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Eiba posted:So one of my closest friends moved from the US to Italy today to start his PhD. I guess it's time for me to start paying attention to Italian politics. Politicians doing us/them propaganda rather than solid programs. Centre left looked like clowns during the summer negotiations so people went centre right. Edit: if your friend is doing STEM topics under the umbrella of CNR I would start to get worried. The first budget cut of every right/centre-right government is education and research. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 06:09
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Does declaring Meloni PM seem a big premature? - There's no actual results yet - A coalition has to be formed - Such a coalition could include all parties but the Brothers, like last time - It shouldn't be assumed Salvini and Berlusconi will serve under her leadership: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/25/italy-internal-rivalry-could-threaten-the-stability-of-a-meloni-led-coalition
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Sep 26, 2022 07:38
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Does declaring Meloni PM seem a big premature? No. Results are pretty clear, FdI has a strong political mandate.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:02
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SlowBloke posted:I wonder how quickly the EU will start their proceedings to gently caress us like Hungary. Days? Hours? what actions by the new government have engendered this immediate EU response? i assume the EU put in place some sort of Red Line where in the event of the coalition's victory, sanctions would immediately take effect. based on your post, this has occurred. since that's a thing that definitely 100% happened, do you think the EU is somewhat premature in its judgement?
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Sep 26, 2022 08:15
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i say swears online posted:what actions by the new government have engendered this immediate EU response? i assume the EU put in place some sort of Red Line where in the event of the coalition's victory, sanctions would immediately take effect. based on your post, this has occurred. Afaik the fawning over Putin and rhetorics about unilaterally removing sanctions on Russia would be a huge middle finger to the EU that would need to be adressed if they dare go through with them. But no, it would not happen as long as it is just hot air. If Italy unilaterally starts to circumvent the sanctions, then poo poo will hit the fan.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:26
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i say swears online posted:what actions by the new government have engendered this immediate EU response? i assume the EU put in place some sort of Red Line where in the event of the coalition's victory, sanctions would immediately take effect. based on your post, this has occurred. The last message from Berlusconi before the election was "Putin is such a good egg, stop ganging up on him". It's not good optics. Ramrod Hotshot posted:Does declaring Meloni PM seem a big premature? Her party has the absolute majority in her coalition, and she is a gloryhound. It's pretty much certain she is going to be PM. Berlusca and Salvini are not stupid, they will follow if it means they get safe seats in government with similar numbers. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 08:37
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SlowBloke posted:The last message from Berlusconi before the election was "Putin is such a good egg, stop ganging up on him". It's not good optics. the EU wasted a decade with a silk glove toward orban yet you think they'll immediately sanction the third largest economy in Europe before it takes any action
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Sep 26, 2022 08:57
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I agree, Von Der Leyen misspoke. The new government is going to avoid disrupting our relationship with the EU institutions, don't worry. We'll aim for that specific silk glove
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Sep 26, 2022 09:03
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eject italy, cauterize the wound
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Sep 26, 2022 09:07
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i say swears online posted:eject italy, cauterize the wound The brexit party (italexit) got less than two percent so good luck with that. Much like NATO there is no option to kick someone out. Edit: Final data is kinda LOL https://www.rainews.it/elezioni-politiche-2022.html. Campania being the only reason M5S got any seat should remove any doubts on why they still exist. Trentino not voting as per usual for their irredentist party is surprising, they usually have more votes for them. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 09:11
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Our media started calling her "post-fascist" and I'm still not sure if I understand what the gently caress that even means.i say swears online posted:what actions by the new government have engendered this immediate EU response? i assume the EU put in place some sort of Red Line where in the event of the coalition's victory, sanctions would immediately take effect. based on your post, this has occurred. IIRC the sanctions on Hungary were to address specific violations of EU treaties and these violations were confirmed by courts. I don't think anything in the EU apparatus can just whip out extra-judicial sanctions on members based on vibes. Italy is gonna have to act first.
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Sep 26, 2022 09:13
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SlowBloke posted:The brexit party (italexit) got less than two percent so good luck with that. Much like NATO there is no option to kick someone out. SlowBloke posted:I wonder how quickly the EU will start their proceedings to gently caress us like Hungary. Days? Hours? I honestly don't understand your synthesis here. do you want hungarian journalism law?
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Sep 26, 2022 09:16
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GABA ghoul posted:Our media started calling her "post-fascist" and I'm still not sure if I understand what the gently caress that even means. It's fash topics without a national-socialist spin. We don't care about the nation prosperity but we will happily sink the immigrant ships since we don't understand their language and costumes. i say swears online posted:I honestly don't understand your synthesis here. do you want hungarian journalism law? I'm just worried about LEGA/FdI/FI doing some boneheaded choice the second they get in charge given that they are deep in Russia pocket. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 09:17
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GABA ghoul posted:Italy is gonna have to act first. that's what I'm getting at
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Sep 26, 2022 09:17
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And I don't think our new government is going to shoot itself in the foot this early. I'm saying this again, Tajani is probably the most relevant politician in Forza Italia right now, he's the vicepresident of PPE and he's part of the rightwing coalition. If everything goes according to plan, I think we'll slowly slide into an Orban-adjacent situation. Without breaking treaties - simply normalizing the rise of rightwing parties in the rest of Europe. Char fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 10:25
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Char posted:Ans I don't think our new government is going to shoot itself in the foot this early. It's Italy. Hard to imagine things going to plan. 
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Sep 26, 2022 10:27
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Charlz Guybon posted:It's Italy. Hard to imagine things going to plan. I'd normally agree but, this time? The plan is "don't gently caress around with debt", which is not that hard once you start privatizing services. For instance, in coming times I expect stricter access to education, welfare, and healthcare.
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Sep 26, 2022 11:57
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Char posted:For instance, in coming times I expect stricter access to education, welfare, and healthcare. Edit: if you really want to hate mankind, go on twitter and look at the #fascismo hashtag, 90% are idiots clamoring that vaccination and green pass were that and 10% radical chic. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 12:17
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I wanted to post about the new government but it seems everything's being kept under wraps. The thing I'm irritated the most about Fratelli d'Italia is that there's at least a couple shotcallers who know what they're doing - Giorgia Meloni is very good at changing register depending on their interlocutors, being a populist with mobs and a stateswoman with the EU parliament, and Guido Crosetto is drat scary by how rational, logic and inspired he acts. You see, their party was propped up by protest vote - much of the population wanted a break from a "bankers' government", or expressed weariness at the supposed intellectual and moral superiority of Draghi. And then these two I mentioned are currently saying that Italy's current situation offers very little wiggling room, and cooperating with the exiting government is mandatory, in order to have the smoothest possible transition. But they're not saying that too loud. Actually, they're whispering. Char fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Sep 30, 2022 |
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Sep 30, 2022 12:33
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Apparently some finnish lady complained about the school in syracuse and it lit a big fire, or so they claim. I haven't seen what she wrote and haven't google translated what it says there so I dunno yet, trying to find the original in english. Just wondering what do italians think of your school system or her criticism for that matter? This was apparently the original publication https://www.siracusanews.it/lettera...liano-e-povero/ edit: This is aso where I found out about this and they interview the mom, gotta google translate it though. https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-10026312 His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jan 12, 2023 |
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Jan 12, 2023 13:37
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I can offer up a full translation of the lady's open letter if anyone's interested, but the gist of it is: she's scandalised at how backwards the school system is compared to Finland. Children are expected to sit the full day in their chairs with just a 15 min break in between, as opposed to Finland where they get plentiful breaks and to breathe fresh air. Teachers also seem to be under considerable stress and/or adopt poor pedagogy, one of the complaints she expresses is that teachers frequently scream at children, or belittle them etc, and workload for the children is in any case excessive according to her. Finally, our piss-poor car-dependent infrastructure makes our streets extremely dangerous so that children can't reliably achieve any independence by eg biking over to school, and traffic around schools is nightmarish. School lunches were apparently not provided (ed note: this is a North-South divide thing, school days have been shortened in the South so as to save public money so no school cafeterias. Yay inherited backwardness!), which also didn't help. Personally I'm of two minds on the issue. I am a product of our school system and on the one hand I can appreciate how much it gave me, the cultural foundations it provided me are extremely broad, it expected me to develop a lot of critical thinking skills for myself to get through, and I generally feel that on a baseline level it provides a lot more than what I have felt my peers from different EU countries have. This is anecdotal of course, and should be treated accordingly. On the other hand: yes, our system is still pretty backwards, pedagogy-wise, the workload pretty demanding and the public education sector suffers from chronic neglect, especially these past 30 years of continuous slashed funding. Teachers are severely underpaid, classes often overpopulated, buildings are crumbling, and extracurriculars are often lacking. The broad education it provides can be very good, but is of no immediate use for professional life, and is useful in more subtle ways. Which I personally find the correct approach, but it nevertheless comes at a cost, in terms of pressure and workload, as well as people deciding for different schooling systems that can provide more immediate and tangible benefits. But the broad strokes are correct. Our system is severely neglected, our cities are terrible due to car dependence, especially in the South (but most major cities just lack a metro or tram system in general, relying instead on roads and buses). I would say that, like most things in Italy, the farther north you go the more in line your experience will be with other European countries. The South has long-standing issues and development of that region has stopped dead in its tracks since around 50 years ago, so the difference will be more extreme, especially if coming from a rich Nordic country like Finland. I can see why they are shocked, but to be honest, did they just not notice how Syracuse was when they moved there? It's not like they were moving to a place that outwardly looks exactly like, I dunno, Göteborg, or Tampere. Also the fuckers just moved here for their bougie full remote jobs and complain about the standards here, then immediately left, so I am severely tempted to answer that they can suck my dick and balls. We just gotta suck it up I guess. e: now that I've had time to reflect on why I'm put off by their attitude I think I can coalesce it here. It seems like they just came into a place they chose with no prior research, and are now choosing to spit on it when it refused to bend to their desires or be their personal quaint workcation spot, as reasonable and correct as their desires might be. Just really offputting bougie and entitled attitude I guess. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jan 12, 2023 |
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Jan 12, 2023 14:12
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May I complain about the decreto flussi as an American? I have a job offer, and I have 14 years of experience as an embedded Linux engineer, 5 of which are in a niche field (electric vehicle charging). Still, the decreto flussi doesn't include US Citizens this year, and I can't get a blue card because Italia doesn't recognize experience in place of a degree. My only option is to get a student visa and later convert it to a work visa, as far as we can tell. I'm fortunate that my future boss is incredibly patient and still wants me to work for him.  Edit: I guess it's a blessing. I can finally get a degree! My best friend lives in San Ginesio and wants to return to get his master's, so I will probably be enrolling at the university of Camerino! FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Feb 15, 2023 |
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Feb 15, 2023 00:50
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FlapYoJacks posted:May I complain about the decreto flussi as an American? My dude, the experience doesn’t count as a degree issue runs deep in every bit of Italian gov. I have over ten years of public sector employment, certs up the rear end and the first kid out of university can and will get a place that outranks me. Doing the Camerino uni option is a cool idea, so break a leg.
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Feb 15, 2023 18:47
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SlowBloke posted:My dude, the experience doesn’t count as a degree issue runs deep in every bit of Italian gov. I have over ten years of public sector employment, certs up the rear end and the first kid out of university can and will get a place that outranks me. Thanks! It's a pain in the rear end, and I never got my degree because I never needed one. Also, the cost didn't justify the end result of me not making any more money. This is me in a few months I guess! 
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Feb 15, 2023 22:26
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UniCam is a nice place, go for it. The only thing you should be aware of is that getting a degree in Italy won't be a quick task unless you perfectly mesh with our university system. SlowBloke posted:My dude, the experience doesn’t count as a degree issue runs deep in every bit of Italian gov. I have over ten years of public sector employment, certs up the rear end and the first kid out of university can and will get a place that outranks me. High five Char fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Feb 16, 2023 |
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Feb 16, 2023 17:53
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Char posted:UniCam is a nice place, go for it. I am fine taking the longer route. It’s cheaper than the states and my employer is cool with me working “part time.”
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Feb 16, 2023 22:11
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FlapYoJacks posted:I am fine taking the longer route. It’s cheaper than the states and my employer is cool with me working “part time.” 🚨 A student visa has very strict limitations on full and part time employment, be very careful. Have your potential employer do a double check with their legal staff.
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Feb 16, 2023 22:32
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Necroing the thread to have a heartfelt laugh with Char, the massive shitflinging after the new decreto appalti is quite comical, both as a citizen and as a gov employee.
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Mar 30, 2023 22:37
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Can somebody provide some context about that for a non-Italian citizen? I’ve been curious to learn more about the political situation in Italy, and while the thread seems to have slowed down recently, I understand that things are kind of grim right now.
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Apr 1, 2023 05:29
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Mushroom Zingdom posted:Can somebody provide some context about that for a non-Italian citizen? I’ve been curious to learn more about the political situation in Italy, and while the thread seems to have slowed down recently, I understand that things are kind of grim right now. I can do one better, since I'm involved on both sides on the fences(citizen and gov employee). Until now every single government purchase followed a very strict set of rules. The first step is direct purchase("affidamento diretto") which is used for small purchases, where you need to find your required product or service at a reasonable price and then you are barred to repurchase the same kind of product from the same vendor for a while(to avoid locking the purchases on a single friendly vendor, concept called "rotazione fornitori"). The second step(which until now was the average since most gov entities had a hard ceiling for direct purchase at 1k€ or something) was a tender which had a lot of red tape depending on the cash. There are two types, Italian tender("gara italiana") up to 150k€ and European tender("gara europea") for anything more. Italian has less rules and restrictions, European has rules directly spelled out by the European Commission and multiple entities will hover around like loving vultures, watching over you and if you even put a comma in the wrong spot you can get hosed raw. Tenders are usually done with cooperation with a gov controlled services provider called Consip("Concessionaria Servizi Informativi Pubblici") which keeps an incredibly poo poo portal to handle all the steps to execute a tender. The new rules (which have been ratified on a 1st April publication on the Gazzetta Ufficiale but won't take effect until the 23st of July) makes anything under 500k€ available to purchase under the direct purchase rules. So you can point a BIG spend to a friend of yours with minimal oversight. I admit that anything that had to be done as euro tender was a loving bloodbath, taking months just to do the paperwork to call the vendors, but the changes will create a Wild West where spending won't have the limiting factors of requiring a shitload of red tape(people were disincentivized from asking frivolous nonsense since the purchasing office would take a shitload of time to do the paperwork) and heavy oversight(tenders leave a lot of paper trail to check for non compliance). The reactions were sensible but as usual provided by idiots. The ANAC ("Agenzia Nazionale Anti Corruzione"), which oversees the rules for spending to avoid organized crime infiltration in government, telling "it's going to be a fun ride for friends of the spending managers" is accurate but they did in a way that pissed a lot of people, implicitly telling everyone is corrupt. ANAC had to backpedal with multiple Mayors telling them to get hosed, Lega rode the wave to make ANAC look like clowns and making them look the sensible guys. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 08:51
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Bloody hell that sounds like an incoming clusterfuck to beat all clusterfucks.
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Apr 1, 2023 09:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Bloody hell that sounds like an incoming clusterfuck to beat all clusterfucks. We expect it to be repelled by EU and are now expediting every tender to be done before end of June so we don't fall under the new rules.
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Apr 1, 2023 09:39
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SlowBloke posted:We expect it to be repelled by EU and are now expediting every tender to be done before end of June so we don't fall under the new rules. Oh, I'm sure, that's the only sensible response. I've studied late 19th/early 20th century government contracting (albeit not in Italy, no parlo Italiano) for my work and reading your description of events made my eye twitch. Like there's ways to mitigate regulation without just opening the floodgates of allocating contracts to your sketchy cousin who knows a guy.
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Apr 1, 2023 09:44
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Oh, I'm sure, that's the only sensible response. I've studied late 19th/early 20th century government contracting (albeit not in Italy, no parlo Italiano) for my work and reading your description of events made my eye twitch. Like there's ways to mitigate regulation without just opening the floodgates of allocating contracts to your sketchy cousin who knows a guy. If you feel like clawing your eyes out, here are the eu tender rules https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/public-tendering-rules/index_en.htm
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Apr 1, 2023 09:56
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SlowBloke posted:multiple entities will hover around like loving vultures, watching over you and if you even put a comma in the wrong spot you can get hosed raw. 
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Apr 1, 2023 10:01
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SlowBloke posted:If you feel like clawing your eyes out, here are the eu tender rules https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/public-contracts/public-tendering-rules/index_en.htm I assume any developed country would want to regulate public spending in some way so is this a lot more complicated and dumb than what we generally see in developed economies?
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Apr 1, 2023 10:05
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Owling Howl posted:I assume any developed country would want to regulate public spending in some way so is this a lot more complicated and dumb than what we generally see in developed economies? That article is a summary with the links to the full set of laws around each topic. The body of laws around it are far more convoluted, even on trivial stuff like TED(https://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do) tender publishing. Edit: just to clear some fog, every European government has their own GSA equivalent, in Italy's case it's under the CONSIP umbrella. A country level tender is state tender complexity level while the average federal contract has equivalent complexity to an European tender. Plus eidas signature checking on docs, which is always a mess. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 10:10
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Seconding everything SlowBloke said, and it's as bad as it looks. There's also the PNRR situation to discuss if you're interested: basically we can't access PNRR funding, more or less because we cannot comply (due to a lack of planning, mostly) with reform requirements. Char fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Apr 3, 2023 |
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Apr 3, 2023 11:45
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Char posted:Seconding everything SlowBloke said, and it's as bad as it looks. It's far worse actually, even on approved, financed and active projects there is little to no movement. Missione 2, Componente 2, Investimento 4.3 , the PNRR project for installing public charge point is failing thanks to every region, county and town missing to even request access to the funds due to their engineering offices not being able to fulfill even a trivial "hook up current lines to parking space" project task. It's not just the government failing but every player on the board.
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Apr 3, 2023 16:47
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SlowBloke posted:It's far worse actually, even on approved, financed and active projects there is little to no movement. Missione 2, Componente 2, Investimento 4.3 , the PNRR project for installing public charge point is failing thanks to every region, county and town missing to even request access to the funds due to their engineering offices not being able to fulfill even a trivial "hook up current lines to parking space" project task. It's not just the government failing but every player on the board. Yeah I'm oversimplifying for the sake of discussion, but the government (and, to be honest, the previous government as well), among all the institutions involved, had the best tools to handle the situation.
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Apr 3, 2023 18:20
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