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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
Just a bit of quiet griping here: I'm a little bummed that out of my three commander decks I've built based around precons, only one of them actually seems to be fit for regular upgrades. Kudos to the Fae Dominion deck, because it turns out that's actually a pretty good pace for upgrading on a budget: fairy power players don't come out that often, but the fact their thing is equal parts 'tribal love of a creature type that's always at least sort of around' and 'general black/blue horseshit' means that there's always something they would like in a set, even if it's not gonna redefine the playstyle or even necessarily a must-have. My MKM packs brought Lazav, Wearer of Faces and the Faerie Snoop; those aren't making me salivate, but I can put them in and they do sorta slap!

But one of my other decks is the Thirteenth Doctor deck, and that's a very strange one to seek out upgrades for. Theoretically, 'cast from outside the deck' is a broad umbrella that encompasses a good chunk of different keywords and a handful of other effect types on top of it, so it should be something that crops up everywhere... and yet it just doesn't really get much out of things. Outside of Adventures which themselves aren't very common or all that fast, the only recent-ish (as in, 'current over the time I've been playing') set that's even served up something that Paradox can trigger off is Ixalan with Discover, and Discover actually isn't that common. Or at least, I don't have much of it.

And Blame Game is hard to upgrade in a really weird way. You'd think its whole gimmick being a new keyword that the set it's from is built around, but the deck itself is just getting a bit too clever with it. To the set itself Suspect is clearly a buff, with the double-edged sword of 'menace/can't block' generally coming out in the affected creature's favor; you've got red and black having cards that suspect your own stuff or want to be suspected, and blue wiping out suspect on enemies. The only card I've seen treat it like a debuff is green (Airtight Alibi), which makes sense since green loves their big blockers. But Blame Game uses the fact that Nelly tacks goad onto suspect to basically turn it into an offensive debuff, which ironically means that she can't use much of the red Suspect cards in the set itself.While I feel like I can find upgrades for it, they feel tangential to the deck's angle rather than playing into it; a lot of targeted tapping from Eldraine to ice out some blockers, some politics shenanigans with stuff like Wedding Ring. It almost doesn't need the help, Blame Game is surprisingly good right out the box, but given part of the reason I got it was to have a white deck to flesh out, it's kinda disappointing.

This is more just me talking out my thoughts than anything focused, but I wouldn't turn down any suggestions on how to flesh out those more difficult decks that I might not be thinking about.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Feb 13, 2024

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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

MrL_JaKiri posted:

First thing: not every set will have upgrades for every deck, or even cards that will have any relevance to every deck. Commander is an eternal format, you've got over 30 years of card design to work with and the odds that a relevant card will be put into a standard legal set is pretty small, even for precons from around those sets. Explore old cards instead, there are much weirder and likely stronger cards out there.

Second thing: I think you're getting over-fixated on certain mechanics when it comes to seeing synergies.

I think this mindset might be coming from a history with Yu-Gi-Oh. Not only are combos there a lot more arbitrarily nonsense to the point where you can basically only trust either an in-archetype combo or exactly what you found on Youtube, but getting historical cards in paper just isn't really plausible in Australia. To an insane degree, in fact; I wanted to build a deck based on a weird rogue archetype that was last printed in 2018, and literally could not find most of them.

I'm kinda new to this weird and wonderful world of being able to just... buy a single card and put it in a deck.

(But also I do like opening packs, and had some nasty positive reinforcement through Fae Dominion actually upgrading really well with the approach of 'just buy the set with a buncha fairies')

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

LanceKing2200 posted:

Faeries, Dragons, and Bears too maybe. You can do Unicorns and Phoenixes, but they have very little support and probably won't be able to keep up.

Fairies might have a problem that they're very much much 'dark fairies', which is a bit of a niche subgenre as far as kids go.

I have been surprised at what sort of creature types don't have that sort of support at all, though. I was spitballing with a friend what a fish deck would be like (in part because the Frost Fair Lure Fish looked like an awesome inclusion for something like that), and and while we theoretically found a dynamic for it around including the various other 'aquatic' creatures, it was weird how you'd have to go out-of-type for the commander, because the one fish legendary creature doesn't care about fish. We ended up running with Yasova Dragonclaw with the angle of 'she's gone fishing, and it's gotten REALLY out of hand'.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Feb 14, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
I just started seeing some of those cards in the Dogmeat commander deck, and oh god, I'm tempted to get it solely to blend with my Thirteenth Doctor deck. The Junk Jet alone looks like the most horrifying inclusion.

https://twitter.com/MTGGoldfish/status/1760022883160498224?t=HUDQ-BcMjL2eaE6diSnNNw&s=19

"Oh god they just got a paradox trigger for free and now Ryan Sinclair's gonna swing for 8 and then cascade for 8"

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

N-N-N-NINE BREAKER posted:

Oh I haven't seen Ryan Sinclair before. It's too bad most (all?) of the power reduction stuff is in black since there's no doctors in black

There is a companion in black, Vislor Turlough slipped in with the Masters of Evil deck. Pairing him with someone like Twelve would let Ryan run with a Doctor in a black deck, but you're gonna struggle to also get Thirteen in there, and she's the one that basically turns Ryan into a ramping font of cascades.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Toshimo posted:

I don't have any idea what you're trying to do here , but I don't think you do either.

Why would you ever want to reduce Ryan's power? It can only make him worse.

I think what they want is for Ryan to swing for 0 and then psuedo-cascade specifically for 0, therefore beelining straight for some of those weirdo '0-cost' cards with alternate casting approaches.

It's a weird gimmick, but if that's how it works I get it, because it relates to part of why Ryan is a surprisingly good early-game commander: he'll kick off with a psuedo-cascade for 2, which pretty reliably means he digs out those low-cost mana rocks, land grabs or equips that you want to have early on anyway.

EDIT: Okay, Jakiri's confirmed how Ryan actually works and it doesn't go so great for this strategy. Also means he doesn't quite work how I thought, but he's still capable of getting some real muscle on the board.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Feb 21, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
I respect people going for a mill victory, because they looked at the 40 life count, and decided that instead their wincon is to deplete the health bar that's over twice as long.

If I ever make a commander deck from scratch, it's gonna be Captain N'gath. Unfortunately it'd have to be completely from scratch, because I own like two Horrors.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Bellyaching about power level is dramatically overstated, just play whatever. It's 100 card singleton, unless you've got lots of tutors the in-game variance + politicking will vastly overwhelm the difference between a 7 and a 7.8 or whatever people are labelling things these days

I'm pretty sure every single one of my decks has cards that have been there the whole time, that I've either never drawn, or have drawn but only at times where they haven't been worth playing.

A landmark moment in this week's commander night for me was finally playing the Twelfth Doctor in my Thirteenth Doctor deck.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Mar 1, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Fajita Queen posted:

The commander community is extremely large, and the tiny minority of it that makes up the people who go on reddit etc. to loudly post their opinions gets commonly mistaken for an average representation of all commander players when the vast majority of them are much more chill than that in reality.

A lot of game stores will have one or two people like that, and a few have accumulated enough of them that they've driven out everyone who isn't like that, but most people I've played commander with or around don't get mad at things unless people are deliberately playing decks way too strong for the rest of the table and then they simply just don't play with that person anymore unless they switch decks.

The reputation for whiny pissy babies who can't handle interaction is wildly overblown online.

Yeah, at my locals the vibe is super chill, to the point where event the people who come with some high-powered poo poo mostly just get people being impressed. Like, building something that can reliably get lethal on board even in a format where it's hard to draw anything reliably is impressive regardless.

There's some people playing decks that get people mad, but I think it's just because some decks even at the right power level are kind of infuriating. No, the mill deck isn't stronger than the rest of the table, but it's dealing psychological damage when you mill out that combo piece you were praying to draw.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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Tarnop posted:

I don't play mill but there's one person in my group who likes to. It's fun in a local meta because we all adapted by running recursion and eldrazi titans but I could see it being frustrating if you play against it often enough to get annoyed but not often enough to be worth building for

Yeah, at my locals there's maybe 60-ish people there on average (basically the main Magic store in the center of a major city), and I think I've faced mill three times total. It's not common even when it's effective, I think because most people only have so much tolerance for being that person. You become the main foe of the entire table when you play mill, and I think most people don't really find that fun.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Mar 3, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
I've just had the dumbest revelation about my Thirteenth Doctor deck:

Its end goal is to eventually construct a Paradox engine capable of being a Commander-legal Paradox Engine.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 5, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

AlternateNu posted:

Congrats! Now you know how to rebuild the deck.

Honestly I've been on the right train for a bit, it just requires some weird barbs to actually get good enough to be useful. Sitting on an 8/8 that exile-casts the first thing it can and makes an entire board of creatures with effective vigilance beefier when it does sounds great, but you've gotta find some way to actually do real damage with them, or else you're worthless against a even modestly capable token creation engine.

But that does mean there's cause to include stuff like Old One-Eye, and that's hilarious.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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LGD posted:

confirming that the ixalan precons are excellent choices - all offer good value, are relatively even power-level wise (despite some differences), play well out of the box, have coherent themes and not too many mechanics (on a commander scale), and are all pretty amenable to inexpensive (or expensive) upgrades if they really fall in love with a given tribe


e: the other recent decks that I think work best as a set out of the box are probably still the Universes Beyond 40k decks, but I think they're mechanically more complicated than the LCI decks and the whole 40k tie-in thing might not be the best introduction to Magic as Magic - they'd still be my second pick for this purpose if there are sourcing issues with LCI or you want a second "battle box" experience

If we're talking Universes Beyond, Doctor Who is pretty solid in terms of across-the-board power level if you can get all of them. They definitely get more complicated, but with an experienced player to help track things, they're all pretty solid, although there's definitely a learning curve to some of them; the Thirteenth Doctor precon is a trial by loving fire for a new player, because there's a real difficulty with proper sequencing, while with the other decks the struggle is more just remembering to keep track of everything.

The new Fallout precons look like they're probably pretty balanced in relation to each other, too, and aren't packing anything too overly complicated. But I sort of predict that there might be a lesser version of the Masters of Evil problem, because it sounds like the Mothman deck is stuffed full of individual cards that are gonna be really sought after, so there's probably gonna be a single deck that's harder to find.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Mar 8, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I just got home with my Fallout deck preorder (still going to the actual launch event tomorrow, because I have to finagle a copy of Wild Wasteland somehow), and holy poo poo the Survivors deck is cracked. I knew it had some good cards, but this is genuinely hard to pick out the stars of. I need to go to that launch event solely to see which of these cards aren't as good as they look, because they can't possibly be.

Also, whoever came up with that idea for the Path of Ancestry art had to have felt like a goddamn genius. And they're right to.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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After playing a couple games with the Dogmeat deck and finding the sauce that the Thirteenth Doctor can use more (mostly junk token stuff), I'm realizing that Dogmeat itself is kinda too good to just dismantle for parts, so I'm now trying to figure out what I could replace things with.

I've found a combo that I think is some kind of sauce, built out of one of the worst cards for Thirteen's deck: Dan Lewis, whose whole thing is turning all noncreature artifacts into equipment. In Thirteen's precon that didn't even make any sense, there is a sub-theme of 'make a goddamn mountain of token artifacts' but equipping them for +1 doesn't make much sense. But Dogmeat is an equipment deck, and I'm immediately realizing some weird combos. Codsworth can tap for literally any artifact, Mister Gutsy gets a +1 counter any time any artifact hits the board. Masterwork of Ingenuity can copy loving anything.

Is there other stuff that can use this specific, weird combo? Am I actually onto something?

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Mar 9, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Open Marriage Night posted:

What are some good upgrades for the Dogmeat deck that mostly stick with the Fallout theme?

Like I said before, there's some decent co-synergy with the Doctor Who set that doesn't go too far against the theming; they're not completely compatible, but they don't look out-of-place together in the way that, say, the Eldraine-sourced upgrades do. Chewing on theming specifically (and sticking to more recent sets since I know them better), Dogmeat's deck probably wouldn't look too far apart alongside some New Capenna, Kamigawa or possibly even a select few Karlov Manor cards; granted, the only mechanical synergy I know comes from those is that Karlov Manor had some pretty nice white and red auras that would go nicely there. They'll all look a little conspicuous, though, the 'wasteland wanderer' angle doesn't match a lot of Magic. Bloomburrow and Thunder Junction show some promise, though.

That said, I feel like that's almost a Dogmeat-specific problem, the other Fallout decks don't have it. Caesar is basically a perfect fit for Mardu's aesthetic anyway, and the Mothman deck's general angle towards the wasteland's pestilence and chaos gives it a lot of company alongside a lot of stuff with similar theming, like a bunch of the Wilds of Eldraine cards and, while I haven't checked, probably a lot of Brothers War and Phyrexia, which probably also suit the science deck pretty well.


EDIT: I brought this up to a friend and she suggested Tarkir cards for the Dogmeat deck. The tone isn't quite there, but the content is.

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Mar 11, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!
I've played enough games to decode the true tier list for Commander. Ranking decks with a number is fake bullshit, here's the real tiers:

-Never stood a chance, but harmless
-Looks dangerous at a glance, actually easy to stop
-Never stood a chance, but can affect the game
-Can reliably get in a position to threaten lethal, still might not
-Can reliably take out an opponent
-Can win out of nowhere
-'This deck never plays this well, I swear'

I feel pretty proud that my weird jalopy of a pet deck, Thirteenth Doctor and Ryan Sinclair, has successfully reached that middle tier. Not bad for barely knowing the card pool and starting with a kinda bad precon.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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After really thinking about it, I've realized that while the Fallout decks are both better in general and of a more consistent power level to each other, I think Doctor Who was a more worthwhile set to have happen, and a more interesting one as a result.

I think that if there's a benefit to Universes Beyond as a play experience rather than just a marketing thing, it's that they allow the designers to play in a completely different space, and get weirder than usual. And Doctor Who was great for that; they went nuts with really unusual creature design, went high-concept on what effects to reuse like 'what if we tried to modernize suspend as a playstyle', and getting weird with stuff like a nonlinear Saga. But it's also not completely off on its own as a weirdo thing; I suspect paradox is a keyword idea they'll return to, and there's clearly some cards prodding at ways to make design-unfriendly effects like cascade; I wouldn't be surprised if some of those 'exile then cast' effects were prototypes for what became discover. The result is that the set's all over the drat place in power level and utility, and is kinda hard to 'rank' next to other commander decks, mostly because it was genuinely trying to get clever with it.

Meanwhile Fallout's decks and new cards are really good, but they're really good in ways that Magic kind of already has. Yeah, Dogmeat's a pretty good Naya enchantment/equips deck... but that's not really a new thing, Naya loves that poo poo normally. Same with Caesar and the usual Mardu operating procedures. Energy counters coming back is neat, but not really surprising nor exclusive to Fallout (and the fact we suspect the same of junk tokens in Bloomburrow says something about them, too). Really the only thing that's really getting weird and interesting is rad counters, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it's Mothman's precon that's either price-jacked or sold out in Australia.

I feel like you could reskin every new Fallout card not related to rad counters to not be a Fallout card, and they'd all be completely inconspicuous in a standard set. And that just feels like a wasted opportunity.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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GreenBuckanneer posted:

I'm surprised I haven't done a marvel crossover yet or DC

Marvel's coming in a year or two. I think after Final Fantasy.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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serefin99 posted:

Same. I'm not a huge Final Fantasy guy but I recognize a lot of the characters just from reading LPs of the games and such. Fingers crossed that we get a Gilgamesh card- ideally as a creature so I can actually build a commander deck around him.

Gilgamesh is perhaps the one UB character best suited for being a planeswalker.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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The most interesting part of the Final Fantasy UB is that it's gonna cut some stuff that has fans, and I'm genuinely not sure what. A Magic set is big, but you still can't put every FF game in equally, and there's gonna be one or two games that gets the shaft but aren't one of the minor ones like 2 that're just happy when Firion gets to be there. Even Doctor Who had an easier task ahead of it there.

My bet's on 8 and 13, those will get a smaller lineup than their fans are happy with, and 8's probably also most likely to not be well-represented mechanically. Special mention to 14, which is gonna be one of the 'star' games that probably gets one of the commander precons, but will still have to cut characters with fans.

EDIT: considering the opposite has some fun, too. What's the tiniest thing that will get a card?

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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Zurai posted:

I've been trying to decide which mechanics I think will be getting reprinted/updated/riffed on with the FF set. Classes are almost a certainty given how many different FF games use them. I wonder if the dragoons might riff on phasing (pay whatever to "jump", phasing them out, then when they phase in they deal damage to a target) or if that's too niche. Similarly, summoning seems easy by just creating big-rear end tokens, but I'm not sure that hits the flavor right.

I'm definitely very interested to see what they do with such a massive and wide-spread property.

My bet is there's going to be some kind of 'limit break' keyword. Not sure exactly what it would do, but I'm picturing maybe blending something like a Case or Saga enchantment into them, so a creature gets stronger if you do a certain thing while they're on the field, or have just had them around for a few turns.

At least in commander, I feel like that makes for a fun dynamic, where suddenly everyone's aware we need to deal with this fucker this turn.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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Toph Bei Fong posted:

In case the "rule zero" conversation was too easy and required too much talking to people, try this!

https://www.edhmultiverse.com/

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-edh-multiverse-a-model-of-the-edh-landscape/



I know their hearts are in the right place, and they present some useful questions, but...

This guy plays 'wins out of nowhere' decks, the only difference between tables is whether he says it's supposed to do that.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I brought my Drake posted:

Maybe it's patronizing of me but the least skilled and/or equipped player determines the power level if everyone wants a fair game. Bring what you got, and I will pick mine in response.

This can be very difficult to tell, though. Like, theoretically this is the road to precon-onlys, but even those aren't created equal.

If there's someone running Blame Game in a pod, my money's on them even if it's not precon-only.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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In an effort to try to get more general cards to make Mothman work, I bought a few All Will Be One packs. It was a good move, there's a lot of Proliferate in his colors, and the Mirrodin cards are pretty comfy in Dogmeat to boot. But now I have a lot of Toxic cards, and I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly do to include Toxic into a deck that wouldn't completely skew threat assessment into 'kill me first'. Even if you aren't trying to win with poison counters and are just trying to proc Corrupted, you still read as public enemy number one.

The most horrifying idea I have is to instead slip it into my Thirteenth Doctor voltron deck. You all already think I'm the biggest threat by commander damage, all adding poison counters does is increase the amount of clocks on you.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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MrL_JaKiri posted:

If you're not targeting yourself much then Venerated Rotpriest effectively gives your creatures "Ward: Get 1 Poison", which ideally isn't too salt inducing. Bloated Contaminator is good for both proliferate and being a good body to put counters on - I have one in my deck and the toxic 1 is largely flavour text.

Poison is very pod dependent though, the people that hate it really hate it.

Both of these are very good ideas for the angle that I've ultimately landed on for what to do with these poisoners: a Mirri commander deck, basically focused on stuffing the board with different varieties of threats that you ABSOLUTELY don't want to be swinging at you. Toxic, Aberrant, Cadira, Angel of Destiny. A couple deathtouches, my old friend the Foretold Soldier.

Basically, turn every single combat round into a Sophie's Choice.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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disaster pastor posted:

It's remarkable, though it probably should have been foreseeable, that after all this time WotC managed to print a viable aggro commander at a battlecruiser power level, and the result was immense popularity from ~half the audience and an immediate outcry of "ban it now, it can come down turn 5 or 4 or even 3 and then it'll attack a turn later and then what are we supposed to do?!" from the other ~half.

Now that I think about it, my Thirteenth Doctor deck doesn't get any hate because it's actually a threat, it gets hate because it requires me to be aggressive early.

Commander players are anti-violence in weirdly specific ways.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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W.T. Fits posted:

Mark Rosewater talked about how one of things they want to do going forward is doing at least one what they call "showcase" set each year, where they come up with a theme for the set, and then bring in characters and such from across the multiverse to fill out the set in the context of that theme. The theme for Outlaws was "villainy" so they brought back a bunch of prominent villains from the game's recent history. Same as how last year they had March of the Machine with the Phyrexian invasion happening across everywhere all at once, and if I remember right, one of the upcoming sets from around this time next year is supposed to be some kind of wacky races style set, so expect it to happen again.

A Wacky Races kind of thing seems neat, but I'm kinda wondering when exactly a new, central thing will turn up again. Maybe it's because I'm new to Magic and don't really know how they usually handle a post-'event' period, but it feels like everything post-MOM has been sorta struggling to find a story hook afterwards; kinda like how post-Endgame the MCU didn't seem to really know what to do with itself for a while.

Jace and Vraska wanting to lash out at the multiverse seems like it might become a thing, but it kinda hasn't yet, and I don't think they'd care about a race. And some of the non-planeswalker villains getting to unleash their bullshit outside their usual planes also seems like it has potential, but I'm not sure that's what they're actually doing, as much as someone like Eriette getting to run roughshod seems like it's a problem waiting to happen.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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Lurks With Wolves posted:

As someone who started paying attention to Magic a bit before War of the Spark, I'd honestly call this one of their better post-event story rollouts? They've always followed the same rough format: they gently caress around for a few sets because people are burnt out on big plots that have a few hints at what they're doing next, then they do some sets with increasing relevance to the big plot they're setting up, then a few sets to actually blow off the big plot they've been building for the past few years.

This post-big event story rollout is better because they told us the timeline for how they'll be going through that cycle from the start. This year they did the Kellen arc that was mostly low-impact dithering around the multiverse that had hints at what the next big arc was and ended with a confirmation. Next year they're doing sets that have their own arc but have increasingly important chunks of the big story they're building up to. The year after that, they're going to have the actual big dumb arc that's the climax for things they've been hinting at for years. And it's better because unlike previous story arcs we aren't sitting here going "wait, are they starting a new big dumb story arc yet, does any of this matter" because they actually set our expectations at the start this time.

That all makes some sense. I guess coming in with Wilds of Eldraine is an especially odd angle for that, because I've had this general knowledge that there have been stakes very recently (and then later seeing how rad the actual Phyrexian cards are), but every set I've actually been here for has kinda just felt like it's spinning its wheels, setting things in motion but without a lot of show as to what it could be.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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MrL_JaKiri posted:

MOM had this aspect to it that they killed off a lot of fan-favourite characters for the Vorthos crowd* but then the ones known by people less into the lore largely got off without a scratch. There's consequences if you shut off the part of the brain that knows who the face characters are.

*Multiple people independently saying "Look how they massacred my boy" about slobad, for example

Yeah, MOM had consequences on, like, the B and C-tier. Not the figures your average player has actual feelings about as characters, but the ones you'd see and go 'oh yeah that guy' and probably know the effects of, but only specific crowds actually had strong character feelings for.

The one I always think of is Etali. (Mostly because he was a very weird but interesting inclusion in Blame Game.)

Cleretic fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Apr 5, 2024

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I didn't realize how much gold they truly struck with Mothman until last night, when I was in a pod where three people had different Mothman decks. One person with the precon, one person going full mill, and me with a strategy of maxing out rad counters and capitalizing on the big graveyards.

We should've all played them in the same game just to see what sort of hell that produced. Probably a Cruel Somnophage swinging for triple digits.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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Yeah, this is something I remember Maldhound pointing out. We get mad at every other color getting to do their thing; we'll turn the cannons on a red deck daring to look like they're playing too fast, a blue deck forcing you to play mother-may-I, a black deck making our favorite stuff die. But we just don't do the same thing to a green deck going off, even when it's really obvious they are.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


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I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

serefin99 posted:

I think the most damning thing that can be said about EDHRec is that one of the 'high synergy' cards for Chainer, Nightmare Adept is Flayer of the Hatebound, a card that does not actually work with him because of rules bullshittery. Of course, it's only listed so high because people THINK it works with him.

Like others have said, EDHRec is a tool, and like only tool, what you get out of it can only ever be as good as what you put into it. If you offload the entire deck building process to randoms, well, of course you're going to be subject to the errant whims of the masses.

One of the things you have to learn about EDHRec is all the weird ways that cards might be spiking that aren't actually because it's good in that specific deck.

My favorite example is the 'precon problem'. If you're using a commander that was in a precon, a bunch of the cards will also be from that precon, and you have to figure out yourself if that's because they actually synergize really well, or if that number is just from other precon-based brews that just didn't take that deck out. Is Run Away Together popular for Tegwyll because it's good with Tegwyll, or because it came with Tegwyll?

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Batterypowered7 posted:

There's just gotta be some goofy rear end deck out there that would make good use of it.

Descent into Avernus requires, if I recall correctly, six upkeeps before it's across-the-board lethal to 40 life.

Do with that what you will.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

I think that final effect might actually be more powerful for disarming some playstyles than any effect on Farewell.

...and it happens to be my playstyle.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Batterypowered7 posted:

Only if you're playing Infect, Energy, Experience, or Rad. Do you play those strategies often?

Rad, yes. And a Thirteenth Doctor deck that builds up a bunch of +1/+1s.

Ironically, the one big counter strat it doesn't gently caress is Poison, which is probably the one people would most want to defuse.

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Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Toshimo posted:

It doesn't hurt a 13th Dr deck any worse than any board wipe that doesn't cost 6.

And Maro has specifically said that removing poison from yourself is off limits for design currently.

The thing is that all of Farewell's (or all the rest of this black equivalent's) effects are equalizing enough to have plausible collateral; sure, only one person at the table might be using artifacts heavily enough for exiling them all to matter, but it's still gonna hurt everyone somehow. A board wipe hurts me, but it hurts everyone else. But a counter wipe actually feels way more targeted, because I rarely see more than one player at a table using them.

This kinda just spurs me into making my Mirri deck, though, make sure I have something that can throw down that isn't counters. At least if you wanna board wipe Mirri, you board wipe everyone else including yourself.

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