Age of Sigmar V3.0: Krule and the Boyz

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The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

This really feels more about organization and presentation than a game changer in its own right. The way I see it:

For experienced players on launch year, modular rules won't change much. You're probably gonna play with all the rules anyway.

If you're learning, or teaching a new player, onboarding will be so much easier. Add a module every game or two, and boom. Compared to hunting for areas of complexity to excise or hold back on, now you can just say "we're not using 3 or 6 yet, don't sweat those."

Once more alternate rules launch, the modules will make it a lot easier to build your game on the fly. That'll be where modular design shines, but they'll need to commit to it to flesh it out to that point.

My hope is when they say "we won't need errata," they mean they won't need the annoying, bloated line by line pdfs that everybody says are the death of the hobby. It's easier to go "here's the new Module 4, it'll also be in the new GHB". So long as the GHB isn't the only source, it should be a net improvement.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2024 20:43

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 23:33

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Oh, this article is absolutely 99% buzzword. Even modular rules right now are more for overhauling presentation and streamlining learning than they are for genuine effect. I can't imagine people legitimately going "can we play a full game but without commands and magic" unless it was for some kind of gimmick event. But I do think they're hoping to cut down on the pages of line by line errata and replace it with "here's the new Section 2, just read this instead."

# ¿ Mar 29, 2024 14:09

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Its a tricky as hell balance. Nobody likes in text errata. It makes the value of the physical book fall off fast and makes referencing rules a pain. However, broken rules being left to fester is even worse. Getting things right the first time is obviously the ideal, but in a game that changes and grows across years at a time like Warhammer updates and revisions are always going to be needed.

Just making the rules fully free online, and making codexes an enthusiast's product, would at least tackle the value half of the equation. But unfortunately 40k showed that'll never happen. Hell, the months of all indexes being free was so good it legit hampered my interest in the game once they were taken away.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2024 14:51

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

grassy gnoll posted:

This really is the correct way for any product, but it's going to be particularly galling when they set up the production and distribution of the index info, and could just continue to update that as the means of errata distribution.

This is what drove me crazy with 40k! Seeing options literally disappear from the app one by one, especially when differences from the Index were small and especially-especially before codexes hit mass release, was agony. In an edition where the full rules were 100% free it felt like such an about face.

Anyway, y'all keep your double turn, though if you take it you don't get a battle tactic.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2024 16:14

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Geisladisk posted:

Agreed, but we both know they're not gonna do that.

In a perfect world, yes, but we both know they can't write rules that bulletproof on the first go and I think both of us agree that having a functional game is more important than not ~invalidating my book~

Honestly I'd be amazed if anyone wrote rules bulletproof on the first go, especially for a game that's hella expansive and dragged down by decades of design cruft. Look at the free wargear decision, where you can see the freaking tree rings on how different kits from different eras respond to the change. Look at how Codex: Marines has maybe five times the models any faction reasonably needs, and that's after a surprising amount of purges on the old range. Honestly AoS is lucky for having way less of that built-in bloat. And even then it's nearing a decade, with like two dozen armies under its belt.

And then with how the games' release schedules work, those rulesets need to remain bulletproof across 2-3 years of codex and battletome releases. Indexhammer helps because it at least lets everyone start the ed on the same foot, but then that hits its own problems. If not a lot changes, you wonder even more why you're paying for rules when 80% of them are going to line up 1 to 1 with the free release you just got. If a lot does change, suddenly we're back to the same old question of power creep and design scope changing over the span of an edition.

Killing codexes and battletomes, or at least their physical book versions, honestly seems like the only way to square the circle. But you'd need to convince GW the soft gain (more people trying more factions due to free rules) and reduced costs (no longer needing to do all that printing and shipping) are worth not having the direct book revenue.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2024 16:50

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

AnEdgelord posted:

To be clear my perspective is of someone who has a fully painted SCE army and largely got into the army off the back of Annihilators and Dragons. I have painted both a Vindictor from the Dominion box and a Liberator from the Start Collecting. My hate for the old fatcast is not some distant thing, these are models on my display shelf that I played with throughout 3rd edition. These new liberators are an insane glowup that won't look like loving poo poo next to my other thunderstrike models and, while I'm non-plussed about the Ruination chamber SCE not having a more creative design, I am very excited to banish the lovely 1st edition SCE from the game.

To be fair, the article explicitly says these are not the Ruination Chamber. Which I'm kind of glad for, because we really didn't need an 8th battleline unit to sell the new box with. Especially when the Ruination Chamber, by definition, sounds very much non-battleline-y.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2024 21:16

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

MonsterEnvy posted:

I like the gameplay relevant keywords getting their own section.

The gameplay relevant keywords and USRs getting their own section is good. But instead of being a teeny-tiny list at the bottom where the listbuilding keywords go, they really should be near the top and in some pretty legible print.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2024 23:57

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

It's kinda weird to me that they're freshly resculpting Liberators, then immediately deciding there's no difference between their super visually distinct looking options. Like, I'd get it for if they all had one shield and then different weapons like swords, hammers, and axes. But a guy with a shield and a guy with two weapons communicate such different ideas it feels weird to intentionally roll them into one profile.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2024 18:00

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

That's the frustrating thing about designing for GW products, I imagine. If the design philosophy changes, all the models from before that design philosophy are going to be left high and dry.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2024 00:51

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

I'd say them lopping off half of the Stormcast range feels like them giving up on that. That said, this edition was kind of a missed chance to make Cities of Sigmar the starter box faction for a change.

Fantasy in general, but especially Age of Sigmar, kind of has a more cosmopolitan feel to it than 40k. Outside of Morathi and the Idoneth, all of the Order factions feel on pretty good terms with each other, so you could rotate out who the "hero" is every box set really easily.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2024 04:22

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Winklebottom posted:

I think they're fine enough models but this area

is kind of a visual mess

I like the intentionality of that mess, tbh. The idea of desperately sticking reminder after reminder of a Stormcast's heroic deeds onto their armor, while they no longer remember or feel anything about any of them, is such a fun contrast. And you can play it two ways, too. Is it a genuine attempt to help them hold onto their humanity? Or dressing up a nothing of a person in past glories to hide that they're nothing but a shell?

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 15:53

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Lostconfused posted:

Oh, lmao, thought it was a joke, not literally.

It's their entire design concept and it rules. They're covered in forgotten glories and shepherded into battle by their living kin.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 15:55

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Yeah. These guys are part Death Company, part Dreadnought, but given an extra dimension by how much more human Stormcast are than Marines. There's also an inevitability to them that the loose Marine equivalents lack. A Dreadnought is a special circumstance. Not every Blood Angel falls to the Death Company. But this?

This is the inevitable fate of every single Stormcast.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2024 17:35

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Blasmeister posted:

half inch coherency at least stops some of the 'well technically 25mm bases are less than an inch so they I can move this unit through the gaps in my elite units' or 'actually 20 hobgrots in a single line is coherent' stuff that felt like exploits in 3rd. movement trays sound like a reasonable pickup in future for my crypt ghouls though.

Shooting in combat being reduced, and 'whoops my pile in took your guys out of combat now you don't get to fight' taken away also seems good. And the charge reroll is in fact working exactly like it used to, seemed super weak read the other way so that's a relief.

Was shooting in combat reduced? I must've missed that.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 16:32

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Blasmeister posted:

No shooting in combat unless your weapon has 'shoots in combat'

This is huge and I'm here for it. Nasty combo with mortals on the fall back, too. Saving a cp to Redeploy some screens may be a must for range dependent armies.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2024 17:02

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Funzo posted:

So Six generic tactics and 2 for each grand alliance? Better then it was at least.
I'm not sure I like the idea of taking the double means giving up the points. Makes the priority roll a lot less interesting, since I would think people will skip the double turn unless they're already winning by a lot. Maybe I'm wrong though, I don't have a lot of experience with more competitive games.

The way I see it, it's a zero-sum numbers game. If you giving up 4 points on your turn makes the opponent lose 5 or more, it's the right call.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 16:08

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

I think Talas means knowing all of them to avoid being caught off guard (though that'd be fourteen, 6 general + 8 faction).

# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 17:19

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

To be fair its occupy four quarters and have none of them in enemy paddling range. But six inches probably isn't too hard to avoid, especially if you're using small units and deep strikes to pull it off.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 20:34

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Desfore posted:

I dunno, since they're grouping multiple spells into different lores, they might just be a universal thing all armies will take, just like the faction terrain. It wouldn't surprise me if they've re-written the way the Krondspire works to fit more balance-wise with the other spells, or maybe just having access to summoning 3 or 4 smaller endless spells is the balance against just having one Krondspire?

I guess this is one of the benefits of the modular design. I'd hate to be a newcomer to AoS, and now see I HAVE to get the faction terrain, the faction spells, the malign sorceries, all before you even start building the army.

Frankly I'd treat endless spells and faction terrain as modules way more readily than I would casting or terrain as a whole. At least for endlesses leaving them out should balance overall, though leaving out faction terrain will def hit some armies more than others.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 17:36

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Ravendas posted:

I was checking Amazon, there's a box on there, specifically labeled as Skaven Endless Spells, with what looks like some lightning spires, a rat swarm and some magic bell. For $60.

These are pretty pricey additions. The sylvaneth wyldwoods are $51 each and that spell says you can have three on the board at once.

This is really the annoying part about the decision. It's free point value (meaning it's all but necessary) and for some factions is vastly important (elf trees), only to be very much not free dollarwise.

We need to return to the era of free cardboard standees in starter kits and White Dwarf for rules like this, imo. Then keep the models as the awesome option for hobbyists and enthusiasts.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 18:00

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

Another slight difference is units getting different rules for Spearhead and the main game.

40k just used universal rules and so certain combat Patrols are unbalanced against others. To combat that 40k is remaking all their combat patrols to be more balanced. It's creating drag on sales because the main seller for a lot of kits was the discounted big units. New Combat Patrols have been fewer points, no big models and a smaller discount at larger price.

40k had different datasheets too. But stats generally stayed the same, so it was usually just removing special abilities to make them less complicated.

Ironically, AoS' lack of S-T tables may be its big advantage here. You could never get away with an Armiger CP like you can a little giant box for Spearhead.

# ¿ May 1, 2024 16:47

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

grassy gnoll posted:

Well, it seems like they put more thought into this than Combat Patrol, at least. I question if this is going to have any value as a teaching tool for 4.0, though.

I think it changes enough to be interesting without jeopardizing its teaching role. I hope rules from it can get expanded into a Maelstrom equivalent, though.

# ¿ May 2, 2024 16:41

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Mors Rattus posted:

Legitimately I feel like there's probably some kind of way to scale it up, though you'd need to deal with the fact that outside Spearhead you can just...use commands, rather than having to only use the ones on your cards. I'm feeling maybe your choice is between the tactics and bonus free commands?

Make them each two points imo, and cap scoring from them at 4 points per round. That lets them slot perfectly into the existing mission score system, and incentivizes accomplishing multiple without needing all three for a "perfect" round.

It also soft disincentivizes throwing too many free commands around, because at 12 cards across 5 rounds it'll eventually cut into your victory point totals. I don't think you need further cost on the orders from there. As is, it sounds vaguely comparable to discarding a secondary in 40k for an extra command point, albeit one you can only spend on a specific order.

Similarly, you can probably import the Spearhead style double turn by making it free for a 10 point gap instead of a 5 point one. Not too hard to scale up, and keeps the intent of only being free if you're already in a rough position.

For importing the twist deck, I could see appeal in a choice between picking the mission twist or hoping for a good draw. The devil you know vs the devil you don't. But by that point we're probably in silly territory.

The Bee fucked around with this message at 00:00 on May 3, 2024

# ¿ May 2, 2024 23:51

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

I'm so glad they're expanding on the Anvil instead of banishing it. It's interesting that, compared to narrative quest mechanics like 40k's Crusade and 3rd ed's Paths, they seem to be focusing on customizing and growing your units instead.

# ¿ May 3, 2024 15:17

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

That's the main rub about Crusade and Path to Glory narratives, I find. The faction mechanics are cool, but also pigeonhole things a little. It also kinda feels weirdly disconnected sometimes? In 40k a GSC, Tyranid, and Tau player can all be fighting to control planets, but they're all different planets and none of them are the place where armies are actually battling.

More neutral stuff like the WAAAAAGH! points rule, though. I hope Games Workshop gives AoS players orky ructions.

# ¿ May 3, 2024 16:25

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

I think they said every unit can be reinforced this ed. Though, man, if they keep their current unit size that would be a terrifying amount of character sniping potential.

# ¿ May 6, 2024 14:24

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 23:33

The Bee: Nov 25, 2012; Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

I've seen some people theorize the jezzail is going down to 4+ base to compensate, but even then I think a jezzail unit seems like enough to eat most characters alive.

12 shots (13 if the unit champion gets another? There seems to be a double-barreled one in the video) wounding on 3s is already 8 shots to take into account.

If they hit on 4s base, that's 4 shots to make saves against. That's 5.33 shots when standing still, or if 3+ is their base accuracy. And if 3+ is base, that's 6.67 shots while standing still. A reinforced jezzail unit, or even just two regular jezzail squads flanking an Engineer, are going to mulch characters.

# ¿ May 6, 2024 15:06

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