Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

(Thread IKs: weg, Toxic Mental)

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Cugel the Clever posted:

A bit of a tangent from the war coverage.

Before the invasion of 24 Feb., dozens of Ukrainians contributed photos and videos to Google Maps of the city that was Bakhmut. I'm sure we've all seen the drone video and satellite images of the horrors inflicted, but the slices of life these offer provide a much-needed human scale to all that was lost. Bakhmut was no tourist hub, no world-renowned center of economic or cultural activity. But it was a place some 72,000 Ukrainians cherished as home, now utterly annihilated by Putin's war of aggression. Virtually all of the men, women, and children in these photos are either war refugees, soldiers, or dead. Similar scenes can be found across the vast swathes of invaded territory. All because Vlad wanted to make Russia great again.

In the last year, we've seen a number of randos inexplicably wander into the thread in a huff that posters here feel so strongly about the conflict, decrying the enthusiasm displayed for Ukraine persevering in the face of the Russian onslaught. Many sling accusations that the conflict is treated as a sporting match, where we're rooting for "our team". I'd say that reveals a lot more about the accusers and their understanding of the situation than those they're presuming to understand the motivations of. I'd wager that most folks here aren't arbitrarily cheering on the Blues over the Greens—a conflict between two all but indistinguishable sides in a fight fundamentally lacking in stakes. Though I'm personally well outside the conflict zone and it's had negligible impact on my daily life, that certainly doesn't preclude empathy for the millions of Putin's victims. To look at what's happened and come to any conclusion but "Ukraine must win this war" is impossible for me to grasp.

I'll post a few of the images. Sorry if it comes off as voyeuristic or touristy, but taking the time to poke around at these images and videos people cared about enough to put up for all to see was genuinely moving. I hope one day the people of Bakhmut and of Ukraine at large can heal the grievous wounds this war has inflicted.

A bit late, but thanks for this!

# ¿ Mar 9, 2023 13:13

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:26

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

So, Hungarian living in Czech Republic You tuber Adam Something made an interesting post in his community page on Youtube regarding the risk of nuclear war and how the far left and right both use it as a fear mongering tool to get people to go pro-Russian in the war:

quote:

Let's talk about Ukraine and nuclear war.

Regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, a fascinating new (old) line is: if Ukraine loses, there will be peace. If Russia loses , there will be nuclear war. Therefore we should support Russia.

This view has also been expressed recently by the Hungarian chief of Military and Law Enforcement Committee, who also happens to be the deputy president of the far-right Hungarian ruling party.

Interestingly enough, many on the far-left are in perfect alignment on this issue with the far-right. Their reasons generally differ, though there is a definite overlap.

The far-right supports Russia because Russia itself is a far-right, authoritarian regime. Far-right groups around the world tend to show remarkable willingness for international cooperation with each other.
The West is "woke", i.e. degenerate for having women's and LGBT rights. Russia is ultraconservative. Therefore, they want Russia to win.

The far-left supports Russia due to "American Diabolism". This means the US in their view is such an overwhelming, axiomatic evil, that every deed against them automatically becomes good / moral.
The US is the Ultimate Capitalistic Evil. Russia isn't the US. Therefore, they want Russia to win.

There is of course the aforementioned overlap between these groups, namely "tankies". They got their name from their support of Soviets rolling tanks into countries wanting to become independent. These are the "red fascists", i.e. the Stalinists, the "Marxist-Leninists" and the like. This group is made up of 5% East German pensioners, and 95% terminally online Western young adults.

These groups might be different in many ways, but there is one big commonality: they use the risk of nuclear war as a disingenuous fearmongering tool, to try to stop support for Ukraine, in order to achieve their own political goals.

Therefore, I wanted to talk briefly about the risk of nuclear war over Ukraine, and why it's not happening.

First off, notice how both groups treat Russia like some force of nature without any agency. They treat the threat of Russia launching nukes as an automatic consequence rather than a choice the Russian elite has to consciously make. As far as I can see, there are two main sources for this:

1) internalized American exceptionalism
When you believe, consciously or not, that America is exceptional, superior, and is generally above other, "lesser" nations, you'll view other countries as mere pawns on a chessboard. Kyle Kulinski is a good example: right before the Russian invasion, he advocated for turning Eastern European countries into "buffer states". This isn't much different from the "superior" British in their benevolence deciding what's best for their primitive colonial subjects, because they "obviously" cannot be trusted to make decisions on their own.

2) plain concern trolling
Grifters and propagandists deliberately shift the discussion away from Russian agency, to put the onus on the West / US. The easiest way to end the war in Ukraine is for Russia to withdraw. As soon as they did, the war would be over. However, these people never seem to mention this. It's always a laundry list of what the West and Ukraine should do to end the war, otherwise we'll have...

Nuclear war.

The thing is, we won't. Not if Ukraine wins. Russia regularly performed nuclear saber-rattling precisely to scare the Western public, thus try to reduce weapons shipments to Ukraine. It didn't work, plus China and India both told Putin to stop, which he did. This indicates the "seriousness" of his threats.

If Russia was serious about its nuclear threats, how come they haven't dropped, say, a smaller, tactical nuke on the battlefield somewhere as a demonstration? If they're willing to wage nuclear war over Ukraine, surely they would be willing to drop a small, tactical nuke as a warning. But they didn't, because they never planned on nuclear war in the first place.

Russia can't just start a nuclear war by Putin accidentally elbowing a big red button. The Russian nuclear forces would be assuming a very clearly visible offensive posture first. Then, the order of a nuclear strike has to go through a whole chain of command.

But even if Putin orders nuclear war, what then? He dies, along with the entire Russian leadership (and much of the Russian population). The Red Button is essentially a Suicide Button.

Would Putin commit suicide as revenge for losing Ukraine? Putin is ideologically driven to some extent, meaning he believes much of what he says, but he and the Russian elite is far more interested in money, power and Western luxuries. Russia is a mafia state, run by self-centered oligarchs. And self-centered oligarchs don't particularly like dying in a nuclear inferno, as that makes it harder to enjoy their yachts and 30-room chateaus (funded by Russian taxpayers).

In short, no, Putin will not press the Big Red Button over Ukraine.

Paradoxically, a scenario where Ukraine loses would pose a bigger nuclear threat. Once it becomes clear that larger neighbors can get away with territorial conquest and nuclear saber rattling in the 21st century, you'd see regional wars break out all over the place. China would make a move on Taiwan, India and Pakistan would go at each other, and so on. Many potential participants in such regional wars are also nuclear powers. With Ukraine losing and the new precedent set, all over the planet we'd be seeing nukes fly in short order.

Therefore, if we really want to avoid war, conventional or nuclear, we should make sure Ukraine wins this, and takes back as much territory as it can. The coming spring/summer offensive will decide a lot: if Ukraine is successful in liberating the south, they'll have a very good chance for the liberation of Crimea. If Russians stop the Ukrainian offensive, we might just end up with a settlement. At any rate, we shall see.

https://www.youtube.com/@AdamSomething/community

Its a bit long but well worth it in my opinion!

# ¿ Mar 9, 2023 18:59

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Karma Comedian posted:

Russian diplomacy:
https://twitter.com/PMSimferopol/status/1634111915596173312?t=PCYmqx6p5RuTYEafNZqNOg&s=19

loving amazing, they are literally legitimizing the georgian people to stand up because they are OUTRIGHT saying "yes this is our doing, we'll take you next so stop complaining and just lay down or you will die"

# ¿ Mar 10, 2023 16:02

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

GABA ghoul posted:

Reminds me of that club fire in Russia a couple of years ago where over 100 people died. IIRC the ceiling was highly flammable, a band was using pyrotechnics and all but one emergency exists were intentionally locked. My feeling is that fire safety standards aren't very thoroughly enforced in Russia

To be fair this sounds exactly like every major club fire ever the world over.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2023 12:17

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

So, one of the Russian propagandists collapsed live on air, not sure if this is new or old but i don't remember hearing about it and figure it fits the discussion:
:nms:

i guess if you get concerned when people collapse?
https://imgur.com/v7nd3wJ

# ¿ Mar 21, 2023 22:21

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

rodbeard posted:

(War, huh) Yeah!
(What is it good for?) Absolutely nothing, uhuh

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

quote:

�War, Nobby. Huh! What is it good for?" he said.
"Dunno, Sarge. Freeing slaves, maybe?"
"Absol�well, okay."
"Defending yourself against a totalitarian aggressor?"
"All right, I'll grant you that, but�"
"Saving civilization from a horde of�"
"It doesn't do any good in the long run is what I'm saying, Nobby, if you'd listen for five seconds together," said Fred Colon sharply.
"Yeah, but in the long run, what does, Sarge?�

# ¿ Mar 28, 2023 05:29

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Alan Smithee posted:

wonder if the new york street pizza is any good

Italy is a stone throws away and you want to bring in american bastardisation here??

# ¿ Mar 28, 2023 21:43

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Negostrike posted:

There's no "anti-americanism" in this. He just said the truth. NATO is just making this poo poo worse. The only way to end this war quickly is to have a negotiation and both Ukraine and Russia are gonna have to compromise and yes, Ukraine and sorry liberals like you will have to swallow their tears and concede at least Crimea. Cruel reality, isn't it.

No. Get out of this thread.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2023 23:39

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Dwesa posted:

about that earlier AI's Ukraine report...

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1651870213070110721

Cool, i'm glad i cut them off and will never give them money ever again.

Pieces of poo poo.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2023 13:41

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

This has to be because they sincerely believe they can never actually really lose to Ukraine right?

"How could these mere untermenschen (insert the K word slur they use instead here if you want to be more accurate) possibly beat us? We won't lose, so let us waste tactical ammunition to commit warcrimes, which of course we do not see as warcrimes at all."

loving savages, demented fuckers.

# ¿ May 1, 2023 02:14

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Pekinduck posted:

The UN just passed a resolution acknowledging Russian aggression in Ukraine.

China voted in favor.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/16484

Yeah i saw this earlier and wanted to post it but couldn't find a reliable news outlet.

That is.. Oooooof...

We know China doesn't really care about human rights and all that but it must sting as gently caress having your "forever friends" siding with the rest of the world.

How will tankies treat this one i wonder.. Big papa China says Russia is the baddie!

# ¿ May 2, 2023 03:56

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

HonorableTB posted:

When do we rename NATO since we have abandoned the NA part of that

Northern Hemisphere Treaty Organization? Hmm..

# ¿ May 10, 2023 16:34

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tarquinn posted:

CONAN

Coalition Of Non-russian Aligned Nations

CROM

Counter Russian Operations Mandate

And if they will not listen, then to to hell with them!

# ¿ May 10, 2023 16:51

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

One the one hand lol, lmao

On the other, fuuuuuck i really hope it doesn't turn out this drags Belarus fully into the war..

# ¿ May 13, 2023 20:04

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1658459821123698693

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/16/macron-follows-britain-french-storm-shadow-missiles-ukraine/

More missiles on the way, French variety this time.

# ¿ May 16, 2023 16:54

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Its real, or at the very least i choose to believe its real, but it almost feels like a scene from an anti war movie.

The Ukrainians are really good at their PR work. Goddamn.

Gejnor fucked around with this message at 01:23 on May 18, 2023

# ¿ May 18, 2023 01:21

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

South posted:

Issues

Try everything you can legally, and uh, maybe don't post about things that could be used against you by ideologically motivated internet trolls.

I really do wish the best of luck for you both.

Gejnor fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 21, 2023

# ¿ May 21, 2023 16:59

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Mr Teatime posted:

Why is nobody talking about the true perfidious devils, the global centre?

When the space elevators are built around the equator, the global centre will reveal itself and enslave us all!!

# ¿ May 21, 2023 23:35

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

lomzus posted:

https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1660909187348439041

Payback is a motherfucking bitch, ain't it, Murderers?

The Dutch have not forgotten and, i suspect, will never forgive either.

# ¿ May 23, 2023 15:13

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Runa posted:

potato salad, potato salad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an289RSt1Cc

# ¿ May 27, 2023 22:40

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Has this been posted yet?

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1662705157996441600

Russian authorities are possibly going to increase the workweek to 6 days without extra pay to help out with the war effort.

But sanctions aren't working.

Please lift them!

But they aren't working at all!

# ¿ May 28, 2023 18:17

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

ded posted:

my friend, have you seen japanese toilets?

They're years ahead of us!

# ¿ May 29, 2023 00:45

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

beer_war posted:

https://twitter.com/UN/status/1665932022160965632?s=20

Happy Russian Language Day to all who celebrate.

And once again, the PR people are Ukraine are doing above and beyond work:

https://twitter.com/Ukraine/status/1666051761096867844

# ¿ Jun 6, 2023 21:58

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

zone posted:

Link

gently caress you rear end in a top hat. makes it so this is all I can say concerning this baldfaced lie, so I'll leave it at that.

Die screaming you bastard.

Preferably on the shitter with polonium poisoning.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2023 02:33

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

HonorableTB posted:

I'm not sure what to make of this tbh

I won't deny it, its a bit crazy.

But on the other hand, member states can act individually if they so wish.

Perhaps this could, in theory, make Russia finally back the gently caress off if actual polish fighters join in to help defend Ukraine.

Even the suggestion of it becoming a reality might do it.

But i am not a military expert, i do not know how a nation that has proven to be increasingly erratic, not to mention incompetent, like Russia might respond.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2023 03:00

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

HonorableTB posted:

But anyway we're deep deep deep into Clancychat territory so I'll end it there

My friend this is GBS, not D&D, i say clancychat but with extra sprinkles such as "what if aliens" are fair game.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2023 03:06

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1667925508414230528
95 POWs have come home.

This is the face of someone who still doesn't believe they've been freed. Kind of nuts.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2023 19:17

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Killer robot posted:

Gonna think about this the next time I see a thread get a two-page derail about a provocative headline that isn't actually supported by the article most of the posters didn't read.

Buddy, "provocative" is not the word i would use to describe that headline.

Its just plain 'old dumb.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2023 17:18

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

forest spirit posted:

Oh I'm just happy it isn't a neonazi symbol, this isn't a boat gloat

I think he means that whoever gave you that AV wanted to gloat about how Ukraine had to scuttle their only seaworthy naval ships or whatever.

That is indeed a very weird gloat imo.

"Sensible actions at the start of a war?! lmao, morons!"

# ¿ Jun 13, 2023 16:14

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Has anyone commented on the Washington response to a potential destruction of the Zaporizhia Nuclear Powerplant by Russia?

Cause they are now saying outright if this happens they will consider it an attack on NATO and that Article 5 will be enacted.

Risky, since it can escalate things, but at the same time i agree that a clear "gently caress around and find out" needs to be told to Russia since they think they can constantly push these horrible atrocities without any sort of consequence.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 14:14

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Dwesa posted:

isn't it still just Senate proposal?

That it is!

But i suspect it will pass, being bipartisan and all that:

https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1672029829573787648

I may have misread it a little bit, i thought it was a done deal to be fair.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 14:24

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tigey posted:

Certain parties in the US may be willing to make these symbolic political gestures that they consider an incident like that to be a red line that is Article 5 worthy, but would all of NATO? Would Germany, or France do so?

Uh.. Maybe, just maybe, they would care even more since a nuke or a busted nuclear power plant could irradiate Germany, France, potentially all of Europe too if the winds are right?

If they do nothing, they could also very well be next.. i.. i do not understand your way of thinking here honestly.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 14:38

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tiny Timbs posted:

Yes, that's the idea behind it but it's far from a given that a country like Germany would actually be willing to enter a full-scale confrontation over an environmental disaster like that.

I just think its more likelier that a country or set of countries in the immediate area would have an easier chance of responding to this than a nation that is , essentially, outside of the zone of consequences.

Also i have to say, breaking a dam is an environmental disaster.

Setting of a nuke is not, that's a direct confrontation and escalation never seen in modern history, same with the deliberate destruction of a nuclear power plant in war.

Gejnor fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 23, 2023

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 14:40

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tigey posted:

Where did I say they wouldn't care? Of course they would be extremely concerned, and worried about the (literal) fallout.

But would they care enough to consider it a direct attack, requiring a military response? That could lead to a nuclear exchange? Some countries might, but would enough?

Countries like Germany might be willing to take some action, like ramping up more sanctions, condemnations, weapon shipments. But would Germany be 100% willing to go to war with Russia over an incident in a non-NATO where the circumstances were murky and unclear? Where there are a lot of narratives flying about that it was an accident, that Ukraine did it, etc?

This is why you don't create red lines you aren't sure you are willing or able to back up.

Well, the implication was there in my mind at the very least, that the US would bear the brunt of enacting Article 5 in this case. Which i feel is wrong, in the case of a nuclear escalation, i believe the nations nearer to it will be the ones who will HAVE to act. This resolution would just clarify things.

At the same time, i have to say, making a red line for something that before this conflict was considered unthinkable, a nuclear escalation in Europe post the cold war, is not exactly a weak or bad one?

Nobody knows what will happen if and when that occurs. But it will be beyond the normalcy of any conflict in the last 35+ years.

You seem to think the response will be wishwashy and/or weak. I.. do not think it will.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 14:54

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tiny Timbs posted:

The point is that they're the ones at the front line and thus would bear the most responsibility and risk of enacting Article 5. The stakes are higher for them and they won't necessarily follow unilateral decision-making by the US.

I have to say, i think this is a very American-centric way of thinking, yes Euopean nations would be worried, but a lot of them also have modern historical beef with Russia and have been waiting for a way to pay them back directly.

For a lot of them, this would be the last straw.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 15:08

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

mllaneza posted:

It's a Senate resolution, totally non-binding. What it is is a very strong show of support for Ukraine.

And bobo and MTG aren't Senators (thank all that is holy) so they have nothing to do with this.

Okay, i won't deny i am somewhat ignorant of American politics, it really did look more binding from my end of things.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 15:08

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Tiny Timbs posted:

We got a dose of the Euro-centric thinking early in 2022 when Germany was prevaricating on a response because they had utterly entangled themselves with the Russian energy industry.

Sure, as had a lot of Europe itself, a 30+ year period of Peace was tumbling down, a lot of people weren't sure WHAT to do.. And all the while Eastern Europe was crowing, pointing fingers screaming "See, we told you so!"

Now its been 16 months of War in Europe, the biggest since World War 2, with steadily increasing support for Ukraine that is not truly wavering and Eastern Europe has been on the forefront of provacative responses towards Russia and its allies.

A nuclear detonation would most likely make Poland just outright declare war before the Germans have had time to stop blinking in confusion of what just happened.

And if not them, one of the baltic nations, or one of the balkan Nato nations.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 15:19

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

HonorableTB posted:

lmao gigolo was right, what the gently caress

Wait, i follow this thread pretty well, when did gigolo predict this? i guess i sort of.. blanketed out on that

regardless: lol, lmao!

# ¿ Jun 23, 2023 22:36

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

Mnoba posted:

If poo poo does get crazy, what are some good humanitarian orgs in Russia to donate to that help displaced people and such?

I'm pretty sure all humanitarian orgs in Russia have been banned. So.. Yeah. no.

Also i would not donate to Russia right now regardless. Not until they are out of Ukraine at the very least. That is just me though.

# ¿ Jun 24, 2023 00:03

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 17, 2024 20:26

Gejnor: Mar 14, 2005; Fun Shoe

HonorableTB posted:

best case is putin gets couped and whoever takes over ends the war but lol realistically putin maintains status quo and prigozhin gets to find out what its like to take a long walk off a short pier

Honestly the best case scenario is a long, drawn out civil conflict that ties up a bunch of resources but ultimately fails, since Prigozhin is actually worse than Putin in many ways, after which Russia is on a real backfoot because Ukraine capitalised on the chaos.

# ¿ Jun 24, 2023 00:09

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

«‹›2 »