Dolphin posted:

if the us wanted to go to war with China we would have actually just invented poo poo about covid, that was the best opportunity not mistreatment of muslims

Dolphin posted:

aren't you accusing the us of trying to start a war?

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts. not absolute of course and there is definitely resentment brewing but you gotta remember that "radical islamic terrorism" wasnt some dogwhistle or abstraction in xinjiang like we think of it in the US, this was at their doorstep, they actually were being regularly attacked, terrorized, and these programs have produced favorable results.

i mean take whatever you want away from that but just something to keep in mind if you start getting white savior brain

THS posted:

some people don’t see the US media as an extension for american interests, for the US state. of course it is, doubly so for reporting on overseas issues. but it’s separate to them, as if one can discuss these narratives in a vacuum without critically engaging with where they are coming from or why

BrainDance posted:

But, would you agree that this is not unique to America? It just matters the most in regards to America because of their overwhelming reach, and since most of us are Americans.

I just see people who, rightly, recognize this in American media, but then lose their skepticism entirely when it comes to anything and everything in Chinese media. As if China isn't manufacturing its own consent. And, I honestly don't get it.

Flavius Aetass posted:

hey i can tell everybody right now that regardless of C-SPAM mods' opinions this is the kind of post that will have people baying for permas

don't justify whatever you want to call what is going on in xinjiang like this or it's going to cause problems for all of us

i don't care if you're right or wrong about this. be careful how you talk about it

Flavius Aetass posted:

i don't care if you're right or wrong about this. be careful how you talk about it

Dolphin posted:

I'm having trouble finding it, does anyone know what china considers "extremism?"

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

im not justifying it, i even touched on the hosed up poo poo the cops will do to this end.

Lostconfused posted:

Could have just said this was always about thought police.

Flavius Aetass posted:

hey i can tell everybody right now that regardless of C-SPAM mods' opinions this is the kind of post that will have people baying for permas

don't justify whatever you want to call what is going on in xinjiang like this or it's going to cause problems for all of us

i don't care if you're right or wrong about this. be careful how you talk about it

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

another thing is that there is actually a lot of internal uyghur support for the anti-radicalization efforts.

Baykin posted:

Could you explain further what you mean about being careful about it? I have no idea if what was said is even remotely true, but if it is, how could the feelings of the actual population being affected not matter?

Baykin posted:

Again, this is you not understanding the concept of burden of proof.

BrainDance posted:

But how do you even know this though? Genuinely, because I don't know (I have more tact than to go around asking people in Xinjiang about it) but I would be skeptical of anyone saying either this or the opposite.

Flavius Aetass posted:

If they had instead seen a bunch of people justifying it and saying maybe it works that qcs thread would have turned out very differently

and regardless of whether that's what F Stop Fitzgerald meant, that's what it would appear like

The Oldest Man posted:

I'm not asking about an ideal world. I am asking do you, right now, support intervention by the US government against China to include economic sanctions and/or military action and do you support intervention by other world governments including China against the US to include economic sanctions and/or military action?

Flavius Aetass posted:

I mean the admins took a look at this thread today because they were very concerned and the thing that satisfied them was that people were mostly saying "we know really bad things are happening there but we doubt the veracity of the claims that there are literal death camps, etc."

If they had instead seen a bunch of people justifying it and saying maybe it works that qcs thread would have turned out very differently

and regardless of whether that's what F Stop Fitzgerald meant, that's what it would appear like

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

like yeah if you truly believe the zenz line, then my post was extremely hosed up. saying concentration camps work is pretty bad!

Baykin posted:

Would you be able to find any sources for your claims about the feelings in Xinjiang, if only to satisfy my own curiosity?

THS posted:

i think we should copy the “post my favorites” subforum and everyone gets their own thread about xinjiang that only they can post in

Baykin posted:

Specifically what I think this thread is about is that posts like this:


lead to user's being incredibly frustrated and responding with posts like this:


keeps happening repeatedly and the ban reason flat out implies that there is in fact genocide commencing.

I'm aware this isn't in CSPAM or how the exact order of posts played out but it's an example of the types of punishment that's been repeatedly handed out in CSPAM lately and this thread thankfully looks likes its going to curb it.

quote:

Congratulations, your genocide denial has earned you another ban! You're well on your way to a perma. I advise you to never discuss genocide here again.

Yinlock posted:

this is an important question to keep in mind, because imperialist propaganda loves painting war as some grim inevitability rather than a conscious choice

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

gently caress im gonna get banned arent i

The Oldest Man posted:

These two points specifically are where I'm at. I don't post a lot about China but the degree to which the moderation team in general is willing to police the discussion about the US's ongoing genocidal projects according to the US government's propaganda line and police the discussion about China's ongoing genocidal projects also according to the US government's propaganda line makes it pretty hard to take the idea of an honest discussion on these topics seriously.

Crusty Nutsack posted:

when you talk about the mod team policing discussion about the US's genocide projects, are you talking about cspam mods?

The Oldest Man posted:

No but the China rule is not solely the province of the CSPAM mods so this conversation not addressing the wider site is part of what makes me skeptical that it's really all that honest to begin with.

Flavius Aetass posted:

I mean the admins took a look at this thread today because they were very concerned and the thing that satisfied them was that people were mostly saying "we know really bad things are happening there but we doubt the veracity of the claims that there are literal death camps, etc."

If they had instead seen a bunch of people justifying it and saying maybe it works that qcs thread would have turned out very differently

and regardless of whether that's what F Stop Fitzgerald meant, that's what it would appear like

Baykin posted:

I know that this might ultimately be a really terrible idea overall, but could you maybe request in the mod forum for everybody to read and/or participate in this thread or maybe their own thread? I feel like this is important enough of an issue that management as a whole should probably have some discussion about. If that ultimately leads to mass purges of CSPAM then better sooner than later lol.

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

gently caress im gonna get banned arent i

Serf posted:

the end result of this thread was always gonna be skeptics getting banned

The Oldest Man posted:

Herstory Begins Now posted:

the idea that the population in xinjiang has so many extremists in it that this is some kind of a popular policy locally just seems categorically loving ridiculous without some absolutely massive evidence of such. Cracking down on specific extremists is probably popular, because no one ever likes extremists regardless of whether it's religion or politics involved. The suggestion that cracking down and arresting and sending to re-education camps a significant fraction of the entire muslim population in xinjiang is popular among the muslim population in xinjiang is frankly comical

Flavius Aetass posted:

don't worry about next door, just understand that i was able to open the topic up a bit on C-SPAM but it's still going to be a sensitive issue to post about so mind that when you do

i promise nobody here is going to get banned for anything they've said itt so long as it doesn't take a sudden turn into idk, like straight up nazi poo poo (not comparing what's been said to nazi poo poo)

i'll be closing it tomorrow sometime since I think we've sorted it out and I want the other mods to have a chance to give their 2 cents

Flavius Aetass posted:

don't worry about next door, just understand that i was able to open the topic up a bit on C-SPAM but it's still going to be a sensitive issue to post about so mind that when you do

i promise nobody here is going to get banned for anything they've said itt so long as it doesn't take a sudden turn into idk, like straight up nazi poo poo (not comparing what's been said to nazi poo poo)

i'll be closing it tomorrow sometime since I think we've sorted it out and I want the other mods to have a chance to give their 2 cents

Serf posted:

what is the conclusion we've arrived at? it feels like nothing has been actually agreed upon and things are even worse than when we started

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

yeah that would be weird if they supported that particular thing. seems like theres been a lot of doubt about that happening though, itt

Herstory Begins Now posted:

The suggestion that cracking down and arresting and sending to re-education camps a significant fraction of the entire muslim population in xinjiang is popular among the muslim population in xinjiang is frankly comical

Herstory Begins Now posted:

I am wildly unaware of any concentration of islamic extremists in xinjiang that would, even if scaled up by a couple orders of magnitude, justify anything close to the scale of imprisonment they've faced. While I've seen uighur names turn up in various records from jihadi groups in the middle east, that concerns maybe dozens of names and the names are disproportionately more common there because they keep floating around because China has resisted ever taking them back going back at least two decades now

the idea that the population in xinjiang has so many extremists in it that this is some kind of a popular policy locally just seems categorically loving ridiculous without some absolutely massive evidence of such. Cracking down on specific extremists is probably popular, because no one ever likes extremists regardless of whether it's religion or politics involved. The suggestion that cracking down and arresting and sending to re-education camps a significant fraction of the entire muslim population in xinjiang is popular among the muslim population in xinjiang is frankly comical

Herstory Begins Now posted:

haven't seen a single person in here actually suggesting that tons of uighurs aren't being imprisoned, so idk about that