. I made the mistake of thinking I stood a better chance in Fantasy Strike then I did other fighting games. I did not.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


TechnoSyndrome posted:

It's not complexity for complexity's sake it's so you aren't accidentally throwing a fire ball ever. If you map fireball to something like forward and punch you're not going to be able to punch while walking forward unless you let go of the stick first. Also if you think a fireball motion is complicated you either haven't played a fighting game in 20 years or you gave up after five minutes. Modern fighting games are incredibly forgiving with motions.

And before someone says "well Smash Bros had simplified special moves" Smash Bros literally only has two attack buttons, and one is devoted entirely to special moves.
If I have to open up a move list and study and commit poo poo to memory, I'd argue that's a touch on the side of complexity for the sake of complexity.
You also cant' tell me there isn't motions more complex then fireballs, but I'll cop to not playing many modern fighting games so I'm unfamiliar with how forgiving things are.

Dias posted:

I mean, if you guys played Rising Thunder you'd understand why you don't wanna simplify inputs a lot, but that would assume that people that bitch about motions in fighting games actually play them, so...
I was going to include something about this in my last post, because yeah, my girlfriend who is good at fighting games, resoundingly whomps me in Fantasy Strike because she has all the experience of playing fighting games and is now unchained by input complexity.

That said, I feel like if I actually wanted to give an honest go at learning fighting games, I'd rather go for something with less input complexity because my garbage brains suck at remembering move lists.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I'm surprised for all the crossover Giant Bomb talks, no-one suggested that madness that could come from Dan & Pat.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


beep by grandpa posted:

Yo can someone sell me on the katamari damacy lp? I wasn't digging the first two eps and jumped off to ZOE2 and fell off cause I find woolie & friend's energy too dull to stay engaged. ZOE2 seems hopeless cause there's just so much silence but does katamari pick up and get better? I guess I'm asking do they ever get the ball rolling?

It's chill and feel good. You don't need to engage fully, just put it on in the background and enjoy the good times. Woolie's friend pulls up some stories about the people around the game's music that's pretty interesting. Also, Woolie sings along near perfectly to Cherry Tree Times :3:

TheManSeries posted:

I'm maybe not comfortable that his girlfriend bumps arms with some uncool folk.

I know you kinda backed down a few posts up, but for what it's worth she also had some tweets recently about trans rights around the hbomberguy stream stuff, and basically told someone off for the tired "why do we need trans rights, its just human rights herp derp" nonsense.

Iunno, I don't think I care a ton for whatever associations she had and the way she doubled down on them, but Paige also just doesn't strike me as "write off them and anyone surrounding them" kinds of bad.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


TheManSeries posted:

As it stands, I'll probably keep things at arms length. I dont watch a bunch of solo streams, it's just that podcasts get me through my work hours. I never really did many LPs unless something really hit me. I'm glad to see those changes and I enjoyed some of the on podcast support towards it. Just cautious still.

For what it's worth I haven't really gotten into the solo streams either, and I followed the LPs pretty heavily at times. Just not the same. Woolie's Katamari LP is nice but I haven't really found time to watch the other stuff. Tried to watch Matt's Travis Strikes Again LP but it's a bit dull from the early parts of the game & lack of a co-commentator.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Links Awakening seems extremely like a "no just put it on the Switch dammit" game that could have been destined for the 3DS.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Andrast posted:

I'm glad it's coming to the much better console instead

Yeah, me too. I just thought I recall the boys (and others) complaining about the last few 3DS titles with a "no put it on the switch." So I hope this gets acknowledgement that they maybe could have put it on 3DS, but didn't. :v:

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Reddit is all over the place. It's a toxic shthole in the greater sense, but, I've seen decent patches of pushback against transphobia and similar in places like r/games. The bestfriends sub has usually been pretty cool from the times Ive checked on it.

What reddit has on 4chan is probably volume/size/traffic, so the statement probably isn't ultimately wrong.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I thought I saw Cliffy first try to respond with a gif, so I guess he had to pull out the "im rich" after more people dragged him.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


lmao someone is trying to drag Pat in defence of Cliffy, pointing out how he's fat and bald, and Pat's response is pretty much just "that's the best you got?!" and then follows up with bringing up the giant chocolate rabbit.

Pat is a dangerous enemy. He'll sooner throw himself under the bus then be bothered by petty insults.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


somepartsareme posted:

listening to the catherine section on the podcast. pat repeating that atlus makes japanese games for japanese people and therefore it's understandable that they have super bigoted poo poo in them is an annoying trope

I got the impression he was saying that more from the perspective of "Atlus doesn't care how the west feels on this subject" (and are catering to an audience that doesn't reject this sort of trope/representation?) it's not so much understandable or excusable, it's just their culture/attitude? Like I don't think he's going to bat for them it's "Atlas don't care!"

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


yeah, I was worried it'd be a repeat of the Fallout 76 one of hitting on what's hot without much juicy dirt, but I wasn't really familiar with much of the story and it seemed like he did a pretty good job with it - much stronger episode for sure.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I'm almost certain they once brought up being a bit uncomfortable with a tip jar after how generous people got with the mailbag.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Late to the party stuff, but:

1) I'm glad they spent a bit of time complaining about the game that's not out being at EVO rather then spending the time exclusively dunking on melee, after seeing a deluge of the latter on twitter with almost none of the former. :v:

2) Billy/Mihn's joke/inadvertent sandbag game, and Woolie's total collapse in Degrees of Separation was loving aces.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Captain Invictus posted:

Oh god, the mihn obliviousness bit on the podcast. Good lord that must be immensely awkward, anyone got a link to that moment? I forget what video woolie said it was in.

"Degrees of Separation" on Woolie's Channel. The whole thing might be worth a watch because it happens several times, and the video ends with Woolie trying to walk Mihn through the process of how to do jokes.

The "barrier between you and your girlfriend" setup feels like that gif where the guy is trying to sink a basket and a guy in a gumby(I think?) suit walks through the door and slaps the ball to the ground.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Matt needs someone to play off or share energy with. I tried watching the Travis Strikes again videos and it’s a boring without a co-commentator.

Like my favourite Matt moments are when he’s energetic and playing off someone. Also making dumb voices or referencing simpsons or Star Trek.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


They're skipping this week because Pat's sick.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I'd say some people can get away with live commentary, a bunch of streamers certainly manage it. Vinesauce Vinny comes to mind immediately. Also if you're an LPer who's style is to just play a few of the same games forever and just kind of ramble about tangents and such, you can manage solo commentary.

Really depends on your style and audience, but I mostly agree, solo-live-commentary doesn't really work for Matt. It might work okay in a format for something shorter where he has something specific to show off.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I thoroughly enjoyed Vinny's Mother 3 stream just watching the archives of it.

But Vinny might be the exception to the rule because I can't think of a ton of other solo streamers/LPers I enjoy.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


somepartsareme posted:

or when they got so mad about the doa thing and framing it as "people cant handle female sexuality"

Which was this? The most recent DOA thing I can think of was the stuff where they were complaining about how the season pass was kinda gross, mostly from a monetizing whales perspective. I remember them qualifying someting to the degree of "we don't mind the tiddies/sexy lady stuff" but I don't remember too much of them framing complaints as being an issue with the content and not the money stuff. Mighta just went over my head.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Blockhouse posted:

This Anthem Wha Happun is like

actually really bad

"I saw a guy speculating on Reddit" is not actual research

I kinda worried that'd be the case when I saw him announce it.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Apparently Gearbox's PAX thing was kinda messy? They lead with some Tiny Tina tabletop thing and had a messy middle segment that apparently involved Randy doing an on-stage magic trick and a whole bunch of technical snafus trying to show the Borderlands 3 trailer. Apparently Randy got a bit mad / complained over the technical issues?

Didn't watch the stream myself, but the common thread seems to be "that was a mess." Look forward to what Pat and Woolie have to say. :v:

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007



He really isn't.

I get the defensiveness over soulsborne difficulty. But some kind of assist mode really wouldn't take away from everyone else because everyone else always has the option to not play them.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


"Aw gently caress, I beat the game on normal and there's an easy, I guess my accomplishment means nothing"

said literally noone ever.

scary ghost dog posted:

if i lose a lot in fighting games i should be allowed to do more damage to my opponent, or he should have less health or something. its not fair that i cant win at fighting games. i want the experience of winning

Competitive games are not the same as single player games you disingenuous clod.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


scary ghost dog posted:

sekiro lets you rebind the controls and use the microsoft disabled person controller.....not sure how it isnt “accessible.” if u cant beat it then watch someone else do it or beat it with cheat engine. its unreasonable to demand a full rebalance of the game to fit your ability

Or rather then getting huffy every time people suggest the notion of accessibility options in the form of difficulty settings, you could just, not?

Like it literally does not effect you in the slightest. Sekiro adding an easy mode or assist mode will not take away the normal difficulty. I'm not even convinced people are demanding a "full rebalance" of Sekrio so much as people are kind of using it as a proxy to talk about difficulty as an accessibility issue, and whether or not it's important games have a singular "vision" difficulty. Games like Celeste seem to be tough as nails will still offering options if you want to ease the difficulty. Games have been challenging in the past while having difficulty options. There's not a lot of reasons why games can't push their ideal difficulty while having some easy mode options under some accessibility settings.

This honestly just reminds me of people shouting down people asking for better representation in games. Like, it literally doesn't hurt you. No-one is taking away your hard games, unless you feel like you won't be able to help yourself from picking the easy settings?

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


CuddlyZombie posted:

It’s not a matter of “it’s hurting/not hurting me”, it’s a matter of diminishing the art. Like, if an author wants to release an abridged or annotated version of a book, then that’s their prerogative, but to act as if they have a moral imperative to do so is absurd.

But does it really matter when you frontline the proper format? You present a "here's the way the game is meant to be experienced" and have players who start up the game launch into it without any difficult chocies presented, but you have some assist settings in a menu with a (non-condescending) warning that they'd disrupt the intended balance of the game.

Where do you draw the line with "diminishing the art" - button mapping, colour blind settings, sub titles, all could be argued to disrupt the art. On numerous occasions I've had subtitles spoil something a moment ahead of time, because they're poorly timed, or getting subs for things you shouldn't be able to hear, or I find myself not fully paying to the cutscene or what's happening because I'm reading the subs. I still rather the setting because of the benefits it provides, and because I don't like to take chances with running into cutscenes or moments where the mixing sucks rear end.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Like, I suck rear end at games, but I managed to get through all of Soulsborne save Demons' (don't have it.) I honestly kind of agree the difficulty is a big part of what makes those games kind of special and I don't think I would have had the same experience had I not had to feel like I had to overcome certain things. I'm not advocating for easy options out of personal desire - I have a bad habit of banging my head on a wall rather then turning down the difficulty or seeking easier options - but I believe that people can still have the same experience at a lower difficulty setting, and there are things outside of the difficulty that make soulsborne special.

To suggest soulsborne lives or dies on it's difficulty doesn't really give the game enough credit, IMO.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


scary ghost dog posted:

neither of the games i mentioned have easy modes. mario odyssey does not have the 3D world powerups and the witness does not offer hints. and googling how to solve puzzles is no different than just watching a youtube playthrough

https://twinfinite.net/2017/10/super-mario-odyssey-how-to-use-assist-mode-and-what-it-does/

quote:

For series newcomers or players who might find Super Mario Odyssey to be a tad challenging, the game provides an Assist Mode that makes the game considerably easier. And the best part is, there doesn’t seem to be any downside or penalty to using it.

First off, the game offers you the choice to use Assist Mode when you boot it up for the first time. However, if you chose to progress through the game normally, you can still turn it on if you change your mind later.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


CuddlyZombie posted:

I think as long as it’s done exactly as you describe, with a VERY clear message on what the INTENDED difficulty is, ala Celeste, then it’s fine, albeit somewhat missing the point if the game is ABOUT difficulty. But I still don’t think it’s something to impose on the creator. For example, something like Getting Over It would have made zero sense if it was easy, at that point why bother?

I do like subtitles for dialogue but I don’t think audio captions for something like a monster’s tells would make sense. I guess I would put a distinction where it affects the gameplay, as opposed to something affecting cinematic direction? I don’t really have strong opinions on that stuff either way though, to be honest.

The thing is, at the end of the day, no-one can FORCE FromSoft to do anything.

All this is people advocating for assist modes and whatnot, and providing compelling arguments for why they would be a net positive.

No doubt Getting Over It would not be the same if it was easy, but its a much smaller niche indie game made by a single person, not a massive experience by a large studio. The accessibility discussion has never been something about covering every single game ever. There's going to be games and experiences that might not be helped by accessibility options - but doesn't mean people shouldn't provide suggestions, solutions, or strive to make gaming as a whole more accessible.

But to go back to Getting Over It - i'd argue there could be an easy mode that wouldn't diminish the experience because no-one is forced to use it. There's still competely the effect of "holy poo poo you beat the game without the assist mode?!"

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


CuddlyZombie posted:

Actually video games are good, and not dumb.

I agree, and I think more people being able to have fun with them is cool.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


no more tv or movie adaptations of print media they're diminishing the art of books

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Captain Baal posted:

Buy DMC5, you fucks

but it has an easy mode so I won't feel accomplished

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Does Sekiro even have any "actually there's already an easy mode" mechanics? I don't think it's necessarily the best argument for Souls games because it's not really true accessibility settings, but at least it's something address difficulty in some sense.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Accessibility is a larger issue that cant be solved by adding an easy mode and by putting the focus on "easy mode means accessibility for the disabled" its ends up creating a false framework that ends up excluding other types of disability and other options to deal with those issues.

Okay, but difficulty / assist modes are still part of the equation. To the same point people seem to be arguing accessibility just means more flexible control schemes and colour blind settings.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like, there is never this level of concern when things like color blind mode, fov sliders, and hold/mash are not available

There was certainly a bunch of guff about the Spyro remakes having no subtitles, and there's frequently complaints about bad subtitles. FOV sliders are frequently complained about. I also frequently see awareness regarding colourblind settings.

Game Maker's Toolkit's Designing for Disability pretty much covered all the facets. Jimquisition has be bringing up FOV and colorblind among a few other accessibility issues for years.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


I mean, it sucks there's probably people doing that, but trying to make a point out of it feels kinda...eh? Particularly when I see people doing the exact opposite of "well this guy with a disability says he doesn't need an easy mode!"

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Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007


Mel Mudkiper posted:

So, I've been reflecting on it and I wonder, would the issue be better solved by improved hardware and methods of interface?

Like, returning to the disability question, if hardware were improved to reach a point where a person without traditional dexterity was able to interface with the game in a way practically identical to someone using a traditional controller, is a lack of easy mode still a discriminatory prohibition?

Like, if we removed the aspect of physical disability limiting manual dexterity, is a limitation in a form of difficulty still discriminatory?

You didn't reflect very hard. There's more disabilities then physical ones, or ones related to controllers & inputs, m'dude.

Like, there's many ways to tackle accessibility for various disabilities, and in many cases targeted solutions (such as colour blind settings ) are more efficient/effective. But stuff like Assist modes & difficulty settings and remappable controllers make for better broad approaches.

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