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It's funny - but watching/listening to Steven Rinella (MeatEater show/podcast) has completely change my views on hunting and has given a great appreciation for that method of either grocery gathering/conservation efforts. I wouldn't eat the meat still - but I appreciate it for what it is compared to the aforementioned disaster of mass scale factory farming.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:58
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Bot 02 posted:
Some people just say words without any connecting actions.
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Nov 12, 2020 16:40
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FacelessVoid posted:
This is a good argument, but it doesn't like up with my own experiences. If you actually observe happy chickens, it doesn't seem like they're really suffering as much as the anti-chicken people say. I think if you're gonna come out against people keeping chickens as pets (and eating their eggs) I think you've gotta come out even stronger against owning dogs and cats (which maybe you do) since you have to feed them meat, while you can feed chickens a plant based diet. Anyway, absolutely no one should be buying eggs from the grocery store. Personally I'm cool with eating eggs from backyard chickens and from farmers who I trust but I'm also cool with vegans being completely against it! IAMKOREA has issued a correction as of 19:15 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 19:12
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Don't chickens only lay eggs for a couple of years consistently but can live for potentially 10 years, you could accumulate a lot of chickens if you were feeding a family of 5 or 6 if you weren't getting rid of them when they were done producing Also, dogs can live completely fine on vegan dog food heck I've been feeding my rescue dog natural balance vegetarian dog food (it's vegan) for years and every vet check up he's perfectly healthy and he has energy for days. I have no idea about cats I doubt they could be fed a vegan diet
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Nov 12, 2020 20:32
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Do it ironically posted:Don't chickens only lay eggs for a couple of years consistently but can live for potentially 10 years, you could accumulate a lot of chickens if you were feeding a family of 5 or 6 if you weren't getting rid of them when they were done producing Yes that's true. A vegan could probably keep some rescue hens as pets just fine but add roosters to the mix and you're gonna have to accept some deaths.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:54
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So a local deli chain opened a vegetarian store in Oslo, and predictably people are mad about it. The most notable are the Centre Party (Norwegian rural party), whose representative said:quote:- I have no problem trying a vegan meal, but I will not support the ideology behind it. That's why I'll probably stay far away! In addition, I am interested in a varied and well-composed diet - where proteins are an important part. It is difficult to get enough protein with that kind of diet. The Centre Party have made it a point lately to attack veganism, since vegans are disgusting city-dwellers who represent everything wrong with modern society and who will cause the downfall of Norwegian farmers because vegans obviously don't consume anything produced at a farm. Many people have tried to inform the Centre Party that they are completely misinformed, but these attempts have so far fallen on deaf ears. Link to Google translate of the article: https://translate.google.com/transl...3424045535.html
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Nov 13, 2020 11:54
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you have to watch out for those evil vegans there’s literally tens of us
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Nov 13, 2020 18:25
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Do it ironically posted:you have to watch out for those evil vegans there’s literally tens of us I love to bring this up when people in-person set up a strawman vegan to attack. I’ve been vegan for a long time and I’ve met only one other vegan outside of meetups. Who are they talking about? How many vegans have they met, aside from myself? Did the vegan actually do and say those things, or is it some shared boogeyman inculcation that vegans are awful and insufferable and do and say these things? It’s pretty fun to watch their expression as you deprogram them and they acknowledge the bullshit they’ve built up over time through osmosis. If they double down, I ask them how they seem to meet so many vegans in the wild while I haven’t. biceps crimes has issued a correction as of 19:31 on Nov 13, 2020 |
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Nov 13, 2020 19:29
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gay_crimes posted:I love to bring this up when people in-person set up a strawman vegan to attack. I’ve been vegan for a long time and I’ve met only one other vegan outside of meetups. Because I actually take a stand toward protecting the local environment in local politics. The vegans are the worst loving people. Also a massive hindrance towards those goals. No, a principled moral stand based on arbitrary categories doesn't excuse all sorts of hideous poo poo including no shortage of literal nazi propaganda about "natural" things especially regarding race and overpopulation and disability.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:15
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endlessmonotony posted:Because I actually take a stand toward protecting the local environment in local politics. lol
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Nov 13, 2020 22:26
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In 2020 it shouldn't be hard to understand that Strong Moral Stances which, when taken to their extreme, require us to cull a significant amount of human population are natural (heh) fertile grounds for fascism and ecofascists are real, not my friend, and sometimes super about veganism. The plan where we all move to all-vegan diets isn't possible right now without first declaring a whole lot of disabled people unworthy of life and also putting a hell of a lot of time and effort into genetic engineering - as well as regular engineering - of perfect crops and farms. Funnily, the technology that would allow us to go full vegan without murdering anyone would also enable 3D printing replacement organs and that's research a lot of money is being poured into. So it's not a question of "we don't want to", it's a case of "we can't yet". Which means that if you're not an ecofascist you make compromises. Invertebrates are inevitable sources of animal labor and also allow us to convert human-inedible resources far more efficiently than any other method we have right now. Forage fish (anchovies, sardines, herrings) are a special case because the ocean's ecosystem is poorly suited for plants. And one of the compromises you make should be stopping calling yourself vegan so you don't give the fascists a place to hide.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:30
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Nov 13, 2020 22:32
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endlessmonotony posted:In 2020 it shouldn't be hard to understand that Strong Moral Stances which, when taken to their extreme, require us to cull a significant amount of human population are natural (heh) fertile grounds for fascism and ecofascists are real, not my friend, and sometimes super about veganism. how on earth does veganism require culling the human population like if it takes 10 tonnes of soybeans to make 1 tonne of beef... why not just make 10 tonnes of tofu? what the heck are you talking about dude wait oh lol source your quotes dog
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Nov 13, 2020 22:33
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Glad veganism still brings out the smoothest of leftist brains.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:36
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IAMKOREA posted:how on earth does veganism require culling the human population Veganism involves not killing animals for our food, including insects. It doesn't take any soybeans at all to produce beef, but that's irrelevant either way, because a primarily plant-based diet is still less resource-intensive than factory farming meat. However the way we produce plants involves a lot of death of things that would also rather like to eat our food, as well as the insects that help produce that food. Things bigger than insects can be dealt with humanely in most cases. Bugs? Not so much. We need to kill bugs. We need to kill a lot of bugs. Also it's not just pure calories there's a lot of cases where we need animal parts and byproducts to manufacture food and medication. Byproducts-only diet is possible. Synthetic diet allows us to go all animal sources free for healthy people. But there's a lot of work to be done.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:39
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IAMKOREA posted:
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Nov 13, 2020 22:39
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Also it hasn't loving clicked in 2020 that the disadvantaged could have told you the fascists are among us all along and you just never see it because they don't consider you within the easy target list yet?
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Nov 13, 2020 22:41
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endlessmonotony posted:Veganism involves not killing animals for our food, including insects. are you gonna do like a triangular toblerone chart with two pyramids, one black one white, with one labeled "BYPRODUCTS ONLY DIET" and the other labelled "SYNETHETIC DIET" or something soon? that would be cool and very much appreciated by LF connoisseurs such as myself
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Nov 13, 2020 22:42
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endlessmonotony posted:Veganism involves not killing animals for our food, including insects. As far as I'm aware, no vegans advocate a diet or lifestyle absolutely free of killing animals in the way you suggest is necessary. You've made up something new and are telling people that they're advocating for it.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:43
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:As far as I'm aware, no vegans advocate a diet or lifestyle absolutely free of killing animals in the way you suggest is necessary. You've made up something new and are telling people that they're advocating for it. Then you're not very aware. I mean I get it's probably like lesbians in the UK on trans issues, but jesus loving almighty are the ecofash out there.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:45
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it’s like they haven’t even read the definition of veganism
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Nov 13, 2020 22:45
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lol if you think the leap from "do not kill insects for food" to "do not kill insects for food" is a leap at all.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:47
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endlessmonotony posted:Then you're not very aware. Can you point me to someone who is, then? I suspect anyone advocating for veganism absolutely free of harming animals in every way whatsoever would have to immediately stop breathing (lest they swallow a gnat) and die within a minute or two, so it might be tough for you.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:47
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everyone knows vegans are the biggest source of strife at your local protecting the environment job, where you advocate for insect killing, the most important issue. big vegan puts their thumb on the scales with their incomplete analysis and nazi ideology. mortality means harm reduction is ableist and problematic. if one follows veganism to its logical conclusion, it is a picture of a unsustainably plastic boot, stamping upon the ashes of the environmental movement forever
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Nov 13, 2020 22:48
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Can you point me to someone who is, then? I suspect anyone advocating for veganism absolutely free of harming animals in every way whatsoever would have to immediately stop breathing (lest they swallow a gnat) and die within a minute or two, so it might be tough for you. Only people you'd dismiss as fringe quacks. Which should probably stir your memory a little, especially since I've made it repeatedly clear I'm visibly disabled.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:49
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endlessmonotony posted:Then you're not very aware. 
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Nov 13, 2020 22:49
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endlessmonotony posted:Only people you'd dismiss as fringe quacks. No? Ok.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:51
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:No? Ok. Look at the arguments being tossed against me here, especially their construction and tone. You're demanding evidence with parameters where you've already decided victory no matter the evidence based on extremely obvious cover to a basic motte-and-bailey. This is why leftist spaces are hostile to vegans. Because vegan arguments are a motte-and-bailey cover to ecofascism. Which is funny because going meatfree is meanwhile very popular, because you have a human well-being argument with no space for a reversal for that one.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:56
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You're sending me to go find a shaggy dog with your demand for links to opinions of people who you can then dismiss as fringe opinions, or to use my refusal to waste my time as an argument against my character. Instead provide me a reasoning why it's okay to kill insects for protecting our plants in industrial agriculture but not okay to kill insects to eat directly, while keeping it about the animals.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:02
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it’s not a false dichotomy lmao should be trying to achieve the least amount of suffering possible hope this helps friend
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Nov 13, 2020 23:04
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Do it ironically posted:it’s not a false dichotomy lmao should be trying to achieve the least amount of suffering possible hope this helps friend Define suffering. Then define suffering in a way that equates human suffering with insect suffering while distinguishing it from the avoidance of noxious stimuli plants also have. Provide citations. The concept of insects having the spare brain power to reflect on their circumstances is an extraordinary claim.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:07
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by god, that's fischmech's music!
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Nov 13, 2020 23:08
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Cows know they've lost a friend when one's slaughtered, and that's what got a farm boy questioning his way of life real hard. Bugs, not so much.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:08
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endlessmonotony posted:This is why leftist spaces are hostile to vegans. Because vegan arguments are a motte-and-bailey cover to ecofascism.  Most of the hostility in this thread (about two pages worth) are coming from one poster. also, as a person who is involved in local leftist orgs in a large city, I wouldn’t say there is any hostility at all! It’s primarily been curiosity and accommodation.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:09
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endlessmonotony posted:You're sending me to go find a shaggy dog with your demand for links to opinions of people who you can then dismiss as fringe opinions, or to use my refusal to waste my time as an argument against my character. Let's look at the definition posted earlier in this thread: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." So the argument would be that it's not "possible and practicable" to avoid killing insects when farming plants, but is "possible and practicable" to avoid killing insects to eat directly. Now will you find me some people making the claims you're ascribing to veganism? Be specific, don't point to the construction and tone of arguments tossed against you in this thread.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:11
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gay_crimes posted:
Oolb posted:um excuse me this is cspam, aggressive dickhead is the fashion. leftists talk so much game about the cool social trends but ultra clutch pearls at animal rights, and its like uh, its an insanely huge moral crisis. and then we get all these... *shrug* I give people a call of "don't call yourself vegan, attracts the fascists" personally, but that's about it.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:12
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endlessmonotony posted:Cows know they've lost a friend when one's slaughtered, and that's what got a farm boy questioning his way of life real hard. Did you know that if you rear male cockroaches in isolation, they develop signs of what we'd consider depression, including a lack of interest in sex?
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Nov 13, 2020 23:16
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Let's look at the definition posted earlier in this thread: This is just lazy, the flip is obvious. You're using an undefined "possible and practicable" that means whatever you want for it to as your arguments, and by that argument it's trivial to justify ruminant consumption - they eat grasses we don't and produce milk that's rich in b12 which otherwise creates a bottleneck easy to exploit for both profit and warfare. So, vegans eat beef. And by that standard, I was wrong all along.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:16
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I'm just going to talk about bugs now. Ask me about eating bugs or whatever. Did you know some wasps recognize faces?
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Nov 13, 2020 23:17
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endlessmonotony posted:This is just lazy, the flip is obvious. No. It's "possible and practicable" to not eat beef and still be perfectly fine. Probably a billion or so people exist as proof that this is true.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:17
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