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Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Just getting caught up, LMAO that double Lancer pod was insane bullshit.

I'll sign up to be a soldier:
Dr Carlos "Dead" Danger
Middle-aged. Balding. Glasses. Purple wild-pattern armor (with a gold flame job once powered.)
Since I'm late to the party, I'll take Rookie -> PsiOp or Robot for class.

Kibayasu posted:

Is it possible/a good idea to farm these zombie missions for experience? Or do zombies not give any.
It's doable. Lost normally give a fraction of the XP of an Advent soldier. There are a few reasons not to, though.

At low levels, your accuracy isn't enough to guarantee putting down a whole swarm, so if you have any sense, you end up evacuating when you don't put a swarm within punch range down rather than rolling the dice on someone ending up in medbay (which hurts more when you have a thin roster in the early game.) Once your soldiers level up enough to handle swarms reliably, it's just tedious and you don't usually *need* a promotion at any point in time.

Another reason is fatigue: soldiers lose fatigue the more pods they come across, and although single mission Will losses appear to be capped, farming lost means that everyone comes back tired. If they started tired, they're exhausted. Single mission XP gains also appear to be capped, so once a soldier earns a promotion, keeping them on the field just means losing Will and HP.

I've done it as an experiment: I had a mid-game lost VIP mission that went really well, and I got the team back to the LZ without a wound. I camped everyone there and started farming swarms, using grenades to knock out walls that blocked my line of sight because at that point why not. As soldiers promoted or got hit, I evacced them, until it was just the two robots left. They killed 187 lost total by the time I got bored/decided to stop taking more damage.

Robots don't have a willpower score, so theoretically if you brought six of them, you could keep it up a long time, but eventually a string of missed shots mean lost getting to the squad and inflicting damage, and damage can't be healed indefinitely mid mission.

Overall, I don't recommend it.

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Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
I absolutely would have taken the time to kill that turret, since you got corpses for that mission. On my last playthrough, I literally never got a turret wreck, because all the missions where I killed one were missions I had to evac from.

Grapplejack posted:

Skirmishers are incredibly good but you have to be willing to use them. They're troops for players who play extremely aggressively, because they can yeet themselves and enemies around the map easily, not to mention their abilities that let them gently caress with turn orders.
I agree, and I think the fact that the scale in the opposite of the (conservative) direction that most players build their squad works against them.

In the early game and very late game, guaranteed damage is a big deal. When your corporals are maxing out at 75%-80% accuracy in early missions, the appeal of the Templar's ability to hit every time you need her to is obvious. Same with the Reaper's "phantom Ranger, but better" setup. Early Skirmishers don't really do anything amazing. Their ammo capacity and damage aren't that great for a unit whose early selling point is, "can shoot twice a turn." Justice isn't quite accurate enough to count on, and Wrath comes at a point where pulling yourself to an enemy is still an incredibly risky play.

IMO, they hit escape velocity at Captain, but a lot of other units you're more comfortable with by that point also get key abilities at Lieutenant/Captain, and your faction soldiers are competing with robots and Psi Operatives for the 5- and 6-slots.

That said, the more I played with them the more fun they got. Wrath your way over to an enemy. Smack them with the ripjack. Zap a mechanical unit with lash for free. Yank another enemy to you with Justice. Smack them with the ripjack too. Now both enemies get bladestorm'd on their action. That's a lot of work from one soldier (if everything connects.)

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
I was never really enamored with any of the Skirmisher "get a bonus to X per kill" abilities, because they just don't have the oomph to reliably get kills every turn like a Ranger or Sharpshooter or Templar and still have actions left over.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Xelkelvos posted:

That's true. It takes something like Hair trigger and a lot of luck just to get an extra action in general, but to do it reliably is a big pull.
It still isn't as effective in action economy as the base classes, and action economy manipulation is supposed to be the Skirmishers' whole *thing*.

If you feed a kill to a Skirmisher with hair trigger, they get +2 move and a 15% chance of an additional action.

If you feed a kill to a soldier with Serial or Reaper they get a guaranteed extra action, and the classes that can get that without cross-class skills both hit harder than the Skirmisher, so those extra shots count more.

If you feed a kill to a Ranger with Bladestorm, Implacable, and Untouchable, easily the best use of skill points in WotC they basically get a whole extra turn.

Don't get me wrong, the Skirmisher can still get some amazing synergies using soldier bonds and other things, but it requires structuring and is much more situational than other classes.

IMO, they should have just given Colonel Skirmishers an always-on version of Serial. It still wouldn't be OP: all of their high-damage abilities have cool downs or per-mission limits, and their guns have less damage and mag capacity than other classes, meaning more actions spent reloading.

Or at least, no more OP than Dominate or Banish + repeater + expanded mags + aim PCS giving Reapers a "60% chance to delete one enemy unit of your choice per mission" button.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Yeah, having a Reaper with claymores and remote start on a High Explosives sitrep is a blast. You do lose a lot of loot if you blow up the convoy though.

Chuu posted:

This is why I only did one play-through on XCom 2. It just wasn't fun for me to always fight the clock. I've heard though that the mod that starts the countdown from the time you're revealed instead of the time you land is a nice balance though, and I believe it's one of the most popular XCom2 mods.

XCom2 LW just looks unfun with the timer.
I found myself fighting the clock a lot on my first game until I got that resistance order that doesn't start the clock until you're revealed. For some reason, on my second play through on Classic, it didn't bother me as much even without the order. I think it's because you develop an understanding of enemy placement and battle rhythm that lets you know how aggressively to push during the opening.

I don't think the mod that gives you the resistance order automatically is unfair or gamebreaking: bypassing enemy patrols to preserve the clock is a tradeoff, because it greatly increases your odds of getting flanked or having multiple pods active at once when you are revealed.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

not lame! posted:

Question about latest video: Did the Templar hit that sectoid for 3 damage, but then it didn't take off any health? That shotgun shot should have killed it on top of that
Rewind the video: the sectoid had 10 HP.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Yeah, that first mission with tier 2 shotguns always feels good. Still excellent play though.

I think you're almost lucky you got this mission as early as you did, it can be a real mother bastard if the reinforcement waves include advent mechs, officers and stun lancers.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Apr 19, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Crazy Achmed posted:

Knowing even less about XCOM2 than the previous game, what could (in hindsight obviously) have been done better with a sharpshooter here?
The penalty for close range shots with the sniper rifle drops off decently quickly. My play initially would have been to move the sniper up inside the train, behind the rest of the squad, and then posted them at the hard cover by the front train door. That sacrifices height advantage, but I know from hard experience that the top of the train means either no shot or no cover.

Honestly, the sight lines in the underground maps are wonky enough that there really isn't an optimal strategy for sniper play. Sometimes you can post them at a corner that lets them hold down a long tunnel, but that wasn't the case here unless you tucked the sniper on top of the VIP room and let them take potshots at whichever troopers end up in half cover. I might have brought another specialists or a rookie just so I had another magnetic rifle to take shots.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Ouch. Get 'em next mission!

I'm more worried about what this mission does to your strategic game. Thinning the roster like that greatly increases the chances of a wound/fatigue spiral, and robots are really expensive.

On a semi-related note, I almost always fight through the first haven assault, even if it means a soldier dying or getting kidnapped by the chosen. The reason: you get at least one Faceless corpse. You need one for the autopsy, and another from the second retaliation for the mimic beacon, which is key for Ironman runs.

It might be worth switching research to experimental weapons for the frost bomb, which has similar effects.

eating only apples posted:

The Viper King appeared on my first supply raid, which was about my 3rd mission same as this campaign, so good times.
The Alien Hunters DLC has absolutely nothing good about it except maybe the character appearance options. I'd play without it.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Apr 20, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Peachfart posted:

Alien Hunters is fine, some people just don't like the rulers, even though there a ton of ways to mitigate them. He should definitely research the frost bomb asap, except I think you will also need to build a Foundry to actually make one.
The issue with Alien Hunters is that the rulers are basically unmanageable without the overpowered weapons they give you, and those weapons *completely break the game* on any mission without a Ruler, the Frost Bomb being chief among them. It's like Stasis, except it's AoE, and you can shoot at frozen targets, and your grenadier can do it twice per mission. It works on Avatars, for god's sake.

FairGame posted:

I mean...I said in my post that it's not cheating. It's my personal viewpoint. Not an uncommon sentiment, mind you, though I'm definitely in the minority and I don't begrudge someone else using them. They're just not for me.

THERE ARE DOZENS OF US! DOZENS!
I'd actually agree with you in non-Ironman games, where people tend to use them offensively. For Ironman games, I've never made it through a campaign without a mis-click, so I like having a "whoops, not that square!" button.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Grapplejack posted:

The worst one is probably surgical, which i'm sure we'll see and pass over during the campaign.
I once took a Surgical mission out of pure spite and sent two Psi Ops and a Specialist who proceeded to Dominate and Haywire up a full squad.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Advent getting clowned by a handful of lost was :discourse:, but must be slightly embarrassing for some of the folks currently laid up in medbay.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Fairgame, I'm surprised you don't like experimental heavy weapons. I usually roll one or two to see if I can get the shredder gun.

Good luck, Silent Snack. My first Spark tends to live a rough life, especially since this is a bad point in the campaign to be unable to use full cover.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Peachfart posted:

However, a unit starting an airlift breaks their concealment. This includes Reapers.
This applies to pretty much any interactive object. It's the loving worst. I lost my favorite Ranger figuring that out. I understand why they did it, to keep you from trivializing missions with Phantom rangers, but it can still be really annoying.

I just dislike the crate missions: it's really easy to get pinned down in a firefight you can't safely extract yourself from and end up having to watch Advent snatch up all the crates because you don't want to go blindly charging into the fog.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Yeah, I didn't see my character on the rookie list. Guess I'm hanging out in those Intact Structures the rest of the campaign, watching the Avenger zip back and forth :):

Great job keeping everyone alive there. The Assassin is virtually unmanageable on city maps. Being able to change height at will means it's too easy for her to get out of reach. Much easier on less vertical maps where she likely will hide behind easily grenadable cover.

I'm guessing the reason the timer stops when you're fighting a Chosen is that the mission timers can already be pretty brutal: if they didn't stop, players would end up in a situation where they have to leave half their squad behind dead or dazed, or have the whole squad lost when the timer expires, with no way of preventing it.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
During that first firefight, all I could think was, "oh god, don't forget about the turret and run into LoS, I would totally forget about the turret :ohdear:"

That activation was weird. The danger squares can be glitchy on the margins. What I *think* happened was, Sincx was the only person with eyes on the turret. When she ran around the cover, she lost sight on the turret, and her pathing then took her through the edge of a danger square. I vividly remember something similar happening with a rooftop edge: a square marked safe from a visible pod suddenly became unsafe when I moved to it and briefly lost sight of the pod.

Holy hell, Silent Snack, you're getting the full Spark experience.

BTW, fairgame, if you have an instant autopsy and an inspiration/breakthrough pop up at the same time, you can do the autopsy without losing the inspiration, at least on the PC version.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 24, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

silentsnack posted:

Say that after I miraculously survive tanking an entire mission's worth of unlucky activations, then die to fall damage caused by a burning floor after all the enemies are down.

Or if the spark is the one receiving the Snack Experience, it'll be dying due to an acid/burning Avatar teleporting into cover behind bulwark.
I just meant more the "be the only one who can't take cover, get constantly beat up, spend a lot of time getting wrenched by Shen" part. "Die because you were sent out at half health when no one else on the roster could go" optional.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
If there's one thing this game does really well, it's giving you a visceral appreciation of the difference between 90% likely, 99% likely, and 100% likely.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Crazy Achmed posted:

Yeah, come to think of it I'm pretty sure somebody else got "dodge: grazed" instead of a hit off a >90% shot at point blank that mission. It's like this game knows me, I'm awful at anything involving dice-rolling.
Dodge works completely independent of the unit shooting. Once an attacking unit lands a hit, the unit getting shot gets to roll against its "Dodge" stat. A success means the incoming damage is halved(?). A patch made it so that 100% shots bypass dodge.

In WotC, you can abuse this for your own soldiers by stacking various +Dodge buffs (PCS, armor, covert ops) until almost all incoming damage is halved. Works a treat on Rangers, but really, by the endgame when you can set that up, if you're taking incoming fire, you're doing it wrong.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Berzerkers scare me because, barring Parry or similar shenanigans, you more or less need to kill them if they're within double move range, and as you said, they have a huge pile of HP to chew through. This means that other enemies get to act unmolested, which can be detrimental to the wellbeing of your squad.

Also, this LP got me to start an Ironman campaign of my own, and TIL that Skirmishers can get lightning reflexes as one of their cross class abilities, which is pretty great.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Akratic Method posted:

The sole reason I always get Skullmining is that it makes the Skulljack give +25 to hack power
This is the reason I go for it too. Converting Advent soldiers into intel loot crates is a nice bonus. Like you said, Fairgame, it's never worth going out of your way to do, but there are a lot of situations (like reinforcement pods) where you can often pick off two out of three soldiers from an Advent pod and be able to jack the third in relative safety while someone has a 100% shot lined up in case you fail.

Those little dribs and drabs of intel can really add up.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Huh. On PC, you can cancel and re-order proving grounds projects at will.

I never bother with experimental grenades because IIRC, they all give up exploding cover in favor of adding maluses. I mostly use my grenadiers to remove cover, shred armor, and proc holo-targeting, so I actually do Muton autopsy as soon as I can fit it in.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Apr 27, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Munin posted:

Grenades trigger holo targeting? Bloody hell, how did I not know that before. That's potentially a lot of +15 aim to spread around.
They don't. I was trying to say that I treat Grenadiers as my leadoff hitters: they almost always act first, and either launch explosives to delete cover and shred armor, or shoot a priority target to shred armor and proc holo-targeting.

While debuffs can be good, they're almost all situational and dependent on enemy type (especially since burning is no longer indisputably the best by turning off melee.) I'd rather have a Muton out of cover and open to a flank shot than in cover and poisoned, because a poisoned Muton can still grenade.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Apr 27, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Yeah, specters are some hot bullshit.

This also shows off why I think Reapers are the most effective faction soldiers against the assassin: they let you get super aggressive with ferreting out her hiding spots, and if you can find her with the Reaper, the rest of the team can gun her down.

E: also, :lol: at some of those automatic photos the game takes. "Everyone crowd behind this jersey barrier!"

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 28, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Nerves of steel, man.

I understand why you clutched it out: the supply mission (and its variation landed UFO) are incredibly important injections of resources at this point in the campaign. That loss plus the problems of losing a region would have put you on a downward trajectory again, but I would have been reaching for the ejection handle when my sharpshooters caught on fire as well.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Peachfart posted:

Yeah, the Mimic Beacon has nothing on the Repeater for Maximum Bullshit.
The joy of the repeater is that, aside from one extremely specific scenario, it's too random to build a strategy around. It just shows up sometimes to delete a powerful enemy in anticlimactic fashion. Few things are funnier that seeing a Chosen or similar threat felled by repeater, fire, or fall damage.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

silentsnack posted:

So (unless I'm wrong in my analysis of how that mechanic works!) what I'm suggesting is that once you've broken squad-wide concealment, the only units at risk of a surprise attack are phantom/shadow scouts.

Gothsheep posted:

Sounds about right
Not quite: the trigger for the suicidal stand and shoot, 'stead of scurry, is a soldier being not in cover from the perspective of the activated enemy unit.

If, for example, you're in a room, setting up to breach a door, and an enemy pod walks through the other door (super awkward for everyone, fortunately two out of three died to mass overwatch) they might decide to take potshots at your flanked units instead of running to cover.

This is to keep someone with a Reaper or Phantom Ranger from using the visibility indicator to run revealed units up to the last tile before visibility and setting overwatch to get a free round of shooting (unless they can find cover while doing it, or use a sharpshooter to spring the trap.) It rarely comes up, because most Xcom players are loathe to leave their units out of cover for any reason.

Grapplejack posted:

I'm kind of surprised you didn't go for the psionics rush. it's not as good as it could be but it's still a pretty sizable cut off a long research project.
Doesn't really matter, IMO: he doesn't want to build the lab until he clears the power coil anyway.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
The OSHA nightmare of resistance camps can be funny or tragic. I had one haven assault where all the civilians in one cluster and four resistance fighters ended up taking shelter in a RV, which promptly exploded and killed half of the civilians on the map.

You and I take very different approaches to grenadiers, so I'm interested to see how Dr. Danger ends up getting (ab)used.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 22:53 on May 2, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

FairGame posted:

But, uh...don't worry too much about me having/using the frost bomb; this is a problem that will take care of itself.

Yep. Now I think it always works. I don't know; I don't use grenadiers that much.
I'm guessing this bodes poorly for Carlos and Roth having long and storied careers.

I never really liked demolition because some cover is indestructible, or at least can't be reduced below half. I think we saw this earlier with the big trees that just lose their tops and still provide cover.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
It'll be interesting to see if we get a Chosen Avenger assault or a Chosen takedown first.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Peachfart posted:

The hardest part of an ambush is the initial Advent drop. Everything else is manageable. Well, except the tediousness of every ambush being literally the same.
The game once put me on the portside city map with the containers for an ambush. Don't know how. Don't know why. Has never happened before or since in the ~25+ ambush missions I've played: the rest have all been that exact same L-shaped street.

At this point I bond a Sharpshooter and Phantom Ranger as early as possible for my covert ops buddy comedy duo and use ambushes to farm XP for them.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
I killed a lot of Reapers trying to figure out a sneaky way to do the avatar facilities. The inability to stealth the turn you are exposed makes it hard. The best way I've found so far is: 1) Use a claymore to make a hole in the wall closest to the X4 location, or scatter the pod guarding it or both. 2) Move the Reaper to the objective. 3) Get your squad in range of your planned evac volume (measure carefully). 4) Push the button, pop the evac flare, and run like hell. I'd also note that you seem to lose a bit of movement the turn you plant the X4, so take that into account.

Munin posted:

The hacking bonus is still handy.
I thought you only got that once you completed skullmining.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
RIP Sgt Grunting. Fairgame, I don't think you could have handled that any better without retreating when the assassin showed up.

I actually like Wrecking Ball because it lets you Kool-Aid man through walls to set up flank shots that wouldn't otherwise be possible and can create holes for your other soldiers to get in/out through.

Welp, I had a good campaign. See you all in two months when everyone else is a Major/Colonel! I did enjoy "Hey Carlos, I know you're blind and inches from death, but would you mind lobbing some high explosives thataway?"
"No prob. Which four foot square do you want it in?"

FairGame posted:

Reapers have a larger movement radius while in shadow. They don’t lose range from planting C4, they lose range from going from shadow to visible.
Huh. Learned something new today.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 5, 2020

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
The real brassy answer would have been to ignore the guerilla op and kick down the door to her stronghold to short circuit the Avenger defense and keep your mission count down, but that's probably a high-casualty option.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Ah right, I saw it on the map and forgot that it shows up after one of the earlier covert ops.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Nooooo, not Deadford!

Man, that was some crappy luck there. For some reason, I've always had the easiest time with the Warlock, even though he's the hardest of the three on paper. I think it's because his tendency to hide in the back of the map gives you the choice of when to engage, unlike the Assassin.

Hype for next mission, except for that absurd hill placement, what a kick in the balls.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

Grapplejack posted:

Blast padding is one of my favorite bonus perks to get, because man that +1 armor is real good

I'm also shocked you aren't picking up LR, it's a must-have on literally anyone, even if they're a sniper. It's that loving strong, and it's very rare.
I like it too, but I usually go back and get it with skill points, because I think Shredder is that important. Shredder is another one I usually pick up cross-class if I can because it's good on everyone. I don't think Fairgame will spend pool points on Grenadiers though, because he doesn't use Grenadiers, so it wouldn't be a good investment for him.

TBH, I mostly spend SP on those few clutch levels (Ranger Captain and Grenadier Major spring to mind) where both skills are incredibly good, and rounding out Specialists to be able to dual role.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011

silentsnack posted:

kill incoming enemies until they run out of reinforcements, before going out and destroying the mission objective
Wait, you can do that? I thought they were infinite, and always cheesed it the other way: running a Phantom up to LoS and annihilating it with Squadsight, SPARK bombardment, and blaster bombs.

Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
I almost felt bad for that Stun Lancer at 14:18. The Assassin summons him, alone, directly in front of 12 soldiers with gauss guns & mind swords, and peaces out. Then I remembered he's a Stun Lancer.

Andromedons do have absolutely garbage aim, but they compensate by getting right up in your grill and hitting like a ton of bricks when they do connect.

Implacable + Bladestorm is genuinely one of the best synergies in the game, and getting the good skill next level makes it insane. It allows Rangers (and Templars, if you roll it) to break the action economy over their knee.

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Dead Reckoning
Sep 13, 2011
Covering Fire + Ever Vigilant is a really good synergy, and makes double moves a lot safer, but Threat Assessment and Guardian are both such incredible skills that it just isn't worth the trade. Even on a Savant soldier who has a ton of ability points, I'd rather give a Specialist both Corporal skills, both Sergeant skills, or both Colonel skills. But I also love guaranteed damage.

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