|
Nix Panicus posted:This post is an example of the largest problem facing D&D. The guy thinks they're being persecuted by gangstalkers because someone made fun of the dumb thing they said. Making fun of the dumb things people say is a core SA value. Many of D&D's posters have this bunker mentality where they are under constant assault from the laughing hyenas who do not respect their obviously correct worldview. Anyone who disagrees is an unserious troll posting in bad faith. Arguments can be easily dismissed with no effort as childish fantasies that don't bear engaging with. Only *serious* people, who believe *serious* things, should be allowed to speak in this *serious* holy place and everyone else is a defiler. It leads to mods policing the argument itself rather than the posters making the argument. Uncomfortable topics get siloed off to wither and smug posts on the 'right' side of an argument are ignored while the 'wrong' side gets smacked, because obviously the only reason anyone would hold a 'wrong' belief is to harass and troll as a mega-lurker, seconding all of this.
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 05:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 06:44 |
|
|
Valor posted:I've been reading D&D for 15 years and at this point have entirely written off the forum because right now the atmosphere is worse than probably any other time in SA, mostly due to how worthless the admin staff is. This 1000x. The people whose main point in this thread is to scream about their view that D&D is a place where only the democrat party line is tolerated are the ones that continually poo poo up the uspol related threads. The vast majority of posters I see in D&D are more than willing to agree and admit that the democrat party is terrible. The issue is when they put a "but" after that admission and then try to engage in a good faith debate about what can be done within the framework of the democrats sucking they get dogpiled by the aforementioned insane brain poisoned dipshits for supporting democrats when they are actually doing nothing of the sort. These posters don't engage in good faith and accuse people of things like being xenophobic because they don't take the CCP line at face value or being rape supporters because they said one good thing about Biden on one specific issue and it of course sets off a 10 page derail slapfight because who isn't going to react to being accused of being a rape supporter when they so obviously are not? Mods (infrequently) step in and now all these broke brains are accusing them of enforcing the democrat party line when it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with them needing to log the gently caress off. Good faith debate is impossible in an environment where these idiots are tolerated. I nominate Valor as a mod because they get it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 06:14
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Good faith debate is impossible in an environment where these idiots are tolerated. Good faith = "equal to my opinion". I know what "good faith" is supposed to mean, but it's actually mostly used as the equivalent to "not wrongthink". If your opinion isn't mine, there must be something wrong with it, so your argument is not a "good faith" one. Also quote:democrat leadership This is as asinine as "Micro$oft".
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 06:29
|
|
|
Hi, I'm mainly a D&D lurker, but I will occasionally post here. The issues I have with the current state of D&D all revolve around the bloodthirstiness that has seeped into every nook and cranny. I can't tell you who said it, but there was some quote by a Democratic politician here in the United States about how Democrats eat their own, and it's true. Combined with the megathread mentality that has been sweeping the Something Awful Forums for years now, we've got people for whom politics is absurdly personal trying to 'win' arguments by forcing someone else out. To make this political (and let me preface this by saying I voted for Bernie Sanders in the 2016 Democratic primary), a main pain I have is that a large swath of posting has revolved around trying to out-flank other posters' positions from the left. I'm not saying the mods should all be moderates, but we need people who value making good (read: effort-filed and/or humorous) posts and rule-following. After all, it is not a right to post on the Something Awful Forums, but a privilege you pay  for.James Garfield is my nominee for mod, because that Goon is level-headed even in the most heated of threads.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 06:31
|
|
|
Yeah make the rereg a mod, what could go wrong
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 08:36
|
|
|
Alright, I want to give everyone a chance to respond, but also don't want dumb arguments to drown out people, so: Everyone gets ONE more post in this thread. I'll close this thread around 11pm EDT (8pm PST, 4am BST). If you want to wait for the last hours of the day to get your post in and quote the people you hate, you do you. Fuckin up this rule will get your probe timer set to 2021-09-10 12:12:12. Just some house keeping things you can choose to yell at me for in your post: So far I have a bunch of names you all have given me here and PMs. (I've read all the PMs, just not responded yet, sorry. I will respond to them all eventually, I promise. Quick count looks like I've gotten about 60 PMs from 45 different folks) Some of the cut downs I will do are people who have already declined, people who are alts of Seraph, and people who don't contribute to D&D. I understand the want for "neutral outsiders," but I don't think someone who isn't involved in a community should be a mod who represents it. I DO think there is an idea there, but as an admin when things are brought to me I can only read what I can and sometimes it's hard to have context, so making a mod do that every day in here I'm not sure it would work. I also understand that the answer may not be "more mods" and there are other issues, but putting the weight of dealing with things on fewer people sucks, so I'm going to add more even if that is not the end all be all solution to issues. I saw the D&D mods discussing when to put the Feedback thread up, and figuring out availability for them to be there and answer stuff, so I assume that is coming soon. They also are reading this, so the small feedback so far is known. I don't have an ETA for you. I think that's about everything? Pathfinder is pretty good if you like those kind of games. I'm going to be mostly out fishing today (fantastic outside here), so I'll check in when I can if there are any direct questions for me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:35
|
|
|
Ytlaya and joepinetree should be mods.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:39
|
|
|
I think someone edited a previous post, but I"m going to use my last post to reply to something that brought up constantly, the idea that there is an evil cabal of D&D posters who are maxing out their reports every day and are constantly PMing Jeff in Discord. Where did this come from? Literally a parody post by the Jeffery of YOSPOS account. Jeffery of YOSPOS posted:Look, nobody's closing this thread, and it doesn't need to be made in FYAD (and they probably wouldn't have you anyway). The fact of the matter is that I have never been part of a US politics discord, never want to be, and it stretches my sanity to the point of breaking when they PM me on discord, sometimes multiple times a day, because someone blind quoted one of their posts here. So could you just work with me here, for once? I don't want to hear about the succ zone anymore, and I want to hear from the USPOL posters even less, so if you could just keep not touching the poop that would be great. For my part, I will try to make the situation better by rotating out some CSPAM mods. I was going to hold back this announcement until later but today's events have forced my hand. But because people lack basic reading skills this has become accepted fact and is repeated in every loving QCS thread about D&D. Stop judging forums based on stupid goon rumors and stupid clique bullshit. Athanatos posted:I also understand that the answer may not be "more mods" and there are other issues, but putting the weight of dealing with things on fewer people sucks, so I'm going to add more even if that is not the end all be all solution to issues. I saw the D&D mods discussing when to put the Feedback thread up, and figuring out availability for them to be there and answer stuff, so I assume that is coming soon. They also are reading this, so the small feedback so far is known. I don't have an ETA for you. Here's serious advice: 1. Do not appoint anyone that wants to be a mod. 2. Do not appoint anyone nominated in this thread. 3. Before you appoint anyone, read the forum for several weeks and make your own judgements. And advice to everyone: 4. If you spend more than ten minutes a week reading things to make yourself angry you need to log off and desperately find a better use of your time. fool of sound posted:To be clear, there are users who frequently max out their daily reports spamming a single thread/single user in D&D. This phenomenon is not limited to particular cliques or political persuasions, the last two instances of it we've had were from two very different types of posters. Ban these people for their own good. Valor fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
Please consider the character and moral fiber of whom you give buttons to. Several people named in this thread, including some of the most popular candidates, are devoted to using slurs and exploiting stigmas to win arguments, calling those who disagree with them “psychos,” “broken brained,” making appeals to sanity, and so on. ( The same people who call another forum here a den of slurs.) Do these incorrigible ableists represent D&D? You decide, because we’re not doing the one thing we all love so much here - voting.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:51
|
|
|
To be clear, there are users who frequently max out their daily reports spamming a single thread/single user in D&D. This phenomenon is not limited to particular cliques or political persuasions, the last two instances of it we've had were from two very different types of posters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
I just have two things to add in this, my final post.Valor posted:I think someone edited a previous post, but I"m going to use my last post to reply to something that brought up constantly, the idea that there is an evil cabal of D&D posters who are maxing out their reports every day and are constantly PMing Jeff in Discord. Where did this come from? Who are you a rereg of? I'd rather see thread- and forum-banned users posting here honestly than some weirdo on an account registered two months ago. Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:This is as asinine as "Micro$oft". It's going to sound like I'm joking or shitposting here but I'm being 100% earnest: D&D is a completely lost cause for as long as its posters ever-so-consistently melt down upon seeing the words "democrat party".
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
Valor posted:Here's serious advice: sums it up pretty well
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
Whoever you choose, you should probably make sure they aren't a pedo. Not a great track record there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
Nothing much to say here, just wanted to arrive here at the Posting Oscars, wondering who's going to win Best
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:03
|
|
|
Replying one last time to also note that in addition to joepinetree, Willa would be a good mod. Ytayla would have been a good pick years ago, but I think he is too controversial at this point.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
1337JiveTurkey posted:When it comes to what's forbidden in D&D the main things in comparison to C-SPAM are slurs, advocating political violence and genocide denial. That's what C-SPAM has fought for and like hell anyone should ever forget it. Nothing to add except that this guy should be d&d mod
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
MooselanderII posted:Replying one last time to also note that in addition to joepinetree, Willa would be a good mod. Ytayla would have been a good pick years ago, but I think he is too controversial at this point. I hope the admins will make sound decisions. These are likely the only sane choices as everybody who has chosen various mods is due to them wanting forums enemies punished not out of any real concern for the long-term health of D&D.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
500 good dogs posted:
Whoever is given the punishment to mod D&D should have their forum name changed to "democrat party chairman".
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
One concern that’s been repeated here a number of times is the idea that liberals are shutting out leftist arguments via a combination of dogpiling and biased moderation. In my view (outside both camps) this seems like a repeat of the same process that forced out anyone to the right a number of years ago. I feel like much of the current abrasive culture has its roots in those days (early RG), and it’s worth noting that many leftists carried water for that process because their political enemies were on the receiving end at the time. So my mostly rhetorical question is, would those on the left making the case for more permissive and objective moderation accept an influx of more right-of-center posters and arguments along the way? Obviously forum rules wrt explicit racism and sexism should be enforced, but the end result of the current path is increasingly narrow boundaries on acceptable debate. Which is fine if you’re the smaller and smaller “correct opinion” camp, but is poisonous for the long term health of the forum. Thanks for opening this thread and running it objectively.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
I am not sure that anyone who has a vindictive fanclub should be a mod. I don't know what the right answer is. I've read this forum for 17 years and it has always been a contentious place. Its really helped me develop my understanding of the world and provided a place of diverse, sometimes colorful, opinions. Let D&D be obnoxious, but not without argument or purpose. People can argue with obnoxious. What they can't argue with is pointless grudge's, permanent labels, and pointless posts about the poster instead of the topics at hand. USPol is supposed to be a bit of a dumpster fire with frequent derails. Let it be what it naturally is while pruning the worst offenders with prejudice. Also make the report button probate the person who submits the report. This also requires the mods to not let a poo poo poster linger. I've used it once it twice in my time on these forums and it should not be something anyone is spamming. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
Undo the forum and thread bans given out by Handsome Ralph and Herstory, and demod Ralph. VitalSigns was one of the most informative posters in USNews and should be allowed to post there. I think you should, for once, actually take power away from a lovely mod when users request it before they defend questionable cartoon porn or otherwise melt down in spectacular fashion. Seriously, just try it once, there is no downside. I absolutely do not understand the insistence to hang onto bad mods no matter what. Who asked that guy to be a mod in the first place? Did he volunteer himself? How many users recommended him? I don't remember even seeing him post on the forums before he was made an IK, it's bizarre. Other than that, I hope you can recognize which posters were recommended as a joke and not burden D&D with another completely terrible mod. Willa would be good. I also think the apparent need to appeal for authority to get rid of their enemies is indicative of a fascist quality in the liberal middle classes. The constant cry for mommy moderators to ban the mean posters for disagreeing with them is loving pathetic, though admittedly it is also pretty funny. fart_man_69 fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Is there any subforum with as many forum bans as D&D? If not, maybe consider that they’re being abused by capricious D&D mods to enforce groupthink and why you’ve ended up with a forum with ever-dwindling regulars who will max out reports if they see the phrase “democrat party.”
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
I would like to echo the calls to demod Ralph and reverse any forum bans instituted by him. He has been absolutely terrible for the forum, and others have already summed up why better than I could. Willa should be a mod, if that is something she would want.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:08
|
|
|
fool of sound posted:To be clear, there are users who frequently max out their daily reports spamming a single thread/single user in D&D. This phenomenon is not limited to particular cliques or political persuasions, the last two instances of it we've had were from two very different types of posters. I think in 16 years on these forums (ugh) I’ve reported maybe 1 post. Even the worst posts on SA tend not to be that bad; just keep scrolling. It would probably make being a mod a much more attractive position, while presenting a much more reasonable workload for a volunteer position, if these people were just permabanned. They are either abusing the report function out of vindictiveness (harmful to the community) or are really so thin-skinned that they really shouldn’t be on the internet anyways (harmful to themselves).
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:This post is an example of the largest problem facing D&D. The guy thinks they're being persecuted by gangstalkers because someone made fun of the dumb thing they said. Making fun of the dumb things people say is a core SA value. Many of D&D's posters have this bunker mentality where they are under constant assault from the laughing hyenas who do not respect their obviously correct worldview. Anyone who disagrees is an unserious troll posting in bad faith. Arguments can be easily dismissed with no effort as childish fantasies that don't bear engaging with. Only *serious* people, who believe *serious* things, should be allowed to speak in this *serious* holy place and everyone else is a defiler. It leads to mods policing the argument itself rather than the posters making the argument. Uncomfortable topics get siloed off to wither and smug posts on the 'right' side of an argument are ignored while the 'wrong' side gets smacked, because obviously the only reason anyone would hold a 'wrong' belief is to harass and troll I've been lurking this forum since 2007 or so. I've never posted much in here: at first, because I felt I didn't have a whole lot to contribute. Recently; however, it has more to do with this forum increasing succumbing to a toxic insularity. IMO, this pretty much dates to 2016 at the latest, and is a reflection of the growing disconnects in society-at-large(and within the US political ecosystem). Most posters here seem to believe certain things about politics and policy and have become increasingly hostile to those who believe otherwise, and D&D all too often seems to be moderated along these lines. There's really only a few primary threads here, so I don't think splitting most things off is helpful, because those threads don't tend to go anywhere. Meanwhile, largely or entirely irrelevant tangents about food and McDonald's ice cream machines(to take the most recent example that comes to mind) tend to be allowed to go on for quite a while(and the latter actually got heated). I actually did try to switch to C-SPAM, but it's really not any less toxic or insular, IMO, so I wound up sticking with the toxicity I know. I'm a creature of habit, I suppose. I, personally, am pretty pessimistic that there's any workable solution to this problem. Something Awful isn't free of our increasingly decaying and rancorous political reality, and there is no one who could moderate this forum without a hint of political biases. The best course of action has already been laid out better than I ever could. Oh, and 100% second no one from this forum(or C-SPAM, for that matter) should be an admin.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
All of you who mentioned me, thanks. But I don't want to be a mod. Not in a reverse psychology type of way, but for real. D&D already has the ideal mod, ardennes. If anything, he should be the only mod. "Ah, but he never probates anyone." Exactly. The number of "posts that should be probated but weren't" is minuscule compared to the number of "posts that shouldn't be probated but were." Perhaps if moderation didn't indulge the type of person who maxes out reports and creates "emergency" threads in QCS, that sort of thing would stop, and real problems like rape apologia could actually be addressed in time rather than allowed to fester for months.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
thehandtruck posted:i have a few stupid ideas One thing I think this idea kind of shuts off that D&D is good at (or has been good at in the past) is when you get jokes and informative posts that are specific to knowledge about the thread’s topic or to the thread itself. I don’t read USNEWS at all but if that mod came over and tried to judge what is informative/relevant/funny in CanPol they’d likely be completely loving lost. And part of what makes talking politics on SA fun and good when it works is talking with other people who already know the score and can get why saying “O’Toole is going to punch Trudeau so hard he’ll fall down the stairs” is a joke and not just tribalism. Thanks for listening. e: canpol needs a mod since no one has cared since Helsing left, Dreylad just got a blue star and would be a good thread mod/IK imo Arivia fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
The problem with D+D is not that bad moderators have been picked, although certainly some have been better than others. The problem is that the process of moderating D+D takes otherwise healthy people and makes them believe UTTERLY monstrous poo poo in the name of owning their posting nemeses. Vendettas develop, because of course they do, but in D+D alone it is necessary to pretend that the reason for prosecuting a vendetta is part of a higher, noble, political point, as opposed to just, y'know, gently caress that guy. This process of public justification results in moderators staking out INCREDIBLY contentious ideological positions ('these forums should rationally discuss "the whore's just making it up for money," "calling them concentration camps is bullying now," "people are just claiming they support rape victims as a cudgel"), which understandably lead to more heated objections, which lead to more vendettas, and ultimately an embarrassing doom spiral. D+D cannot be a place for liberals to blow off steam about the news and a place for open debate at the same time, it has been attempting to be both, and the attempts to resolve this contradiction have absolutely wrecked its userbase and moderation staff both. Shaking up the people in charge is only going to reset the timer until the next time this same dumb poo poo happens.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:D+D cannot be a place for liberals to blow off steam about the news and a place for open debate at the same time, it has been attempting to be both, and the attempts to resolve this contradiction have absolutely wrecked its userbase and moderation staff both. Shaking up the people in charge is only going to reset the timer until the next time this same dumb poo poo happens.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
I think part of the issue is that in DnD every probe seemingly needs to be breaking some codified objective rule instead of just probing people for posting like an rear end in a top hat. So we get into these situations where probes start getting handed out for reasons that when looked at with a pair of outside eyes look a little silly, because the mods end up chasing people down semantic rabbit holes as they try to play "I'm not touching you" with the rules in order to continue posting like assholes. This is because good forbid they make a subjective judgement about "hey this person is posting like an rear end in a top hat" there's a QCS thread and who wants to deal with that every day? Especially when there's a perception that the admin team won't back them up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:47
|
|
|
Originally PM'd but I'll post it here since the thread was opened again. I mostly post/lurk in the region specific threads in d&d (canada, new zealand, germany/europe) because they're the only ones I feel I can learn something new or useful. Anything which touches American politics or foreign policy is unreadable here, as there seems to be a tension between mods trying to enforce a specific political line and people who disagree with the line constantly crossing it and eating probations. I think d&d should either be explicit about what it is so that people who post there are forewarned instead of pointlessly eating punishments, or dissenting opinions should be given more leeway and moderators forced to apply a light touch. Either a) drop the "debate" part of debate and discussion and be honest about it, or b) actually try to be that. If you're going to do the former, CSPAM already exists. The latter is probably harder since online is just a reflection of reality, where politics have gotten more sharply polarized (for good material reasons) in the last couple of decades, but if you're not going to do that it calls into question why this forum even exists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
the 2016 lover posted:Is there any subforum with as many forum bans as D&D? If not, maybe consider that they’re being abused by capricious D&D mods to enforce groupthink and why you’ve ended up with a forum with ever-dwindling regulars who will max out reports if they see the phrase “democrat party.” It's honestly truly wild since in other subforums, forum bans tend to only be done as a last resort. But around here it seems to happen to multiple people on a weekly basis and only serves to make the place more and more insular. If someone's posting is truly that heinous (and based on a lot of D&D forum bans I would generally disagree with that notion!) they can get a ban + 30 for bad posts (if they are actually bad enough to warrant it, that is!).
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
The largest issue facing D&D is that the the political subforums, and to a degree the forums as a whole, lack adequately enforced, consistent moderation. This is principally due to a lack of admin support for stronger punishments, which has resulted in a level of harassment and subversion of moderation that makes the role profoundly unappealing. That so many users are declining the role, that the role has such a poor reputation, should be telling. That so many forumbanned users are suddenly appearing, making an abrupt change of tone, and suggesting their friends, should also be telling. Their underlying goals are to make moderation impossible or to take control of moderation, so that they are free to further abuse other users.Very few of the nominations that have been made in this thread were made with an eye toward improving moderation. I can't suggest names for moderators under these circumstances because it would just paint a target on their backs. As long as moderation is viewed as thankless and futile, as long as a culture of abuse is tolerated, the situation will not improve. You need to talk to the current moderators about why they are unable to get people to mod the forum, and what changes in support they need from you so that the act of moderation is no longer a miserable, emotionally draining one. You're going to have to account for the fact that the current moderation team seem to have already internalized this abuse as well. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
For who to moderate: Agree with "do not appoint anyone nominated in this thread." If someone is enough of a "name" in D&D to be nominated here, they are more likely than not too involved in D&D for people to have confidence in them as anything close to an impartial moderator. Also, many people appear to have been nominated based on ideological alignment, etc., rather than ability or temperament to do the job. I suggest finding someone who has been around a while, doesn't have a long recent rap sheet, reads more than posts, and when they post seem capable of insight and generally not being an rear end in a top hat. Ideally, someone capable of seeing nuance, admitting when they're wrong, and acknowledging that someone can often have different political views without being a troll or a monster.Athanatos posted:I understand the want for "neutral outsiders," but I don't think someone who isn't involved in a community should be a mod who represents it. I DO think there is an idea there, but as an admin when things are brought to me I can only read what I can and sometimes it's hard to have context, so making a mod do that every day in here I'm not sure it would work. For the reasons above, among others, while I don't think it should necessarily be a rank outsider, as in someone who never reads or posts in D&D, I think it is worth rethinking this a bit--it's not really a matter of "representing" the forum; the forum is too divided on what they want anyway for a single person to represent it, as shown by this thread. What matters is establishing a vision for D&D (my thoughts on that are below) and then having moderators who consistently apply it. As for getting the context, it should probably be someone who is at least interested in reading D&D, but I'm not sure it has to be someone who is a particularly prolific poster in order to do that. Also, several people earlier in the thread have mentioned examples of moderators who make moderation decisions based on disagreement with them (at least perceived--not weighing in on whether it actually happens, but the perception is enough to undermine confidence), or the dampening effect of having someone with a star commenting in a thread. This seems like something that really shouldn't be that controversial--if someone is moderating a debate, they shouldn't be participating in it (given that this is the "Debate" forum; this isn't necessarily true in other forums). This doesn't mean moderators shouldn't post in D&D at all, but maybe divide the threads up among the moderators? For what D&D should be: I think D&D should be the effort-post and ideally lower-toxicity forum (which probably means more extensive rules and moderation than other forums with political threads). SA has multiple options for low-effort posting, and the world in general (Twitter, Facebook, comments sections, etc.) has numerous options to do low-effort rage-posting. I'm not sure I see the value in having D&D as a separate forum if the rules are the same--C-Spam already exists, GBS already exists, etc.--and I also don't think that some attempt at a "compromise" version is likely to work either; I think D&D needs a clearly distinct posting culture and set of rules. Maybe set aside a few general discussion threads with relaxed rules if necessary. And while I understand many of the topics discussed in D&D are emotive topics, most of the userbase is now in its 30s or 40s--there's generally no need to coddle anyone's inability to have a civil discussion. Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 19:55
|
|
|
One post? drat, man. What I see when I read this thread is a complete disconnect between the two sides. Like, when people say "you get probed for leftist viewpoints in D&D! It's a Democrat echo chamber!"... I just don't see it, dudes. Willa Rogers has 14 pages of posts in USNews, and yes, she's eaten a few probes, but so have I. So have plenty of "liberal" posters. I've seen the kind of poo poo Willa was subjected to when evilweasel was a mod, and it's bullshit, but that is not what's going on these days. I mean are you going to tell me that Epic High Five!, Jaxyon, Failed Imagineer... god, I could go on and on, you're going to tell me that those aren't leftist posters? Because they seem pretty welcome in D&D to me. Because they're relatively civil, even if we all get heated sometimes. If anything, the problem is that there are too many probations in D&D in general, not that they go to the wrong people. It's also not hard at all to find posts from liberal posters that are harshly critical of Democrats. Some posters have put a huge emphasis on things that happened months or even years ago. "Rape apologia" (actual, not imagined) was limited to a few posts which were punished harshly. The "concentration camp" thing was stupid, but as I recall the most egregious of those probes was made by the_steve, possibly in a misunderstanding of actual mod policy. Saying "Democrat party" is usually intentionally trolling, albeit in a rather inconsequential way, and is rarely probed anyway. And whatever you think of these "controversies"... they represent a very small part of both the discussion and moderation that happens in D&D. And yet they're all that certain posters are talking about. Where is the resistance to leftist viewpoints in D&D? They are not met with the same derision that liberal policies are in the other subforum. Nobody ever says "M4A? Get out of here, you loony lefty  ". They say, "I don't think that's going to pass and there are other policies that can be helpful," which is then treated like some brain-dead exhalation of the status quo. It really is a funhouse mirror image of the disagreements between the right and left in the country generally. Granted, those disagreements are about consequential matters, and not "how fair is it that Yeowch!!! My Balls can't post in a subforum" or "to what extent is How r u trolling" and "am I allowed to criticize Democrats in a given space on an archaic web 1.0 bulletin board", but there's the same level of disconnect. I simply can't see the board that these posters are describing. It rings incredibly false to me - but I wouldn't necessarily accuse those posters of "lying". As a source of problems, disagreement on policy runs a distant second to the lack of a shared reality. Seriously, admins, please, please, please, just read the forum. Handsome Ralph has gotten a lot of poo poo so I want to say that he's a good mod and I don't think he should be removed. As for new mods, anybody but me (it's not even just a matter of "I don't want to," I honestly think I would be terrible at it.) I would also eliminate from consideration anybody who couldn't follow Athanatos's very simple directives as to who should post in this thread and when, and also anybody who frequently expresses disdain for D&D elsewhere on the forums. Read the forum! Just read it! Hundreds of posters and likely thousands of lurkers actually enjoy reading D&D so it's weird that the admins insist that the only way to understand what's going on here is through threads like this. Read it!
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 20:11
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:The largest issue facing D&D is that the the political subforums, and to a degree the forums as a whole, lack adequately enforced, consistent moderation. This is principally due to a lack of admin support for stronger punishments, which has resulted in a level of harassment and subversion of moderation that makes the role profoundly unappealing. That so many users are declining the role, that the role has such a poor reputation, should be telling. That so many forumbanned users are suddenly appearing, making an abrupt change of tone, and suggesting their friends, should also be telling. Very few of the nominations that have been made in this thread were made with an eye toward improving moderation. Their underlying goals are to make moderation impossible or to take control of moderation, so that they are free to further abuse other users. Yes, the issue is definitely that people aren’t showing adequate respect to people who have repeatedly proven they deserve none. The sheer number of forum and thread banned users, and former posters who are no longer regulars, who are now appearing is purely a sign of malicious outside interference and certainly NOT a reflection of moderation being awful and actively driving away participation and any pretense of debate or discussion. Giving moderators of the forum most noted for its frequency of threadbans and probations the power to level even harsher punishments will certainly do nothing but encourage respect, good feelings, and greater participation. In all seriousness: I don’t pretend I know how to unfuck things, so good luck. It’s exceptionally hard to fix a toxic environment by iterating on what the people who have created and thrived in it think should be done. The only real specific advice is that, regardless of whoever ultimately mods D&D, it pretty clearly shouldn’t be Ralph. E: Oh, and let derails run their natural course unless they’re truly catastrophic. It’s a natural consequence of people discussing things and generally resolves itself quickly, moderating it away just leads to artificial curtailment of conversation *in general*, which is bad for the health of a forum. So really just 100% agreement with that Nix Panicus post. LGD fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
Nix Panicus posted:This post is an example of the largest problem facing D&D. The guy thinks they're being persecuted by gangstalkers because someone made fun of the dumb thing they said. Making fun of the dumb things people say is a core SA value. Many of D&D's posters have this bunker mentality where they are under constant assault from the laughing hyenas who do not respect their obviously correct worldview. Anyone who disagrees is an unserious troll posting in bad faith. Arguments can be easily dismissed with no effort as childish fantasies that don't bear engaging with. Only *serious* people, who believe *serious* things, should be allowed to speak in this *serious* holy place and everyone else is a defiler. It leads to mods policing the argument itself rather than the posters making the argument. Uncomfortable topics get siloed off to wither and smug posts on the 'right' side of an argument are ignored while the 'wrong' side gets smacked, because obviously the only reason anyone would hold a 'wrong' belief is to harass and troll As a guy that mostly only lurked here this sums up my thoughts on the direction things have been going in.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 20:29
|
|
|
Valor posted:I think someone edited a previous post, but I"m going to use my last post to reply to something that brought up constantly, the idea that there is an evil cabal of D&D posters who are maxing out their reports every day and are constantly PMing Jeff in Discord. Where did this come from? There are definitely people who max out their daily reports on D&D posts on a regular basis. Not all of them are D&D regulars, there's a fair few people who don't actually post here but seem to hateread it anyway. Hell, there were even a couple of people who didn't even post on SA at all anymore, but still showed up in the reports on a regular basis. I'd say that just about every group, faction, or clique that has Any Opinion At All about D&D has at least one or two people who very clearly use the Report button as a method of venting. It doesn't really have any particular impact on moderation, because the username of the reporter shows up right in the report list, so the mods know at first glance when one of the regulars is making their daily contribution. It's mildly inconvenient at most, since the report system really isn't built for processing 50+ reports at a time - and it's probably never going to be, because the two politics forums see more reports in a day than the entire rest of the forums combined. Which is part of why the admins can't just keep treating them like the rest of the forums, where mods are treated as community representatives who can do basically whatever the gently caress they want. Just look at this thread - the community here, such as it is, is deeply divided. There's no one who can represent the community here, and no single person who can be acceptable to the majority of people here. And I wouldn't recommend the "pick people from each group and hope they cancel each other out" approach, we tried that a couple times with IKs and it worked extremely poorly. 500 good dogs posted:It's going to sound like I'm joking or shitposting here but I'm being 100% earnest: D&D is a completely lost cause for as long as its posters ever-so-consistently melt down upon seeing the words "democrat party". This whole "DEMOCRAT PARTY" stuff is utterly asinine on both sides. The entire poo poo is loving stupid. Burning the Dems by leaving a couple of letters off the name is dumb and petty, and unironically getting mad about it is even dumber. Yes, I know that it's a wordplay that's been officially used by the Republican Party for well over half a century, and that at least some of its users probably know that and are trolling a little bit, but who loving cares? Using that as a "They used a Republican word, they must be a secret Republican, time to get my sick owns in" thing is petty as hell. There's a massive gotcha culture in D&D, where half the people here are posting the most inflammatory and hyperbolic stuff they can come up with, and the other half are constantly looking for any excuse whatsoever to declare a poster Officially Evil and therefore not protected by the rules. Left two words off a phrase? You must be GOP-friendly, therefore evil, time to start screaming bile at you! Interested in actually reading sources and verifying claims, rather than declaring someone Basically Hitler based entirely on an inflammatory out-of-context tweet from some rando with five hundred followers? You must be racist-friendly, therefore evil, time to start screaming bile at you! None of that is D&D material in the first place. At least, according to the current and historical conception of D&D. But there's the loving thing, no one wants to post effortposts anymore. No one wants to research claims or evaluate sources anymore. They just want to fight and be an rear end in a top hat. People post the likes of the Daily loving Mail here and no one even checks the sourcing enough to call it out, because the claims agree with what they want to believe and therefore it must be true. People are biting on obvious bullshit on a daily basis here, and no one really calls it out. SA Politics has joined most of the rest of internet political discussion in becoming post-fact, probably because posting here is so Twitter-based that much of SA politics discussion is now just an extension of Twitter anyway. No one posts more than 280 characters anymore unless they're pissed off and want to start a venomous tirade. The SA politics forums used to be educational. A lot of people were radicalized here, and actively worked to persuade people. Now they've all been driven off by Twitter radicals who've carefully curated their social media timelines to feed themselves an endless stream of provocative clickbait while making sure they never ever have to hear a dissenting opinion. Nowadays? I'd love to think that it's all a bunch of crap, that people just want to scream insults for fun and are looking for any loving excuse they can find to start a silly internet fight. But the hate people harbor here seems to be all too real, because some people have taken it to loving extremes. There have been incidents where people have tried to get posters fired from their actual real-life jobs based on petty politics forum drama. And of course there's been a fair few incidents of people searching out posters' actual real-life jobs just to get in sick forum burns. It's no wonder this place is a shithole with intensely conflicted ideas on moderation. It's a deeply divided collection of communities waging forums jihad against each other, where a bunch of people utterly loathe each other with genuine real-life hatred. I feel like "don't search up other posters' resumes as argument for political discussion" wasn't something we needed to emphasize as an official rule back before 2016, but it came up entirely too often during my tenure. This sort of poo poo isn't just coming from one single clique or group, either. One last thing: I think old D&D is dead for real this time. In previous feedback threads, we'd see some of the knowledgeable and educational posters from the old times popping up to complain about how they don't really post anymore because they get faced with such hostile bullshit (like the infamous economist incident, or the "explaining something equals endorsing it" kerfluffle) and that mods should do something about all the hostility and bullshit. The hostility and bullshit have largely stuck around, though, and those people have been showing up less and less to feedback threads. In fact, this time, I don't think we've seen any of them at all! I think it's too late now, and that we've lost the effortposters for good. 
Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 20:39
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:D+D cannot be a place for liberals to blow off steam about the news and a place for open debate at the same time, it has been attempting to be both, and the attempts to resolve this contradiction have absolutely wrecked its userbase and moderation staff both. Shaking up the people in charge is only going to reset the timer until the next time this same dumb poo poo happens. Ath I'm sorry about making a second post here and will eat whatever punishment for it in order to highlight this. Nothing will get better until you (personally, the mod team, Jeff, whoever) actually make a decision about what D&D is and what it should be used for, and enforce those rules. If it's debate and discussion it shouldn't be used as the vent-about-republicans zone. If it's the vent-about-republicans zone, moderators need to stop moderating like it's a debate club. In any case, someone in a position to make decisions needs to make a decision. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Sep 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 5, 2024 06:44 |
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:One last thing: I think old D&D is dead for real this time. In previous feedback threads, we'd see some of the knowledgeable and educational posters from the old times popping up to complain about how they don't really post anymore because they get faced with such hostile bullshit (like the infamous economist incident, or the "explaining something equals endorsing it" kerfluffle) and that mods should do something about all the hostility and bullshit. The hostility and bullshit have largely stuck around, though, and those people have been showing up less and less to feedback threads. In fact, this time, I don't think we've seen any of them at all! I think it's too late now, and that we've lost the effortposters for good. I'm gonna use my final post in this thread and maybe D&D to agree with this completely and say that the current mod and admin team either did this intentionally or may as well have. The Oakland Martini callout during the last thread should have been a turning point. It wasn't, because Athanatos made a rule, then went off and did nothing about it like the rest of the modmins for another year or so. It took a few weeks before the same posters openly went back to holding the same opinions in public and kept driving off the rest of the posters who knew anything. Meanwhile, there's an *actual* genocide denial thread in CSPAM (or was, idk, unlike most people ITT I don't hate read forums I don't pay attention to anymore) and all the same sane, rational posters from there are in here suggesting their friends as mods to counter the raging, frothy liberals. What these forums used to be once upon a time makes me sad that it's come to this. Peace out. May Brown Moses never have to expose the geolocation of anyone on this cursed website.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2021 21:09
|
|
