Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

“The list of deleted items includes something called a "Cathodic Protection System," which is designed to prevent electrolysis.” they cut it to save money. that would have to have had to occurred over significant opposition.

bobby jindal volcano monitoring air quotes dot mp4

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Can't wait for this stupid as gently caress war to go nuclear and get me atomized because I live near a nuclear sub base hell yeah

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

How are thousands upon thousands of Russians supposed to have been killed already concurrently with all of them defecting and/or abandoning their vehicles? Wouldn't the Ukrainian MoD figure be something like a tenth of the combat troops committed on the Russian side being KIA already?

I mean it's kind of one or the other for an army that is on the attack on every front, either your casualty rates are really high because you have high morale and are pressing attacks hard or they're low because you dgaf, your attacks are stalling, and you are constantly losing material. But both? Is Ukraine doing massive counterattacks and pursuit actions I'm not hearing about?

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1499449376430858245?s=20&t=ozUz5eZoetvW_lfxZpda2A

I would state this slightly differently as "lmao paratroopers"

Vertical envelopment: not even once

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

i say swears online posted:

it works so well in movies

In war it is critically important to preserve ones own men and material, keep a secure line between one's combat forces and supply train, and at all costs avoid encirclement and the loss of routes of retreat else you will be destroyed in detail should any battle result in failure

So we can Win Fast by doing the opposite of all those things and

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Zeppelin Insanity posted:

Eh, securing Gostomel in the first few hours of the war and holding it until now was very impressive and useful.

AFAICT that's not what happened, though. The paratroopers did their flashy air drop and were then promptly shoved off the airport in short order on the 24th. The next day, advancing Russian ground forces retook the airport when they broke through at Ivankiv and then consolidated their position with VDV reinforcements coming via mass helicopter lift.

Which just raises the question of what was the the purpose of the airborne mission in the first place really

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Retromancer posted:

The PDW project is the classic example of a MIC boondoggle that spends billions to make poo poo that doesn't work as well as the M4 carbine that's been around since the 80s based on a weapon platform from the 60s.

Um excuse me but what if a rear echelon vehicle crew needs to fight armored Jaffa warriors, 5.56 ballistics are insufficient to defeat Goa'uld composite armor and furthermore :words:

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Justin Tyme posted:

Didn't stop the 101st from being stripped of their jump status, and the Army even disbanded all the LRS companies recently so it's not like they're adverse to getting rid of "elite" heritage units.

Paratroopers: We need first pick of recruits, only the best can deal with jumping out of an airplane and we'll leave other formations with the dregs :hist101:
Also paratroopers: You can't get rid of paratroopers, they're the elite of light infantry due to the morale and combat ability-boosting effects of jumping out of airplanes :qq:

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003


The video you posted is from the 24th; and also, I don't think they were wiped out, just pushed back into the surrounding area, and there were some Ukr forces videos posting them dancing at the airport afterward so I'm inclined to believe that counterattack did land even if it was only successful for a few hours. The VDV may very well have mostly survived the 24th, regrouped in the area and linked up with the advancing ground forces who were then reinforced by helicopter lift. We probably won't find out the real detailed course of events until the history books are written.

Again though, just raises the question of why bother with paratroopers. They had a ground advance force take the airport literally the next day.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Goast posted:

then why do all the marines attached to the sgc use m4s

"colonel oneill, sg3 got owned by jaffa again"

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The impression I've always had is that it was a combination of industrial weaponry that really made progress on the western front impossible, rather than Europeans not understanding how powerful machineguns were.

I think they realized how powerful machineguns and heavy artillery were but did not realize the second order implications of the firepower being mechanized but not the maneuver.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

ALIS is the stupidest loving concept ever, too.

quote:

ALIS is the vast information-gathering system that tracks F-35 data in-flight, relaying to maintainers on the ground the performance of various systems in near-real time. It’s meant to predict part failures and otherwise keep maintainers abreast of the health of each individual F-35. By amassing these data centrally for the worldwide F-35 fleet, prime contractor Lockheed Martin expected to better manage spare parts production, detect trends in performance glitches and the longevity of parts, and determine optimum schedules for servicing various elements of the F-35 engine and airframe. However, the system was afflicted by false alarms—leading to unnecessary maintenance actions—laborious data entry requirements and clumsy interfaces. The system also took long to boot up and be updated, and tablets used by maintainers were perpetually behind the commercial state of the art.

lol the entire reason this system exists is to that lockmart can try to apply machine learning to the problem of "how much can i cost-cut and hollow out the support staff, maintenance schedule, and parts production on this dogshit aircraft without them falling out of the loving sky because I doubled the service interval on the turbine blades to make an extra million dollars in 2025"

quote:

ODIN differs from ALIS in being a JPO-led effort “leveraging government and industry partners such as Kessel Run [a USAF software development unit], the 309th Software Engineering Group [at Hill AFB, Utah], Naval Information Warfare Center, Lockheed Martin, and Pratt & Whitney,” F-35 Program Executive Officer Air Force Lt. Gen. Eric Fick said in the JPO statement. ODIN will “leverage the agile software development and delivery practices piloted by Kessel Run and investments by Lockheed Martin” to achieve a high aircraft mission readiness rate and meet operational requirements, he said.

101st computer touching regiment

quote:

“Poor data quality is the top risk to the performance of the new and next generation system,” the JPO said. “That is why the F-35 JPO has prioritized building a new integrated data environment first, using commercial best practice for data management, well-defined and simplified systems of record, and reliable data quality metrics and tracking.” ODIN will be a “cloud-native system that incorporates a new integrated data environment and a new suite of user-centered applications.”

FYI: taking a stupid idea and putting it on the cloud does not make it less stupid.

Next version will probably put all this poo poo on the block chain

quote:

Switching the enterprise to the new system, the program office asserted, will enable “real-time monitoring of system performance and automated collection of performance information, and seamless management of parts, technical orders, and program performance data.”

Narrator: it didn't

quote:

The Government Accountability Office published a number of reports faulting ALIS for adding unnecessary man-hours and complexity to the F-35 enterprise, saying in a November, 2019 report that USAF maintainers in just one unit reported “more than 45,000 hours per year performing additional tasks and manual workarounds because ALIS was not functioning” the way it was supposed to.

Here's how you know you are hosed: someone refers to a fighter jet as an "enterprise." You do not need real-time analytics to be emitted by a fighter jet. This is not a loving warehouse robot you are trying to optimize to wring out the last few cents from the parts and labor budget. It is not an app-based serf you are trying to steal wages from. You are not going to do anything with that data that is going to be worth the cost and risk of collecting it unless "you" are a Lockheed Martin executive with a profit-based bonus structure and literally no accountability for the loving thing actually working at all.

quote:

In early versions, ALIS also proved vulnerable to hacking and data theft, another reason for the overhaul of the system, to meet new cyber security needs.

Lord has said in recent press conferences that driving down F-35 hourly operating costs is her highest priority on the program. The F-35 enterprise—which includes the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, and more than a dozen foreign partners or customers—is aiming toward an operating cost of $25,000 per flight hour by 2025. The current cost is about $35,000 per flight hour.

And you know what we needed to improve security and lower costs? A bunch of cloud vendors and more buzzwords. Pay me.

Don't worry though

quote:

Lockheed Martin has pitched a performance-based logistics deal to the Pentagon the company says is the only way the $25,000 per flight hour goal can be met. The unofficial proposal would involve more than a billion dollars of investment from Lockheed in more efficient practices and hardware that would be paid back by the government at a later date. Lord said the Pentagon is reviewing the proposal.

Listen you just need to give us a billion dollars and we promise we'll turn off the Outlook rule that auto-responds to emails from the program office with goatse

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

It’s not emitting while in the air just to provide that marketing data though, right?

Yeah I'm sure LockMart wouldn't like, have designed the stealth fighter to emit while it's flying just to pick up some additional data points on the seat-belt tension level in flight that they could use... to... cut their own costs...

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1504371964277841920?s=20&t=pygUWfww0sy8KJOSLyHEhg

:thunk:

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Cao Ni Ma posted:

Whooops time to spend another trillion dollar developing a jet that can actually evade chinese radars I guess

No good, China already built an air-to-air missile that homes in on AdWords cookies

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Endman posted:

Why did the logic change from building planes that are too fast/high to shoot down to building flying bricks with 'lol u can't see me xD' paint on them?

I can explain the JSF's myopic focus on stealth in one video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA&t=89s

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

That said though the "too high" paradigm pretty much ended when U2s started getting shot down. The "too fast" paradigm ended when satellite recon became a thing.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003


Canceling this thing turned out to be a good idea although not really for the reasons the military thought. It turns out that it's just better to be able to carry a bunch of missiles and have the kinematics to try to evade missiles shot at you than just carrying a bunch of missiles and being a turkey.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Endman posted:

Pfft the Navy are idiot fools; simply replace the pilot with an expendable ape so you won't mind losing the plane

Otherwise known as a marine

[hooting and screaming while pointing at AV8-B]

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Cuttlefush posted:

Little late and not exactly on WW3, but I didn't see anyone else answer it.

Turbojets are old style, used in most of the nazijets. They just compress the air and poo poo out the exhaust. 707 and Concorde engines were turbojet.

Turbofan is basically a turbojet that has some fan(s) in it that are driven by the turbojet turbine. I think pretty much every modern jet engine is turbofan now, military or commercial. Fighter jets mostly switched to this by the 70s/80s.

Turboprop has all or most of the parts of a jet engine, but the exhaust just drives the turbine which drives the prop and doesn't really provide thrust.

It's basically just a question of bypass ratio (amount of air that goes through the turbine compressor vs around it).

Turbojet: no bypass
Turbofan: some bypass
Turboprop: all the bypass

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

The fan allows for a higher compression then?

It's actually kind of the opposite. The basic functional layout of a turbine (from front to back) is:

Compressor stages: shove the air together and make it denser than ambient by spinning compressor blades with a driveshaft
Combustor: squirt fuel in and set it on fire
Turbine stages: extract power from the fuel/air combustion to power the operation of the turbine (this is the input to the aforementioned driveshaft)
Nozzle (optional): expand the turbine exhaust like a rocket nozzle and use it for direct thrust

A turbojet only develops thrust from expanding its turbine exhaust in a nozzle after the combustor. A turbofan is using a lot of the power generated in the turbine stage to spin a big ducted fan stuck onto the front of the engine to generate thrust by shoving air backward without directing it into the compressor, as well as getting thrust directly from the gas expansion in the nozzle. A turbo prop goes even further and replaces the ducted fan with a propeller (and typically the nozzle is not generating much if any thrust in this configuration and becomes more like an exhaust pipe).

At relatively low speeds, getting most of your thrust from a fan/prop powered by the turbine is going to be a lot more efficient than getting it from the turbine exhaust itself. This gets easier as your plane speeds up (because you are shoving air into the front of the compressor by virtue of your speed relative to the air) until eventually around mach 1, you can run the combustor cycle without a powered compressor at all (just a little inlet restriction to shove the air together), which means you don't need to extract any power from the combustion to run said compressor which means you can dispense with the turbine blades as well and it's ramjet time baby

The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 23:09 on Mar 18, 2022

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Another very nerdy way to think about this is that all turbine aircraft engines are basically lazy rocket motors that get their oxidizer by scooping it in the front instead of by carrying it in a tank. At very high speeds, you literally just need a scoop shaped the right way to get the oxidizer in. At lower speeds, you aren't ingesting enough oxidizer fast enough to combust the fuel and need a compressor to cram it in there and thus you also need turbines between the combustion chamber and the nozzle to tap some of that power to drive the compressor. At lower speeds still (aka typical aircraft cruise speeds), it starts to become more efficient to get more and more of the thrust from the turbines driving a big fan or (lower speeds still) a big propeller rather than using direct thrust from combustion.

And at extremely low speeds you won't be able to get generate enough lift to get off the ground, so you will need to attach the turbine drive shaft to something that can just push against the ground directly like



yeah there you go

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Lostconfused posted:

Yeah I am just saying China is still "developing it's productive forces" as it were.

They're extremely close to having everything domestically, though. Like, a single digit number of years close.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

nothing is produced only domestically.

they are not close to having fully domestic vertically integrated industries. nobody is and it might not be possible to anymore.

I was speaking in terms of tooling to produce defense critical finished products, which they've steadily been acquiring for decades.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

I am too, that tooling is useless without the inputs for the line which come from everywhere while also having extremely limited sourcing origins because of what economies of scale has done to production of very specific inputs worldwide.

the world might try to move away from this... but it’s going by on take at least as long as it took to develop.

There's a big difference between "we can't make top tier jet fighters if the entire global supply chain system enters a state of collapse due to a total economic war scenario" and "we can't make top tier jet fighters under bau conditions"

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

a real Chinese American conflict is the entire global supply chain system enters a state of collapse due to a total economic war scenario

It feels like we're back on Great Game style conflict where competing imperial powers make a lot of noise about how evil the other one is but carefully restrict the bounds of conflict so that only proxies actually eat poo poo

If you're talking about, literally, F/A-18s going up against J20s over the strait of taiwan as your bar for a "real" conflict then yeah, sure. But also that would most likely be a prelude to a nuclear conflict and in that scenario supply chain collapse is just one of a number of exciting barriers to manufacturing jet fighters including "all the people who know how were just incinerated"

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

jet engine design is bat poo poo crazy. back as an undergrad Jesus twenty years ago now, I remember I got to read about GE using evolutionary algorithms for turbine design (we were learning how to hand calculate enthalpy changes between turbine stages at the time)

Jet engines are funny in that I can draw and explain how one works in about five minutes and there's nothing particularly complicated or hard to understand about the concepts but if you ask me to show the math on how it works I start hearing the flashback music from Kill Bill

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Shot

quote:

An ongoing legal battle over whether the military can force troops to get vaccinated against COVID-19 has left the Navy with a warship they say they can’t deploy because it is commanded by an officer they cannot fire.

COVID commander

The Feb. 28 filing alleges that the commander has already disregarded Navy regulations after he “exposed dozens of his crew to COVID-19 when he decided not to test himself after experiencing symptoms.”

A declaration filed in early February by Brandon states he visited the Navy commander aboard his ship in November and that the ship CO “could barely speak.”

After a briefing involving dozens of sailors in close quarters on the ship, the Navy commander admitted to his boss that he had a sore throat.

Brandon ordered him to get a COVID test, and the commander tested positive after telling his boss he had discussed his illness earlier with the ship’s corpsman, according to the declaration.

“By forcing the Navy to keep in place a commander of a destroyer who has lost the trust of his superior officers and the Navy at large, this Order effectively places a multi-billion-dollar guided missile destroyer out of commission,” defense attorneys wrote.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2022/03/08/destroyer-cant-deploy-because-co-wont-get-covid-vaccine-navy-says/

Chaser

quote:

The U.S. military budget doesn’t allow aviators enough flight hours and sorties to be ready for battle.

Air Force flight hours and sortie rates for fighter pilots in 2020 “fell to historic lows” amid the pandemic, Mr. Venable writes in Heritage’s 2022 Index of U.S. Military Strength, “as the average line combat mission-ready fighter pilot received less than 1.5 sorties a week and 131 hours of flying time that year.” This works out to 10.9 hours a month (note: that's 132 hrs/year) a level Mr. Venable says is on par with the proficiency Russian pilots had during the Cold War.

Chinese fighter pilots appear to be flying 150 hours a year, Mr. Venable estimates based on available data and anecdotal reports from pilots who have operated in the region. Caveats are in order—Chinese pilots haven’t been tested in a fight. But consistent hours, Mr. Venable explains, “translate directly into combat capability.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/us-fly...wan-11645117426

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

the judge for this case is also the CDC can’t make cruise ships follow the covid rules they really wanted to follow guy.

this will be overturned. lol at the lawyer too, crazy assed young earth creationist.

scotus not quiiiite crazy enough to let "yeah you have the right to hijack a warship" stand but dont worry we'll get there

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Dawncloack posted:

Wait, why can't they fire him?

States rights

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Palladium posted:

MacArthur: untested yellowskins won't win in Korea either

I believe the last air to air kill made by an American pilot was in 1994 wasn't it lol

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Bar Ran Dun posted:

being at sea is comparable to prison. everything changes and it’s jarring when you get back. relationships, culture, poo poo at the store that stuff continues to change and you don’t.

Read Marooned in Realtime

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Pryor on Fire posted:

They have tried different types of steel and carbide penetrator bullets on 5.56, but at the end of the day it's a pretty tiny bullet and loses energy quickly at range. The length of the bullet is also a limiter for penetration. Bigger bullets and the higher pressures mean the .277 has almost three times the muzzle energy.

The body armor missile gap seems like BS, I am not buying it. But this round will be way more effective at shooting things like improvised suicide bomber cars that are 500 meters away and closing. That seems like the main thing the XM5 was actually designed for.

They're assuming American infantry are going to be going up against Chinese terminator robots in the next dust up, can't rely on 5.56 when your target is a big dog

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Justin Tyme posted:

this isn't true anymore, it's all T-11 all the time now

The T11 is such a wonky rear end parachute but it's necessary because when the T10 was designed nobody was wearing body armor (and gym culture wasn't making dudes 200 lbs of muscle) plummeting like a meteor

paratroopers lol

Rutibex posted:

noble fighter pilots are the myth of the medievel knight. helicopter gunship pilots are the reality of the medieval knight, bullying people who can't fight back

Also paralleling the reality of the medieval knight, helicopter gunships have an aura of invincibility but get taken the gently caress down by pretty run of the mill ground forces weapons if they're reasonably well coordinated.

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

They have been trying to get a new light tank since the 70’s, I’m a bit surprised they got it through this time.

Is it one of the existing designs that have been kicking around since the Sheridan retired, or all new?

they put a modernized abrams turret on top of this:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a37093035/british-armored-vehicle-making-soldiers-sick-problems/

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Ardennes posted:

Yeah videos exist out there, but the issue is the weight. It is way too heavy (probably due to the significant armor/large turret) for its suspension. In addition, the headroom inside isn't enough for average soldiers, so they would have to make it even heavier if they wanted troops to actually use it.

I'm sure putting applique armor and a 120mm smooth bore on top fixed this

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Ardennes posted:

Yeah it is unclear how this thing is supposed to work out. I don’t know how light tanks are suppose to work with US doctrine since these things are going to be too heavy to airdrop, too lightly armored for a peer conflict, and too much for low intensity.

(Any relatively modern ATGM can take it out, there is no way to properly armor it considering its size/weight.)

It's just a cheaper-to-operate tank that does 99% of what a tank does (blowing the poo poo out of lighter vehicles, structures, and entrenched infantry) that you can stick in all your infantry divisions instead of things like Stryker gun carriers that are clearly garbo. MBT on MBT fights are pretty rare in the grand scheme of a peer war and to be honest not even an MBT is loving the idea of getting shot up with modern ATGMs; you use your infantry to scout and screen your gun carrying vehicles and things like thermal sights and the range of a dedicated tank cannon to locate and then shoot up ATGM teams before they shoot you rather than waiting to get shot at.

Light tanks actually make a lot of sense, not so much in that they win every 1:1 fight against opposing weapons systems but because you can show up with a bunch more of them for the same logistical footprint and they are much more capable than what you'd have instead like Strykers or Bradleys for the job you're asking of them.

This one looks like it might be a turd though.

PS: air dropped armored vehicles is a loving dumb idea and paratroops in general are borderline useless

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

Glad I wasn’t the only one.

WRT to Stryker MGS: is there any particular reason why just mounting a recoilless rifle or low pressure gun was so difficult? They couldn’t have just replaced the TOW on one version of the TOW carrier with a RR and called it a day? It’s still deliver 105mm HEAT and HE which was all the MGS had to do.

Instead it had an autoloader, the gun from the M60 mounted sideways etc etc.

You start with a basically mediocre idea like, hey, we'll use the MOWAG Pirahana to make a family of light armored vehicles for the army which will of course require so much value added re-engineering to Our Needs that we might as well just build from scratch but hey why not at least the drat things work right

Then you go OUR NEEDS so hard that things weigh much, much more than planned

Then it turns you this was actually the loving Canadian army adapting the MOWAG Piranha into a modified license built copy so you do the whole thing over again for the US army to create a hyper-bloated copy of a copy called the Stryker

Then you go full pentagon wars mode because hey we also have this airdroppable light tank requirement - which, again, serves mainly the purpose of supporting a dead end wartime doctrine that is mostly good at severely injuring troops in peacetime and getting whole formations annihilated as a freebie to the enemy in wartime - and wouldn't you just know it but they just eliminated one of those formations' airdrop capabilities because it's expensive and stupid and as a result there's not enough demand to buy the dedicated air droppable light tank that was getting built so it got cancelled but what if, stay with me here, we shoved the gun and autoloader setup it was going to use on top of the Stryker. Same thing right? And it's ~partially funded~

Alright you're telling me we can't support a crewed turret because the Stryker is in fact a LAV with shoulder pads and it doesn't have a large enough hull and turret ring capacity for something like that, so no problem - we'll just turn the whole setup sideways to fit it in there

Alright now you're telling me the autoloader only holds eight rounds and there's no provision for internal ammo storage so the crew will have to go outside to the back of the vehicle and get out the extra ten rounds we put in a fannypack back there then climb up to the top of the tank to replenish the autoloader; 18 rounds combat load is enough for anyone right

Alright now I'm hearing something about how it gets so hot in the tank that it's melting the fire control computers and we didn't install air conditioning and that sounds like malingering to me, ship it

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Actually the funniest part of the Stryker MGS is that this is not a Stryker MGS at all

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Frosted Flake posted:

The linked article says the Navy was told the pipes were steel instead of PVC, which breaks down from contact with jet fuel, and the contractor apparently substituted it to cut costs.

wait i was told jet fuel cant melt steel beams

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The Oldest Man
Jul 28, 2003

Wheeee posted:

the f-14 may not be the best plane, it may not even be a very good plane, but it is the coolest plane

The Iranians got some pretty serious bang out of theirs

gradenko_2000 posted:

We didn't even get F-35 sims like we did with the F-22

Nobody wants to fly the F-35

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply