C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

The western governments and media have done their best the last few years to educate their people about Xinjiang. But why was this narration even pushed into the mainstream? Do you seriously want to argue that the US/Europe is suddenly very concerned about the treatment of a muslim ethnic group in China when they can't even look without disdain at their own muslim population? This narration is deliberately used as a weapon against China, same as all the other war mongering in the past.

But that would not matter if there was clear evidence of genocide happening. Just because there is a western agenda in play doesn't mean China can't also be engaged in genocide. But as has been said before many times the actual evidence as presented by Falun Gong, Zenz and the state department is rather weak. Pointing out that almost all coverage goes back to the same ghouls and should not be trusted is not genocide denial. We don't have to prove that there is no genocide (how would you even do that), only that the evidence arguing for genocide is bullshit.

Flavius you posted before that the economic situation in Xinjiang is worsening for Uighurs but according to the Chinese government poverty across all Xinjiang is falling, even among Uighurs (the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang after all). You can of course doubt the Chinese government but now who exactly is denying?

As long as the discussion about this is only enforced one way you are enforcing the anti-China agenda whether you are conciously aware or not.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2021 22:15

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 14:02

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Maybe the guy who accused the Han Chinese of genociding themselves through their population control policies is not 100% genuine in his outrage. Just a thought

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 15:23

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

It's also weird to automatically dismiss doubting the narrative as conspiracy theories. All of the people posting here should be old enough to remember Powell waving with vials, nevermind more recent stuff like the OAS "evidence" in Bolovia.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 16:38

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Dolphin posted:

yeah that's not how burden of proof works.

Burden of proof is on the accuser. You say there is genocide in Xinjiang so post your proof or shut up.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 16:41

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Dolphin posted:

This is pathetic dude

The Xinjiang victims database openly admits that their data is not reliable so I don't see how that counts as evidence
https://shahit.biz/eng/#faq

quote:

Do you fact check all submissions? No, as this is too cost-prohibitive (given our resources) and often impossible (given the information vacuum in Xinjiang). For the most part, shahit.biz operates passively and imports data from a mix of public sources – such as video testimonies and media reports – and official documents, reporting as accurately as possible the information conveyed in the original source. It is outside our scope and ability to go out and corroborate each and every testimony. However, it is not rare for specific cases to become corroborated naturally over time, as new information comes in and we add it to the existing victim entries. Additionally, we do have staff dedicated to searching the Chinese internet for information about the documented victims, which sometimes yields corroborative information about their identities or, less frequently, about their detentions. Occasionally, though not very often, victims reported by people outside of China will also show up in the official government documents that we have limited access to. In the case that we receive an unsolicited submission from someone we do not know and whose identity we cannot immediately verify, we typically reach out to that person via e-mail so as to get additional details and to confirm their identity. Unsolicited submissions for which we cannot verify the submitting party nor corroborate the content are usually not accepted

How reliable is your data? It depends entirely on the victim(s) in question and on what you want to do. It should go without saying that reports about a given victim’s situation – even those sourced from official government documents – are only data points and should not be treated as cold facts. This is particularly true with Xinjiang, where even such a trivial task as calling a police station to confirm someone’s detention is either extremely difficult or impossible or even dangerous, with police refusing to discuss and hanging up over 90% of the time (and not saying anything helpful the other 9.99%). Consequently, the best way to process the data that result is by considering a LOT of it, searching for patterns, and using a certain amount of common sense. If the thermometer in your kitchen reads 30 degrees while the thermometer in your basement reads 15, it is unlikely that either represents the true temperature of your home, but – taken together – can still let you know that it is somewhere between these extremes and not, say, -5. If you are only looking at a few particular victim cases, then our best advice is for you to use us purely as a facilitator and to go through the cases yourself – analyzing the original source material that we have conveniently summarized for you and deciding for yourself what you think of it. If you are looking at large samples and don’t have time to analyze each victim entry in detail, then we suggest making use of our quality-rating system and restricting yourself to Tier-1 and Tier-2 entries only (high- and medium-quality entries) with the help of our filters page. In our experience, these entries are generally fairly reliable, as they are usually characterized by multiple testifiers, greater detail, and – in some cases – independent corroboration. Please do reach out and ask our opinion, however, as there are occasional nuances that may be difficult to grasp.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 17:32

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Max Blumenthal buying Petros with this Russian oil money

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 17:48

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Dolphin posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186251337882685442

And yes, he works for the Australian government.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1186252896649666561

His own source contradicts him lol

quote:

CORRECTION

Nov. 19th, 2019
A previous version of the graphic misstated the number of prosecutions in Xinjiang in 2018 as 363,000. In fact, that number represents Xinjiang's total prosecutions over five years ending in 2017. The number of Xinjiang prosecutions for 2018 is about 136,000.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 17:59

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Dolphin posted:

With the corrected info what would the number be?

The point is that he used a completely wrong statistic to arrive at his conclusion without bothering to do his own research. By that methodology why not claim ~25million Uighurs are in camps since as everyone knows China puts Uighurs in camps and there are that many Uighurs in Xinjiang.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:09

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

shocking new report that the CCP is multiplying the uighur population by putting their minds into those black mirror egg torture devices. this appalling and i condemn it

Yes sorry ~13 million Uighurs within a population of ~25 million, I should start working for the Australian government

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:25

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Grapplejack posted:

We know that the camps exist, and we know that they're "re-education camps" designed to "prevent terrorism" by "eradicating dangerous beliefs". That's straight from the chinese government.

They call it vocational training and education but here is what the Chinese government has to say about it:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201908/17/WS5d574e53a310cf3e355664b1.html

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 18:45

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Varinn posted:

lol

Lol awaiting the great purge to appease the China GBS thread

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 22:43

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Herstory Begins Now posted:

So there are internment camps and boarding schools and the chinese government itself is saying it's trying to change the culture of these people.

That sure seems an awful lot like the american or canadian residential school system for natives, which is considered a textbook example of a cultural genocide. I don't see how this is significantly different. Like why do you need to be taking kids and putting them into 'boarding schools'

There are 6 six languages of ethnic groups besides mandarin tought in Xinjiang, the problem is that the primary education was switched to mandarin. There is not an effort to completely eradicate the language. Will this over the long term lead to diminishing use of other ethnic languages? Yes. But it still is not the same thing done to the native americans.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 23:12

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

China has not officially aknowledged that they want to eradicate Uighur culture, actually quite the opposite. Their official stance is to prevent radicalization towards terrorism, with the camps aiming to combat the material conditions that enable such radicalization. You don't have to believe them and may argue that their actions will lead to the destruction of the culture but claiming they openly admit that as their goal is insane.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 00:15

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

BrainDance posted:

I can't speak for everyone but where I'm coming from, I'm really, really critical of the party. I'm incredibly suspicious of what they're doing in Xinjiang. I avoid 'genocide or not' discussions because I think, outside of specific situations that's a dumb way to go about it. You get into stupid semantics arguments. The question should be, are they doing something that's morally indefensible? Whatever noun you want for it, that's what really matters.

The thread exists because of mod decisions in the past that any labelling short of genocide about Xinjiang was bannable.

And even in this thread you have people arguing that, while not death camps surely there is no doubt that it is cultural genocide?

As has been posted before, there is no doubt that there are measures in place to further assimilation. The Chinese government very much wants everyone to learn mandarin for both adults and children and they have ended exemption from stuff like U2C. "Re-education" camps exists and people can be sent there after being arrested and charged. Various police measures are used with counterterrorism as justification.

Does China however want to deliberately exterminate Uighur culture, aka cultural genocide? That would mean erasing their language (while not primary language it is still taught and public use in Xinjiang is unsurprisingly very common), their history, their cultural rituals, their clothing, their religion etc. If you have sources I would be interested to read them but from my view the extent of cultural repression does not meet genocide. Bad things can happen without it being outright extermination. China is not a monoculture.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 10:29

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

THS posted:

how do you not get how obtuse and silly this is.
“i posted random poo poo i googled and didn’t read, other people actually read it critically, and questioned the veracity of sources either linked to the state dept or zenz”

that doesn’t help your case at all

Ah but you see he knew beforehand this would happen so it was actually very smart

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 16:13

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Some Guy TT posted:

so has anyone been able to quantify this xinjiang forced labor thing i ask because that talking points been making a big comeback but last time i tried to investigate the sourcing all i could find was an australian paper whose main bit of evidence was i poo poo you not a deleted personal ad where someone said they were looking to sell ughyur labor but did not explicitly say that the ughyurs themselves were also expecting to be paid

https://jamestown.org/product/coercive-labor-and-forced-displacement-in-xinjiangs-cross-regional-labor-transfer-program/

:v:

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 17:53

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Thorn Wishes Talon posted:

I only post in the Doomsday econ thread so I hope it's okay if I share my two cents here.

We don't know what is really happening in Xinjiang because the Chinese government is refusing to allow independent international journalists and NGOs to go in to investigate and document the practices. That is literally the only reason, and it makes no sense to use it as the basis for hesitating to call it genocide because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, particularly when the only entity preventing the gathering of said evidence is the Chinese government.

Why are they adopting such a stance of aggressive stonewalling? After all, there has to be nobody in the world who wants to permanently refute these allegations of genocide more than China. Such allegations are terrible for a country's reputation and can hang like a black cloud over any other endeavor they might wish to pursue in the international arena.

People here constantly (and correctly) bash the Biden administration for refusing to allow lawyers into the camps at the US border and generally failing to be much more transparent when it comes to how refugees are treated. But it seems those same people are willing to resort to all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid holding China to the same standards. Sure, there might be some reluctant admissions that China may be "too heavy handed" or they might be committing a few human rights abuses here and there, but there's a substantial and very noticeable amount of sympathizing with China. Why? What makes China deserve this type of benefit of the doubt? I mean yes, this is the leftist subforum, but when did leftists become fascist sympathizers?

I don't know why there needs to be a consensus on the definition of genocide among posters for there to be moderation, because these forums don't exist in a vacuum. The term has a well-recognized and widely accepted meaning in international circles:

And you know what? We know for a fact that the bolded one is happening. We know because Chinese officials have themselves confirmed half of it — that birth rates amongst Uyghur women in Xinjiang have plummeted. They of course denied that this was due to forced sterilizations, but one must ask if there's a meaningful difference between forced sterilizations, and imposing conditions on these women such that they must avoid getting pregnant at all costs, to the point where many are willing to undergo "voluntary" sterilization if they want to have any hope of meeting the conditions of their release (if they are even given a chance to try getting pregnant in the first place — we don't know if they are allowed to fraternize with men). Now, intent is a requisite of the "genocide" label, so you might ask, is the prevention of births the intent of the Chinese government? Who knows — the Chinese government won't let us independently interview the women ourselves. I'm sure the CPP is loving the fact that these women are learning Chinese and producing widgets instead of pumping out little Uyghur babies, though.

Putting all that aside, those refusing to call the treatment of Uyghurs "genocide" on the basis that "they are just re-education camps" should ask themselves what their reaction would be if the United States repurposed its camps at the border into indoctrination facilities where every incoming refugee must forget their Guatamalan-ness/Costa Rican-ness/Nicaraguan-ness/etc. and instead learn English and the American Way of Life and a set of skills determined by the US government so that they can be a "productive" member of society, before they are allowed into the country. I suspect that people here would be falling over themselves to label it genocide, then, and all these distinctions between real genocide and cultural genocide would be thrown out the window in a heart beat.

At the end of the day what China does is much more than a series of human rights abuses. It is a crime against humanity. Considering this, whether it fits the definition of genocide perfectly or only partially is almost besides the point.

Journalists are given access, as least in a pre covid world, even those highly critical of China like https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48667221
As has been posted before you can also literally visit Xinjiang, it is not an open air prison.
China is also open about its U2C population control measures and has removed the exemption from ethnic minorities in 2017. Uighur population in Xinjiang is still growing and has not declined.
What annoys me is that you can't just pick one of the aspects of cultural genocide and call it a day. Population control is enforced across Han Chinese as well, do you want to make the claim that the Han are genociding themselves? That's ridiculous.
As your hypothetical american reeducation camps the US does not need to do this in camps as the whole system inside the country is built around assimilation into the american way of life lol.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2021 23:18

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

I guess to the point of why isn't China just openly releasing everything to let people see for themselves is that it still wouldn't deter the USA. Iran followed everything the nuclear demanded from then and still the US just decided they are megahitler after all. Though liberals soothe their conscience by claiming it was just Trump doing that on his own.

Agreeing though with the notion that the thread has run its course.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:07

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 14:02

Junkozeyne: Feb 13, 2012

Flavius Aetass posted:

don't worry about next door, just understand that i was able to open the topic up a bit on C-SPAM but it's still going to be a sensitive issue to post about so mind that when you do

i promise nobody here is going to get banned for anything they've said itt so long as it doesn't take a sudden turn into idk, like straight up nazi poo poo (not comparing what's been said to nazi poo poo)

i'll be closing it tomorrow sometime since I think we've sorted it out and I want the other mods to have a chance to give their 2 cents

But why start actually reading the thread now when you can just call people tankies instead

# ¿ Mar 27, 2021 01:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > C-SPAM moderation and Xinjiang: read rules in op