|
Imo a very strong start, about as good as you could possibly hope for a Foundation TV show and I think they did a good job in respecting the source material while obviously having to adjust a lot of things (and already setting up future plot points). So far I also liked the changes / additions, ie the triple clone emperor setup for example is a great original idea and gives that side of the story much required depth and is also a pretty clever way to explore a character which is very appreciated with someone like Lee Pace in the role. I'd also say the first two episode squish any fears that this is going to be just some action-adventure story, it definitely still has enough of dialogue heaviness of the books. The focus so far is certainly on the characters and the overarching plot/world building and not action sequences. It should also be mentioned that the visuals so far have been great, it's really top tier hollywood movie stuff and you can see where that money was spent.
|
#
¿
Sep 24, 2021 11:52
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 08:53 |
|
|
Narmi posted:This fits but it's a really weird choice since he could have just decided not to teach psychohistory, or at least keep back certain parts so they can't figure it out. Instead he opts for a brutal murder that is going to demoralize everyone and make them uncertain about their mission. The following contains a lot of spoilery speculation / book spoilers/material: Seldon didn't "teach" psychohistory to Gaal, she is simply a (math) prodigy and another important aspect that was only hinted at: She might have psychic powers (or "mentalics" as they are called in the books). There were two scenes so far in which she had premonitions about events and it also shouldn't be a suprise if she is pregnant (there were two times she had sexy time with Raych on screen and then there was the whole baby discussion with her friend, imo two big hints). That could lead to a child with mentalic powers which then either becomes the Mule or is the "good" counter part to the Mule, maybe even as part of the 2nd Foundation. Also remember that Seldon's thinking is based around large populations and the longterm, the "demoralizing" effect could be just a short term blip and you might even be able to turn his death into martyrdom. You just need to "frame" Gaal as agent of the Emperor who had the mission to kill Seldon (Raych throws the knife into Gaal's rescue pod, he can easily pin it on her). If Seldon (the writers) are smart then he could even make his own death part of his plan/prediction and have him say in one of his first appearances as hologram that he expected to be killed by the Emperor / his agents and this whole charade would even boost people's belief in him. Now you might ask why and I don't want to say I 100% have the right answer to that but three major reasons come to mind: 1) We covered that one already, ie removing all possible psychohistorians from the (first) Foundation. 2) Seldon needs Gaal for the 2nd Foundation in some capacity but can't just tell her that because it might either affect the overall plan or there is the risk Gaal might refuse if he just asks her. 3) It's about the mentalic powers / the possible child I speculated about and neither should be part of the (first) Foundation. It should be mentioned that in the books the character of Raych (who is also adopted by Hari Seldon just like in the show) has one child, Wanda Seldon, who possess mentalic powers and is one of those people who formed the Second Foundation. So my speculation is that instead of a random character (Manella Seldon is Raych's wife in the books who is a non-character) being Raych's future "wife"/mother of his child, it is going to be Gaal in that role. This is imo also the reason why they gave Gaal these premonitions, it would be a good way to foreshadow the genetic potential in regards to mentalics and maybe Seldon even planned for Raych and Gaal to have a child with such powers. The potential mentalics could be the flaw in Seldon's plan (mentalics like the Mule who could undermine everything) and/or Raych/Gaal and their potential mentalic child (who goes on to build the Second Foundation) are the countermeasure. A more tragic twist would be if Seldon predicts mentalics but wants to utilize them for the Second Foundation but the child (or one of the descendants) ends up becoming the Mule. His backstory in the books is so generic that I'm sure that they are going to do something more interesting with that because in the books even his real name and what he did in his early life is unknown. So that is some speculation, I'm of course not sure how much of that is really going to happen but I'm at least somewhat confident that some of these things are at least in the ballpark of what the writers have planned. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 25, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
Bobbin Threadbare posted:I believe in Foundation's Edge it turns out Mule is a lost child of Gaia, the psychic planet. Ah yes, I guess you are right, I think I just chose to forget certain things from that book.  Gaia is obviously another story element that could be used in some way and it would be another easy "change" to say that there is some connection between Gaal and Gaia so you just move that connection somewhat down the line. Obviously just speculation on my part but making the Mule a lost child of Gaia didn't really add anything to the story (imo Gaia felt a bit too much like a giant deux ex machina in the books which I guess is somewhat appropriate considering Gaia's nature ) and I feel Gaia might be a bit "out there" in general so I'd be surprised if Gaia from the books survives the transition to TV in that particular shape.I also had to edit my comment a bit, I previously said Seldon didn't predict mentalics in the books but I'm now not sure if he just didn't predict mentalics in general or just "mutants" like the Mule, the mentalics were obviously an important part of the Second Foundation so Seldon must have known about them or at least mentalic powers. In any case I'd be VERY surprised if the TV show hasn't already planted the seeds for mentalics/the Mule/the Second Foundation with the characters of Raych and Gaal, too many things that point in that direction. That way you can also keep certain characters and storylines separated, you have Salvor Hardin for the First Foundation as protagonist and Gaal and her story as origin for the Second Foundation.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 25, 2021 21:42
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Yeah tons of filler this episode. As good as the performances are on Trantor nothing they do matters. The only plot points this episode are that a) no one on Terminus can read psychohistory and b) the Anachreons are coming. This episode had about 10 minutes of plot relevant material. There was a lot of world building and character setup. I mean do you expect them to rush through the "plot" despite the fact that the average viewer knows nothing about these characters or the world they live in? They even had the guts to keep big time jumps and switch to a different protagonist in the story. So I don't see how this could be called "filler". They are still setting up major parts of the characters, explain the world to the viewer (Trantor and Terminus) and all while introducing new questions (mysteries) which you can't drop and immediately solve. quote:And it's pretty funny that even though we spent 1/3 of the episode with the Empire we know barely anything about the Imperial interdiction on Anachreon. What "barbarian kingdom"? It shows that you bring in book stuff (we don't know what the status of Anachreon is, whether or not if it can even be called a "kingdom" or is actually "barbaric") . For TV audiences the Anachreons are a faction introduced in the first two episodes who blew up the space elevator and got punished for it (their homeworld destroyed). The purpose of this episode obviously wasn't to already dump exposition in regards to Anachreon because that isn't necessary yet. The important part is to setup Terminus as place and the people (including our protagonist) there. Anachreon is then used as potential "threat" but the audience as well as the people on Terminus are left in the dark about the motivation or reason behind why the Anachreons are there. What does get mentioned is that they were banned from entering Empire territory. Dealing with Anachreon itself and what happened is obviously part of the "cliffhanger". The Trantor part of the episode is used as bridge between the first two episodes and the Terminus stuff and makes the time jump less awkward while establishing the process around "Empire". It also clearly sets the stage for the audience in regards to time shenanigans. They also managed to further explore the "Empire" characters (we are made to emphasize with him/them) and the relationship between them and Demerzel (which will be important later on). quote:And it's pretty funny that even though we spent 1/3 of the episode with the Empire we know barely anything about the Imperial interdiction on Anachreon. I can't believe erasing a small piece of mural got more screen time than like "Hey where are we on this barbarian kingdom thing???" Don't you think that's very dismissive of a deeper point that is shown through the erasure of that mural? A lot of people are quick to complain about too much action and yet we can't appreciate scenes such as that? Not that it is a super brilliant scene but it has at least a layer of depth and was setup in the first episode. Let stories breath a bit before complaining about "filler episodes". mr. unhsib posted:That being said, I don't see this "Salvor has a special connection to the vault" subplot going anywhere good. I kinda understand this concern but at the same time I hope people do remember that the Foundation books have "space magic" and that it's a pretty important part in the story (I'd argue it even dominates the whole story). Possible book spoiler but mostly speculation: I guess in the TV show the vault / Seldon could pick people to shape certain events. So this "special connection" is just being picked by Seldon and the vault is simply super scifi tech that can basically act like "magic", especially in a universe that has psychic powers. You could even speculate that Salvor's resistence to the vault field might show a potential for/resistence to psychic powers and maybe that's why she gets "picked". I'd at least argue that the effect they use + nose bleeds is usually a short cut for "psychic abilities", not to mention the illusions she has. It's at least obvious that in the TV show the vault is more than just a simple way to announce Seldon's predictions. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 1, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Oct 1, 2021 22:12
|
|
|
galenanorth posted:Episode 4 spoilers Can't wait to see what happens during Brother Day's impulsive visit to the end of the galaxy. It looked like his ship was unaccompanied by naval ships, which seems to defy all common sense, especially since he knows they have no naval ships stationed at the edge of the galaxy. The references to Salvor Hardin having a "destiny" continue to annoy me, but I feel like I won't know until the end of the season to see where they're going with it. It feels like the coincidental low-probability coin flips were intended to indicate that this was one of Hari Seldon's predictions, as if they were also "destiny". It feels like they're trying to graft Calvinian predestination religion onto Foundation, especially with the references to Hari Seldon playing the role of God. Wasn't the point about the coin flip that this wasn't just chance and instead she got a certain result through "cheating"? That's why she is saying that the Anachreons aren't just by chance on Terminus, ie it isn't just a random event (or to quote her "repeated luck is never luck"). The big takeaway from this episode should be that Salvor is confirmed to have psychic abilities so let's see what they are going to do with that.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 8, 2021 16:17
|
|
|
stephenthinkpad posted:I love Lee Pace, he is such a dick Not really a spoiler to say but... "magic" is also very important in the books and her abilities are pretty much just laying the foundation (heh) for that part. I also don't think we are supposed to think that she can see the future and this is purerly based on the show (Salvor as character is completetly different to the book version) but her visions are clearly tied to the vault and I'd speculate that the boy she saw on Trantor in her vision is simply Raych as kid. Another possible book spoiler (in a very tangential way) and pure speculation but honestly something that should be obvious from the TV show: I actually don't think this is about a typical "chosen one" or better said that it is somewhat of a misdirection. Imo Seldon uses the vault to influence what is happening and he picked Salvor due to her abilities so the only "magic" are her psychic abilities, everything else that is happening is connected to that fact. The bigger question is going to be how much the vault/Seldon know/control/manipulate events or if there is even a certain other "faction" involved. Phenotype posted:I really didn't expect it, I thought Asimov's stuff was all hard science and logic and didn't have any froo froo magic abilities running around. That being said, I'm here for it and willing to see what they do with it. I don't know that it's all "different magical abilities", though, I'm willing to accept a generalized "psychicness" or whatever that makes her immune to the force field and gives her vague precognitive abilities. Foundation isn't really "hard scifi" by modern SciFi standards and these psychic abilities are not just in the books but a central part of the story. I think a lot of book readers often chose to ignore it because Asimov treated them a lot like just another "tool" and they were mostly offscreen and/or sparingly used (and there are plot reasons for that) and might run under the "any technology advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic" approach ("psychic" abilities in the 40s and 50s were still something that many scientists didn't dismiss out of hand and let's just say that the later books also had a very spritiual element in them, certainly not just "logic"). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Oct 8, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Oct 8, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:Yeah there are large amounts of hand waving and even then it isn't really how math works, but the idea was that when a human population gets to the level of trillions of people you can make broad but accurate predictions. Like Seldon wasn't able to predict that the empire would fall on x date through y means, but he was able to say to a very high degree of certainty that the empire would fall within a few hundred years despite at the time seeming like it was stronger than ever. I get your complain to a certain extent but it should also be obvious that "math" is just a shorthand for a more complex explanation. They could talk about statistics, sociology models and maybe even ML/AI algorithms but in the end it isn't even wrong to say that all of this comes down to "maths" at a fundamental level. You simply have to accept that in this universe there isn't a sharp distinction or better said that "psychohistory" kinda covers all these areas. I would even argue that our recent trends in AI/ML research might be a lot closer to "psychohistory" than "classic" math and even Asimov's approach of needing big populations for the predictions in psychohistory is pretty much today's "big data". I do however understand that they don't even try to go in that direction because it could have felt too contemporary to directly use AI/ML etc. and it would probably have generated it even more complaints about changing the book story. It should however be mentioned that "AI" is a thing in Asimov's world, we even see an artifical intelligence on the show so it is part of the technology in this world. So it's not a stretch to think of "maths" in a way that includes models which rely on fields we kind of seperate today to some extent. If people today say "trust the science (maths)" in regards to climage change then it is pretty much the same. We (hopefully) understand that it is still "just" a prediction but that it is based on (good) data/math. There are also some complaints here which ARE adressed in the story, Seldon's prediction's aren't perfect or even deterministic, that is also acknowledged in the show. Btw it is easier to predict "smaller" events that are temporally close, so theoretically speaking it makes sense that Seldon can predict events which are about to happen on smaller scales but he can't predict such smaller events 100 years into the future Boris Galerkin posted:My problem is that where the characters say “math” what they really mean is “astrology.” The show would be watchable for me if they would say astrology instead of math to be honest. Just look at the progress of ML/AI in the last 10 years. Is that also "astrology"? I feel like this kind of complaint is just using a far too narrow focus. "Math" in this context doesn't mean it is a deterministic formula to predict the future, even the TV show makes that clear. quote:Even ignoring my complaint about calling it math, the predictive abilities of that “math” isn’t even consistent. Anderson Dawes says that it can’t predict individuals, just broad trends. Yet he also predicts that the main character would accept his offer to abandon her family and life and come to that planet and that she would go along with his plan. He also predicts that he would get arrested on exactly the next day and not “some time after today but less than 40 years.” He predicts that there would conveniently be a terrorist attack done by 2 individuals who happen to be of the same race(?) as the delegations from the two planets. He also predicted that the main character would accept his offer and arrive conveniently on the planet at the same time that the Emperor would invite those two diplomats to come talk peace. He didn't predict that terrorist attack and there is a difference between using psychohistory and Seldon's own "schemes". He uses psychohistory to make informed decisions/plans on a individual basis, it's kinda like taking an umbrella outside when the weather report says it is going to rain. You don't need to know where one specific raindrop falls to predict you are going to be wet. Seldon didn't know that there was going to be a terrorist attack but he knew that enough conflict/crises existed within the empire that will lead to the decision by Empire to exile him. Also consider what I wrote before, the spatial and temporal distance should matter in any prediction, the events close to Seldon aren't some distant future event and Seldon has a lot more information on Empire, Gael and so on than on each individual in the empire, not all data is created equal. Besides that some of the complaints are adressed within the story, events don't just happen because of predictions, we even see that in episode 2 (there are enough "hints" that Seldon didn't die by "accident" and that Gael was ejected into space).
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2021 16:55
|
|
|
feedmegin posted:'Hari said the entire galaxy can pivot around the actions of an individual' no he bloody didn't, its the exact opposite of what he said. Psychohistory works precisely because this is NOT true! If that was true there would be no Second Foundation. It seems people often like to make the same mistake with Psychohistory as they do with the three robotic laws, they take the premise as "truth" instead of realising that Asimov's whole point is that the story is about the flaws of the premise.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 22, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
Small White Dragon posted:I guess him. Him being color-blind must mean something. Not really a spoiler but to be save: Seems pretty clear cut to me, he has unwanted mutations thus he isn't a "perfect" clone of Cleon and will behave/act differently which means you could say he IS a different person in general (outside of the philosophical discussion whether or not clone are the "same" person to begin with). This whole storyline isn't in the books so many personal speculation is that his gardener girl friend might become his wife/queen or at least give him a child and instead of clone emperors we get the vanilla flavor of Emperors which might lead to some better ones in the future but also with the potential for really, really bad (and unstable) ones. That would also open the door for a different actor as Emperor in the next season (as well as another time jump). I love Lee in the role but I'd guess you don't want this side of the story to get stale and there is only so much you can do with the clone emperors before it becomes repetitive and something big has to happen on that side of the story, ie there is a lot of forshadowing that a clone Emperor will at least die and/or the whole clone emperor system will crumble.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 23, 2021 11:17
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:Lol it was absolutely critical, vital even, to their plan that they get a handful of people with unique knowledge from the colony, and yet they were just loving gatting people left and right. Who wrote this garbage? Yeah, that was dumb, really no excuses there, especially considering that they were looking for very specific people so they couldn't even say "eh good enough if some scientists survive, they will do", no they needed specialists which were apparently not common at all.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 23, 2021 11:24
|
|
|
Odoyle posted:They’re gonna make Gaal (book)The Mule aren’t they? They really do want me to hate this show outright. I don't think so. Seems more likely that she will be the mother(!) of the mule. I speculated before that she is pregnant and could have a child that either is involved in the Second Foundation or becomes he Mule. We now know that she isn't going to be involved in the Second Foundation, at least it doesn't seem like that's the path they are taking, so it'd make narrative sense if her child ends up being the Mule, especially with the powers they have setup for Gaal. Having herself be the Mule doesn't really work, there isn't any motivation for it and it'd be weird to have such a turn. It'd make a lot more sense if her child becomes the Mule and might carry resentment towards the Foundations due to what happened with his mother (you could easily set it up in a way that provies ample motivation). Gaal's travel through space (taking 100+ years to arrive at her next destination) + having a child also gives the story enough opportunity to move further through the stories timeline.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 5, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
muscles like this! posted:The Gaal/Salvor plot is definitely the weakest, especially now that they no longer are moored to any specific plot. Also I guess we're supposed to be at the point of the story where the Foundation is acting as a religion except we don't really get to see it because we spent all our time with characters not actually at the Foundation. Which is a huge problem of the show. "Empire" and Trantor anchor the viewer more to the show than the Foundation, the thing that is front and center in the books. I don't even mind that this side of the story is so prominent, it's obviously the best part of the show but it really highlights how much they dropped the ball on the rest. And yeah Gaal/Salvor are both a black hole of charisma and just so generic/blank. The script obviously doesn't help them and while I don't enjoy bashing actor performances they are definitely a part of the problem too (Gaal has imo more potential, I think she could work with better direction but Salvor is just bad).
|
|
#
¿
Jul 15, 2023 17:58
|
|
|
Making the Mule a typical Power Rangers knockoff villain surely is a choice... Once again the writers completetly miss what made the Mule a good villain and instead we get a brutish mustache twirling guy? Like what? Is that the best you could do? Besides that his whole introduction (same for the Second Foundation) is a HUGE waste. THAT'S how you decide to introduce your audience to him? Without ANY context and just as some random bad dude? It also feels like a non-book reader would still be totally confused why the Second Foundation is a big deal and what exactly they are supposed to do but I don't even know where they are going with them except shoving Gael and Salvor into that storyline. I think I have never seen a show that has such a stark contrast in writing quality between two of its parts. Empire/Trantor continues to be good, even new characters like Domina constantly manage to be a lot better (the dialogue between her and Empire is genuinely great stuff) though I will say that the "Magicians" were the first new characters on the other side of the story that made at least a good first impression.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 21, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
Snowmanatee posted:drat, you fell for it hard. Kudos to the writers, I thought it was a bit obvious for book readers what was going on. There is no way that is what The Mule looks like. He fits the description of how Magnifico describes The Mule in the books. It’s a projection. Obviously the writers can’t introduce a weird little dude who would immediately be clocked by everyone as The Mule, so they did something very smart which is show us him and name him right away, so the average viewer isn’t even wondering who The Mule could be and a reveal twist can still happen. If that's really the intention then that might be a good "twist" down the line but it doesn't change the fact that the main villain is just "goofy" in the audiences mind. The problem here isn't that the villain is different from the actual Mule, it's that even this different/"fake" version of the Mule is simply lame. Besides that there was still no setup, no introduction to the Mule. We are TOLD who the Mule is and why he is "bad" but he is just suddenly dropped into the story as this big element. That's neither elegant nor engaging. I'm also in general not a friend of a "twist villain" that is hidden from the audience. I prefer the twist villain where the audience is aware of what is happening because that usually increases tension and opens the chance to actually explore the villain but if you are forced to hide your twist villain it often leads to an underdeveloped villain and the role of the "real" villain has to be filled by a lesser (and most of the time more boring) version. The books can get around this because they can still have a PoV of the Mule, describe his actions and thoughts etc. and also drop exposition regarding the Mule in a more elegant way that isn't as (easily) accessible to the TV medium. So I can only hope that they don't waste too much time in hiding the Mule from the audience.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 22, 2023 17:44
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Nah. Introducing him earlier makes sense considering this story is way more serialized and interconnected than the books. If he's gonna be a huge villain of a continuous story it doesn't work as well to have him just pop up in the last third. I explicitly said the problem is that there was no setup, no introduction, not that he was introduced too early and I stand with my comment on him looking goofy. He literally looked like a satirical version of a "scifi villain" including Mad Max armor, hand gun etc. He wouldn't look out of place in some C-tier SciFi movie. That isn't helped by the fact that he is chasing our protagonist alone on foot for some reason, acting more like a henchman than a big bad (that whole scene was awkward and just poor "action"), it's just one cliche after another. And again to repeat my issue here: The audience knows nothing about him except that he is "bad". There is no context to his role in the story, that he even is supposed to be a warlord (a warlord of what?`what faction? why is there a warlord etc.), what "power" he actually has (but let's just throw in the concept of mentalist and not bother in setting that up), WHY he is "bad", what he does etc. He is literally just a generic bad guy whose name even has to be told through pure exposition, we don't even get his name organically. So that whole scene isn't even really an introduction to the Mule, it's more of an exposition dump because the whole scene with him only serves as macguffin to get their version of the Second Foundation plotline going including their "time skip" shenanigans. So not only is the "introduction" of the Mule wasted, they also hardly manage to properly setup the Second Foundation which is also just treated as a story macguffin. The Second Foundation is important because the exposition says so, not because it's in any way or shape explored. Also note that the big "oh no!" moment wasn't the Mule or the Second Foundation, it's that Salvor is dead. So the story doesn't even give these two central elements enough attention, it's suddenly about "how did Salvor end up dead there". The way the Second Foundation is treated is also a big disappointment. If you wanted to have a big mystery/twist, the Second Foundation could have been that but it looks like they need the Second Foundation to keep Gael/Salvor relevant/busy which is a shame. That's also another problem I have with this whole scene. Gael (or Salvor) meeting the Mule isn't earned (yet). The audience has no context for the Mule and the characters don't even have any relationship with him so you are wasting his introduction because there has been no setup, the stakes aren't clear. The villain meeting the protagonists should always be a big moment in your story but here the Mule is only part of a flashforward that is too short to actually build him up as proper villain and too long for him being just a mysterious/distant threat. In this case NOT naming him at all would have actually been the better choice. Introduce the vague threat of someone, even obscure "our" view of him and make him a mystery for the time being (even the "fake" Mule version). Focus on exploring the powers Gael/Salvor have and what they mean for their "plan", what the Second Foundation is and what role it has to play and develop the First Foundation INCLUDING the upcoming conflict because within that the Mule can naturally be introduced, that's where the audience should meet him first, not directly through our protagonists. That way you tease this new threat and when they actually meet it has some weight (no matter which version of the Mule). Though all the issues stem from the fact that we have two "useless" protagonists that are disconnected from the rest of the story and a lot of plot padding has to happen due to that. It's obvious that both of them will be integrated within the Second Foundation part of the story but I already dread that. Not only because both are the worst part of the show but because their characters and how the story treats them conflict with the whole idea of the (Second) Foundation. Having said that the way Seldon's plan is depicted is also a complete mess by this point and I doubt that the core premise of the (original) story is even clear to the audience. The show already treats everything as if it would depend on individual actions and that its part of some kind of magic mathematical prophecy and the whole societal development angle gets lost in this, it's all about the actions of Seldon himself, Gael and Salvor and thus undermining a big part of the core concept before it could even develop within the story (you also lose something in regards to the psychohistory as "religion" angle and the irony in there if the story treats these predictions as godlike prophecies including "chosen ones"). Even how they present things going wrong feels more "multiverse"/different timeline-shenanigans than what the real idea behind "psychohistory" was (and you have to properly establish what psychohistory in its essence is before you can subvert it later, the way they portray it currently the Mule won't stand out from any other "random" event/character).
|
|
#
¿
Jul 22, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
Liked the episode and yeah this season so far feels less "static" and more adventurous which makes even the weakest part (Gaal/Salvor/Seldon) a lot better. Talking about it... they managed to do more for Bel Riose as a character in one episode than with Salvor in a whole season, showing once again that everything on the side of the Empire storyline is for some reason much better and it has good story potential for a "sympathetic" villain (or maybe even an antihero down the line? The setup for him vs Empire is certainly obvious). Also... is it really that big of a mystery for Seldon to be "back" as a human? I mean Empire isn't a secret so the technology is there and Seldon's consciousness was obviously saved so the only real "surprise" or challenge would be to have access to that technology (the real question then becomes why this wasn't part of the plan to begin with).
|
|
#
¿
Jul 28, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
latinotwink1997 posted:Didn’t they say “someone is breathing over there” or something like that, and that’s why the killer machines went to the statue? I’m thinking he’s a biological clone. He also had a pulse. Maybe Androids have one too (though what was been shown so far in the show is that Androids on the inside are certainly not "fake" humans) but I'd think they wouldn't highlight the pulse thing if he wasn't a real human. Besides that I don't know what it would add to the story if Seldon was suddenly an Android.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 29, 2023 20:18
|
|
|
Resdfru posted:All of you with inside knowledge having read the books are very cool but can I ask that we keep any speculation based on book knowledge in spoiler tags saying as much. And also book spoilers in general because some of us will switch to the books and having surprises will be cool. You can't spoil this show/story. Foundation is about the journey from A to B, not what B is and the show plot is so different from the book that noone will be able to spoil that journey, it's that far removed. The biggest possible spoiler would have been the existence of the Second Foundation and the Mule but the show already dropped them into the story (and unlike the books didn't use them as mystery or "twist"). If you want to read the books this show has already spoiled you a lot more than it will be able to spoil anything from here on out in regards to the show.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 3, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:Latest episode: "Don't walk that way, I took a dump over there," killed me. The nonplussed way that 4th dude enters the vault and is just like "I let someone else be in charge" with absolutely no "you've been in here for hours and I got worried about my daughter" and no "let's try to go back out, get a rope, make sure we have supplies, and make sure nobody is worried about how long it's taking us to be in here" is just.... hilarious. I love that the show isn't wasting time and getting on with it and instead of feeling like I have to ask "why aren't they taking precautions?" I feel way more like I'm watching Hitchhiker's Guide and just having fun. The dialog is brilliant throughout and for a wonderful episode that is missing the worst part of the show, Gaal and Salvor, I actually wondered out loud "...I wonder what Gaal and Salvor are up to." This show feels well and truly saved. Both monks (and Hober Mallow) make me wish these were the main protagonists instead of Gaal and Salvor. There is just so much more going on with them and they actually have some charisma and character on screen. It would have been a challenge to have them in S1 and I understand why a character like Gaal was needed to introduce Seldon but it feels like the concept of both (Gaal and Hardin) is so weighted down by the whole "chosen one" trope that it made them so generic and based on that they also picked the most generic casting and why do so many shows struggle with female protagonists that much, especially in SciFi/Fantasy? I'm just reliaved we get Constant now who has actually something to her because I'm really getting tired of writers creating blank, risk free female "heroes" and without positive example I'd sound like a typical gamergate degenerate so thank god for Constant (and yes she is already my favorite character right next to Empire and it's certainly not easy to compete with Lee Pace's overwhelming charisma). Side note: A female character that is confident in expressing her own sexuality/desire without making it forced/awkward in my SciFi and she is also an active character instead of things just happening to her? Holy s... the writer's of this show just confuse me. How do we get Empire and her and then some of the other stuff... The sad part is that there wasn't any need for a lot of the bad stuff and that they wasted far too much time on the VERY early Foundation. Everything meaningful, ie getting the whole premise across, introducing characters and the central conflict was done after Ep2, everything else was a bad (newly invented) storyline and forcng our two "heroes" into the future. In S1 I actually thought that Gaal exists because they wouldn't keep Jared Harris around or at least that he wouldn't be around enough to carry the story so we get Gaal instead of him. I could understand that but now Harris is not just around, he is literally everywhere in the story (talk about a departure from the books). But okay, we get Gaal to have a younger, female character and don't just follow around an old dude surrounded by other dudes, I get that. What I don't get is why we needed Hardin on top of that, she is literally a "copy" of that character (a daughter in the story but a cloned character in its functionality). Constant now highlights that she (or a character like her) would have been a far better choice to have an audience surrogate on the Foundation side. The recent episodes even sets up a "relationship" between Seldon and Constant. She had more chemistry with Seldon than Gaal in all episodes together... I feel like we now have three characters (Gaal, Hardin, Constant) that should have been one, at least as "focus" of the story. Constant even feels like a "fix" to the problem the writers have created for themselves, ie removing Gaal AND Hardin from the Foundation side of the story. All of this because they are obviously using those two for the whole Second Foundation plot but I don't know why they wanted to introduce that so early or why they thought our main protagonists should be involved there from the beginning and I don't get why Gaal AND Hardin are needed if you also have Seldon around all the time. You could cut Hardin completely from the story and NOTHING would be missed, that includes her enemy/villain from S1, it literally had no impact on anything, it was just a generic crises that could have been anything else with any other character. They will obviously come up with a "reason" for Hardin to exist and have her do SOMETHING but it just doesn't feel organic or neccessary to me (the whole Gaal/Hardin setup is super contrived to begin with). I think a lot of S1 could have been a quick prelude to what is now happening in S2, ie condense S1 into 2 eps and then start with what you are doing now. Imo using the whole of S1 just as "flashbacks" would probably have been better from a storytelling perspective, especially considering that you got monks who could reminiscent / tell the story about Empire and how the Foundation came to be (Seldon in the Vault could have been another device for exposition etc.). It would have been the perfect framing device and made all the heavy exposition less awkward because them explaining all the "obvious" stuff makes a lot more sense (and Asimov had the right instinct not to start his Foundation series with the "boring" prelude...). Now I really wonder if they even had future seasons planned out (and I don't mean the exact details of everything/every ep but a general structure). That the prime radiant is now a super AI(?) for example seems like something they just came up with after last season and not something that was set up or even hinted at in S1, I certainly don't remember anything that could make the prime radiant suddenly a conscious machine or a supercomputer in a "state of superposition" (lol, you'd think that would have been worth mentioning in S1 huh?) or whatever else they are going for. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Aug 5, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Aug 5, 2023 03:56
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:The three of them are part of the show's themes about legacy / continuance. The generational struggle of Hari/Gaal/Salvor act as counterpoint to Dusk/Day/Dawn's stasis. Oh I will absolutely acknowledge that they are trying to do something with Gaal and Salvor but it wasn't properly set up in S1 and I also don't think that these themes and conflicts are particularly strong or interesting (at least in how they are depicted). You name the generational struggle but I don't buy that because Salvor and Gaal are in an ACTUAL stasis while Empire has at least its own experiences in each generation AND we now have their genetic drift. Empire is of course a very literal metaphor for how the system, the "real" empire, is in decline (and has been before because it doesn't change/adapt) and has to be "fixed" or will be destroyed (genetic "death") but in a weird way we might have seen more "growth" from Empire than from Gaal/Salvor, at least in some way if you consider Dawn's plot/"rebellion" (I mean that would be some great irony, I just don't know if that's intentional). I also don't see Seldon in this whole theme of generations because his personal age/generation doesn't really matter. Seldor is more of a "revolutionary" than Gaal/Salvor (and revolutions/revolutionaries represent generational conflict, there is a reason why we associate "young(er)" people with it and why even in actual history they are often carried out by younger leaders), he is the one who questions the status quo and literally creates a movement that's directed towards the future(!). So for me the struggle between him and Gaal/Salvor isn't generational, it's ideological (how Seldon sees the world vs how they do). For all intents and purposes Seldon could be Gaal's brother and the nature of the conflict wouldn't change (his age is never made relevant outside of following certain tropes of the wise mentor etc. and he also isn't "disconnected" from the real world or shown as a relict of another time, for the most part it is Gaal who doesn't have an idea about how the "real" world looks/works, not to mention that she is the one who wants to run from any radical change and returns to her home/clings to that past). I think the only reason Seldon is "old" in the books is due to the fact that he is somewhat of a self-insert for Asimov and doesn't really matter to the story outside of being the face for psychohistory (another good reason for his age in the books is his role later on as "religious" figure with a "godlike" image, I mean we usually associate "old (white) men" as "god" so that's certainly a factor). I also don't think that Salvor or her experience has given us any insight which wouldn't have been possible with Gaal or any other character. Gaal is already portrayed as a "small cog" (naive, young girl from a remote world) who is getting manipulated by bigger forces/events (Seldon/psychohistory). So my point isn't that you should have given up what they tried to do with Salvor, it's more so that it wasn't don't well and that Salvor itself wasn't really needed for it. Also consider that Salvor in S1 is actually a very proactive character, she isn't pushed around or just follows bigger events, she actually shaped them with her own actions so I can't even say that the whole "small cog in a big machine" part works for Salvor. She was already someone with huge power/influence in the Foundation, gets "superpowers" through the writers (and I think that's another issue for me, it undermines that message if you want to go for "perspective" from small/regular people) and is connected through direct blood to Gaal (Psychohistory). That not only makes the whole universe look smaller, it feels closer to her being the one who controls the machine and Gaal has a similar problem and I dread what their actual role is later on in the story. It's all but guaranteed that they will be more than just a cog, I mean that's already a given considering their abilities and they won't be written out of the story so they will very directly impact the end/conclusion of the story which is also at odds with the generational angle because by then they will have changed less than Empire (thematically its also a bit weird to have related characters, ie a "dynasty" be the opposition of Empire). It's also why I don't like the more personal relationship between Seldon and them. Does it make for easier storytelling on TV? Of course but it also runs in opposition to some of the interesting aspects/themes of the whole Foundation/psychohistory concept. It makes it a personalized issue instead of looking at the broader implications: Salvor is more worried about the "man" than psychohistory itself, the conflict is about Seldon as person and how he can't be trusted, less about psychohistory itself which is mostly treated as your typical fantasy prophecy. I mean we now have people acting in the name of the Foundation/Psychohistory that are personally "anointed" by our god (emperor) Seldon. That goes so much against the whole basic premise of Psychohistory that it really bothers me. There is a reason why the books didn't have a classical protagonist thoughout the whole story AND why the story didn't start with Seldon (and didn't make him a real character later on) but threw us in the middle of the whole thing and is imo the reason why the monk part of S2 already feels so much better because it's basically another version of what the books did. Constant's interactions with the "myth" of Seldon feel like a much better place from where you can (critically) explore Psychohistory, especially because you have that whole "religion" angle already built in and it isn't just about personal relationships being difficult, it's (potentially) about your whole belief system being shattered and while the relationship between Seldon and Gaal has been one of peers, maybe not socially but certainly intellectually, there was conflict from the very beginning (Gaal is a prime example for the reluctant hero, there is conflict but we all know it's superficial). That conflict is now shifted onto Salvor, ie Salvor now has to be the "opposition" to Seldon (because she needs something to do) and imo that makes Gaal less complex because instead of having an internal conflict in herself, it's now Salvor playing good/bad (depending on your interpretation) angle on Gaal's shoulder. So Salvor now exists just for Gaal, she is literally her whole universe (she doesn't have any other relationships, clear goals, an ideology or anything else). It's also worth mentioning that the whole "generational" aspect is also already better reflected in Constant and brother Poly Verisof. Here we have a character that saw the mythical Seldon as a child and then in contrast there is a character from an actual different generation who only knows Seldon as a "myth"/historical or religious figure AND these characters act and live within the Foundation, the organisation which is supposed to be the actual mirror (thematically) to the Empire. Gaal on the other hand doesn't have anything to do with the Foundation and Salvor barerly represents the "baby phase" of the Foundation (not to mention that Salvor has been used as the "fist" of the Foundation the whole time in S1, she isn't the idealistic representation of the Foundation, she actually fought enemies of Empire more than doing "Foundation stuff"). Talking about the Foundation... even with our two brothers its still a weakness of the show. We have spent a lot of time to show what Empire is/represents but that's just not the case with the Foundation. What we see resolves about personal issues and often a very cynical depiction of Foundation members. TV show viewers might even wonder what redeeming qualities the Foundation has because it seems to be full of a-holes every time we see an "offical" and I get what its supposed to show but for that to work you first have to establish the Foundation as something "positive"/competent before you go on and do all the "look at the corruption and issues that arise" part (or else you are going to ask why all our of protagonists are trying to save it). That's why I also really don't like Seldon just killing a smug politician and the whole excuse he gave for it, it's what Empire would do and if you want a better society you have to set a better standard than being a revengeful god so not buying that even if the writers think its cool (and once again I don't like making Psychohistory about the person that Seldon was/is and I feel it will muddle the message or whatever they are trying to say). So I'd appreciate if there was a bit more subtlety for characters and potential conflicts within the Foundation. So far any antagonists within the Foundation are comically one-dimensional and to such a degree that it reflects poorly on the whole organisation and it doesn't give you a feeling of "yeah, that's the kind of society that would totally be different than all the other ones including Empire". The show does use the technological innovations and competence the Foundation has in its plot but that's only used as a story gimmick so far but it should tell you a lot more about the ideals of the Foundation and how it works as a society, something that should be shown/communicated on screen AND should impact our characters in a meaningful way (Constant and Verisof were at least a good start here). PS: Just wanted to add that I appreciate your reply and my "rant" isn't directed at you, I just used your post as staging point for some more of my thoughts (and I hope noone is bothered by my wall of text/ramblings). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Aug 6, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Aug 6, 2023 23:48
|
|
|
Trying posted:My theory is that the foreverly himbofied genetic empire periodically fucks up so badly that Mom has to murder everybody and reincarnate grandpa My theory (and it's ofc not spoilers because none of this exists in the books): The one who actually rules is the original Cleon. He wakes up from time to time, does whatever he thinks is best and then wipes their memory of that time. That's also why Daneel acts so suspicious in certain scenes because she is actually in on it and her real agenda is to help the original Cleon and keep the clones in check and make sure this whole conspiracy works. That leads to the question of "why" and my best answer is because it's obviously down to Cleon's ego (the one consistent thing). His clones ruling for all eternity isn't enough, it has to be HIM that is actually in change, the greatest and only true Cleon. Well, that's at least my theory, I'm sure the show can come up with something worse. My only alternative theory is that Daneel is doing the memory altering for her agenda whatever that might be. It does need to be connected to the original Cleon, they certainly made an effort to include him in the first place and remind us all about him so if Daneel is behind the "memory conspiracy" it has something to do with Empire and original Cleon (typical "twist" stuff would be that the whole clone idea/setup was Daneel's plan/work and the whole memory thing is because something is going wrong).
|
|
#
¿
Aug 13, 2023 02:25
|
|
|
The whole "magic" of predicting patterns in Seldon's story is the cringe inducing way (stupid) writers like to portray intelligent characters. Is that really the best idea you had? He can "predict" the exact spot where space animals are running through? Come on. Also I actually prefer Asimov's absense of character work if that's how you use your TV shows time. Did we really need this super generic backstory? I'm not even sure what its supposed to tell us. Seldon is human afterall? I don't even really understand why his boss did what she did, like why was that the option she chose? And why should I care about this bland "villain" or Seldon's reaction to it... Why does everything need to be so one-dimensional and bathed in tropes, be it super generic abusive father, tragic love interest or all the messiah talk/allegories. A big theme of Foundation or better said psychohistory is the mundanity of human history. Repeating patterns and a "predictability" at a larger scale and that not every character is "special" or has a deep "dramatic" backstory is reinforcing that idea, it is the reality of the mundane. I get that it's hard to write this sort of character in a TV show because you want the "cheap" drama to pad out your story but it's just so lazy. There is just nothing "grounded" in this show and that will be to its detriment because psychohistory has never been properly established so any later attempts to show its flaws or subvert it won't really hit because it's not even properly established in the audience's mind (the show keeps treating it as mumbo jumbo magic SciFi prophecy). Instead we get the most generic "deterministic future" talk despite the fact that this is explicitly NOT what psychohistory is about and yet they chose to focus the story so much around that with Gael's vision. So we get this tired trope instead of exploring the main interesting concept of Foundation... like actually looking at and portraying systemic forces/institutions that drive society in a certain direction (which could be very topical if you tried that) but I guess that would need competent writing and you can't have characters complain about their feelings every two seconds and their personal quest as "chosen ones". Usually I wouldn't even be this "mad" about stuff like that but it's just weird to use Foundation of all SciFi material out there to tell a story that couldn't be more at odds with the generic hero's journey and you could still do it but you would need to use some creativity, not to mention how the Foundation material is the perfect opportunity to actually subvert the hero's journey trope.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 18, 2023 07:04
|
|
|
Snowmanatee posted:Okay, here's my speculation for who/what The Mule is: At some point this season Tellem, partially defeated by Gaal/Salvor, will try to transfer her consciousness to the boy Josiah. However Josiah's personality will be the one that survives, while keeping all of Tellem's powers (possibly through intervention by Gaal or Salvor). Traumatized by all this, and wanting to prevent anyone like Tellem from ever existing again, he goes on a quest to wipe out all mentalics in the entire galaxy, which involves conquering it, and becoming "The Mule." Ya and it would be a typical example of (modern) SciFi writing in TV. It makes your setting look small because everything has to connect back to a single point in your story for some cheap mystery/"twists", not to mention that it once again goes against the whole theme of Foundation. A book written about the large scale effects of society/history. But then you create a TV show that already feels rather "empty" (and not like an empire consisting of trillions and trillions and citizens including countless worlds) and where everything in the story leads back to a few hand selected people throughout history. The rest of the universe might not even exist so little do they seem to matter.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 1, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
LinkesAuge posted:My theory (and it's ofc not spoilers because none of this exists in the books): ... Looks like I got pretty close to it. Besides that: So the (First) Foundation is now destroyed? Interesting.... I have honestly no idea where they are going with all of this and how any of this has even anything to do with the whole basic concept of the books. They continue to pay lipservice to it, talk about mathematics, science etc. and yet still act like Psychohistory is deterministic (which it clearly isn't) or some sort of elaborate plan (the show underlines this "misunderstanding" by making AI Seldon an active part). Also holy wheel spinning @ the Gaal's adventure sideplot. Im between curious and afraid how that whole story is going to be relevant for the overall plot.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 8, 2023 05:07
|
|
|
Snowmanatee posted:No, Terminus is destroyed. It's suggested the Foundation has already become greater than its original home and survives. The captain of the Invictus says in this episode "This is the first time for a lot of us, but everyone in the company plays today." They were putting on an act--not in the sense of an illusion where Terminus survives, but convincing Day that he'd won. I'm not sure if the Invictus was also destroyed or jumped away when it hit the planet, but in any case a lot of people were sacrificed in this "performance." The show really hasn't established in any way that the Foundation has grown outside of Terminus, certainly not in an organised way outside of their "religion". I mean even Terminus itself STILL looks like a backwater planet/colony (which honestly did annoy me a bit, the "growth" of the Foundation as presented has been rather underwhelming). That of course doesn't mean you are wrong in that it's absolutely possible the show will pretend like there is suddenly this big ("other") Foundation out there but it would be rather hilarious (the last other Foundation effort we saw were people literally trying to lynch Foundation people...). I'm also not sure if I understand you correctly in regards to the "performance". Are you saying the whole "planet destruction" including the Invictus was just an illusion? Maybe I'm completely wrong but the whole black hole sucking up the planet thing was caused by the Invictus (and I'll of course ignore the fact that this isn't how black holes work, even if you would drop a big one in the middle of a planet) so it's definitely destroyed.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 8, 2023 06:14
|
|
|
The problem with the whole decoy idea is that it doesn't make sense. The first Foundation NEEDS to be "visible", it needs to spread its influence, develop/save technology/knowledge and EXPAND, that is its whole purpose and you completely undermine that by "hiding" it. That's the whole "job" and purpose of the second Foundation but its a "job" because its in service of protecting(!) the first Foundation. The First Foundation isn't some abstract ideology or organisation that can just be discarded and the plan still works, that would 100% undermine the whole concept between the Foundation(s). If that were the case and the Foundation could have work as an "idea" (ideology) then Seldon could have created it as a "religion" from the very beginning but that's not what he did. It is actually very important that it has a clear physical manifestation as an organisation/society. Seldon doesn't want to (re)create some sort of perfect/specific ideology, he wants to safe SOCIETY itself. That also means he doesn't really care about "ideology" per se because the whole story (certainly in the books) is about the rise and fall of "empires" (I mean the literal book named "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" was Asimov's inspiration for the story) so the Foundation isn't necessarily there to create some new utopian society, it might just be another "Empire" but it will at least be one where society isn't in a "dark age". All of this is a lot more highlighted with the whole purpose of the "Encyclopedia Galactica" which is even namedropped in the last ep but has mostly been ignored in the show despite the fact that its existence, ie collecting the knowledge of humanity, is an extremely important point/goal of the (First) Foundation and fuels/explains its "rise" and technological development. The thing is all of that can't be achieved if the First Foundation has to hide or would be destroyed. It needs to be an ACTIVE player in the galaxy to fill(!) the gap left by a declining Empire. That's another MAJOR problem the TV show currently has, it FAILS to communicate that the Empire is actually in decline. I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags because this show is really nothing like the book anymore but at this point in time the First Foundation has to compete with other(!) local powers around it while the Empire is declining and too busy dealing with other threats. That is however not the case in the show. We don't really get to see other powers or "threats" to the Empire. We do have "Dominion" as a faction in this season but not only are they invisible, apparently their whole leadership can just be taken out without any repercussions. So they kinda pay lipservice to a "decline" in regards to Empire being "forced" into an alliance with Dominion although it doesn't really make sense because all we see is that Empire still has full control of interstellar travel technology (ie the Spacers) and its military is still overwhelming compared to anything else so who is going to challenge Empire? It's bad worldbuilding. But even if we ignore that, the show actually visually(!) undermines the "decline" of the Empire. The destruction of the space elevator in S1 is a MAJOR event and can be seen as an analogy for the Empire, it LITERALLY crushes into itself. What do we get in S2? A planetary orbital(!) ring that would be a far bigger technological achievement by several MAGNITUDES. It can't be overstated what an effort that construction would be compared to a "simple" space elevator. That is the opposite of decline, it's the visual language for "high point of a civilization" akin to the Pyramids in Egypt. You can of course try to "excuse" that with arguments like its just a vanity project of Empire to compensate etc. and while you could try to justify it that way it's still sending very confused/mixed signals in a narrative sense. It's also an odd choice because the Foundation visually stagnates(!) in its planetary development. Everyone here probably knows the pictures of chinese cities in the 70s/80s compared to today. Now imagine that for a far more advanced civilization and a society that is driven towards achieving maximum progress. If any planet should have gotten "orbital rings" then it should have been Terminus (it would even helped to make it more credible that its able to resist Empire). Imo we are facing the "Star Wars problem" here (see the New Republic/Resistence). The writers think the First Foundation needs to be that plucky underdog and that is reflected in its visuals and how its portrayed. The problem here is that the Foundation is only an "underdog" compared to other (major) powers, not that it's supposed to be some backwater planet for the whole story. Its whole reason to exist is to eventually replace the Empire, ie become an "Empire" itself. Again, this story is based around the RISE and FALL of Empires, Foundation IS such an Empire. THE Empire we see in the show is supposed to be the "fall" part but Foundation is the other side we should be exploring, ie the RISE of an Empire (and what struggles that entails, ie the crises...). That will be undermined if the show keeps pretending like the Foundation is the "Star Wars Rebels" equivalent throughout the story. That was okay in season 1 but there needs to be PROGRESS and it would be hilarious (in a bad way) if they really decide to "reset" the First Foundation or keep it as some sort of "hidden" organisation (which again misses the WHOLE point). It's a reason why the Foundation trilogy is seen as the "granddaddy" of space operas because it spearheaded this kind of GALACTIC scale storytelling with multiple factions etc. and stakes that go beyond a single character/location. The show sadly likes Empire a bit too much to the detriment of the overall story and instead of developing other "players in the game" we are wasting time with all the Gaal/Salvor/Seldon subplots/adventures. They could at least have used them to explore other "factions" but nope, nothing there. The thing is they KINDA did it in season one but again, it's just at the wrong scale. It's more "terrorists" and "small random people" than "nations" and "leaders". LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Sep 9, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2023 22:11
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:I feel like this thread has done a decent job of portraying something that maybe the show isn't portraying as heavily; Hari Seldon is a bit of a hypocrite. The struggle of whether or not he cares about individuals in the greater scheme of psychohistory seems to not have a definitive answer, to the detriment of this thread's goodwill towards the show (via certain posters, not that I remember who you are, this isn't a callout) and the detriment of Gaal and Salvor's trust in him. He might tell Poly he doesn't want people to die needlessly but that doesn't restrict him from considering the sacrifice of Foundation 1 needful. The show in general just doesn't do a good job in communicating the true SCALE of Psychohistory and what Seldon's "goal" is. My previous post kinda dealt with it already but it can't be overstated enough that Seldon (and the story) is rather apolitical in a sense. It doesn't explore if Democracy, Autocracy etc. is the "right" form of government, whether or not people should have certain rights or anything to that degree. In many ways its the ultimate utilitarian approach on a galactic scale of millenia(!) at the minimum. The "argument" is pretty much that at these scales and over so much time you wouldn't worry about ideology or questions like that because they are just an emergent property of human society itself and as long as humanity is doing fine (ie there is civilization/technological progress) everything else will go through the normal ebbs and flows of human history. That's why the Foundation isn't there to create a certain kind of society or some utopia, it's to "compensate" for such a low point (dark age) in human history. It's there to reduce the overall suffering humanity will experience, not to "fix" all of humanity or that it's the final solution to all of humanity's problems. At best you could argue that Seldon's Foundation will hopefully lead to a "better" society because it is fueled by "science" and the ultimate long term perspective but even there it needs to be acknowledged that the Foundation is extremely technocratic (which can be an issue and is also somewhat explored in the books). The show on the other hand is a bit too busy in setting up a typical "good" (plucky sciences Rebels) vs "evil" (Empire) scenario. Empire is obviously framed as your standard tyrannical and dystopian government which isn't "wrong" in itself but distracts from the "bigger" point, especially because that "bigger point" isn't really explored. As viewer of the show you will probably think that the Empire itself is THE problem but that's not the point the original story was trying to make. If Empire would have been "stable" or could have adapted to the times then Seldon wouldn't have had any issues with it. He wasn't ideologically opposed to it or some sort of Revolutionary and that is a very(!) important aspect that gets swept under the table in the TV show. I mean we even get new characters this season which are obviously there to conspire against Empire and bring about his downfall. The thing is that would totally be fine but I think the show communicates it in such a way that the audience will CHEER for Empire's downfall, that it is a GOOD thing the tyrannical Empire is going down while missing the whole tragic aspect to that because these factors aren't supposed to make things "better", they should exist to show how the actual fall of the Empire happens but that also means they are the cause of that galactic Dark Age... So I'm not sure the show will managed to communicate that the end of the Empire is supposed to be "tragic" (like how the [romanticized] version of the Roman Empire is often viewed to be a "tragic" event in history), not a triumph. I'm also curious how the show would try to depict the fallout of an actual collapse of Empire because currently I fear that the story will be reduced to "tyrannical Empire" is directly replaced by "good science people" which would TOTALLY miss the whole point of the original work to a maddening degree. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 9, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2023 22:34
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:This Day thought he was an outlier but he ended up destroying the planet like all the other Days would have. The "outlier" thing is odd btw because it is once again a misunderstanding of psychohistory. It simply does not care about individuals, noone is inside or outside of it. The whole point is that in the long run even the biggest "outlier" will be insignificant to societal forces at the largest scale. It doesn't matter if Hitler exists or doesn't exist, wars will be fought, forms of governments will be explored and discarded etc. but all of that happens within a bigger societal context/development no individual can escape. Hitler can significantly shape the political landscape of his time but he didn't shape all the developments leading up to it nor will he shape everything that comes after him (and yeah the whole clone dynasty part of the show COULD be seen to undermine the concept of Psychohistory but the show and TV Seldon don't frame it that way so I guess clone Cleons are "okay" for Psychohistory). I think that's the concept people always struggle with. Psychohistory doesn't mean individuals don't have an influence on what is happening, it just says given enough individuals over a long enough time it will average out to certain societal "trends". Without the American and French Revolution it is possible that the spread of democratic nations would have been (significantly) delayed but even outside of these specific events there were already very big societal (philosophical) developments at play which created the environment for these revolutions (and a lot of the same forces also paved the way for communism/communist revolutions). But that also doesn't mean that psychohistory is some exact or deterministic prophecy. The smaller the time scale and the smaller the population you look at is the more imprecise it becomes. That's why it also comes with very important axioms, ie it requires a society (galaxy) with only humans (or human-like minds, ie Robots that think like humans/are made by them are "acceptable") and that the population in the model is large enough. It also means that Seldon's plan is a "best case scenario" that doesn't pretend like it's an inevitable outcome. The "inevitable" outcome is just that there will be a (significant) "dark age", that's really all. His plan exists to get the best outcome out of a bad situation but that requires ACTION(!) and is the reason why the Foundation is required in the first place because Psychohistory is not deterministic, societal action DOES matter. The point in the (original) story is just that it is already too late for the Empire or to completely prevent the Dark Age, maybe climate change is an appropriate comparison nowadays, we know the damage is done and we can predict various scenarios with more or less consequences but we are past the point of "no damage due to climate change". Now we try to reduce the "dark age", ie how bad climate change might become. The funny thing is that the show did kinda pick up on that comparison early on with Gaal's home planet so I guess Psychohistory is kinda topical if you look at it from that angle. You of course have to take psychohistory at face value that a chaotic system like human society could ever be "predicted" (even at a macro scale) though it is interesting to view it in a similar light as our eco system in the context of climate change (which is also a chaotic/complex system) but it seems like people too often assume that the "error" in Psychohistory is somehow about individuals throwing it off or that its trying to pit "individuality" against "society" (it's like saying scientists are wrong about climate change if suddenly a giant meteorite crashed into earth). I'm still not sure if the show reflects Asimov's own idea and wants to "discuss" that or if it is a truely different version of/take on "Psychohistory". It's hard to tell whether or not Day misunderstood what Psychohistory is within the actual story as a character and that's why he made that whole speech or if that's just a reflection of how the show understands/portrays Psychohistory because TV Seldon has also made various comments that point in this direction. Maybe(?) a spoiler, I honestly don't know at this point because the show is already showing it but let me be careful: It is also important to note that Gaal/Salvor/the Mule/"Mentalics" aren't "outliers" because they are "special individuals", they are "outliers" because they go against the basic axioms of Psychohistory, ie they aren't normal "humans" (especially in regards to how they can "control/influence" other humans). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Sep 10, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 10, 2023 06:15
|
|
|
With the presence and charisma of Empire/Lee Pace there is a good chance that the Mule will be a disappointment in any case (Mentalist antagonist lady this season is already horrible and not the "good" kind of horrible).
|
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 02:39
|
|
|
Big Bowie Bonanza posted:Yea Rachel House rules and she’s been playing Tellem great I don't care about the actress, the character was just a one note villain including your typical non-sensical confrontations and dramatic "haha, I will kill you in the most idiotic way possible". It also doesn't help that she leads a cult where the showrunner can't make up their minds if all the people in it are either stupid, evil or just ignorant because what other motivation can you have to go along with what she does? There is just no nuance to the character which isn't required for a good villain but Tellem's persona is also not a "fun" villain. She is manipulative / deceptive but in the most boring way, ie she doesn't require any "skills" or is shown as a competent manipulator, her power literally is "space magic" and her ambition is just as onedimensional. I wouldn't mind this sort of antagonist for a single episode as some sort of "side quest" but for the amount of time she got it just wasn't worth it. Btw a good antagonist/villain brings our heroes a new challenge (and I mean that on a deeper level) and/or changes them in some way. This can't be said about Tellem which is why Gaal/Salvor beating Tellem felt so anticlimactic. They are at the same place they were before they met her (and before that they just forced Gaal into decisions that weren't really authentic to her which can be to some degree explained by Tellem's mentalic manipulation but then you are back to a static character arc). The ONE consequence of meeting her, ie Seldon's "death", has even been taken BACK for some reason. Such fakeout deaths are also just another huge red flag. I hate fakeout deaths with a passion because there are exceptionally rare cases of them being well done instead of being a sign of poor writing. This whole sideplot on that planet has been nothing but wheel spinning and the whole reason for that is probably because they really want to connect it to the Mule somehow (ie the boy theory) but that doesn't really justify everything around it, its such a minor plot point which could have been achieved in other ways, not to mention that I really don't see the value if that theory even turns out to be true. Open Source Idiom posted:He's psychic and he's capable of invading Gaal's mind / her past. It could just be as simple as that. It's mystery box filler instead of actually developing the world they portray. Not only that but it's not even efficient mystery box storytelling. As controversial as Lost was for that type of storytelling, it always delivered on the character side, ie the "mystery box" was at least deeply connected to the characters or made sure that it furthered character development so even if you ignored the mystery box you could still enjoy the characters. None of that is the case here. We didn't gain ANY new insight into Gaal or Salvor as characters, their past, their inner conflicts, their relationships etc. All we get are vague hints at plot threads which aren't even interesting. Salvor's future death is made this HUGE thing despite the fact that they have given their audience zero context why they should care (and no, Salvor dying in an unknow context is on its own not enough) and the same is true for the Mule which is treated like this great threat but again, NOTHING is established about him. Why are we wasting time in setting up these "mysteries"? That would be acceptable as little thing here and there but the show treats them as the MEAT of its story. It's one of the reasons why Gaal and Salvor have achieved nothing in this season so far (and that includes character development, even their relationship is still at a very basic level including a minor inconsequential conflict) because the story is just super unfocused. PS: This has also infected the Empire side of things, its no accident that we have this big "who dunnit" around the assassination attempt and general mystery around the Cleons while exploring the characters/the bigger world has taken a step back. Just to remind everyone, this show is about an Empire in decline and how best to overcome the looming Dark Age. How much time did this season spent on what a declining Empire in this context looks like? And yes the whole Cleon mystery can (and probably will) be used in that context but just doing that is somewhat narrow and will imo also further undermine the whole themes of the Foundation series (if the show even cares for them). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 11, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 11, 2023 07:01
|
|
|
Caros posted:With respect, this feels like an issue with you not really getting subtext with regards to the empire declining. You imply subtext that the show simply doesn't have, I can't be bothered to reply to everything but this point makes it really funny after the finale ep: quote:We have tons of signs of empires decline in both dialogue and in world building. Empire sent fourteen ships to terminus. They sent hundreds, possibly thousands to sanction anachreon and thespis. Because that big old fleet ain't what it used to be. I guess while you were looking for subtext the show didn't communicate to you that it wasn't just fourteen ships so yeah this is now kinda funny to read. Also @ finale ep: This was "Exposition - the show" with so many moments where characters have to explain what happened, why things happened, how they were set up behind the scenes etc. It was a finale devoid of any real tension and its pacing was just all over the place, not to mention that the decline of the Empire is more and more just the result of active intervention by the Foundation (Seldon himself) instead of being a result of societal forces. This show is so worried about creating mysteries and having "twist" moments that it forgets to tell an engaging story on the way. So many parts of this finale didn't have a proper setup because they decided to hide information from the audience and then we get characters clumsily explaining what they feel and what happened... I also can't stress enough that the Vault is now just space magic that can do anything. I have no idea why or how the Vault is such powerful technology and why it wouldn't have been used far earlier and in other ways a lot more. It is the ultimate MacGuffin and Deux Ex Machina rolled into one. PS: "Timetravel" with Gaal has of course to continue because the show needs its chosen one and just making it more and more obvious that humanity apparently can only be saved with this single individual around. Maybe the Cleon line should be replaced by the Gaal line, I mean she seems to be that perfect leader everyone needs and that the Foundation can't exist without (no thematic issues here at all). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 15, 2023 08:58
|
|
|
Welsper posted:Vault is a 4d object, empire FTL uses a singularity to transit a 4d space, being able to intercede in that space kinda makes sense The problem isn't just the technology, it's what it implies. How did Seldon get access to it, where did it come from and why does noone else have it? It just feels out of place, like it was some alien ancient artifact, not something that was produced by the Empire itself but I guess we just have to accept that Seldon is now such a genius he developed and constructed(!) all of this on his own and also managed to keep it a secret. But even if we ignore that, why wasn't it used in other situations like this? Just think back to the events of season 1... I also have no idea why this plan of destroying Empire's fleet had to wait for this specific moment. There is no context or reason given why this couldn't have happened A LOT earlier in the story. The Spacers are in the same situation as they were when the show started and even if we ignore that, WHY did we have to sacrifice Terminus? There was nothing about this plan that required this to happen. If the Spacers have to sacrifice themselves in any case then why does it matter that the fleet is in one place and why did they bother defending the planet at all? As far as the show communicates it the Spacers are in control of where ships are going. They could have collectively flown the whole Empire fleet into space objects at any other time too and the Empire literally couldn't do anything about it. This whole "plan" just falls apart if you just think about it for a second, not to mention the fact that the Spacers and their complete control over space travel were a bad idea to begin with because it meant a space travel monopoly for Empire and thus no chance/opportunity for other factions to arise as (military) threat. I mean how does an Empire at a galactic scale fall apart if it has a complete monopoly over the means to wage effective wars? The only way would be through internal struggle and in a way we get that with the Spacers but it's just too simple/easy so you wonder why this hasn't happened before and why they didn't even put in any effort to show growing resentment towards Empire. It also once again fails on a thematic level because this "Spacer Rebellion" wasn't linked to a declining Empire, it was linked to them basically being Slaves but that's a situation which apparently has existed for eternity. Good writing would have used the Spacers in a much more nuanced way. Don't let them be an outright monopoly, just something that gives Empire a big edge in space travel. That would still allow other factions in a reasonable way and thus as military threat. From that you get rebellions/conflicts at the edges of the Empire, conflicts Spacers are involved in and where they suffer increasingly more casualties because Empire keeps throwing them at that problem. You can even have Empire demand a lot more Spacers in these war times than they were needed before and thus the increased pressure of needing more and more Spacers for the ever escalating conflicts leads to a situation where the Spacers just have enough (ie the decline of the Empire is reflected in how Spacers are treated). Now they don't need to conveniently destroy the whole fleet of Empire (which is just ridiculous on so many levels), they just need to stop their support for Empire and now Empire's military loses its biggest advantage which in turn means the ongoing conflicts are now an even bigger problem. All of this also plays A LOT nicer with the idea of Psychohistory (and is something you could actually reasonably predict) because now it's all a result of a bigger political/military development over a certain period instead of a single event where suddenly the whole status quo is turned upside down because Seldon directly had his hands in it (the show doesn't even address it but after the destruction of the whole Empire fleet just think how disruptive that is to everything and what the implication is if Spacers and the Foundation are the only two factions who effectively control the means for space travel). DaveKap posted:I have thoughts that I'll post later but for now I'll just say I wish the fight choreographer and director did a better job of not cutting Day's fight every 2 seconds and Hari mansplaining to Gaal with bad dubbing as she's weeping next to him made me laugh really hard. The show just loves its useless, overindulgent narration and overexplaining every single little moment, even emotions and obvious thoughts need to be conveyed through narration. The show has neither trust in its audience nor in its own ability to convey these things. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Sep 15, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 15, 2023 12:17
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:I guess actively hastening Empire’s downfall will reduce the length of time of the “age of darkness”? The problem is it cheapens the whole idea of psychohistory if Seldon (and the Foundation) are actively bringing about the downfall of Empire. Imagine a friend coming up to you and saying he found a scientific way to make predictions of the future and you ask him "oh really? Can you predict what we both will do this weekend?" and his answer to that is "Well, I'm going to shoot you and you will die because of it". You laugh about it and go your separate ways, then the weekend comes and your friend shows up and actually shoots you and you die. After that he stands over your body and just screams "You should have believed in Psychohistory, this is exactly what it predicted!" That is the show and why it's kind of ridiculous, it undermines what psychohistory is and what Seldon really wants to achieve. I have written it previously but Seldon (in the books) doesn't want to see the Empire die. He cares about humanity (and its "progress") in general and would be totally fine with the Empire. The show obviously leans heavily into the whole "evil Empire"-angle and thus makes you feel that the Empire itself is the "sickness" that needs to be cured for a "better future" but in the books the Empire is more a reflection of humanity and a general societal decline so there the Empire is just a "symptom" of the sickness and why getting rid off the Empire isn't even a goal, it's end is afterall what will lead to a dark age. It's also constantly highlighted that there WILL be a dark age, there is no "good" ending to a fallen Galactic Empire (its not a revolutionary story), it's all about reducing the time this "dark age" lasts and there is also no suggestion that hastening its downfall would be positive, especially considering that the Foundation relies on the fact that it can develop in its shadow. That is an important distinction and I really don't think this comes through in the show, especially now that we have Demerzel who acts as another "evil" force behind the scenes and controls Empire instead of Empire's (the actual institution, not the person) actions being a result of a slow societal/political and bureaucratic issues. The bureaucratic part in the books is especially important because its hammered home how unwieldy the Galactic Empire has become, the scale of it is mind-numbing and it's supposed to consist of 25 million(!) planets with a total population of 500 quadrillion(!!!) and yet the show definitely doesn't give you that feeling, we barely see anything outside of pretty empty places and a few barren planets. Now imaging that this Empire with 500 quadrillion people is worried about Seldon and his little group. It also doesn't help that the Cleons give you the feeling that they micromanage this whole Empire, not to mention that the existence of the Cleons "individualizes" the Empire and thus it never feels like they are just the tiniest tip of an iceberg or simply the face of an unfathomably large galactic governing system that mostly runs itself under the burden of its enormous bureaucracy (though I think you could still have made it work with the Cleons if you changed their role/depiction a bit). That the show centers the downfall of the Empire around the Cleons and Seldon (or very specific events/actions) misses everything Asimov wanted to explore with the story around the Foundation, ie it's a SciFi case study of the age old historical question of "why" and its answer "well, it's complex". You could say the TV show makes the same mistake as a (bad) history student trying to boil down the fall of the Roman Empire to a single (or even a couple of) bad Emperor(s) and their decisions. Now you might argue that makes for a better story/"drama" but I would argue otherwise. Not only is that type of story really played out, there is something fascinating about the inevitably of larger forces and you could easily have played up the whole tragedy of Empire trying to prevent the fall/decline while the circumstances and larger factors simply conspire to prevent any escape from that outcome or show how all these factors lead Empire to bad decisions. That would of course have needed more nuance for Empire (the Cleons) so you can't use them just as the "bad guys" (and in season 1 I still had hopes in that regard, at least early on) but instead the show chose to go down a well trodden path and season 2 ends with your generic villain that does the typical villain stuff (and the only reason it's not a total disaster is due to Lee Pace being far too good for this show). So the show sadly ends up as being the SciFi version of the "Great (Wo)Man Theory" and thus wastes its chance to do something different and you have to wonder why you'd even want to adopt the Foundation series if all you do is to tell the most generic space opera story.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 16, 2023 22:12
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 22, 2024 08:53 |
|
|
Big Bowie Bonanza posted:I stopped reading here because the rest of the post is entirely irrelevant if this is where you’re starting from. Did you skip the first episode where they clearly explain this? The show literally tells you that the purpose of the foundation is to shorten the dark age and a pretty clear way to do that is to make the empire decline & collapse faster so you can get to the rebuilding part, like the person you’re responding to says. It seems like you misunderstand what psychohistory predicted? The show didn't do that, at no point does Seldon say the Empire has to die earlier so the dark age is shorter. It's probably something you FEEL the show tries to tell you because it's what the plot is geared towards but it's once again just a misunderstanding of Psychohistory and the whole setup of the story and like I said a big problem of the show is that it puts so much emphasis on setting up Empire as villain that the audience would of course think the Dark Age is all about Empire being evil and if Empire would be "better" then it wouldn't happen at all. It's also a rather random assumption that a faster declining Empire would help Foundation, you could just as easily argue that it would give Foundation less time to prepare for the complete chaos of the "Dark Age". However he most important point in this context is that it really doesn't matter how fast the Empire declines because it's already on a path that makes it (practically) near impossible to prevent and that the timespan of the decline is overall rather insignificant compared to the "Dark Age" (the show itself establishes in ep1 that Empire will fall within 500 years followed by a dark age of 30.000 years and the best(!) case scenario for Seldon's plan is to reduce that to "just" 1000 years). Maybe you should have read the rest of my post to understand why it's even thematically a very bad idea to link the existence (or a faster decline) of the Empire to shortening the Dark Age. It's the reason why I gave this example you quoted in the first place because if you do this then you are just creating a self-fulfilling prophecy (at best) and that's NOT what psychohistory is (which is why the Second Foundation is needed in the first place). There is a reason why Asimov CHOSE to largely ignore the Empire from the perspective of the Foundation, that wasn't done by accident, it had a logical, narrative and thematic reason. But like I said, the show is already contradicting itself because it doesn't even follow the "original" plan, it has conscious versions of Seldon changing the plan on the fly and reacting to ongoing events and not only that, it's reacting to singular individuals and in very dramatic ways (and we haven't even talked about whatever is going on with the Prime Radiant being some sort of super intelligence itself who now actively intervenes). One could argue that Seldon in the show does kinda act like the Second Foundation in the books but even there it's a lesser version of that because the Second Foundation took great care about how it interacted with the galaxy and to which degree "manipulation" was even okay, it was all about very subtle intervention instead of what Seldon is currently doing in the show (that's why the Second Foundation had to be hidden/a secret). This also follows another important axiom of psychohistory, ie that the population should remain in ignorance of the application of psychohistory because otherwise it changes it's behaviour. In the show Seldon did at one point allude to this fact but the show doesn't really seem to care about that. All of this is even further complicated by the fact that Gaal can see the future in the show, another factor that is now in constant conflict with the whole concept of psychohistory (and kinda trivializes it). If you look at it from a plot/concept perspective Gaal should really be a villain/antagonist to the Foundation. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Sep 17, 2023 |
|
#
¿
Sep 17, 2023 14:21
|
|