Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

How are u posted:

all the womens teams and leagues full of majority trans-women to the exclusion of women

loving excuse me?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Apr 6, 2022 08:19

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:50

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

How are u posted:

Yes, I agree.

It doesn't seem like you do, considering you just specified "trans women" and "women" as two separate categories that can be in conflict with each other?

# ¿ Apr 6, 2022 18:32

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Squinty posted:

Personally, I'd lean towards allowing transwomen to compete, and then in 20 years if every center in the WNBA and every middle blocker at the Olympics is transgender, maybe then you reevaluate.

What would this "reevaluation" look like to you?

# ¿ Apr 7, 2022 04:42

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

It'll look like nothing because the conditions he'd laid out won't ever happen. In twenty years no matter how many trans athletes there are in professional/amateur sports their individual performance will be indistinguishable from cis athletes. Even if any of them have some abstruse theoretical advantage over their cis counterparts it won't be detectable against all the various background factors that influence athletic development.

I mean, yeah. Obviously. But if we're taking up residence in the realm of the hypothetical I'm curious what kind of scheme he was imagining- what metrics do we use, what new divisions, etc. It can be instructive, even if only in the sense that it's a fun glimpse into what kind of poo poo society is going to try on us next :smith:

# ¿ Apr 7, 2022 06:00

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Internaut! posted:

Sure like that swimmer who was fairly competitive as a man but transitioned and immediately became women's NCAA champion, or that weightlifter who was in their 40s and washed before transitioning and immediately starting to rake in women's championships, or the cyclist who wasn't even a competitive cyclist as a man but then transitioned and immediately became women's world champion.

But when many ITT won't even go so far as to admit the reason this issue is being talked about is that there's a recurring theme in sport of middling to inadequate men transitioning to women and reaping the rewards, I don't see much point in debate.

How many chances is this guy going to be given?

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 06:35

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Trollologist posted:

Holy poo poo, calm down. I'm all for rights and personhood and respecting another human's journey of self acceptance, but the sheer extremes that are being used in regards to what amounts to a bad faith troll shitposter, take a deep breath. gently caress.

Then loving leave. This may come as a shock, but there are OTHER places online where you can post nonsense. You know where the log out button is if you feel this strongly. You know who else left? M00t. And last I heard 4chan is, well, it still is.

loving go post there then. Jesus.

Look, first of all, take a look at my rap sheet, I've been probed more than once for making the same joke that "Trans people are thin skinned reactionaries that try to bitch their way into getting what they want because they felt slighted online" (this is what's called "hyperbole" and is commonly depicted as a farcical strawman), but you don't have to, you know actually behave that way to prove my point on it.

That all being said, I know people are lovely, and finding a safe space when it feels like the world is out to mock you while you yourself don't feel comfortable even in your own body is hard. I respect the challenge that you're facing and no one deserves bullshit PM's from assholes, regardless of reason. So I ask, maybe you can loving meet in the middle on this, and recognize that occasional toxic behavior and extreme rhetoric being used when it's going on?

Also that trans swimmer lady is like 8th overall. (here's her performance record: https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/) But also she set a lot of records? I don't know what to make of that because on the one hand I don't competitive swim. But on the other hand, hyper competitive types are huge whiners so....sour grapes also?

Maybe a good middle ground is just to slap a little T next to any records set as "Trans" so we can still respect the accomplishment but understand that there may have been some influence due to the gender journey the athlete was on.

Making Trans athletes their own division seems like a smart solution, but there's, what? 20 trans athletes? I just don't think the talent pool is that deep. Hmmm...

Weird how this just keeps happening, isn't it.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 22:22

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Kalit posted:

I’m honestly confused. Obviously, some people are bringing it up in bad faith. But that’s not always the case. How to differentiate it of course is another question

That's... what moderating is. It's reading posts and making that decision that some people are obviously posting in bad faith and some are not. That's the entire job?

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 22:39

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Kalit posted:

TBH, in a vacuum, I could read those as some opinion by a lovely person who I grew up with in rural MN that could be swayed away from their position. Maybe I'm naive, but

You seem far more concerned with the feelings and opinions of some hypothetical dipshit you grew up with than those of the people you're talking to right here and now who are affected by this poo poo so I don't know if "naive" is the word I would use.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 23:22

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Kalit posted:

I'm sorry I'm concerned with changing people's opinions on a forum about Debate & Discussion.

If that's true why are you responding to me but not trollologist

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 23:27

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Probably Magic posted:

You want to have a serious conversation with the dude using South Park as his reference for his argument.

No, he wants other people to have a serious conversation with the dude using South Park as his reference for his argument

It's extremely grating to hear the sadsack "oh but we need to change people's opinions with debate!!" argument get trotted out by people whose only posts in the thread are about how important it is to do that while demonstrating no intention of trying to do the work themselves, because what it always comes across as is some guy turning up and saying "argue for your right to exist, trans people, I'll be over there talking about something that matters". It's just demoralizing, honestly

# ¿ Apr 9, 2022 23:44

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Mischievous Mink posted:

Nobody is going to say this in the trans community because it's simply incorrect and wrong.

Failing to properly debate or discuss. If you don't think the trans community should meet loudmouth cis guys who know absolutely nothing in the middle, explain to them why. User loses posting privileges for 12 hours.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 00:33

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

PeterCat posted:

The US Air Force's physical fitness test consists of 2 minutes of push-ups, 2 minutes of sit-ups, and a 1.5 mile run. A US Air Force study of transitioning servicemembers showed that post transition, the servicemembers performed more or less equally with their new cohort, with the exceptions that MTF Airmen did 12% better on the run than cis-gendered women, while FTM Airmen scored slightly better on sit-ups than their counterparts.

So, given the difference in performance for MTF Airmen, should they have their own run standards to be scored against to make things equal to their cis-counterparts?

No? It's not a competition, it's "can you operate above this completely arbitrary baseline", so what does it matter?

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 02:14

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

PeterCat posted:

It is a competition. Your PT score adds to your promotion points. More promotions points means you get promoted ahead of other people competing for the same promotion. If you have 2 people who are otherwise equal in schools and performance and one has a higher score on the PT test, they are going to get promoted first.

That would be useful context to add to the post! In that case: still no, for a couple reasons: 1. the variation on average is barely there and trans people are such a vanishingly small part of the military it doesn't even seem necessary, 2. being trans in the military comes with so many inherent disadvantages I don't see the need to single people out more, 3. nobody cares, work harder

e: I forgot 4. gently caress the army and the cops even if they're trans

some plague rats fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Apr 10, 2022

# ¿ Apr 10, 2022 02:21

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Jaxyon posted:

A great example of this is thread poster Internaut!

Who is already off probation despite posting seriously transphobic poo poo and also seriously racist poo poo

Speaking of racism have you read the posts by Internaut!?

Actually the real problem was his poor discussion practices, which is hardly more than a 3 day offense, isn't it

Incidentally this article was really interesting and everyone should at least try and read it

woozy pawsies posted:

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/

# ¿ Apr 13, 2022 00:13

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Miss Broccoli posted:

Someone who does, or does not, participate fairly in sports

cheating at football until they change my gender ID

# ¿ Apr 16, 2022 09:19

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 19:50

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Miss Broccoli posted:

Its absolutely, utterly ludicrous that people are getting probated for calling this cigar a cigar as another poster put it.

Cool has utterly failed to back up his assertions that are buried in his Just Asking hypothetical. Its absolutely ludicrous that he thinks this is a study that shows absolutely anything at all.

That is a quote from one of them. The people who conducted the study failed to even see that there was any sort of baseline that would allow for them to make a meaningful comparison. It's lunacy to think that the studies Cool cited have any sort of meaningful preliminary evidence in them. The refusal on cools part to engage with this is incredibly dishonest.

CC got banned from the thread, she's not coming back. You can move on

# ¿ Apr 18, 2022 00:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete? (YES)