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It is rather impressive how cars murdered Los Angeles multiple times over. I don't know if there has been one invention (I am including nukes) that skull hosed a civilization into the ground much as the voom voom.
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Aug 8, 2021 11:39
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Mayor Dave posted:Ride the bus, there are a bunch of routes down Hawthorne, burgerville is like a 5 minute walk from the streetcar stop too Portland has a Potemkin transportation system: Max lines usually don't go anywhere useful, the Streetcar goes around 10 miles an hour, and most buses come every half an hour at best. It isn't LA bad, but I think most people like its "concept" of a transportation system rather than the one that exists. Anyway, thankfully, it seems like most of the rest of the world is reversing course. Once you get out of North America (especially one country in particular), things usually get a lot better. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:07 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 8, 2021 23:58
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I would say it is much more about politics (if not political economy) than anything else, lovely drivers are simply the result of poor policy.
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Aug 9, 2021 02:47
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Goon Boots posted:Name every train You’re tempting fate
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Aug 9, 2021 06:16
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Yeah, if you have a chance to life outside the US, you get can get a pretty clear car culture is just an abusive relationship we have been simply gaslit into thinking it is workable. Before 1950, the US was pretty much like the rest of the world, you could walk to local stores or take a streetcar into town etc. It is only when you actually live somewhere else, you get a sense of much we actually hosed up. In at least Europe/Eurasia/Asia etc, you pretty much just still walk to a local store that is 5-10 minutes away and usually it has all the basics. If you need a larger store, usually there is one accessible by public transportation (depending on the country/city). Life is very doable without a car. (One thing is also there doesn't really need to be such a reliance on packaged food/frozen food/styrofoam tasting vegetables because you can simply eat it fresh.) At the end of the day, people are tied by their career/property/family to cars but it is more unfortunate circumstance than anything else. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 10:24 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 10:21
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I think they are starting to change it but in LA rail lines has no priority at street lights, so you literally have lumbering 3-4 car trains starting and stopping every few blocks. Also, Boxsters as with all sports cars need to be automatic. There is no other way to drive them.
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Aug 10, 2021 03:05
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The problem is really just at heart of the political system, those in power really don't care because car culture is both of the path of least resistance and lucrative while a real alternative would be probably pretty costly and disruptive because how screwed up the system actually is. Stroads, big-box stores, and a lack of investment aren't accidental. (That said at a certain point every c-spam thread leads back to itself.)
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Aug 11, 2021 00:56
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Anyway, cars aren’t necessary, they were simply forced to become nearly necessary.
Ardennes has issued a correction as of 04:02 on Aug 11, 2021 |
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Aug 11, 2021 03:33
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Junkozeyne posted:Having a brain so broken by car culture that your solution only consists of switching the engine that runs the beast Even before COVID, Chinese car sales were steadily dropping. Another thing about the Red Car, it was actually consolidated with the Yellow Cars into the MTA in 1958 and so for 3 years was a publically funded system until it was obliterated. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 08:03 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 07:53
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Electric cars also can almost be as bad as a hybrid electric car in terms of emissions depending on your location. Hell, I think in Poland it may actually be worse than a standard ICE. Just slowly shifting to electric cars will not do jack, especially if you are still building natural gas plants based on fracking. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 08:44 on Aug 12, 2021 |
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Aug 12, 2021 08:21
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As far as buses go, they work best when they are short-distance connectors to actual transit. BRT is an attempt to do rail on the cheap, but its capacity usually get saturated too easily and it usually has most of the issues of a bus unless it has a right of way. In Moscow, there are plenty of buses but usually they just connect metro stops together. Btw there is a difference between cars and car culture you can have a society where vehicles exist but it isn't the deciding element of every facet of life. Most more advanced states have figured this out. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 12:02 on Aug 13, 2021 |
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Aug 13, 2021 06:52
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brakeless posted:to be fair, the car-dependent hog is a universal western phenomenon, here in Finland recently a bunch drove past parliament beeping their horns to protest "the government punishing motorists" with like gas taxes and ??? in the most limp-dicked demonstration imaginable Admittedly, the gas tax in Finland works out to about 80 cents a liter, while in the US it is 4.5 cents. Also, greater Helsinki's transit system is pretty good at least. You can't really escape car culture, but I don't think it has busted anyone's brains as much as the US. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 11:29 on Aug 22, 2021 |
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Aug 22, 2021 11:24
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It isn’t so much that autonomous cars aren’t possible, it just isn’t really going to change squat especially since you will still need to have your hands on the wheel and there will never be any type of centralized control over them. In addition, that dream about them just cruising through intersections is never going to happen. At best, they are going to just allow drivers to daydream a lot more. (Also, as discussed earlier, the carbon efficiency of electric cars (largely due to production) is a lot less than one would think (it would take 60,000 miles for a Tesla 3 to match the efficiency of a Prius, and there is a good chance that Tesla wouldn't make it there)). There is no actual way to salvage car culture without almost all of its current drawbacks. Predictable enough, the only real solution is pretty much mass nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams and renewables with a multi-modal transit system. Private cars would be on a lottery system (and there would be a pretty severe taxes on anything but the most basic economy car/truck). Other countries are already moving in that direction. And yeah, municipally organized rental cars are already a thing. I know they are pretty popular in Moscow. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 00:41 on Aug 24, 2021 |
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Aug 23, 2021 22:11
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:the funny part of EV and autonomous cars is that even if you make those two things work perfectly they're still a loving catastrophe for a bunch of other different reasons anyway. I mean a bunch of proponents of autonomous cars are quite vocal about literally defunding public transit further since it would be "redundant."
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Aug 24, 2021 05:46
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Goast posted:sorry to dig up page 2, but what It avoid most residential areas if you ever have to use it. It is good fine on a map until you realize yeah, it just mostly follows right on ways that make it difficult to use. It is cheaper that way but also a lot more inconvenient. The Orange line is a good example, it mostly goes through semi industrial areas or rail yards until you get pretty much to the end of the line. The Green isn’t great either since it is in such a weird location along a freeway. The Yellow line hits some residential areas and then leads to a random expo center. Remember the ideal for transit is about being half a mile in walking distance to a stop and the MAX usually fails at this. Also, it is just painfully slow downtown which makes it using it as a way to travel through not into downtown really a chore and inefficient.
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Aug 28, 2021 16:01
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The Max is really inconvenient to use if you don’t live exactly on one of its right of ways (many of which are just in out of the way spots) and often it less useful than taking a bus unless you specifically are going to downtown from a couple select areas. Also, since it is so slow downtown it makes it a lot less useful to use it across the metro area. Looks good on paper but it has serious draw backs. Portland doesn’t have the worst system (well theoretically) but the fact that it has such low levels of service and it is so downtown centric really undermines it.
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Aug 28, 2021 16:54
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duomo posted:yeah, portland's transit mode share having been basically stagnant since 2000 despite multiple line openings is an indictment of the routings being built Yeah, the Green and Orange lines in particular really didn’t add much in ridership and if you know the city it makes a lot of sense since they service relatively marginal portions of largely suburban neighborhoods and generally just connect to the city center and have right of ways in middle of freeways/rail yards/golf courses. Also they hiked basic fares up to 2.50 a ride back in the early 2010s which really capped off ridership. Even today that is more expensive then a lot of cities that are significantly larger and with better service than Portland. Granted, the city has also has been ignoring biking infrastructure as well with only a handful of projects done here and there over the last few years. Portland still has been then average infrastructure in general but it has been phoning it in. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 03:12 on Aug 29, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2021 03:03
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Epic High Five posted:hmmm, okay you get a provisional membership, we'll upgrade you to full once you report back on your favorite aspect of the Moscow subway system I am legitimately excited upcoming large circle line in Moscow. By allowing you to anything close to the city center, it going to allow you to live anywhere in the city by making "longitudal" commuting much more possible. Also, the expansion of metro lines outside of MKAD and the Central Diameters system (sort of S-bahn-esque system) has made even the relative fringes of the city to be pretty accessible to rapid transit. Biking is also getting better in Moscow. I wouldn't call it a "bike city" at this point, but the large number of parks and quieter residential streets helps a lot along with improvements on major boulevards. A criticism of the Soviets, they honestly went in on huge boulevards in the 1960s/1970s in Moscow but in the last 5-6 years the city really seems to be recovering from it in some aspects. ------------------------------------ The US if anything is uniquely bad. Santiago has a better system than almost any US city at this point. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 20:25 on Sep 3, 2021 |
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Sep 3, 2021 20:13
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The zone system in London is gross and very clearly exists just to kick working people in the teeth. The same monthly pass that costs $30 in Moscow costs 400 pound in London.
Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:17 on Sep 11, 2021 |
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Sep 11, 2021 15:14
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Yeah, I don’t know why a Chicago to Philly route wouldn’t be the priority over Chicago to Minneapolis. Granted, it isn’t even that the US needs a true nation wide network, but we can’t even get a single real line up and running. The longer we wait, the harder it is going to get as well. It is also why the infrastructure bill is such a joke because it is only 569 billion of new spending over 8 years and there is barely any more transit or rail spending in it beyond the minimum.
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Sep 25, 2021 15:36
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LonsomeSon posted:connect the trams with a new tram in all cases, obviously Or you could always have little low-priced markets all over the place with actual edible food in them (think bodegas but useful). On weird things about the states, and car culture has to be part of it, is that convenience store just pretty much have junk food and booze in them. Also, American supermarkets are mostly nonsense and the actual food in them could be condensed into a place about 1/4th the size. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 12:27 on Sep 30, 2021 |
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Sep 30, 2021 12:12
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indigi posted:that’s called a grocery store. “super” markets are supposed to have more than just food That is the point, what could be accomplished by a super market could be done with a much smaller store if you took out most of the garbage. A store that is about 2-3 times a 7-11 is enough. IAMKOREA posted:i think that's more farm subsidy culture. gotta put all that processed corn and soybean "food" somewhere. of course it loops back to car culture since the people buying it are driving there with 15% or whatever ethanol in their gasoline. It’s car culture, cars allow you access to cheap land that you then turn into big boxes with huge parking lots. Farm subsidies just mean what you are eating is just a bunch of corn syrup and filler. Also, American food really tastes like nothing. It slaps you in the face when you leave the US but our food just doesn’t really taste like much and you need garlic, fat, sugar and salt because otherwise it is unpalatable. Our standard of living actually really isn’t that great when you get down to it.
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Sep 30, 2021 15:03
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Honestly, the prices nowadays at Costco aren’t worth it when you factor in the membership fees unless you really want to go nuts. There is only so much soap and toilet paper you are going to buy a year.
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Sep 30, 2021 19:28
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lil poopendorfer posted:it's $5/month Honestly, I never thought the produce was great. Otherwise yeah, you have to buy giant cans of tomato sauce to make it worth it because you aren’t going to really save on electronics, meat, liquor etc. Admittedly, It depends on the person but the last time I was there I was really struggling to find much that was substantially cheaper without buying a huge portion that is going to be wasted or take up too much space. If you are going to eat a 25 pound bag of rice, it is different but a 60 dollar members up ply the sheer hassle of it, eh pass. (Also, there are random things like glasses frames that can be cheaper, but if you don’t need them, what do you got...giant bags of beef jerky?) I much rather shop locally, and not feel like I got to eat more of x because someone has to. cool av posted:requiring transit lines to be buried, while sure it would be nice, is bread and butter for koch-sponsored poison pill astroturf "concerned community member" bullshit, and if you are suggesting it you should at least be aware of that The best scenario is having tram lines feeding into more central metro lines. I liked Helsinki in particular has both a large s bahn system together with a small metro system and it works. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 06:58 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 06:43
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LA could have easily kept most of its streetcar system, made the metrolink an S Bahn system, and spent the rest of the money on metro expansion. Helsinki found a way to make it work (and so did Melbourne and St.Pete). Anyway, it isn’t cars themselves that are the issue (they do kind of suck but there are was to control them) but maniacs during the mid-20 century who lost their minds over them and bulldozed cities to make them barely livable. All of this was a choice. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 13:19 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 13:10
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vyelkin posted:everybody loves to blame Robert Moses for all this but I think that's very America-centric and we should also blame Le Corbusier Admittedly, it was more than Robert Moses, it was a group effort but I think Le Coubusier was a long time in coming though. St.Pete is good, just needs quite a bit more funding. It is very obviously still the step child to Moscow. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 13:28 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 13:24
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vyelkin posted:it's been a while since I read my urban theory but I am pretty sure that Le Corbusier was the first prominent architect/urban thinker to propose a city where all the city's functions are separated from each other by huge distances and everyone gets in their car and drives to work on enormous highways and then after work they drive to whatever restaurant or shop they want on different giant highways and then when that's finished they drive back to their home on a third giant highway My take was he was into massive brutalist projects, but there would still be some type of public transportation connecting them. He wanted to eradicate the then current urban landscape and pretty much have people living in massive skyscrapers connected with skybridges. I would say at least the trend to massive brutalist buildings was going to happen with new construction techniques. It was a terrible plan and helped inspired poor decisions, but Moses specifically was more of a car zealot. That said, I think that entire generation of planning should be condemned. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 14:15 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 14:00
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indigi posted:arcologies are gonna own if we don’t destroy ourselves before we start making them I mean it may simply happen because of climate change but looking at Dubai...it would actually kind of suck to live there. (I mean you would be pretty much living inside giant shopping mall/condo tower). That said, we do live in a dystopia so why not.
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Oct 1, 2021 14:10
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I am okay with this being the urban planning thread, the other one kind of ran out of gas. That said, as much as Brazilia sucks, I would still prefer it to the typical American suburb. At least some type of urban life is possible even if it is regimented and still very car centric. The Soviets were able to take some of those ideas and make them kind of work by actually putting in green space and local amenities coupled with more robust public transportation. Obviously, cars still did their damage. (There is an argument to be made about Singapore as well). Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:30 on Oct 1, 2021 |
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Oct 1, 2021 15:06
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How about the Grover approach and ban everything except cars and use the money saved to buy even more cars?
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Oct 9, 2021 17:11
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The L is a okay commuter system along with Metra but to be honest, it is pretty seriously flawed as a modern transit system, not only it is impossible to transfer outside of the loop/downtown but it is also just antiquated and can be aggravatingly slow depending on the line. It makes sense considering parts of it were built in the 19th century. The real issue is, that despite the obvious need for investment, it just doesn't happen and probably won't because it would actually take Illinois investing billions. I would say though that is pretty typical of most legacy systems in the US (Chicago/New York/Philadelphia/Boston), they provide some decent coverage since they were mostly already built out by the 1960s, but just kind of get forgotten about except for a drip of investment here and there usually since neither state governments or the fed really give a rats rear end. Still beats light rail Ardennes has issued a correction as of 22:07 on Oct 11, 2021 |
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Oct 11, 2021 22:03
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Polo-Rican posted:yeah everyone assumes that when people say "i hate cars," they mean "replace cars with trains." that's part of the solution, but the real solution is just building better communities so that more people can go to the bank, get groceries, and pick up a burrito on foot without needing to worry about vehicles at all You really need trains to do that though, the primary way to create a walkable community is to make the local station the hub of area. Otherwise, you end with ersatz condominium projects that may have a couple businesses that are rarely frequented because everyone is just using cars to do everything (LA). Also, light rail isn't going to get there because most systems are clearly less efficient than taking a car.
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Oct 12, 2021 11:19
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To be honest, the infrastructure bill has such a high amount of road versus public transit funding, it is probably going to make things worse. That said, the good news is that trying to expand freeways at this point is so costly that the effect will be lessened.
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Oct 14, 2021 09:48
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I mean if you want the pie in the sky take, the US could: 1. Treat public transportation as a public service and forget about farebox returns. From an economic perspective, efficiency of moving workers is far more important that having to chip in a subsidy. 2. Rebuild its existing legacy systems in the West and the East coast and this time actually investment in them 3. Stop building only light rail, especially at grade or awkward locations, and devote the building to building core heavy rail lines with light rail/BRT acting as feeder lines 4. Nationalize and electrify any freight lines near urban centers, turn them into rapid S-bahns (a lot of agencies actually own their own lines but don't have the funding to do much with them, run the freight at night). 5. Eventually ban cars in CBDs and gradually expand outwards 6. Get rid of "beg boxes" and build non-gutter bike lanes etc It is never ever going to happen though. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:36 on Oct 15, 2021 |
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Oct 15, 2021 15:21
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Getting rid of cars and Obama‘a deregulation of methane..sorry fracking, wouldn’t solve climate change, but it could give mankind a fighting chance.
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Oct 27, 2021 10:34
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lobster shirt posted:incredible that she calls teh petty bourg small business owners "working people" dsa is so goddamn useless I would say quite the opposite, they are doing their job as intended.
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Oct 27, 2021 12:37
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pointsofdata posted:it's been known you can fix it for ages, if we aren't doing it now, when will we? Where is this btw?
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Nov 5, 2021 12:47
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I would say the issue here is trying to find something to actually be able to take on buses/the metro.
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Nov 10, 2021 11:24
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Filthy Hans posted:babby's first moped I am seeing e-mopeds all over the place; they seem to be a efficient, especially for delivery work.
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Nov 12, 2021 08:52
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mawarannahr posted:the original recipe for a frappé calls for instant coffee and was invented by leisurely Greeks who love to hang around the house, so this is the authentic experience compared to the American bastardization. Granted, it evolved to sitting in cafes and ordering it then sitting around all day because no one has any jobs or hope of one.
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Nov 14, 2021 22:34
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