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the fact that trans femme athletes do not finish overwhelmingly at the very top of their sports is enough proof to know that talk about "unfair advantages" is complete bunk.
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Apr 5, 2022 22:14
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Jaxyon posted:I'd to point out 7 pages in not a single person has disputed my first post in the thread with any substance(data, studies, statistics) whatsoever including the person who posted frankly horrible things at people in their PMs before getting banned. e: uh talking about alginor, not jayxon obv A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Apr 8, 2022 |
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Apr 8, 2022 10:41
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VitalSigns posted:I love the math they're doing there Honestly the way we worship star performers in sports, even in youth leagues, is really hosed up.
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Apr 8, 2022 23:01
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Just Chamber posted:While people who went through male puberty will of course have the strength advantages etc over those who went through female puberty what I'm curious about is has there been studies that show that HRT completely eradicates the advantageous male biology like higher bone density to the point a trans woman is on an equal playing field than a cis woman? The complete lack of systemic success of trans women in sports is the proof in the pudding imo
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Apr 8, 2022 23:16
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Jaxyon posted:Bone mass density is kind of a canard. If you think it matters, you're going to have to start banning black women from women's sports too. Please don't show this to the IOC  Jaxyon posted:While yes I agree there's a lot of crossover in transphobia and racism, it underscores an important point. I think it's very easy to argue that the concept of femininity itself is inexorably linked to white supremacy in our society. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 00:20
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Internaut! posted:Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion. gently caress you, you transphobic piece of poo poo. Koos if you're gonna probe me for being indecorous at least ban this freak for spewing bigotry.
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Apr 9, 2022 03:39
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kind of shocked by the complete lack of action tbh id figured there would at least be (grossly insufficient) probes dealt out by now. i dislike trying to generalize an attitude on the staff as a whole but they seem really unconcerned with transphobic rhetoric
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Apr 9, 2022 12:59
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koos you realize how unsatisfying of a response this is, right? the guy was spewing open bigotry and you loving give him a single day probe? I'm not even talking about giving him an initial chance, the fact that he immediately doubled down into outright transphobia is reprehensible, and giving him a single day off is horseshit. e: if the policy of moderation is to give people talking vague bigotry a chance to explain themselves, and explicit bigotry only warrants a day off, then I'm sorry but Debate and Discussion tolerates transphobia. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 13:41
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Trollologist posted:I just read (skimmed) 9 loving pages of posting about a niche group of people and whether or not they're so good at sports that they should be banned and do you know what no one, on either side of the issue has posted? Results. If these people aren't overwhelmingly amazing at sports, post the results. Link the losses. Alright, i'm actually going to engage you in good faith because despite your name, I don't quite get any outright malicious vibes from you So, regarding the bolded, this is a really fallacious and, well, dumb position. The positive claim being made here is trans femme athletes retain such a significant advantage from having gone through male puberty that permitting their presence in women's competitions destroys the competitive balance. That's a very specific claim, and it's one that needs to be backed up by evidence. My retort to that claim, that there are no large amount of finishes that prove such an advantage, is a negative claim and does not need to be proven. Heck, it's a trivial claim to prove wrong on my part. Post the glut of high finishes! Trollologist posted:Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress. We react with such venom to claims like this because it is an attack on our very identity, and these claims are made to advance an agenda that would see us excluded from women sporting events wholesale. To draw an analogy, say someone made the argument that black people are so unfairly advantaged by their common phenotypical traits that they have an unfair advantage over whites, and thus should be cordoned off into their own league. You'd almost certainly be attacked immediately for being a racist, and black people would say all sort of nasty poo poo about you in response. Would you argue that those people are being, as you say "thin skinned reactionaries that try to bitch their way into getting what they want because they felt slighted online?" I think its easy to see thats a farce. We tend to respond with vitriol to claims like these because we view them as an attack on our identity and our "freak out" as one might say, is appropriately proportioned. quote:Also that trans swimmer lady is like 8th overall. (here's her performance record: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/) But also she set a lot of records? I don't know what to make of that because on the one hand I don't competitive swim. But on the other hand, hyper competitive types are huge whiners so....sour grapes also? This seems again like a strident response that rests on the assumption that trans femme athletes possess an unfair advantage. I assert, this assumption is baseless and so these measures are wholly unwarrented. You could argue for that assumption by posting a glut of trans femme athletes reporting top finishes. These sort of things are specific claims, and they have very weighty consequences if we act as though they are true, so you better be prepared to back this stuff up when you raise them.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:29
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Kalit posted:So….I’m confused. At first, when Koos took over as moderation and it was announced positions would not be moderated, a lot of people were excited. But now, when the possibility of a naive person who read some bullshit headline about transgenders in sports come up, that support is suddenly flipped into something akin to “ban immediately”? What I believe is being argued is when someone uses bigoted rhetoric, the immediate reaction should be moderation action with prejudice. I am honestly sympathetic to the general idea that positions should not be moderated, because carving out an exception for bigotry to be wholly disallowable allows someone to claim actually contentious ideas are simple bigotry and should be disallowed on sight. I'm reminded of the holodomor discourse from earlier this month. And that's a valid concern, but we can use our judgment here. some ideas are so obviously bigoted that we don't need to maintain an assumption of good faith on the person voicing that idea. Like let's be real, if someone makes a structured, well cited argument that jewish people should be exterminated, no one with a brain would argue that doesn't deserve a ban on sight. Trans bigotry, in my opinion, falls under the standard of "so obviously bigoted that we don't need to maintain an assumption of good faith."
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Apr 9, 2022 22:36
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Kalit posted:Oh yea, after that person kept posting, it became obvious. 1000% after the pm poo poo came out. But I’m talking about the hypothetical after their very first post, which seemed stupid but possibly good faith still so like, let's take a look at the example in question: quote:Hot take. Trans athletes should not be allowed to take part in gender specific sports. Lia Thomas, for example, is only just transitioning. She is built like a male swimmer. She needs time to go through her transition and then once that's done she should be allowed to compete as much as she wants. But, does anyone possibly see the disparity? Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete in women's sport and they overtake and it becomes more important than women's leagues. Takes away from what women are achieving. starting with "hot take" on this topic is never a good sign. I guess if we kind of squint reallllly hard, you could make the argument this poster is just stupid rather than bigoted? There's uh, some weirdness going on with the "Transitioning women cant compete in men's sports, whereas transitioning men compete" part because it seems like he's misgendering the trans athletes based on their aab gender, but honestly it parses so weirdly im willing to let it slide. its borderline, but i wont outright call you an idiot if you say that this doesnt deserve moderation intervention on the spot. Now let's see the next post: Aginor posted:Hate the "cis" tag on peoples gender. Seems very negative. Yeah, at this point it's dead obvious what's going on. Disliking the term "cis" is such a sign of ignorance, and then to describe lia in terms of biological essentialism is just blatantly aping transphobic rhetoric. To top it off, he does the standard PC gone mad! to imply that being anti-transphobia is an "aGeNDa" do you disagree with these assessments of the posts? A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 22:44
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Kalit posted:TBH, in a vacuum, I could read those as some opinion by a lovely person who I grew up with in rural MN that could be swayed away from their position. Maybe I'm naive, but the difference is that in real life, and especially with people you have grown up with (even acquaintances) there exists a strong rapport that allows for nuance and discernment of what a person, even someone you might identify as a "shithead", actually means with their statements, are they motivated by ignorance or malice, how deeply do they hold their current opinion, etc etc etc there is absolutely nothing like this rapport that exists online. the process you are describing is completely and utterly impossible in online discussion spaces. your impulse towards empathy for even a person speaking hatefully is truly a laudable one. heck, it can often lead to weal! but, it is an impulse will do nothing but lead you to woe online. cat botherer posted:Fuuuck offff. 24 hr probe probe is bitchmade poo poo. hey, easy. i don't believe we're quite at the level where this sort of hostility is warranted. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 02:10
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PeterCat posted:The US Air Force's physical fitness test consists of 2 minutes of push-ups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. A US Air Force study of transitioning servicemembers showed that post transition, the servicemembers performed more or less equally with their new cohort, with the exceptions that MTF Airmen did 12% better on the run than cis-gendered women, while FTM Airmen scored slightly better on sit-ups than their counterparts. well first off, lmao chair force. on a more serious note, that would depend what is the intended goal of this fitness test. My intuition would be that it establishes a base level of physical fitness that the military can assume to be present in every service member of its branch. Under that respect I don't see why it would be necessary to fine-tune the results to the capabilities of a subgroup, be it trans individuals or any other distinct demographic. e: PeterCat posted:It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first. ohhhhhh. okay that makes more sense. i guess my retort would be has the military shown interest in "leveling the playing field," so to speak, for any other physically distinct demophraphic? if they haven't, then I see no reason why they would change their approach for trans soldiers, and if they have, well throw it to the actuaries and let them go nuts! A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 02:17
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Fluffdaddy posted:While I think people shouldn't be permad or even banned for having bad or even somewhat vile opinions, the threshold is when you think it's acceptable to debate about a minority groups right to exist. There is nothing to debate and there is no nuance there. Uh fluff this thread clearly shows that people in this subforum do in fact think that whether or not trans individuals have unfair advantages in athletic competitions is something that has nuance or is up for debate. Hell, it's not just bigoted shitheads that think that sort of thing! Like I would love if every person in dnd considered such a matter an open and shut case, but that ain't how it is. What choice do we have but to have threads like this? That's not the sort of problem that fixes itself!
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Apr 10, 2022 09:47
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Like I confess I'm somewhat taken aback by that statement. Do you mind elaborating why you think this sort of thread should not exist in dnd?
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Apr 10, 2022 10:01
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Sedisp posted:Change the subject to something like "should black athletes be allowed to compete?" and there isn't really anything to discuss. The answer is yes of course. All the concerns are usually just a way to be racist. Yes there are people in good faith that will be accidentally transphobic but usually it's obvious and then the thread no longer becomes a debate and more of just educating the people who genuinely think "trans women are women" means "trans women are women*" oh yeah i get that, im more refering to the fact that the response to this thread clearly shows why it is necessary for it to exist. Like I said, it would be great if everyone was of one mind on this but that is not the world we live in
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Apr 10, 2022 12:47
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Fluffdaddy posted:I guess I come from the mindset that minorities are not here to educate their oppressors. That's a lot of unfair emotional labor. hey its not like im going to have to stop having to explain how i identify in exacting detail for the rest of my life, lol.
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Apr 10, 2022 13:16
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VitalSigns posted:Is it hyperbole tho I mean, the reason is white supremacy, same as transmisogyny 
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Apr 11, 2022 15:59
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gentleman baller youre posting shockingly fixated on biological essentialism. you are holding onto that 1700x overrepresentation figure like its a magical talisman. cool off the hormone science if you would please
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Apr 12, 2022 08:50
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like do we really have to pretend any more that the IAAF isnt explicitly trying to enforce white supremacy by banning caster semenya? its so loving obvious.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:53
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:So your contention is that if Caster Semanya was white, she would not have had to face any of this scrutiny? if semanya was white, she would not be seen as transgressing against the western notion of femininity (because whiteness is foundational to this notion) to a greater or lesser extent, everything about presenting as a woman in western culture is based in the aesthetics of whiteness how many times have you heard the williams sisters or michelle obama called "mannish"?
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Apr 12, 2022 21:43
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PeterCat posted:People had no problems calling Jarmila Kratochvilova "mannish." Or are Czechs not white in your world? do you seriously dispute that black women are systemically denied their womanhood by society at large, especially if they choose to eschew traditional white presentations of femininity (the hair stuff etc)
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Apr 13, 2022 00:53
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Woozys discussion was interesting, but as far as I can tell colonel cool's entire argument seems to be "I can conceive of a scenario in which trans women dominate elite levels in sports, so we need to be ready for that likely scenario" like unless I misread it, it seems like their entire argument is them mistaking their own imagination for actual evidence? It's kind of weird on another note, "what does it mean to identify as a woman or identify as a man?" is frankly an insanely complicated question about gender, gendered performance, the confluence of social and individual performances, and the role that historical and social inertia plays in these things just to freaking start. Like trying to define "what is gender" is one of the single most broad questions you can ask about what it is to be human
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Apr 17, 2022 03:49
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ol yeller posted:I think that if transwomen have an unfair advantage then they should be allowed to compete, because I hate women. Lol very problematic to not also hate trans women for being women in this scenario IMO
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Apr 17, 2022 03:55
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Colonel Cool posted:If the bar for being a blatantly transphobic rear end in a top hat is "thinks that it is reasonably plausible that trans women might come to be disproportionally represented in elite level women's sports" then I think we're doing pretty okay in the grand scheme of things. Yes, we don't have overwhelming evidence of this being the case, yet. That isn't anywhere near enough reason to say that it is an absurd bad faith concern that only nefarious transphobes could hold, when we consider the current circumstantial evidence. CC do you have any piece of evidence that is actually something you can point to target then just a possibility you have conceived. Like if you're overall defense is that there is insufficient evidence at this time to support your assertion then why the gently caress should we give it any credence whatsoever e: this part in particular quote:Trans women currently seem to be reasonably competitive with cis women, despite all the current social factors hindering their performance that have started, and should hopefully continue, to diminish over time. It is not at all obvious to me why these social factors would inhibit women currently competing in the sport as opposed to inhibit the overall number of women participated in the sport. Like why would social factors result in a degradation of an individual athletes performance after they have already decided to participate A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 04:41
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Colonel Cool posted:I think all of the things I posted are reasonable enough pieces of circumstantial evidence that are sufficient to support an inductive argument. People are obviously free to disagree if they want to, and I'd be interested in seeing reasons for why. Would you mind walking me through your inductive reasoning
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Apr 17, 2022 04:45
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