The US will lose WW3

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

I love how Forums brings about this urge to infodump about cool niche stuff.

Is there some way to bookmark or compile these great posts or are we just doomed to emptyquote with keywords so we can find them in our own history later?

Please direct me elsewhere if there's a better place to ask.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2023 04:33

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 00:42

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Slavvy posted:

The gently caress is a semi submersible

"Making submarines that can withstand high pressure is expensive. But the military wants them. What can we do?"
"What if it didn't have to withstand high pressure?"
"That's the requirement for a submersible."
"Then we create a new category."

# ¿ Sep 2, 2023 10:29

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Clever Moniker posted:

Why is he cosplaying as Leon Kennedy?

He seems interesting.

https://twitter.com/2112Power/status/1598440563501846528?t=XwnKUYyWBrDfK2zCUgtdjw&s=19

https://twitter.com/2112Power/status/1556633157834776585?t=sSxaVhNd-Mo6JjKPhp4CUQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/2112Power/status/1528172286607470594?t=L9mnmdka3U5G0oQPKpvi4Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/2112Power/status/1380948100223655937?t=pZOtnDEupENkpCirXWWfEw&s=19

# ¿ Sep 7, 2023 17:22

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

PoontifexMacksimus posted:

sounds like the Navy needs to practice seamen retention, I heard it's a good way to grow more powerful

The US won't be able to protect its precious fluids

# ¿ Sep 8, 2023 09:33

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1702858454870941740?t=ybcHJeKLh49OniUGpbpwtg&s=19

quote:

The US Army War College published a summary of what will apparently be multiple detailed papers on the "lessons from Ukraine".

I have highlighted below two striking passages.

TLDR: The US is not remotely capable of "large-scale combat operations".

https://t.co/AHsfJr4veI

Votskomit has issued a correction as of 10:17 on Sep 16, 2023

# ¿ Sep 16, 2023 10:00

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

A pretty long article with some interesting tidbits.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-navy-spent-billions-littoral-combat-ship

Joaquin Sapien posted:

Our examination revealed new details on why the LCS never delivered on its promises. Top Navy leaders repeatedly dismissed or ignored warnings about the ships’ flaws. One Navy secretary and his allies in Congress fought to build more of the ships even as they broke down at sea and their weapons systems failed. Staunch advocates in the Navy circumvented checks meant to ensure that ships that cost billions can do what they are supposed to do.

Contractors who stood to profit spent millions lobbying Congress, whose members, in turn, fought to build more ships in their home districts than the Navy wanted. Scores of frustrated sailors recall spending more time fixing the ships than sailing them.

Our findings echo the conclusions of a half-century of internal and external critiques of America’s process for building new weapons systems. The saga of the LCS is a vivid illustration of how Congress, the Pentagon and defense contractors can work in concert — and often against the good of the taxpayers and America’s security — to spawn what President Dwight D. Eisenhower described in his farewell address as the “military industrial complex.”

Joaquin Sapien posted:

He was an unlikely candidate to begin a revolution in shipbuilding. With an undergraduate degree from Evangel College, a small Christian school in Missouri, and an MBA from the University of Arkansas, he hardly fit the mold of a prototypical chief of naval operations who was groomed for leadership from his earliest days at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland.

A self-professed “radical,” at times irreverent and impassioned, he wanted to run the Navy like a business, streamlining training, rooting out misspent dollars, retaining sailors who shined and getting rid of those who did not.

He believed the Navy needed a more cost-effective and technologically advanced fleet. Many of the Navy’s ships had been built during the Cold War. Massive carriers, destroyers, battleships and cruisers were facing retirement, in part because updating them with modern technology was prohibitively expensive, Clark said.

In keeping with his business background, Clark wanted as few people on the new ships as possible. “What I really want is an unmanned ship that’s got R2-D2 in it,” he said, recalling his thinking at the time.

quote:

In response to such concerns, the Navy lowered the price by pitting the two teams of contractors against each other in a bidding war. Austal and Lockheed Martin turned in two different ship designs with similar price tags. Navy leaders dithered over which to select.

quote:

Contrary to what Clark observed in Denmark, the various weapons systems would not be easy to swap out. The Navy hadn’t factored in the weeks it could take for all the contractors, sailors and others who were needed to fly in from around the world to help outfit the vessels for different missions.

# ¿ Sep 17, 2023 13:42

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Facehammer posted:

And to show he means it, he'll donate some of those F-35s to Ukraine.

14 of them, to be precise.

Didn't this happen with tanks from Germany?

# ¿ Sep 30, 2023 15:44

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

captainbananas posted:

Nuke propulsion is loving insane poo poo and if the US hadn't had an autistic visionary establish an intergenerational choke-hold on its naval nuclear force I think it's safe to bet there'd be dozens of little elephant's feet scattered across the floors of the atlantic and pacific by now. small mercies

Please explain this part? Sounds interesting

# ¿ Oct 5, 2023 05:52

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

captainbananas posted:

Hyman Rickover

That's a rad story.

captainbananas posted:

So fast forward to today and forty years later you have the uss connecticut running around in the south china sea and the investigation found among lots of other poo poo that no one was being held accountable for making navigation mistakes. the nuclear disasters are likely now just a matter of time

Hahaha perfect ending to bring it back to the thread title.

Lostconfused posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

Having never heard anything about this, I instantly believe the allegations.

captainbananas posted:

You start out in 1823 by saying, "Manifest Destiny, Manifest Destiny, Manifest Destiny". By 1968, you can't say "Manifest Destiny"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like Western Bloc, first world nations and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about IMF-induced fiscal restructuring, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] every other country get hurt worse than the US. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the empire problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to ensure that the return to capital in the US exceeds that of anyone in the semi-periphery let alone the periphery", is much more abstract than even the IMF, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Manifest Destiny". So, any way you look at it, empire is coming on the back-burner.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2023 20:31

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Lostconfused posted:

Also the question is how to go to war, not how to win a war.

German Reich went to war with the Soviet Union even though it was getting steel from them, it can be done.

Ominous foreshadowing.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2023 17:57

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

dead gay comedy forums posted:

Full Total Maoism Overdrive

# ¿ Oct 13, 2023 12:52

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

I don't get it. If the USA is successfully forcing the EU to serve as it's shield and cannon fodder, isn't that an indication that the USA is effectively shielding itself so that it doesn't lose or even send troops to these ongoing conflicts?

# ¿ Oct 14, 2023 17:24

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/why-america-is-out-of-ammunition

Matt Stoller posted:

Why America Is Out of Ammunition
Why can't the Pentagon get weapons firms to ramp up production? A new report shows the military doesn't track who owns its contractors, and has just two people looking at mergers in the defense base.
...

But according to a new scorching government report released this week, that’s mostly just talk. The Pentagon doesn’t bother tracking the guts of defense contracting, which is who owns the mighty firms that build weaponry.

...

Surges due to wars aren’t new, and there’s always some time lag between the build-up and the delivery. But today, the lengths of time are weirdly long. For instance, the Army is awarding contracts to RTX and Lockheed Martin to build new Stinger missiles, which makes sense. But the process will take.. five years. Why? What is new is Wall Street’s role in weaponry. We used to have slack, and productive capacity, but then came private equity and mergers. And now we don’t. The government can’t actually solicit bids from multiple players for most major weapons systems, because there’s just one or two possible bidders. So that means there’s little incentive for firms to expand output, even if there’s more spending. Why not just raise price?

...

Four hundred mergers every year is a lot, but of course, that’s just an estimate. Why don’t we know how many acquisitions happen in the defense base? As it turns out, it’s an estimate because the Pentagon isn’t tracking defense mergers anymore. To put it in boring GAO-speak, Pentagon “officials could not say with certainty how many defense-related M&A now occur annually because they no longer track or maintain data on all M&A in the defense industrial base.” So the DOD is almost totally blind to the corporate owners of contractors and subcontractors, which might be one reason that, say, Chinese alloys are being discovered in sensitive weapons systems like the state of the art F-35.

...

The Pentagon’s head-in-the-sand approach is why Lockheed now has a chokehold on nuclear missile modernization, since it bought the key supplier of rocket engines and denies those engines to rivals bidding for the contract to upgrade what is known as the nuclear triad.

...

More interesting explanations and links to more stories inside.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2023 19:52

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Frosted Flake posted:

Was something wrong with Brimstone?

Honestly, procurement has gotten so loving screwy over the past year that I can barely keep track of projects that are relevant to my work.

You would think having one truck and two guns would solve the problems of these four projects but that is not how these things work right now.

If you remember, the ADATS, M109, M577 and M113 all shared automotive components. Those were the loving days.

It sounds like communists could get the military on their side during the revolution by promising military more control over procurement and equipment specifications.

# ¿ Oct 25, 2023 17:36

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Tempora Mutantur posted:

"see it's ok that we attacked them because they're iran's proxies. it's not as though we're attacking iran itself, despite admitting knowing they are iranian proxies. we call these 'i am not touching you' defensive strikes."

I once explained to someone that America is The Great Satan by using examples like Vietnam, Laos, DPRK and what the USA did there.

They responded by saying "oh but those were proxy wars."

As if that means it's okay you can just do what you want there, they're not real countries with real people. It's just proxy.

Proxy seems to act as a thought terminating cliché.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2023 16:02

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

stephenthinkpad posted:

Yes but I think there is a slowly spreading effect of the stupidity in the ruling elites. Like how you go from the genuine evil of the Kissinger to the ignorance and incompetence of the Tony Blinken.

I am not sure if its spreading in the Pentagon. It's definitely spreading in the foreign affair area.

I keep seeing people say this, but it kinda feels like the leftie version of "good times create weak men, weak men create bad times" cliché.

Are the ruling class people really dumber than before? Or were they always like this and we're just seeing it clearly now that we see them talk unscripted and unfiltered more than ever before?

# ¿ Oct 27, 2023 19:44

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i mean liberalism went from keynes to krugman and conservativism went from buckley to "the qanon shaman"

I don't think Tim Buckley was that influential amongst conservatives, but I see what you mean.

But that also seems kinda besides what I'm talking about here. There are many possibilities
- the ruling class followed the advice of experts then and now, but the experts are dumber now for some reason unrelated to ruling class dumbness.
- the ruling class determines who is known as an expert, and they're dumber now so they push dumber experts to the top.
- the ruling class were always dumb, the experts used to be able to have more control. Now the ruling class has more power to suppress competency.

Sorry for the weird aside, but I keep seeing people say this and it just strikes me as an unscientific trueism that no one seems to question.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2023 20:15

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Danann posted:

The gist of it is that the base, both the means of production and the material relations between the classes, was sold off in order to wage class warfare against the metropolitan working class since it seemed very safe to do so in light of the USSR's collapse and the PRC's impending and inevitable color revolution. Under the End of History, neoliberal political economic thought reproduced and expanded itself to its most logical endpoints throughout the superstructure (government, arts, business, etc.), even as material shortages such as bullet shortages during the War on Terror and PPE during the initial COVID waves manifested itself. It never seemed likely that conventional warfare, the ultimate test of state and industrial capability, was ever likely, and the neoliberal superstructure was able to defeat alternatives to it consistently.

The Ukraine-Russia war erupted when the US was so enmeshed in neoliberal thought that GDP from spreadsheet touching is equivalent, superior even, to GDP generated by an artillery shell factory. Hence, the constant denigration of the gas station with nukes only having GDP equal to some small European country.

So now that the dominoes have fallen, the US can only perceive and conceive neoliberal solutions to their problems and only the greatest of catastrophes will change it because of the neoliberal stranglehold on the superstructure.

Thank you. This is a good post and matches my limited understanding. I like this explanation way more than "failsons are in charge now."

# ¿ Oct 27, 2023 20:57

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

fits my needs posted:

so this is what ff is into huh

Given FFs poetry earlier, I imagine him like General Patton but in a Mountie uniform.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2023 20:53

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Orange Devil posted:

Yet every cold-war-gone-hot game released always assumes both a Soviet first strike (because they are evil and we are good)

Most of the stories I've seen the USA rationally and honorably launch a first strike because they were deceived into thinking it was needed, but then stop at the last second because a brave patriot named ~~Vasily Aleksandrovich Arkhipov~~ Jack Hawkbond lifts the deception.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2023 16:06

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Best Friends posted:

huh! good to know. being a sort-of military seems generally counterproductive to the core missions of law enforcement and rescue.

I'm no lawyer but I feel like law enforcement of citizens on domestic soil vs law enforcement of vessels in your oceans is a fundamentally different type of dynamic. I could see a military or non military setup being viable here.

What's your concern with this setup?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2023 08:33

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

atelier morgan posted:

i used to have a blog post handy that provided some general details from a commie perspective but i lost the link and google might as well not exist any more

# ¿ Nov 4, 2023 19:50

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Not So Fast posted:

There's no way they have an intended target for most of these rounds, right? It's all just random firing while pretending it's precision targeting.

I always wondered how widespread this practice is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uXLzZyucI

# ¿ Nov 6, 2023 15:13

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Found an article from 2017

https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/pentagon-study-declares-american-empire-is-collapsing

Some quotes

Nafeez Ahmed posted:

Pentagon study declares American empire is ‘collapsing’
Report demands massive expansion of military-industrial complex to maintain global ‘access to resources’

The solution proposed to protect US power in this new “post-primacy” environment is, however, more of the same: more surveillance, more propaganda (“strategic manipulation of perceptions”) and more military expansionism.
...

Danger comes not just from great power rivals like Russia and China, both portrayed as rapidly growing threats to American interests, but also from the increasing risk of “Arab Spring”-style events. These will erupt not just in the Middle East, but all over the world, potentially undermining trust in incumbent governments for the foreseeable future.

...

The report, based on a year-long intensive research process involving consultation with key agencies across the Department of Defense and US Army, calls for the US government to invest in more surveillance, better propaganda through “strategic manipulation” of public opinion, and a “wider and more flexible” US military.

...
—major rivals like Russia and China, as well as smaller players like Iran and North Korea.

The document is particularly candid in setting out why the US sees these countries as threats—not so much because of tangible military or security issues, but mainly because their pursuit of their own legitimate national interests is, in itself, seen as undermining American dominance.
...
Russia and China are described as “revisionist forces” who benefit from the US-dominated international order, but who dare to “seek a new distribution of power and authority commensurate with their emergence as legitimate rivals to U.S. dominance.” Russia and China, the analysts say, “are engaged in a deliberate program to demonstrate the limits of U.S. authority, will, reach, influence, and impact.”
...
“Wide uncontrolled access to technology that most now take for granted is rapidly undermining prior advantages of discrete, secret, or covert intentions, actions, or operations… In the end, senior defense leaders should assume that all defense-related activity from minor tactical movements to major military operations would occur completely in the open from this point forward.”

This information revolution, in turn, is leading to the “generalized disintegration of traditional authority structures… fueled, and/or accelerated by hyperconnectivity and the obvious decay and potential failure of the post-Cold War status quo.”

...

The US thus must try to minimize any “purposeful, malevolent, or incidental interruption of access to the commons, as well as critical regions, resources, and markets.”

...

In this context, the study’s conclusions are less a reflection of the actual state of the world, than of the way the Pentagon sees itself and the world. Indeed, most telling of all is the document’s utter inability to recognize the role of the Pentagon itself in systematically pursuing a wide range of policies over the last several decades which have contributed directly to the very instability it now wants to defend against.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2023 09:08

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

dead gay comedy forums posted:

what

AlexJonesHardcoreTrotskyites.mp4

# ¿ Nov 8, 2023 18:18

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

atelier morgan posted:

it is, for example israel has a bunch of bespoke garbage it made specifically so they didn't have to worry about people throwing rocks at them which are currently being exploded by people with actual weapons

You're telling me kids throwing rocks at IDF legitimately weakened the Israeli military?

Incredible.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2023 12:46

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

Kids used to join the military so they could complete feats of physical strength, but now they can just watch tik toks of people exercising instead.

No one wants to die anymore.

# ¿ Nov 11, 2023 21:08

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Whitenoise Poster posted:

I wish the US would hurry up and lose ww3 already. I'm sick of it still being there.

Germany lost two world wars and is still around. Don't hold your breath.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2023 05:39

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Some braai posting.

https://twitter.com/probablyaisha/status/1723789408111915165?s=20

https://twitter.com/FathiMeer/status/1723807098083876928?s=20

https://twitter.com/Rushtush/status/1723965886631932331?s=20

https://twitter.com/Sage_Of_Absurd/status/1723936991631306828?s=20

https://twitter.com/Aashiek/status/1724078261267751315?s=20

https://twitter.com/muhammad_c/status/1723979170827387244?s=20

# ¿ Nov 15, 2023 08:49

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

palindrome posted:

It's been what, 5 pages since superiority by arthur c. clarke in 1951 has been posted? I love this short story and I read it every time.

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Arthur%20C%20Clarke%20-%20Superiority.pdf

Wow that was funnier than I expected.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2023 10:11

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Trabisnikof posted:

NGA is the lamest and most embarrassing of the "intelligence community" mainly responsible for helping to crash US submarines, funding Google Earth, probably funding Pokemon Go, and harassing some random household in South Africa:

To be fair they live in Pretoria, they probably deserve a little bit of harassment.

# ¿ Nov 22, 2023 20:55

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Danann posted:

Georgia 2008 is what I would use as the root for both NATO's and Russia's strategies leading up to Ukraine-Russia tbh.

Why did Russia annex Georgia? I don't actually know the history.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2023 03:26

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

i say swears online posted:

syq?

I'm not entirely sure what this means. Are you trying to make fun of me for asking for more info?

I don't trust Wikipedia's summaries and I don't know the actual history of what happened there.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2023 03:48

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

i say swears online posted:

i thought it was a troll post because russia only annexed georgia in the context of the ussr a century ago, not recently

Oh my bad. Guess I fell for the liberal propaganda again.

Thanks everyone for the additional context it's great!

# ¿ Nov 27, 2023 04:40

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Anyone here know if there were prior times in history that a nation outsourced and gutted its military production to the extent that the USA is doing now?

Is this like a normal thing that empires do sometimes as they come to an end, or is this a somewhat unique way to go out?

# ¿ Dec 1, 2023 21:32

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Doesn't a single plane cost $80m? Why repair it for $140m when you can just order a new one that'll arrive in 2041?

# ¿ Dec 2, 2023 21:39

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

Tankbuster posted:

mughals famously let their artillery decay away into nothingness and hired portuguese and italians as artillery officers.

sullat posted:

The Byzantine nobility hated paying taxes and setting aside land to support the army so they eventually said, "screw it, we'll just rely on mercenaries going forward" and, uh, it did not go well.

RaySmuckles posted:

not unheard of

one of my favorite stories is the battle of mohacs in Hungary. Hungarian nobles elected their kings. they wanted to pay less for a standing army against the ottomans so they elected a guy who drastically shrank their forces. the ottomans rolled in and killed the king and obliterated their tiny force and conquered huge swathes of territory. rich people do incredibly stupid poo poo to save a couple bucks.

in terms of imperial scale though I don�t have a great example

Frosted Flake posted:

As others have said, there's an internal tension within states where the same ruling class that benefits most from expansion doesn't like to pay the cost of maintenance, when the borders are stable. This extended way beyond the Romans and the federated tribes, though that's the best known example. The Byzantines contracted European knights to much of their fighting at various times, which led to the escapades of the Catalan Company, the Persian Empire used Greek mercenaries extensively, pretty much any settled people the bordered pastoral/nomadic people employed them, and of course the Carthaginian were almost destroyed by their own mercenaries.

I would say differences here is that, sort of like deindustrialization for spreadsheet capitalism, they're not cutting costs of the military, they are just spending money in ways that serves no purpose other than enriching the ruling class. They would be better off paying mercenaries because they would get actual military forces out of the deal. This is something else.

There's not really historical precedent on the policy side either, because in pre-industrial or industrial societies, military cuts would accompany a swords into ploughshares type thing as the ruling class would still benefit from state spending. So, soldiers into colonists, shipyards turned over to merchant shipping, that sort of thing. That's not really happening here either.

Real hurthling! posted:

the ancient MIC was hiring mercenaries that got paid by their generals from war booty so they constantly needed to be attacking stuff, which included the empires hiring them when there was nothing left to attack

Real hurthling! posted:

it owns that the carthaginian merc war was started because a merc warlord leader named i poo poo you not "spendius" was unhappy with a payment deal.

Thanks, everyone. These are great. Really makes me hopeful for the future. :keke:

# ¿ Dec 4, 2023 09:16

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

crepeface posted:

i think i played xcom2 before i was really politically aware and i posted awhile ago that i vaguely remember not liking the vibe and gradenko_2000 reminded me this was the finale:

StarCraft 1 involves a revolution against the confederacy but then the new boss is as bad as the old boss.
StarCraft 2 involves you building a revolution and the culmination of that work is... Basically the same as XCOM 2. The independent news media just chooses for some reason to replace the pro empire folks with the pro revolutionary folks and it's all good.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2023 06:40

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

DancingShade posted:

In the future we'll also all be magically fit and attractive with zero physical effort despite gorging ourselves on delicious treats the robot makes for us out of thin air.

The crew are often shown doing exercises, and they speak about improving themselves on a mental, physical, and philosophical level. Mostly in TNG iirc.

Unfortunately this gets forgotten by most writers most of the time, and the zeitgeist of liberalism suffuses itself into media that was supposed to be better.

err posted:

Reinhard von Lohengramm was a benevolent military leader

Too bad he was stabbed in the back by those intergalactic bankers with the strange religion.

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/WarMurals/status/1731740322105892994

This is the real litmus test we need to keep an eye on. When America can no longer Burger, it will signal the true end of the empire.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 04:48

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 00:42

Votskomit: Jun 26, 2013

JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:

Unrelated to this thread, but maybe some of you can help:

I read a story/journal article years ago about postwar japan, and a culture of pacification/childishness that was used to deal with/accept responsibility for imperial japan and its nuclear end. i don't remember much else about it, which country had that idea, etc.

does this ring a bell to anyone? A book/article/anything would be helpful

That sounds like Paranoia Agent, but as an article.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2023 20:10

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