Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ogres own. That is all.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

My general thoughts after trying out most of the factions:

Overall an excellent release, for a total war game. The only bugs I've run into so far that are real killers are the upkeep one (it makes me extremely leery of confederations) and the AI settlement battle rebuild cheat. AI is currently ignoring cooldown timers on destroyed barracides/towers and it makes settlement battles far more tedious and annoying than they should be. So much so that I've specifically been experimenting with AR stacks just for tearing through them.

I actually like settlement battles in concept and design, but a handful of bugs are really killing them for me presently. Namely the AI cheating above and the larger AI pathfinding issues people have noted in various ways. There is no way i'm playing on any difficulty that doesn't allow pause presently because if you're doing any kind of multi-front push, you can't trust your units to go where you tell them to in anything resembling a sane manner. Most of the time they actually do, but the pressure can turn on so quickly in settlement battles that you'll take crippling loses because of AI stupidity and bullshit instead of because your strategy was bad or anything like that. Which leads to...AR stacks, unfortunately.

And ya, the realms suck. They all need better reasons to be in there besides just the souls, or maybe the souls need some benefit to them as well? The realm loop just feels extremely unpolished and unmotivating. Did an AI get into a realm you needed 2 turns before you? Welp, ignore the loving portal because you ain't winning it. Also, hope you enjoy dealing with your neighbors portals because anti-player bias will see armies just pour out of them and beeline to you, despite the AI having stacks right next to the portal in a settlement that could easily just go close it.

Which leads to my final complaint, which I think is either a bug or the weighting of their AI choices is off, but the campaign AI is extremely...weird right now. It seems like it can get stuck in certain loops of inaction that cause it to just do very derpy and/or annoying things. Like never leaving a settlement even though they should be going out and doing something, or very incessantly attacking you, even if their poo poo stack they send every couple turns is just getting curb stomped. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the faction specific AI traits are just being weird right now and it will take some time to work out the kinks. Greenskins in every game I've played, once they decide they don't like me, just send endless waves of boys and goblins. Maybe some trolls, but its just the same tedious poo poo over and over again. Meanwhile their territory is being picked apart by rogue armies and daemon factions, but nope, gonna just keep sending poo poo stacks at the player!

All that said, solid bones, can't wait for IE, etc etc.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Taking the southern mountains as Miao suuuuuucks. A lot of the capitals only having 4 slots down there makes it extra painful, although I'm slowly tearing the ogres down. Thankfully they don't get underway stance, or that area would be impossible to take. I do suspect I'm doing it wrong and should be going tall as Cathay because of how the objectives are structured, but there is map to paint! And I can see some nice green territory down by the coast which could be useful for the bizarre Cathay tech of bonus income from all those ports they definitely do not have in their landlocked starting area.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Disagree, map owns, especially to attack as Nurgle since you're the one faction that can blob harder than Ogre's and actually drive them out of that spot. On the defense if enemy forces are trying to push in there you should be punishing the hell out of them for blobing up against you and your towers should be bringing the pain. You really need to concentrate your forces to take the victory point and hold it there, I think its one of the more fun maps as a plodder. Reminder: wind spells bounce off walls, you can turn tight areas like those lanes into slaughter zones with wind spells (vortexes are VERY high risk/high reward because if they come back atcha, lawl).

Speaking of winds, anyone else noticing a lot of annoying hidden geometry that will veer your winds off at random rear end angles? It is EXTREMLY annoying when I'm trying to delete peasant archers on rice paddy maps with Kairos.

Note: gently caress I'm bad at nurgle. My 2nd time around is going...better? I'm trying to be more deliberate and tall-ish building, but its really hard to get your income going and getting your army recruitment up. Maybe once you last long enough you start moving through your building cycles fast enough that you can recover fairly rapidly, but a bad battle early game just FUCKS a nugle game, hard.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Dr Christmas posted:

Did something screwy happen to my Khorne blood host army, or is this how it’s supposed to work?

The leader seems to be a unit of Exalted Bloodletters with a Herald’s portrait. I fought a big defensive battle with my blood host army as the main one and Skarbrand backing it up. All my units are close to full health. A while in, I get a message saying my commander is dead. However the unit is still there. I win without suffering a lot of casualties. When I come back, the entire blood host army is gone!

Was everything really riding on one model of a squad? Do blood hosts disappear immediately instead of suffer attrition when they don’t fight? It had technically been involved in a recent few battles, but mostly as reinforcements who didn’t do anything.

There is some definite strangeness around whatever is dedicated "leader". I lost a Lord when I was sieging and the enemy sallied out, but still won the battle. When the end turn completed, the army was completely bugged out. I couldn't replace the lord, attack, disengage, anything. The settlement now appears to be completely bugged out. Army just sits there, can't dismiss units, I starved it out but haven't taken over the settlement, no one will attack it, etc.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Carcer posted:

I like that they've changed ambush battles so that ambushed armies can escape if they handle it properly. It actually makes it a race to tangle them up and let as little get away as you can instead of the AI just marching to a point, stopping and going braindead.

Pro-tip: You should ABSOLUTELY walk into ambushes as ogres or nurgle in most cases. Free loving blobing and the enemy lines are coming to you?!?! Incredible~

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment


Even better, if you pay attention to the AI messages, they send agents to do that action on ruins all the time. Feels like something wasn't working quite right last minute and they had to turn if off in a messy fashion.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Randallteal posted:

Speaking of outdated systems, climate seems especially irrelevant this go-round.

See, okay, I think its actually better than its ever been, but they didn't really message it well. As far as I can tell, the campaign is specifically designed to enable tall play and enable different approaches per faction at the campaign level meta, not just "what is my roster? When does my economy come online?". I think how strong a lot of the campaign mechanics for factions are this go around (yea yea, they aren't all perfect, directionally) reinforces this thesis. Cathay is ABOUT unifying the empire (the no confed the LLs for the factions seems like a huge oversight here unless further down the line they plan to add some dynastic fight/schism thing ala twh2 empire) and protecting your land against the oncoming chaos threats while loosely allying with the ogres to keep your mountains and caravans safe. Kislev is about solidifying the core and then taking the fight straight TO chaos because you need to free/save Ursun, not just use him for info. So on and so forth. And climate per faction/LL is key to making that all work.

To be clear, this isn't an argument against them maybe doing something more interesting with it, but I think they're using it much better in this campaign than in the previous games.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ravenfood posted:

Gove the ability to assign retinues of ~4 units to a hero. When you search ruins with them, you trigger a melee battle with the local denizens of the ruin. Or failing actively controlling the retinue, just make it so that triggering a search battle gives some allied units that are somewhat variable.

I'm thinking something like the intervention forces you can send as the Empire.

Pfft, clearly we need a Darkest Dungeon/Mordheim minigame!

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

But why was every single ruin across the entire world and it's puzzles lizard-man themed?

If they don't actually do something fun with the system when they bring it back, I might just make a mod trying to attack this very problem. I loosely noodled one together for game 2 but got distracted with game 3 on the horizon.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Dr Christmas posted:

However, each subsequent trade deal was harder to make, and I found that at a point, money just stops working for that. I'd add the trade agreement to the offer, add payment, and increase it. You could see the scale balance out as you hit the "increase" button, but at a certain point it wouldn't move. Luckily, offering to declare war on the 10th faction's enemies in addition to money sealed that deal.

Get more trading resources, this starts happening when you're trading 100% of your goods already. The more excess you have to sell off, the more they'll want it AND the higher they'll offer you money for it. Any expansion out of Cathay should be specifically targeting trade resources you don't have or you've capped out. Also, review your trade deals and kill any with minor powers if you have a juicer faction on the table - or if you know you're gonna be taking them out soon because THEY have a resource you want more of. Channel your Spice Road. Once IE comes out I'll definitely be aggressively acting like british imperialists in my Cathay games.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ristolaz posted:

I think it's bad that all the chaos factions are at permawar with the human ones. I just finished a game as kairos and I ended up in an alliance with every chaos faction including nurgle who are supposed to be my mortal enemy, since we are at war with the same enemies.

Wouldnt it be cooler if, for example, cathay or kislev could "give in" to chaos by ending their war with them?

They need A LOT more around taking deals with chaos and the like, although that might honestly be too much with what the game is currently at. Maybe modders will do something insanely rad with it, but ya, you should be able to offer unusual things to the AI that can make them take deals and you should be able to make odd requests of chaos as the player. Combine that with corruption, cults, and chaos traits having some upsides and you could have a real fun time of things.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Mr. Grapes! posted:

I'm curious. Why? I'm not trying to bait you. I know nothing about it. I bought Warhams 2 rather late and I just copy/pasted my friend's list of mods that he subscribed to because he had like 1000 hours in the game and he sent me good mods for previous historical total wars.

I'm still rather vague on every thing that SFO does but I do like the slower battles and they've added some interesting faction mechanics to legendary lords that previously had none (like Throgg can eat people for new techs). Other than that I'm pretty unaware of anything controversial it does - it seems that it barely adds any new units and the added ones seem to fit in well without being overpowered.

SFO is a massive overhaul that radically changes the base game, and therefore radicalizes the player base on if it is good or not. If you enjoy it, play it, if not, don't. It's really that simple.

On a deeper level, each faction and lord have been changed enough that you might find you like the way specific factions have been changed, but not others. At a baseline its a rougher experience because there are a lot more choices that can have long term consequences that you have to both understand the baseline game and engine to really grok what its doing, but then also learn the ins and outs of SFO in particular to assess. This is a PITA if you're a fairly casual player but can be quite compelling if you're a 1000+ hour player and have specific Thoughts on the state of the game. The community around it trends towards the more hardcore/high difficulty player base, coming with the toxicity you'd generally expect of it. In my surface level reading that community has become a bit better over the last 2ish years to a combination of better team guidance and enough sub-mods that they aren't as "pure" as they started off as, but I also don't dive into that community much because I don't find SFO super compelling.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

no disagreement here with the principle as expressed but the problems these streamers have with the games are exclusively creative, not business. they don't think the games are fun enough after playing for 12 hours a day, every day, for a month. not that they're getting ripped off by unfair terms and conditions (the most relevant of those, of course, are set by youtube and twitch, not sega). they want to collectively bargain on behalf of the fans to make creative decisions about game balance and design? the gently caress? you going to let the people at wookiepedia write the next star wars movie?

No, people are using union and guild interchangeably because most people don't know poo poo about labor relations because capital has been waging an incredibly effective information war against that kind of knowledge for decades now. And, also, because the line between a guild and a union can be quite blurred, especially in america, where a lot of the legal protection stuff is bundled into unions for various historical reasons.

Content streamers want to from a guild, but needs the legal protections of unions and union structures. The person who mentioned SAG upstream actually gets it. This is effectively what FaZe Clan is, although their guild structure is more...Medici in nature than the broader based employee representation you'd want. A hypothetical Streamers Guild (hell, SAG should probably just try and absorb that, but that's a larger derail) would want to do collective bargaining with the streaming platforms themselves, and then help set general guidelines for the broader industry that would set standard rates and expectations around things like amount of prep time for videos, needing a CM as a point of contact, accountability for time put into making videos, yada yada.

Its different enough that being its own thing makes a certain amount of sense, but they already blur in a very weird way, would probably ultimately make sense to bolster numbers. Also, you know, if you think unions are a good thing, you should be helping and getting the people who have the most direct access to the widest audiences to like you and advocate for you.

ANYWAYS. The above is broadly what people are generally thinking of when they say "unionize", unless they are an insane person saying they should try to form a union with CA, in which case they are either deeply uninformed or very insane.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

They mean leaving the gates after the enemy attacks. Not attacking a sieging army. Sacrifice some poo poo out front then fight in chokes. It’s not like losing garrison units hurt.

Something worth mentioning here is that opening gates is REAL good bait for the AI, they will often get real dumb with it. You can do some devastating things with spells and forward facing artillery like cannons with certain layouts. Very good kill boxes.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

jokes posted:

Empire vs. Orcs is a funner and cooler time than vampire poo poo

The only match ups that are more reversed for me in terms of enjoying the dynamic than Vamp v Empire as opposed to being on the other side of it, is playing as early game Ikit vs against him. I loooove swarming down Empire as Vamps, it is so satisfying and feels like a good necromancer simulator kind of game almost. Putting down Vamps as Empire early game on the other hand is often a loving nightmare. And so it is with Ikit. Ask not for whom the ratling gunner brrrs, for it goes brrrs for thee.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Because I'm in a strange mood, I'm actually gonna humor Arghy's idea on more complex ideas on sacking/razing and map out how he can implement it once all the modding tools are out.

The important thing here is we already have ui/ux for targeting specific buildings from the Damage Building hero action AND we already have an abstraction of...effort? power, from the siege equipment interface. Each building (and tier of) gets an amount of effort to sack or raze, with razing being less effort intensive since you're just burning that poo poo to the ground.

Razing is fairly straightforward, it applies ALL of your effort to tier/tear down as many buildings as it can, when a t1 gets depleted, its gone. The main settlement always gets hit last (a t2 main settlement building can't become t1 until all other buildings get brought down to t1, etc). You'd probably want to roughly match it so that a strong stack of same tier as the buildings can tear down a minor settlement an entire tier per turn, maybe a little slower at the front and faster at the back end, whatever, do some spreadsheet math.

Looting is more complex because you actually allocate what buildings you're gonna sack against your manpower/effort rating using the combination of the siege equipment mechanics + damage building targeting. If you're here for the money, you're targeting economy rich targets and generally avoiding military/main targets because they'll be structured to take more manpower/time. Get in, smash up some gold mines, steal some tools, and bounce.

Each of these can be built off the general siege stance when you're besieging a city - so once you've won a settlement battle, if you click raze or sack, you're "staying" in siege as you spend turns clearing out the settlement.

I *think* with some of the dynamic targeting and changes to db setup you could actually setup certain faction specific interactions (orcs kind of universally suck to loot but they raze super quick, skaven are a loving nightmare to raze but pretty quick to loot, etc) that would be more "lore" accurate if you wanted to do that as well. Or do both and split one into a submod for loreheads or whatever. Go nuts.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Doomykins posted:

I just want a ChArghy to emerge when the Chorf DLC drops.

Someone make a mod called WArghy that makes all orc armies lead by Grimgor tia

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Dr Christmas posted:

I think the thing where the death of the single model within the Exalted Bloodletter unit that counts as the lord of the Blood Host no longer causes the army to disappear once that battle is done. I had a battle where I got that popup, and did some experiments where I suicided the leading unit before winning a battle, and the army was still there afterwards. After those battles, the unit returned with a teensy number of models despite being wiped out. It isn't in the patch notes, but I guess it's fixed.

It's still sort of broken. If you lose that unit on a settlement battle that you raze (for either skulls or a new army), it nukes the army. This completely destroyed my momentum on the game I started up and haven't touched it since after doing some experimenting to confirm it.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

I said come in! posted:

its especially hilarious after defenders insisted you would be able to take these to any video game.

This is genuinely the stupidest part of the pitch (not the reality, but the pitch itself). Anyone who has experience in the video game industry will tell you that you can't even keep up with supporting/making your own content. In what loving world are you supporting someone else's content? Hell, how many games have pitched being able to carry your characters across games in a series and then ended up having to ditch it? Complete insanity.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Mercrom posted:

I disagree. Adding 10 melee defense turns it into a defensive stance which would only make it bad for Khorne. Not for a faction with ranged units and magic to do most of the damage.

Agree with this take. I'd absolutely use this for my screen units, that's HUGE to MD, potentially even broken. 10 MD is a massive boon, doing a tradeoff where you're not going to get as much unit coverage because of the cohesion if you try and charge seems very fair. Just turn it off if you're using them offensively.

Edit: Did some quick testing on this, simple jade warriors v jade warriors. The ones with the improved formation mod on (Team A) significantly outperformed the other unit that had it toggled off (Team B). When Team B was down to half HP, Team B still had ~79% of their HP. This divide only got worse as time progressed. Having the formation mode on for your front lines/screens is objectively superior to not having it on.

Edit 2: Some more testing. Anti-infantry will still gently caress them up hard, bloodletters chew through them, the gap was much lower, but their MA is much higher. You'll still really need to be mindful of it. I think I might actually just keep this mod installed, its absolutely not busted on lower tier stuff. It might get a little nutty on higher tier units and you stack some modifiers, but it feels like a really fair tradeoff.

TaintedBalance fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Apr 11, 2022

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Panfilo posted:

There's a mod that gives new landmark buildings on the settlements that have resources. On top of this they also unlock special missions for them but I haven't gotten to try them. The landmarks themselves are fairly decent so far.

To clarify on this a bit, assuming its this mod (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2790208516&searchtext=landmark - as an aside, can we please link to mods we're talking about if they aren't super common ones? This will become more and more of an issue as mods come online and it can get really tedious trying to find the specific mods people mentioned back in twh2 by the end of its lifecycle): They had to tie the landmark to resource buildings because the full mod tools aren't out, and its got some serious jank because of that. It's all in the notes, and still better than nothing (I love me some landmarks), but they didn't add it to resources as a solution to how awkward a number of resource places are, its just how they ended up having to do it.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ravenfood posted:

Any way to look at error logs? I'm getting a crash with Khorne that doesn't seem to be clearly related to anything and no error message pops up, so I'm kind of at a loss as to how to troubleshoot it. No mods at all. Might be something with the map-heavy graphics?

C:\Users\[YOUR USER NAME]\AppData\Roaming\The Creative Assembly\Warhammer3\crash_report

Look there. This is assuming your windows install is on the C: drive, change that as well if you've got a non-standard install of Windows. You'll want to check out the .mdmp files, which you need a debugger to be able to read. This is the standard windows one: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/debugger-download-tools

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Doomykins posted:

That's hilarious because I welcome the current spawns as a free money press. Even ARing every battle on VH. :clint:

I wonder what the odds are that more code is fast and loose regarding AI aggression vs the player.

They've pretty obviously outsourced portions of the content/game development and their process for merging and QAing all of it is not in a great place. This is also the likely cause of the large amount of time its taking them to shift gears to fix poo poo instead of just going straight at IE and DLC. Modern AAA development is hell.

Edit: Lol lol, at least they realize they've really dropped the ball here https://www.creative-assembly.com/careers/view/development-manager-total-war-franchise/o93hjfww

TaintedBalance fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Apr 20, 2022

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Olesh posted:

From the examples provided, this doesn't really scan as "not working as intended" at all. Rather this looks like originally they experimented with ways to shut down the Kurgan warband, and wrote some code setting conditions where the Kurgan Warband would spawn and attack and other conditions where the Kurgans would be shut down, and then decided that shutting down the Kurgan spawn was undesirable, thus just forcing the condition in the existing code without bothering to rewrite the script to eliminate the condition.

Your other points are fine, and I think they actually point to the above being wrong. I think they WERE trying to balance it out/make it work, and just ran out of time. Or someone checked in the wrong script and it never got fully caught/they said "gently caress it, ship it live" because even the smoke tests for a project of this scope and complexity has to be a loving nightmare. On the list of issues negatively effecting the game, the way the Kurgan Warbands currently work is probably in the "we'll fix it when we come back to expand on the mechanics for a DLC" column.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

TheLastRoboKy posted:

Arghy stop buying candles and use a flamethrower like your ancestors did

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

jokes posted:

That actually totally rules

He knows chaos’s “goals” are bullshit and by actually forcing them to win, Archaon is calling them on their poo poo

Something something Musk buying Twitter something something

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Old Woman Island posted:

Oh there was this also



This is fairly reasonable, and makes sense considering how much they had/have to fix in the base game before they can really move forward. More content and updates in most months, and the blog post is pretty meaty. There is obviously still some chaos going on behind the scenes, but it appears to be improving. Not ideal, but anyone expecting them to hard pivot into fixing the game in a single quarter has zero idea what goes into game or software development at this scale anyways. If its not enough for you yet to purchase, that's fine, but damning them for not fixing everything immediately is just unreasonable.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Ravenfood posted:

Yeah, it seems like the lesson they learned wasnt that narrative campaigns are bad (and they aren't) but that the Vortex was bad (kinda). And because they learned the wrong lesson they made similar mistakes.

Same thing from the short on-map narrative things they did with WH1 DLC.

I think that the RoC would be much less badly reviewed if they were the DLC and not the main release, and didnt impair the map-painting quite so much. Like imagine if that was JUST Katarin's campaign (without the survival battles maybe) and it's pretty great, imo. The repetition and similarity across all the factions undermines the general replayability and THAT is what hurts most, I think.

The oddest thing of it all to me honestly is how good the tutorial is and how bad it hands off to the campaign.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Dandywalken posted:

Yeah the army size difference is absolutely for the better in AoS imo

sincerely, Orc player

Specifically, the army size difference is much better for what the larger market share wants and can handle well, especially the aesthetic revamp (of note here, they specifically are targeting younger audiences with this because they want them to turn into future long term customers ala 40k space marines). And this is something that I don't think Fantasy actually could have handled well because you'd have a VERY weird split in the audience over this if you "anime upped" WHFB. Instead they made the right call and said "gently caress this whales only approach" that had some very...deranged fans (not saying all, but y'all know there are some real fuckin weirdos into chaos/DElves) and hard forked the main fantasy IP into something that could get a wider funnel with both aesthetic appeal and cost reductions through new molding and reduced unit counts.

Long term they can back port into the setting ala Old World, or, imo, could also potentially go a...whatever the hell that size scale for the Titans is in 40k? Epic? With an established core revenue driver that justifies investment in the main franchise via offshoots for niche audiences that WILL spend for those set piece units and then can make fast jobs of smaller scale regular units. Add in the forge world bespoke "normal" game scale big units for $$$ and you've got a viable game going. Nerds with obscene money or dedication can build 10k point armies of the regular unit scale for $20k or w/e, people with less investment can grab the "Total War" starter set if it tickles their fancy. Larger armies that need rank and file or real battlefield strategy is just always gonna be niche on tabletop because its complex and expensive. Making that the focus is not good business, but making it a supporting buttress of a core game series that it can ride off of is.

I am quite interested in how The Old World is gonna be packaged, and I'm hoping its an aggressive campaign that includes new TTRPG products as well. If nothing else, WHFB was really good for grabbing minis for your own home games that nothing else really hit the spot for me.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

TOOT BOOT posted:

The post about the AI rolling in and winning on turn 161 of your campaign kinda ties in a discussion in the 4X thread about why AI in strategy games is usually pretty bad. Part of the answer is that making an AI that can play a complex game is very hard and that post is basically the other half: players say they want good AI but actually losing to an AI after 15 hours feels like poo poo most of the time. So it ends up as a very low development priority.

You can't underestimate the first part either. When they trained an AI to play a limited subset of Dota, it took millions of hours of automated testing and a lot of hardware resources to be able to beat human players. Which it did, quite easily, at first. But then, people figured out how to exploit its behavior and it was back to being a dumb bot that was easy to beat if you knew how to confuse it.

Computers do much, much better in games where there are a limited number of possible moves.

Maybe we'll eventually get to the point where machine learning will be sophisticated enough that adding an AI with the competence of an average human player is a no-brainer but we're not there yet.

An additional part of the problem is a lot of people claim they want the AI to play like a human which is weird, just go play pvp if you want that. Unfortunately a lot of devs get stuck in that trap as well. The AI should be playing by different rulesets so that it can be an interesting challenge, but you need to fully embrace that, and it's not easy.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Third World Reagan posted:

They need a dragons dogma AI deal where the AI learns to play like you.

Sever the tail Everchosen! Greenskins ill like fire!

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Tiler Kiwi posted:

i think there are games, especially when they're multiplayer games, that absolutely cannot stand up to that kind of mechanical scrutiny. going nothing but lightning strike doomstacks and never actually developing your territory because the returns on investment are way too small is probably the best choice objectively but boy does it invalidate a huge part of the game.

these games are also known as "poorly designed".

the inverse can also really be true as well, tho - players that just refuse to take a game on its terms because they have habits from other games they refuse to adjust - sort of, funhaving the fun out of a game, I guess. it comes up a lot in 4x games, i feel.

I still can't decide if the Total War games are poorly designed or just very poorly balanced. There is a tension between the simcity/civ elements of building up your settlements and empire while trying to push you into total war that they just never seem to be able to hit the balance on. Some factions are better than others, some games are better than others, but regardless, it always ends up feeling like its trying to be two different games at once; these often fight each other more often than they compliment each other.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Gonkish posted:

So while we're all starved for info, there's this post on reddit right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/umvmx7/nkari_starts_in_chrace_in_immortal_empires/

I guess this guy is a modder and was digging around in the files. There's a few things of note here:

1. N'Kari, at least in whatever version of IE this script was written for, starts on Ulthuan, in Chrace?

2. There's mention of "theaters", which may not be Empire-style theaters like we're thinking of them, but perhaps related to AI processing or something? Unsure.

3. Ulthuan may be 22 provinces instead of ME's 16.

4. Ulthuan's "theater" apparently includes the following LLs as starts: Tyrion, Alarielle, Morathi, Wulfrik, Noctilus, Grom and Nkari. The donut is going to be a lot less homogenous.

No mention of Alith Anar on Ulthuan, so he's probably still starting somewhere in the New World. Morathi, Wulfrik, and Grom possibly being moved to the donut is a big change. Looks like they're toying with making Ulthuan a lot less "safe", Alarielle is gonna have a hell of a time.

Obviously, take all of this with a huuuuuuuuuuuge grain of salt, first and foremost because this is speculation, and secondly because it's speculation based on potentially months/years old scripts without any further elaboration.

If the theater thing is used for AI that would be fantastic. It's something that the AI very clearly does not give a poo poo about in game 2 and is likely a large reason why it can be so psychotically dumb. Even just a VERY simple theater distance measure with large decreases to level of "care" about things happening in theaters that aren't in your present controlled territory could go a long way towards the AI not going on expeditions while leaving themselves exposed to players/other AIs in strange ways. Usually going AFTER the player, but occasionally going on whatever hell war against someone else while their home area burns.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Gonkish posted:

So while we're all starved for info, there's this post on reddit right now: https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/umvmx7/nkari_starts_in_chrace_in_immortal_empires/

3. Ulthuan may be 22 provinces instead of ME's 16.

4. Ulthuan's "theater" apparently includes the following LLs as starts: Tyrion, Alarielle, Morathi, Wulfrik, Noctilus, Grom and Nkari. The donut is going to be a lot less homogenous.

No mention of Alith Anar on Ulthuan, so he's probably still starting somewhere in the New World. Morathi, Wulfrik, and Grom possibly being moved to the donut is a big change. Looks like they're toying with making Ulthuan a lot less "safe", Alarielle is gonna have a hell of a time.


Just wanted to point out here if you read into the thread a little more closely, the 22 provinces is pretty clearly not Ulthuan itself, but the Ulthuan theater. Hag Grief and Galleon's Graveyard are in the list given of the theater, so its likely people who are in starting provinces that are considered part of the Ulthuan theater, not the donut itself. Will be very curious to see how this concept shapes up in actual IE when we see the more up to date information.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Gonkish posted:

It has and it's actually quite good. Being able to fling some furies (or other expendable flyers) or shoot them with missiles and... have that matter, for once, is actually a very nice change.

Ya, settlement battles are much less of a pain in the rear end now. Pathing for both shooters and infantry can still be dodgy, but its nowhere near the poo poo show it was before since you're not getting punished every single second. It has also massively increased the value of fliers in general imo, being able to take out select towers lets you control the field a lot better now instead of just hoping they screen some attacks for awhile while you madly rush to cap.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

After playing some more with the patch, settlement battles really are a lot better without the auto-rebuilding towers. I'm really not sure how that of all things shipped live. On the design side of them, I've also come to realize the core (non-technical) issue with the supposition going in - I am positive that they expected players to spend a couple turns racking up some attrition on the enemy before going on. This is also why the AI starves you out before engaging, and why they have those weird "get more siege supplies the longer you are under siege" skill line and abilities on some lords/buildings. Which is fine in a vacuum, but bad in terms of how the game actually plays, especially at higher campaign settings and how absolutely apeshit anti-player the AI used to be (its a lot better now, if still aggressive).

I found decent success in using main armies to catch enemy armies in the field and then using reserve stacks to just starve most cities out and engage them on my own terms, which is far more viable with the reduced supply lines, but also not really how the game is structured to play, especially early game. Feels like a half baked thesis and update on the game that they either didn't get fully built in, or tried it out and couldn't fully remove it by the time it was go time after play testing found it sucked.

Overall I expect the game to be a banger by probably the 2nd DLC after IE releases, but it needed more time baking and its just gonna take a bit to get there.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

Doomykins posted:

The trick to N'Kari is to use Marauders as your expendables, except you get access to T2 dudes with Melee Defense 42 so they're really good at it and hardly expendable. They'll replenish normally. Daemonettes are useable but Exalted are vastly better and a T3 investment.

Engage with fodder, flank properly(Slaanesh flank bonus), use N'Kari's debuffs(spell, cooldown hex) to reduce attack of their elites/Lord/heroes, -9 attack from Exalted Daemonettes. A proper N'kari fight against anything but another LL or Doomstack will see you inflict catastrophic kills and take 5% of your army in damage at most, some Marauder units excluded. You don't take damage when the enemy panics and starts a chain routing and Slaanesh is probably the best faction in the entire game for immediately seizing and peeling apart one or both sides of a front down to the center

Sieges are even easier since you have such amazing speed and with campaign gear you can remove N'kari's glass cannon weaknesses. He's Fast Skarbrand.

As always for Chaos Daemon factions don't forget a Cultist Hero.

I think there's also a depravity ritual(the three city options in the bottom left) that might increase replenishment but don't quote me on that. Oh and rush replenishment tech, and maybe followers? It has been awhile but as I recall they don't leave you with nothing to use. In all seriousness N'kari/Slaanesh replenishment isn't that bad because I was using the "damage your army for 7% to move faster" ritual on cooldown without a need to hit the brakes.

Marauders are even better in 1.2, so yes-yes to this strategy. The Decadent Apostles tech now gives them Soporific Musk (-5 MA and MD for 10 seconds on being attacked by the unit) which makes the Marauders last longer and the enemy fold faster.

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

wiegieman posted:

Unfortunately, they only cut hair in styles that are not yet in fashion or no longer were never in fashion despite everyone being quite sure they most definitely were at some point but that point is not now.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

TaintedBalance
Dec 21, 2006

hope, n: desire accompanied by expectation of or belief in fulfilment

The Cathay magistrate is already making a play for this in their single pick yellow line stuff. More factions and lords honestly need that poo poo, god I hate the red line. It just boring.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply