oxsnard posted:

I had no idea that 100% of the data on fertility was from one guy but yeah after reading through the news articles it's clearly the case.

Eugene V. Dubstep posted:

You can verify it yourself starting here and working backward to 2010. The relevant section is '2-8 Total Population by Urban and Rural Residence, Birth Rate, Death Rate, Natural Growth Rate and by Region (2019)': http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/ndsj/2020/indexeh.htm

e: the relevant two year period (birth rate is the third column from the right)

2017:
2019:

Some Guy TT posted:

another point of interest is that several provinces actually have negative iud placement rates which completely fucks up the use of net iud placement as a reasonable statistic because when you say xinjiang account for eighty percent of net placements what youre actually doing is comparing it to other rural provinces where iuds were only recently introduced most of which have a smaller population than xinjiang the result being that xinjiang when it comes to this particular statistic is literally being blown out of proportion

Mandoric posted:

I don't think it has any relation to how Chinese (which is honestly not a very useful collective term, even LESS useful the more we accept that Xinjiang is oppressed!) dissent in China. But your claim is that Chinese dissidents in China are uniquely cowed due to government interference in the practice of their religion, and I'm counterarguing that an American practitioner of that religion was famously extrajudicially executed in the somewhat recent past in order to promote a more moderate strain and thus the cowing is not unique.

e: Or Anwar al-Awlaki (and both his children!) to name a more recent example. "Public statements by Chinese religious dissidents are suspect because of the greater threat of force against their speakers": this is a statement you can only make if you believe that the Chinese government is threatening some greater force than murder of one's entire family, and that's so absurd on its face that it leaves me suspecting that the person who made it is taking a position first and then accepting what must be true if it's valid rather than assembling facts and building them into their position.

Some Guy TT posted:

the datas skewed less by other rural provinces as it is by the fact that negative rates for urban provinces are loving up the overall math in such a way that you cant even interpret the 80% as being relative to a hundred

for a sense of perspective running the (328475 - 89018)/(3774318 - 3474467) = 239457/299851 = 80% calculation for the third province from the top results in that province making up 61% of all the net iud placements in china this is obviously impossible if xinjiang accounts for 80% until you remember that many high population provinces on this chart have negative rates which means they also have negative percentages

also note that the overall net iud placement rate is only three hundred thousand short of requiring the calculation to involve a negative number for every individual rate so in short trying to go full pedant on the chart only makes it that much more obvious that zens is a laughable hack and china daily actually did him a favor in fact checking the way hes interpreted rather than on the actual strictly defined strength of his frankly ridiculous claim

Mandoric posted:

Alternately, you're believing in the concentration camp for millions entirely and solely because its existence is necessary to make it plausible that Uyghur Muslims are exceptionally cowed.

Mandoric posted:

how on earth do you think they're hiding that in a tourism-and-agriculture region anyone from a country that isn't a plague pit can just rent a car and drive out to?

Mandoric posted:

e: eternal lololol that your measurement is Moscow to Auschwitz and not Berlin to Auschwitz, way to give away the game

Prince Myshkin posted:

The famous Soviet death camps of Auschwitz, which the Soviets also deviously liberated, perhaps as some elaborate form of Asiatic trickery.

Prince Myshkin posted:

Did Auschwitz have an airport with regular transnational flight routes leading there?

Mandoric posted:

And wew, good fuckin' luck finding an East Asian part of the "free world" that hasn't also done most its big policy debates as between factions in the ruling party while the opposition/coalition parties (of which China has several ineffective ones--it's a good example of how China is not particularly better either!) sat off to the side. My inclination is to mostly write it off as a mismatch between the terms for "party" and "bloc", but if you want to advocate some skull-measuring, there but for the grace of God.

Agrajag posted:

i dont doubt there is ethnic cleansing going on with china's policies towards uighurs but i do find it weird that many of the same people/instituions seem to ignore what israel has done and continues to do to the palestinians which is ethnic cleansing and also the american gov't continued logistics support/arms sales to saudi arabia that is directly responsible for what can arguably be considered ethnic cleansing in yemen

like theres some serious double standards going on here and makes me wonder what exactly the motivations are for this campaign going on in regards to china bad

Agrajag posted:

the point is the national conversation is all about China bad but then all the same people going china bad have let Israel do their thing for decades. so what makes what China is doing genocide but what Israel is doing not genocide and what Saudi Arabia is doing not genocide in your eyes? What is the fine line that makes what China is doing so extraordinarily out of the norms of what we have accepted for decades from our allies?

also having watched the slow roll of the Iraq war WMD campaign play out makes me extremely skeptical of whats being pushed out in regards to China bad

Agrajag posted:

yeah so is it not reasonable to question why the gently caress this is happening at all or what?

Why is China exceptionally bad but Israel and Saudi Arabia not to you?

Agrajag posted:

if me bringing up how weird it is that people like you have a problem with China committing genocide but have not been bothered enough to be upset by the decades long policies of other countries doing the exact same poo poo then sure call me an apologist.

Agrajag posted:

yeah watching the country manufacture consent to invade another country and questioning the motivations sure is very genocide apologist of me

gradenko_2000 posted:

THS posted:

the US is not going to invade mainland china, the fear is a combination of cold war, sanctions, proxy wars, further militarization of the region, supporting separatists, and brinksmanship to stop China’s rise as it grows more powerful than the US. there are all kinds of ways this can get incredibly dangerous, escalate, and kill lots of people

Baykin posted:

Again for seemingly the hundredth time, present proof that there is an actual genocide happening, instead of heavy handed policing that is likely catching up far more innocent people than it would be if all cops weren't terrible across the world. We instead have the entirety of the US's history since WW2 as evidence that the US drumming up anti-(nation) sentiment will in turn be used in some fashion (sanctions to outright invasions) to cause far more harm than whatever they are accusing that nation of doing.

Because these are the actual sides of the issue, unless someone would instead prefer to just not comment one way or the other. You either consciously or not advance the US's line, or you try to combat against it. The west's overwhelming world stage presence and power just flat out doesn't allow a "heh, clearly they are both bad and I am super enlightened" middle ground.

Some Guy TT posted:

its interesting how apparently you need me to clarify the exact parts of the chart im referring to despite a progenocide labeling poster using literally the exact same terms and the exact same math to arrive at the exact opposite conclusion because they decided to give zenz the benefit of the doubt in regards to net iud placement actually being a meaningful measurement

why its almost as if youre simply treating any claims with political undertones youre inclined to agree with as being inherently reliable and only bothering to interrogate methodology if its being used to make claims with political undertones youre not inclined to agree with

Ferrinus posted:

It doesn't make sense on its face because prison labor is extremely inefficient and unproductive compared to wage labor, especially wage labor that requires some sort of training and resource investment like electrical work or whatever. Wage labor is obviously still coercive - either you fix my wiring, or the wiring of whoever else buys your labor-power, or you don't get to eat! - but there's no chance in hell the Chinese government is looking to enslave rather than train and indoctrinate the rural populations it's drawing into training centers.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

i just want to make sure here, you know there are prisons in america where the prisoners have to pick cotton right? heres a study about it https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/betr/vol2/iss1/9/

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

yea that's not really the point here bud. the point is that your outrage is directed solely toward china because the state wants it to be.

comedyblissoption posted:

it's concern trolling (or deep ignorance) when the people wringing their hands about chinese oppression continue to support the genociders biden, obama, etc. and insist we arent running concentration camps in the united states

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

starting to think a poster who makes xi=winnie the pooh jokes doesnt have the best intentions wrt discussing this

Agrajag posted:

like theres some serious double standards going on here and makes me wonder what exactly the motivations are for this campaign going on in regards to china bad

Agrajag posted:

also having watched the slow roll of the Iraq war WMD campaign play out makes me extremely skeptical of whats being pushed out in regards to China bad

Agrajag posted:

our entire foreign policy history is literally manufacturing various excuses for invading other countries, violent regime change, proxy wars, funding death squads, and supporting/creating dictators that commit crimes against humanity/genocide

so why this campaign of china bad and committing genocide if it isnt literally to do one of these things?

Agrajag posted:

never posited china is good just that if were looking at who is worst bad guy on the world stage with a proven track record of exporting violence and misery it is america and that this whole campaign of china bad feels a lot like the slow roll of what went on before the invasion of iraq hence im super loving skeptical about it all

really queer Christmas posted:

But what is the point then of continuing to belabor that China bad too? Who does it benefit except to own posting enemies? There is, at least , a benefit to westerners and Americans talking about American crimes because we can at least do something about it more than just have our country rattle a saber at a foreign power. If you just want people to admit China is doing a very bad thing, then congrats you seem to have already gotten it from everyone here. What else, then, is the goal?

Brain Candy posted:

this kind of thing appears to be pure projection. this is a 38 page thread with extensive discussion

Junkozeyne posted:

But why start actually reading the thread now when you can just call people tankies instead