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This is my favorite show of all time, excited to revisit it! I won't say much about this early stage beyond that there's a lot going on that I very much didn't notice on my first watch. It's working on a fairly allegorical level but at this point it mostly works literally as well, though it's a very heightened melodrama even when ignoring the duels and magic. I personally love all the stylistic choices this show is making and I really need to watch Rose of Versailles and Dear Brother to get more
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Sep 1, 2023 01:47
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Maera Sior posted:People who have already watched the show, please tell me you also continued the lyrics in your head. Definitely
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Sep 1, 2023 04:18
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These episodes are hysterical. The 2 Nanami episodes are great, my favorite bit is Saionji talking about his hidden love but the whole thing is amazing. Miki sees Touga with his sister and immediately starts fantasizing about him. What a normal guy. The show has fully settled into an episodic format here, and I'm a big fan of where it's at
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Sep 4, 2023 18:08
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Ominous Jazz posted:"Your sister is hot but I'd rather be making out with you" is such a power play And Miki's considering it!
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Sep 5, 2023 21:22
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They also share a writer. I mean Okouchi only wrote the Utena light novels, but still. He definitely knew what he was doing
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Sep 9, 2023 05:48
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Big Leg posted:sorry for picking on saionji two weeks in a row but the rest of the cast scooby doo gang running away from him after utena calls him a perverted idiot is too funny It's incredible. The Juri episode is some really good drama, the Nanami episode is amazing, and the Saonji episode is both some nice characterization for him and the first real idea we've gotten of what's going on with the duels. I mean, there's basically no way to no for certain what any of it means right now, but we know a lot more than we did!
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Sep 12, 2023 19:26
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Episode 8 was originally going to be the 6th episode but ended up being delayed because the studio they were outsourcing to hadn't started production. The finished product is a little rough and is the worst the show ever looks unless I'm forgetting something. As far as I know the remaster is purely an hd release of the original animation. Nothing was redrawn or anything, but it looks amazing. There was a separate 2007 remaster that changed some of the audio a bit and made one or two minor editing changes, and that's the version that's available on youtube as well as the one that was remastered for the blu-ray. The only one I know we've passed is that they changed the sound effect when Nanami got hit in the face in episode 6. Almost all the future ones are connected to major plot events in the future so definitely don't look any of it up! This twitter account is also full of spoilers, so don't go there if you're worried https://twitter.com/ohtori_nu/status/1110698464642367490
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Sep 13, 2023 03:28
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I love Nanami because she's a hosed up weirdo, I love Wakaba because she's normal. Episode 12 still hurts even having seen it so many times This almost feels like an ending to the show, do people have any thoughts on where the show could go from here or what they'd think of it if episode 12 was the end?
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Sep 18, 2023 22:58
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13: Clipshow, but some stuff going on there. 14: These new yaoi clones of Utena and Anthy make an interesting first impression but I don't have much to say about them yet. This is a good conceit for an arc imo. It lets us get to the heart of these characters super quickly, and stylistically the therapy elevator doesn't feel out of place. I think the flowers on the desks are meant to symbolize bullying, but I like the yuri idea more. 15: The fans are a strong bit for the student council meeting. The new shadow plays are neat, and I like Utena's advice trying to cut to the heart of the problem. I love Anthy just drinking all the milkshakes, it's so fun. I think this arc has some really strong visuals, and it's a fun way to build minor characters. In a normal show this would probably make the school feel more lived in, but somehow it kinda feels like it does the opposite. Not in a bad way though, the school just never feels real and this only amplifies that in some ways
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Sep 26, 2023 18:02
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16: This is one of my favorite episodes, but I don't really have much to say about it here. I think there's more than just goofs, but not that much more 17: This is ALSO one of my favorites, but more for that good drama. I love Shiori so much, she's maybe the best sicko in the show and it's amazing. Love Juri's tragic love, love Shiori being the most toxic, her elevator scene is perfect. She's as into Juri as Juri is into her but doesn't know how to process it imo. "I love the look in your eyes when I hurt you..." 18: Mitsuru is simply not as compelling but I won't hold that against him. He's still got a good episode with some good bits. As has been mentioned this really ties into some overarching themes and gives some broader insight into the cast. The bit where Anthy implies she and Utena are loving is very funny to me
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Oct 3, 2023 08:01
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If nothing else he certainly gets to the heart of the matter very quickly
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Oct 7, 2023 15:41
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Finally able to post my thoughts here! not much people haven't already said. The Wakaba episodes are so good, I love Wakaba so much. I like Keiko a lot, and I'm very sympathetic to what she's going through, but she's no Wakaba. Easily my favorite duel in this arcBig Leg posted:just a thought on general arc themes now that we've made more headway through this one: the first 12 episodes are about what it means to be a 'prince'. this arc comes from the other side and examines what it means to have a relationship with a 'prince' (maybe more specifically: can a relationship with a 'prince' actually be healthy?) I definitely agree that the thematic focus has shifted. The first arc is about Utena and all the members of the student council and what they wanted, and this is about the different relationships people have with them, and how what the princes want can hurt those around them. I guess if you want to say the first arc is about being a prince, this one is about being a princess. Or maybe about aspiring to be those things Big Leg posted:apologies for the 1000th post, but it is necessary for miki and nanami's response to juri's 'it's a shame you losers can't change who you love' speech to be a part of this thread They're so funny
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Oct 13, 2023 08:13
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TwoStoryHouseCat posted:I'm thinking Mikage's bits are about reproduction. His solution to finding eternity is reproduction. He wants to reproduce badly but can't with Tokiko so needs to find alternatives. Honestly I always read the fingers as pointing to him being closeted and trying to replicate heterosexuality. He sees heterosexual reproduction as the default in society and in nature (the cats) and tries to reproduce it. He represses it when he notices the gay researchers, but ultimately can't do so forever
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Oct 18, 2023 01:33
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I haven't felt lucid enough to say much of substance about the Mikage stuff, but going from that straight into the Nanami recap episode is an incredible bit.
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Oct 19, 2023 16:31
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This arc marks the point where to truly share all my thoughts I'd have to write an essay on every episode. I won't go that far, but I will go into more detail than I have been Episode 25 Akio sucks and has the worst imaginable vibes in every scene he's in, but I cannot deny that his little red corvette is pretty snazzy. I have to say I'm not a fan of Utena and Anthy living with him, given... everything. The baseball student council scene is so good, the ball whizzing by peoples faces, the fact that there are just other people in the background of the scene that we see. Saionji deciding to leave of his own choosing this time is very interesting. Akio talking about how he's Lucifer while holding Utena and the camera keeps cutting to Anthy with this blank expression on her face, the light reflecting off her glasses. He's just the worst. On the other hand we have this bed scene, which I could say so much about. The way they hold hands, Anthy having a flashback to the prince before almost saying something to Utena, it's fantastic. Saionji and Touga are getting up to some real yaoi poo poo before the car pulls into the dojo. Under no circumstances to you have to hand it to Akio Ohtori, but the car scene is incredibly stylish. The endless road, the music, the flashbacks, the way their shirts just magically unbutton, Akio jumping onto the front as the whole thing comes to a climax. What do you all think happened here to make Saionji change his mind? What exactly did he see? The shadow play is calling back to the first episode, which makes sense given this is another Saionji duel. Imagine how pissed Utena must be to learn about the elevator after 24 episodes of climbing those stairs for every duel. The new Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku is a really incredible sequence though. The rose bush growing inside Anthy's uniform is a fascinating image, and the whole thing feels much more ritualistic and mystical than the previous one. Do the cars popping up in the dueling arena represent that Akio is now influencing things more than he was previously? The fact that Anthy saves Utena feels like a huge step forward, though it's only a continuation of things like her actions during the Wakaba duel. If nothing else all the headlights turning on when Utena is about to win is an incredible image. This arc is doing some things with the idea of an automobile, but I'll wait to talk about my thoughts here It's impossible to deny that Touga and Akio are loving here. Just really blatant stuff. For context this show aired on the same channel and an hour before Pokemon did on different days. Episode 1 came out 24 hours after episode 1 of Pokemon. I'm talking about this because I don't want to talk about the actual end to the episode, but also it makes you look at the ending in a new light. Utena wondering out loud about where Anthy is before that last shot is still viscerally unpleasant to watch. This is a new ED, though I don't have much to say. It's nice to see Utena and Anthy kissing, I hope they get a little happiness I wasn't expecting this to get so long, so I'll do the other episodes later. This was pretty stream of consciousness, sorry about that
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Oct 24, 2023 19:15
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Alright, if you insist then here's episode 26! Akio is a little worried about Utena's status as engaged to Anthy. Not entirely clear what's up with that at this point, but I think it's fair to say he might not be pleased with the fact that Anthy seems kind of attached, especially given the way the last episode ended. Kozue jumping out a window to save those baby birds is interesting. It gives Anthy the chance to be probably the most genuinely excited she's been in the show, she seems very pleased to be able to share knowledge about animal care, but it's also a very good look at Kozue in a context mostly divorced from Miki. It also leads into the letter from their mother. Utena's continued obliviousness to how hosed all the familial relationships are in this show as she talks about jealousy of all of them. Kozue's response about "wild animals" makes the parallels (at least as she sees them) to the baby birds obvious. When Utena asked "Is this the garden?" I appreciated Anthy basically looking at the camera and saying "maybe the garden was a metaphor". Utena is eternally disappointed that this show is so abstruse. Cruel of the show to cut from Utena smiling at Anthy to Akio interrogating Anthy. Another scene that's painful to watch, Utena walking in in the immediate aftermath asking if she interrupted some "private brother-sister thing" breaks my heart. That pan up to Anthy's face as Akio says they're practically family kills me every time. This bedtime conversation isn't as meaty as the last one, but the discussion of family is still clearly important. All the chairs at the student council are very good. Miki continues to repeat things he's heard from others. They're correct, but don't seem to be strongly held beliefs. His fathers new wife continues Anthy's habit from earlier arcs of taking positions that are symbolically important to duelists, but I'm not actually sure Miki is aware of this? Weird. Kozue and Nanami's meeting as Kozue waits for Akio is a little scene but I think it's worth noting because I'm not sure if they've interacted before despite all the clear parallels between them as sisters in brother sister duos. The last time we had a scene like this between Touga and Miki Touga was flirting and Miki had that brief fantasy. Touga repeats the line about things you can only have by taking, but Miki seems less receptive this time. The very blunt visual metaphor of the windup bird (calling back to the birds kozue rescued) is fun, and it leads into the car scene well. Kozue (who's like 14 at the oldest, if it wasn't already clear the kind of person Akio is) has almost certainly been getting busy with Akio. Frankly I assume just about anyone who gets in the car with him is, with some possible exceptions to come. Kozue clearly has some very interesting complexes surrounding purity that pair well with Miki's whole Madonna-Whore thing. The way the music cuts out when Miki starts fantasizing about Anthy is jarring, completely takes you out of the scene, works well with the stationary rose. Notably, even in Miki's fantasy Anthy isn't as disheveled as the real Kozue in front of him. Some real purity stuff going on. Miki looks both more and less like Kozue with the windswept hair. And the climax is as stunning as ever Miki and Kozue building a birdhouse makes me think they might actually be making some progress on their own interpersonal drama, even though Miki dueling again marks a clear backslide. The shadow play is i think fairly obviously about how Miki is partaking in a rigged game and can't stop himself from continuing despite his protesting. The two duelists having their swords drawn in sync is a really beautiful sequence. I don't have much to comment on in the duel itself except that it's very funny that Miki loses because he gets distracted by Kozue making moves on Anthy. Also this leads me to a thought I've had since the last time I watched this show, which is that Kozue and Miki have a toxic codependent psychosexual relationship, but they aren't into each other at all. Instead, they keep being attracted to whoever the other shows any interest in. It happened with Touga back when Kozue was introduced (and in the light novel Miki and Touga do end up having sex), and it happens here. Kozue and Miki end having another bad spot in their relationship, but that birdhouse continues to give me hope that there's some improvements being made. Next up, one of my favorite episodes! Zettai Unmei Mokushiroku...
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Oct 25, 2023 00:08
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Been busy but I'm finally getting around to rewatching Episode 27! This is a Nanami episode, so hopefully this won't be as long as the others. (It will be) Nanami having a dream where she digs up an egg, waking up to find an egg in her bed and it immediately cutting to a bunch of different animals laying eggs is a strong start to the episode. I like that her first thought at finding what looks like a plastic easter egg is to assume she laid it, and to scream in despair at the thought. I also appreciate that, in case you didn't realize what this episode was about, the first thing we see after the title card is Tsuwabuki informing Nanami that she has to go to a girls only health and hygiene class. This episode is where I think the previous Nanami episodes get truly recontextualized. She views the world as a place where deviancy is universally punished and the fantasies she had in that episode about Anthy getting ostracized are fears she's constantly living with. It also (with the Touga scenes) gets into how she got this way. This was true of the cow episode as well, but it's at its strongest here. It's still a very funny episode, but one that I can also take completely seriously. Nanami might be my favorite character in the show, and this episode is a big part of the reason why. If not my favorite she's definitely up there. Nanami has a pretty obvious crush on Utena that she's handling super poorly, right? The way the flowers frame her approach after the sports incidents, turning red when Utena touches her, the fact that she'd prefer a girl as said later this episode? Or am I just seeing things? This episode has a very goofy concept but all the fantasies about everyone she knows abandoning her over being too attached to an egg, when in reality they seem fairly worried about her, do hit for me. It's incredible that I'm so sympathetic to this character who did very much drown a kitten that one time, but I am. How exactly is Miki telling all this about the egg? I'm sure there are signifiers that would make it possible to do that, but it really just feels like he went "It's warm and it's got this weird pattern on it". There's a lot that could be read into the progression of her prison fantasies but I'm writing enough as is. Nanami's dedication to coming off as normal in this episode is a sight to see, but there's not much I can say about the Miki scene or groupie scene that isn't repeating myself. The Juri scene is just impossible to translate, but I really like it. It's the funniest bit of the episode, it's the least subtle bit, and that last shot of Juri bowling just kills me. The way it transitions to Nanami polishing her egg and singing to it about how she wants to raise it right is really good as well. Just a really sweet moment that sells her feelings. The montage with the song is laying it on a little thick, but I still like it. Tsuwabuki trying to make it clear to Nanami that he wants to help her any way he can and Nanami basically just says he can't help. Maybe I just have brainworms, but even this beat feels so much more dramatic than similar things in previous episodes. Him immediately going to her friends to try and ask for help was a nice beat. Anthy says "It's like she laid an egg" which is an insane thing to say in this scenario. Why did you say that Anthy? What did you know? Your cow named Nanami was the cause of the episode where Nanami turned into a cow, so did you do this with your chicken somehow? Why are you naming all your livestock Nanami? Anyways it's very funny to see Utena defend Nanami and Anthy clearly not buying it. This scene with Nanami and Touga is incredible. I don't feel like it's that obvious which Touga prefers! The birds punctuating her remarks, Touga's hypocrisy and practiced homophobic speech, the fact that it goes completely over her head. I want to know what was going through his head when he said that bit about how they can only live happily because she's not the type of girl who lays eggs. Did he just cut through the metaphor and assume she was on her period? I don't know, but it works on the top level so who cares. Barbershop boys making eggs and Nanami making the MASSIVE mental leap that everyone else who lays eggs must be eating them is such a funny beat. I like the shadow play ending with the weird egg monster eating them, just a really good usage of the shadow play. Pretty short too, so it fits really nicely into the episode. Nanami leaves her egg in the woods to live free like a stray animal an 8 year old finds and has to let go. I'd forgotten that Touga does the whole "because you're not the kind of girl who lays eggs" speech again, what an rear end in a top hat. The fact that Saionji now lives in the woods because I guess he just didn't get his dorm back after being kicked out is so loving funny. He's just got a bowl full of eggs he found in the woods I guess? And when one of them was like, green with purple stripes, he just threw it in too. Why not! I love that he's just completely unaware of what's going on, he wasn't informed there was an episode happening so he's just like "Eggs are something you eat" when Nanami starts crying and beating him up. I would never have expected to like Saionji so much as a character, just a deeply pathetic weirdo. And then she just leaves and he fucks his egg up! He was just trying to be a normal helpful guy! I appreciate that they decided they had the footage of Utena and Anthy in bed so they were going to use it. This conversation is so weird, I love it. Elephants leave to go die alone, reincarnation, feelings passed down generations. Utena's like "hey, why are we having this conversation?" and it holds on Anthy's face for long enough that it makes me feel like I'm intruding on the scene. And then there's the ending! The big egg. Nanami crying about how she won't abandon it again. And then it hatches and shoots lasers? And she just cracked it in her sleep? And maybe it was Chuchu's egg? Man I don't know. But I loving love this episode
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Oct 27, 2023 18:00
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These writeups are getting out of hand, I need to try and cut back next week. I had to cut some stuff because it was a little spoilery! It was originally even longer! Also, now that we've seen the hosed up gay yearning bed, I can share one of my favorite Utena posts of all time https://www.tumblr.com/empty-movement/723454037341716480/1110-no-notes
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Oct 27, 2023 18:09
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Since everyone seems to enjoy these I'll keep them coming! Episode 28! Whispers in the dark Excited to talk about a Juri episode! It opens with her saying "I've never said I'm gay but I've always known in my heart" as we hear the sound of fencing and the camera pans over maybe the most hosed up architecture we've seen in the show. The orange rose spins over the empty bench next to her as she looks out over what I think is a lake that's burnt orange because of the sunset. A strong start! Ruka suiting up is a very well directed scene. There's also a bit where he jacks off his sword which is definitely thematically meaningful. Miki blushes when Ruka apologizes for stealing his spot. Utena and Anthy observe and they directly face the viewer, which is an interesting touch. When talking down to Juri about how she hasn't improved at all he repeats his earlier bit of sword jacking off. What an rear end in a top hat. When he takes off the mask his roses are white, maybe foreshadowing that he's dying. At this student council meeting they're sitting at a table ready for dinner with what looks like a menu on the plate. Nanami is trying very hard to cut it as they discuss Ruka's return. As someone still in her sickbed I feel completely comfortable saying that Ruka sucks. It seems pretty obvious what he means when he says he's been talking to End of the World. Nanami is choking down the paper which is another thing that feels meaningful but I'm not up to thinking about rn. Maybe in reference to her accepting the things Touga tells her but being very uncomfortable with them (as seen in the egg episode). Very funny that Ruka just decided to gently caress with Shiori here. Why'd he do that? Did he know how important she was to Juri at this point or did he just see a girl at his locker and decide to start lying to her to see if she'd go along with it? Again, Ruka gets white flowers. I love the flashback fencing with the silhouettes, very stylish. There's a lot going unsaid here but I don't think it really needs to be said. Ruka's an rear end in a top hat but also Juri is being super possessive of someone who says she doesn't like her. Bedtime conversation is pretty short here, but still nice to see. Shiori is very flushed after running to meet up with Ruka. Juri watching them kiss as Ruka looks at her is super hosed up, I love it. What did Juri expect after running off to watch their date? He's not working on the dub, it's not that hard to put 2 and 2 together. This school has so many large rooms kept entirely empty aside from one singular set piece. Juri has a thousand yard stare after Shiori told her she was awful, but I don't know what she expected. I think it's a little funny for Touga to give the car speech to someone who is completely unaware of the duels and the rose bride. No subtext in this car ride, Shiori and Ruka are just loving in the back seat. Akio and Touga were basically superfluous. Their conversation removes some subtext as well. Car ride = sex = adulthood, and in the end it's not going to end well for these teenagers to treat life like that. This is going to be on the test later so I hope you're taking notes! Utena must be getting some serious deja vu re: the black rose arc here, she's just met this guy and doesn't know anything about him but he wants to duel. I assume the shadow play is about how Shiori could have a real catch (Juri?) but keeps dating people for bad reasons and they end up sucking. The duel is good, but I don't think that interesting. Maybe it's just that I kind of find Ruka to be void of charisma. It is interesting to hear him express doubt, but I really don't feel like he's sincere. The duels here trace a lot of footage from the first Juri duel, which I think is neat. Ruka revealing that the whole relationship was a lie is a good scene though, and Shiori just breaking down is good too. Juri asking him what he was thinking makes a good ending to what's basically the first half of a two parter. I also like Utena seemingly finally realizing Juri is gay in the next time on. I'm not at 100% rn so this wasn't as fully done as I might have otherwise done but it's alright. 29 and 30 (which I am NOT looking forward to. not because it's bad, but because I know it's going to ruin my day) will come later
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Oct 30, 2023 08:51
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Ohtori Akio posted:really killer dramatic episodes this time. I agree with all of this, especially the stuff about 30. It's so hosed up, I hate watching it but it's incredibly good. I love Juri and Shiori so much, and even if I don't really care about Ruka he works pretty well here. Pyrotoad posted:This guy's voiced by the same guy who was Joey Wheeler in Yugioh in the dub and it killed me the first time I heard it. There's so many instantly recognisable 4kids voice actors in this (and then also Crispin Freeman), like how the OG Berserk series dub has Dr. Eggman in there. I can't watch the dub for this very reason. Utena being played by Misty is just too much for me to hand;e
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Oct 30, 2023 08:56
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gently caress Ruka, when I'm diseased I don't use that as an excuse to sexually assault people I just post about Revolutionary Girl Utena. Episode 29! It feels pretty obvious to me that Shiori never really loved Ruka and it was all a way to try and hit at something in Juri, but didn't realize that herself. I'm not entirely clear on how much people remember from the black rose arc, does Shiori remember that Juri is in love with her? It doesn't change that much either way though, since the scene where she tries to win him back is still super rough to watch. She attaches all her self worth to her connection to him and the second he cuts her off it kind of breaks her. I like that Anthy notices Juri walking by, which prompts Utena to see her as well. The lack of the normal title card sting is interesting. It kind of makes it feel like this is just the second half of 28 when combined with the way they run right into each other, which isn't something any of the prior non-final duels have gotten. I appreciate how worried Utena is about Shiori, she's a good egg. She seems to think Shiori and Juri are very good friends though. The room with 3 chairs is interesting, kinda set up in a love triangle formation. Juri looking at Shiori looking at both Ruka and Juri. They'll sit in their respective chairs throughout the episode. This bedroom scene is really good. Utena asked Anthy if she sometimes did things she normally wouldn't! And Anthy almost answered! It does feel more about them than it does the actual plot of the episode though. Ruka is vague about his goals here as he rides in the sex car with Akio and Touga, but admits he wants to prove miracles exist to Juri. When Juri visits Shiori it's really well directed. The whole thing seems to be from Juri's pov as she looks at Shiori's face, then her hand, then her face again. Shiori: not handling the breakup well, and is in fact basically where she was at the bottom of her therapy elevator. I'd say she needs therapy, but she tried! Ruka is clearly twisting the knife by asking how anyone could possibly love Shiori. The scene where he pins her to the wall is just awful. I'm glad the show is explicit that she does not reciprocate at all, but jesus. I appreciate the shot being framed from so far away, the distance makes it more explicitly non-sexy. He's clearly just trying to hurt her at this point, with the chaotic jazz blaring as he threatens the locket, but I don't believe that was his goal from the start. He was definitely thinking he could date Juri for a while. And the jazz keeps going as the duel starts and we get the eyecatch. Instead of seeing the duel we cut straight to the aftermath, with Ruka continuing to talk about how disappointed he is in Juri before summoning the car. I did laugh at him asking Touga to say the line. Ruka continues to suck in the car, as Juri claims she doesn't care if Shiori knows how she feels, she just wants her to be happy. Akio and Touga were completely unnecessary for this scene, huh. Juri clearly doesn't want to duel here, from her body language and the way she delivered her challenge. Also Ruka just has the car in the hallway of the school. No shadow play here, just Shiori standing in front of the wall. Not sure how to interpret that, maybe just as commentary on how she's always playing a role and never showing her genuine self. The way it's cut does make it look like she's staring up at Juri. It's bullshit Ruka isn't in the dress, but I guess he's too much of a prince for that. If he was dueling with Juri as the bride I wonder if she'd be in the dueling outfit? Juri looks just miserable here, her eyes covered. Ruka doesn't seem particularly happy either. Maybe he's realized he hosed up. There's a video on youtube somewhere that I can't find that compares this duel (with the Ruka Juri duel cuts included) to the first Juri duel in episode 7, and they're identical. Ruka takes the position of Juri, they've clearly traced over the footage. You can go check it yourself by watching the two side by side, it's a really neat way to show parallels in a way that no one would notice on a normal watch of the show. The big difference is that now Juri not taking her chance to win the duel is framed as her heart not being in it, and she's frowning the whole way. I love the way this duel ends. It starts raining for the first time, the castle above them just dumping water out seemingly just to fit the mood. It's just a really good scene. Juri stumbling forward as she clutches her chest, Utena sprawled on the ground. Her just quitting because she doesn't care anymore. It's incredibly pretty. When Ruka tries to comfort her I am so ready for him to die, but I like that she just ignores him entirely. Doesn't even process his presence. And now the Shiori chair is pointed at Juri! Unsure what this means, but hopefully they figure their whole thing out. Juri helps out another girl who got hurt fencing and on her way out passes the shadow play girls as nurses talking about Ruka. He wanted to free her from Shiori the whole time. Judging by the chairs he succeeded, but not in the way he wanted. Shiori is pointed at Juri and Juri is angled slightly askew from where she was. The episode ends as Shiori and Juri walk down the street together, and I almost expected zither music to start playing. Finally this next time on breaks my heart. "Oh yes. There is. Someone I love very much." Probably going to be a bit before the next one, I feel like putting that off a little.
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Oct 31, 2023 01:04
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Nephthys posted:Shiori and Juri also grew up together and Juri was seen as more talented and perfect which caused Shiori to develop an inferiority complex to her. That's why Shiori keeps trying to do things to "beat" Juri by hurting her. She also hates herself, believes that Juri is too good for her and IMO is in the closet. I definitely agree with everything you're saying, especially about loving toxic lesbians.  Big Leg posted:some random thoughts for 28 and 29: Assuming this arc follows the same structure as previous arcs we'll be getting a Nanami episode next (the episode is called her tragedy and with episode 30's preview I imagine good things will happen to her) and then a Touga episode, maybe with a Saionji episode in there somewhere before Touga. And that's a good point about the visual language, that's one of my favorite things about this show Big Leg posted:episode 30 is absolutely disgusting. i hate the way it weaponizes so many of the comfort foods of utena to make you uncomfortable (silly wakaba faces, the nice version of sunlit garden). it's incredible that it manages to make scenes like this feel ominous and distressing: Yeah this episode gives me a pit in my stomach. I haven't done the big post for it yet because the idea of sitting in the middle of that episode for the amount of time it takes to do that makes me feel a little ill. It's impressive how distressing it is Big Leg posted:i like that they're kind of a second yuri bed conversation with different visuals. with that extra context it's something i'd like to pay a little more attention to on a rewatch (that and actually reading the duel lyrics). The previews are fantastic, I highly recommend watching them every time. The duel lyrics sometimes seem just completely nonsensical but sometimes they definitely have meanings I feel like I can map onto the episode or the themes of the show more broadly.
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Nov 1, 2023 19:27
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Ok, time to bite the bullet and actually sit with Episode 30 Wakaba and the onion prince having a very normal 14 year old drama conversation is a good way to start this episode off by making you sit without the fantastic and surreal that suffuses most of the show. These are children. Imagine every time I discuss a scene that has Akio in it or around it (so this whole episode) I end it by talking about how much I hate him. The cake with the three candles right next to the 3 candle candelabra is a strong visual, and Akio acts humblr about it as Utena praises his baking skills. The close up shot of the 3 candles primes us to recognize them as significant, even if it's unclear what it means at this point in the episode. Utena getting jealous and frustrated that Wakaba showed up is bad to see. The things Wakaba says here (The fiancee doesn't matter if love is involved!) are normal Wakaba things to say, and would be charming in other circumstances, but when you know the kind of person Akio is it just feels terrible to see. The flames on the candles waver. Utena blushes, before looking to Anthy and getting a sad look on her face as the flames waver again. Wakaba continues to say standard Wakaba stuff that is only driving Utena towards bad decisions and I can't hate Wakaba but I wish she wouldn't. Starting with solid orange windows with silhouettes speaking before shifting to the standard aesthetic is still a strong choice, and it makes this scene we've seen before of the teacher scolding Utena for her uniform feel unpleasant even before anything happens. I think this is the first time we've seen the vice principal, but his second line is him grinning while saying "girls should wear nice frilly skirts!" so we already know he sucks. Utena is capable of handling them on her own, clearly grumpy about that remark, before Akio shows up. The fact that this school has a sister school in Amsterdam is very funny, and I would like to think about the implications of that instead of what's actually happening on screen. Utena is impressed by how easily he handles them, as he grabs her and walks away with her. His arm still around her shoulder, he defends her against the guidance counselor I hate that he calls her silly girl. Once again the scene starts out orange with black silhouettes before we can see the greenhouse behind them, once again it gives the whole scene an uneasy feeling you'd catch even if you didn't realize what was going on. He repeats the words of the prince, that she's "strong and noble" for standing up for herself there. Anthy watches as Akio says Utena is his very special friend, and the candles waver once again. Utena looks on as he walks away, the candles waver before she berates herself and the camera zooms in on the ring. She's clearly remembering the princes words to her, but trying to distance herself from her feelings. Whether out of loyalty to the prince or to Anthy is up to the viewer to decide. Utena keeps coming very close to noticing important things but not making the final leap. She says "I keep seeing this car" about the car that shows up during duels and when Ruka challenged her and just accepts Akio's claim that it's a popular model that year, though she might have looked into it a little more if Wakaba hadn't showed up and started trying to flirt with Akio again. The upbeat jazz and cheerful animation makes this feel worse than if it was just framed as horror. Akio starts rubbing his car as the two argue, and it's uncomfortable. I hate that Wakaba's in the car for 2 hours with this man, but I don't think anything happened there. Utena seems so low energy compared to normal and it makes me incredibly sad. Wakaba bragging about the drive and then saying Utena must be jealous makes me want to shake her. Anthy shows up, and Utena looks happy for a moment before getting in her own head about her Akio feelings and the prince and the candles waver. They still haven't gone out though. Utena keeps saying the only one she loves is the prince, but is so distracted by this that she fucks up at basketball when she sees him in a window, spraining her ankle. Anthy walking Utena to the infirmary would be nice (and I could just make a joke about Anthy copping a feel) if it wasn't interrupted by Akio in his car as Utena was about to say something important to Anthy. The candle on the right blows out as she sees him arriving to help and we cut to the eyecatch. This episode is full of jazz, as has the arc in general iirc, which I don't think was the case in prior arcs. I'm glad Utena wanted Anthy to come with, and Akio repeating Wakaba's earlier line of "3's a crowd on dates!" as he even reminds her that her own friend said it is just really sickening. Anthy with the shiny glasses saying buh-bye like Utena did earlier when Wakaba left on her date is interesting. I read it as Anthy not being pleased that she's not with Utena, but I can imagine other readings. Utena keeps apologizing for imposing, but Akio says she's practically family. And we know how he feels about family. Utena tries to create some distance by asking about the wedding, and she keeps going when Akio doesn't respond. When he just smiles at her instead of discussing his fiancee the remaining candles waver. Eventually after a pause that probably wasn't as long as it felt he says "She is." and leaves it at that. Akio caressing Utena's leg and foot is just incredibly uncomfortable. The flames waver, Utena accuses him of being a playboy because he;s so good at making girls feel good. She says he feels dangerous but he manages to move past it by saying his relationship with her is the same kind of rulebreaking as her uniform. Utena continues to invoke her prince as Akio moves closer to her face, the show keeps cutting to the candles as the flames sputter, and he kisses her as the candle on the left goes out. It's revealed Anthy is holding the candelabra, and is also watching Akio kiss Utena with a blank look on her face as her glasses reflect the light. Or maybe she isn't, and she's only metaphorically present. It holds on that shot of Akio holding her down and kissing her for a long time, with brief cuts to closeup and to Anthy that don't help. Oh thank god a shadow play. The red shoes are an old story I'm familiar with, but I'm not 100% sure how to read this. My gut is to read the girl dancing as Anthy and the girl who holds onto the shoes but doesn't wear them as Utena. That reads right for Utena in this episode, but I don't feel like it works for Anthy. One candle left, as Utena and Anthy get in bed together. Utena clearly not feeling good after that kiss, she didn't eat dinner and Anthy is worried for her. Utena actually tries to work her way through her feelings about what Wakaba said, which is more than I would have been able to do when I was 14. Anthy says that Wakaba is right, and when asked says that she has a prince of her own. They're holding hands, in what I would find a very nice scene if it had come in a previous episode. As is it's deeply sad. Touga and Akio discuss Utena as Touga calls the shoe Utena left behind a glass slipper. I don't really feel like Utena maps onto Cinderella at all, but this is a continuation of Touga (and now Akio) trying to put Utena into more feminine roles that started with the dress in episode 3. Touga says that he was so shocked to lose the duel that he now loves Utena. They both let their unbuttoned shirts blow in the wind. Now Akio acts worried about whether Utena has eaten. Utena knows something is wrong but can't put it into words, especially when he's the one asking. Kanae shows up for probably the first time since her debut. Kanae is clearly not having a good time in their relationship, and is still worried about the things she was in the Black Rose Elevator. Her mother is also there and Akio immediately takes her away to gently caress her, though only after she asks how his relationship with her daughter is going and implies he might be on thin ice in his role as chairman. The episode ends with Wakaba lamenting her chances with Akio after seeing how cool Kanae is, as the camera slowly zooms in on Utena's face as she denies being in love with him. But the last candle still goes out. The next time on is about blood type personality tests! Anthy is evasive and doesn't reveal her true feelings, which is very true. She fires back at Utena that Utena is self centered and jumps to conclusions, which isn't quite how I would put it but she is very quick to settle on a conclusion and is hard to budge from it. Nanami is more obviously like that, and is also type-B. Her Tragedy is about Nanami staying in Akio's place for some reason, and taking Anthy's place in bed with Utena. This was too long, because I kept trying to distract myself from what was going on but was also trying to get the details of why Akio is so insidious down. gently caress Akio, I am not looking forward to next week. Not because the episodes are bad, but because they're going to be tough to watch.
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Nov 1, 2023 22:24
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Watching episode 33 the first time is maybe the most physically ill I've ever felt while watching tv. It's incredibly well done and I hate to watch it. I'll probably make longer posts about these episodes later, but also I might not! We'll see how I'm feeling Also the Nanami stuff is incredible, best character, I love her so much. Her stuff is also nightmarish! Really good group of episodes to make me feel very bad.
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Nov 7, 2023 05:13
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Well let's go! Episode 31! Type through the pain! Interesting choice to start with the fairy tale intro into the title card reading "Her Tragedy." I think it helps bring the viewer's mind to some parallels between Utena and Nanami that are coming to the fore around now. It also means there's a minute of the episode less they need to worry about animating. The magic moving picture behind Nanami as she answers the phone, together with the way the camera keeps cutting closer to the phone makes this episode start off already feeling like an uneasy dream. The yellow flowers on the table further cement this as a Nanami episode if you couldn't already tell. Nanami is taking pride in her closeness to Touga, she's not like other girls. She says it's because they're joined by blood, but I think the playing pictures (who are laughing and it's very unsettling!) show that it has more to do with her having grown up with him. Touga answers calls from girls while going out with other ones. Kind of a caricature of a playboy here. Nanami is just standing still, watching. Nanami gets into some advice column discussing blood type personality charts and I am shocked that this magazine finds her family somewhat dysfunctional. Touga is a creep towards his sister and just sits in that silence for 10 whole seconds over a still frame, punctuated by a frog. Nanami is as red as she got that one time Utena held her forehead, but goes to her room to feel sad about her and Touga not being as close anymore. Every episode of this show is very strikingly directed and they just get more and moreso as the show goes on. Nanami goes into the bathroom to watch as he is definitely posing for her benefit. There's a little red rose spinning for even longer than the last held shot, this one reaching 18 whole seconds of stillness. Incredibly uncomfortable, thank you. She sneaks out with Touga's phone and he definitely knew she was there. How on earth does Touga have that many girls chasing him? He can't possibly be that hot. Nanami answers the phone, the shot holding for 12 seconds before she frowns. Another phone call, Nanami looks across the courtyard before telling this one she was dumped as well. It's a nice bit of levity when she yells at her posse for having designs on Touga, as well as the 3 glasses guys carrying busts up the stairs and getting pinned between Nanami and Utena as they argue. But even this isn't as fun as it would have been in episode 4, now that we see the things that make Nanami tick, and now that it ends with her being "rescued" by Akio doing some shoujo love interest bullshit. What a piece of poo poo. He even bandages her foot too. Utena's hand brushes his as she grabs the first aid kit and she blushes. Nanami glares at them and I have never related to a fictional character more. Anthy feeds Akio shaved ice as Utena looks on fondly and Nanami is skeptical. She can tell Utena is jealous as they chat at sunset in the ominous and symbolic sculpture garden. The statue they're talking in front of shifts from Castor and Pollux (sibling conversation -- famous siblings, not too hard) to Orpheus (Utena saying Nanami isn't normal and Nanami firing back with Utena's relationship with Akio -- I think this might be them reaching out to save each other from the grooming they're experiencing) to Hades raping Persephone (Utena and Akio, fairly obvious given episode 33 especially) to a chicken on a cat on a dog on a horse (Nanami suggesting they both do their best in pursuing their groomers -- ??? I got nothing. Maybe highlighting how absurd her declaration is?) Utena is also confused by that last one. Nanami knew everyone in the family's blood types but never put it together? I guess when you live in something it's hard to see outside it. I really like how her outburst is animated, the way she deflates at the end is super neat. As she runs off, the music playing is the music that plays in the leadup to duels, which is a good way of showing how much of a shock this is to Nanami. She manages to miss the lack of pictures of her as a baby as well, which is fun foreshadowing for next episode. I like the gag where the camera is alternating between spinning around Nanami's face and the ceiling light and then it turns out she's actually been spinning that whole time and is in a funny pose. "Why are you sitting in the dark?" asks Touga, as if he didn't spend an entire arc doing nothing but. Touga feeling her forehead is shot from a distance, and is given the spinning red rose of uncomfortableness. His joking request for a goodnight kiss gets the same, but neither holds for the 10 seconds required for me to actually count the time. It's nice to see that Nanami's friends are worried for her, and that they're willing to let her crash for a night or two. And when Utena might know anything Miki and Juri get super animated for a second before collecting themselves. It's sweet. Utena is clearly getting really in her own head about it though. Nanami, you cannot rely on this child for housing, this is not sustainable. The golfing is an extremely unsubtle way of showing just how easy it was to get him to agree, as well as giving Akio a way to once again show up like an rear end in a top hat as he forces her to stay with him. The camera breaks some fundamental cinematography rules as we see Utena doing a handstand during Nanami's introduction. Akio gives us what may be a brief moment of honesty when he says he wants to turn his home into a harem, with a purple rose and frog before the just kidding. Anthy and Utena are filming something as Utena displays some awareness of the situation and Anthy is honest with Utena. The fig leaf of "kidding!" is doing a lot of work in this episode. Utena is again trying to keep Kanae in her mind in what I can only interpret as her trying to find excuses to not be in a relationship with him but not really understanding what she's doing, and brings up her loyalty to Anthy before Anthy agrees she sounds like a mental case. An unusual setting for a shadow play, and Utena is once again taking part, just like in the black rose arc. It's I guess about Nanami and Touga being adopted, and Nanami expecting her fairy tale happy ending. Utena expresses some doubt before the monkey catching robot comes back to chase the duckling. Utena is the one to keep poking holes in Nanami's delusions, and Nanami isn't going to be able to work her poo poo out on her own terms and will instead be interrupted. Idk what the deal with the robot is, maybe I could put something together if I went back to the other episode it appeared in but probably not. I guess it's just Akio? If monkey is Chuchu is Anthy I can see it. Anthy intentionally loses at rock paper scissors so she'll be the one to sleep with Akio. This is an obvious act of self sacrifice that makes me feel a little sick. Touga and Nanami's confrontation in this episode is interesting, idk why Touga just decided to gently caress with her. Nanami talks about her love for Touga but believes that if they aren't related she means nothing to him. Utena is shocked, as she gets in the hosed up gay yearning bed with Nanami. They do not hold hands or otherwise observe the rituals we've gotten accustomed to. Utena does try and make Nanami feel better though, which is nice of her. Nanami should really recognize that she does in fact have some friends who aren't just using her to get close to Touga. Nanami leaves to use the bathroom and is faced with the aftermath of Akio once again raping Anthy. It's framed like she stumbled upon a victim in a slasher, and she goes to hide in an elevator as she flashes back to what she saw. It's an extremely powerful moment, as she is faced with what exactly she claimed to desire this whole time and is horrified by it. In the next time on Utena is indignant that Nanami would take Anthy's bed and Anthy responds that she slept in her brothers room. I know this is not the most important thing here, but she did not. Does Akio have a room of his own? He keeps loving Anthy on the couch, does he not have his own bed? Or is he just doing it there in the hopes that his guests will see it? I feel a little disgusted with myself for asking, but I'm curious. Anyways, Utena is still sympathetic to Nanami for being used by Touga and Anthy mentions something we've seen repeated throughout this show about how people can be easily tricked or used by those they love. Clearly speaking from experience. The title of 32 seems related to the shadow play from 30, with the girl holding onto the dancing shoes but never wearing them. I need to go take a shower
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Nov 7, 2023 09:53
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Ohtori Akio posted:that's a hell of a lot more insightful than me. every shot's got something extra to pay attention to it feels like Yeah, I want to avoid just writing down the things that happen with no commentary in favor of actual analysis as much as possible, whether that's actual analysis of symbols or repeated themes and motifs, or just me talking about my feelings about the events on screen. Sometimes I feel like my commentary is a little bare bones but that's fine Maera Sior posted:That is the statue of the Town Musicians of Bremen. Definitely of a different pedigree than the others. Huh. So it is. I'm still unsure what exactly the deal is there, but my best guess is it's about Utena and Nanami as outcasts who will find a home together later that episode, if only temporarily. In Akio's penthouse, so not nearly as nice as the Town Musicians getting a house with no sexual abusers in it for free.
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Nov 7, 2023 17:52
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Big Leg posted:message to all the nanami haters out there
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Nov 8, 2023 06:47
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Nanami is great. Give her another cat, I think she can be trusted this time.
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Nov 8, 2023 09:52
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Episode 32! Gonna be taking some breaks during this one I think. Definitely doing that for 33. This one starts off with Nanami looking out at the city on the waterfront. I feel like this is the first time we've seen this view, or even that this school is near the water, but idk if that's right. If it is then that would symbolize the ways Nanami is seeing the reality of the world around her in a much more material and concrete way than before. Actually that read works regardless, but it's much more striking if it's the first time. Nanami is still listening to messages from Touga's girls. In the living room Utena is stretching with her eyes closed. She stretches a lot when stressed (as showcased next episode) and remains unaware of the things going on in this house. She gives a casual greeting to Anthy, but shakes herself awake and stutters a much more polite greeting to Akio. This sucks. Nanami flashes back to what she saw last night as Utena, Anthy, and Akio make small talk. She glares at them as the title card comes in. Utena gives Akio the credit for cooking while making fun of Anthy for being the one to grow the ingredients sucks. It is a little funny when Anthy takes Utena saying "not much family resemblance there!" as a compliment while salting Akio's egg. Is that just the only kind of thing she can do to show any rebellion? Nanami looks on at the cheerful conversation, furiously stirring her tea. She looks shocked when Anthy acts polite to her, asking her if she wants any, before slapping it away. Utena (reasonably) is upset by this but Nanami just screams about how she can't believe Utena is so blind before storming off. If Nanami was just open about things here (or maybe a little later, I get not wanting to talk about it in front of them) that'd save us some drama later. I hate Akio so much, coming in and acting like he doesn't know what Nanami's talking about but that he's sooooo sympathetic and we just need to give her space to deal with her brother. gently caress him. Anthy looks on at Akio and Utena as Chuchu digs himself out of the jam, which was apparently very tasty. Nanami goes to complain about her living situation to Miki who perhaps does not grasp how serious she is in her complaining this time. Again, it would help if she just said what was bothering her, but I do understand not wanting to for fear of being misunderstood or taken even less seriously. I'm not an expert in written music but Miki's sheet does seem to be blank. Miki is very excited when Nanami offers to switch housing, but she's unwilling to put him in the situation she's only just realized is very bad. She's grown a lot! Nanami looking on and hiding as Touga makes out with Keiko is very sad. Touga notices her and continues to gently caress with her by lying to Keiko about how they aren't actually related. He clearly knows her very well and is just smashing her worst insecurities with a hammer. There's a cut to Anthy asking the spigot "What's wrong?" as she fills her watering can before going back to Nanami slapping Keiko. Touga continues to do his best to make Nanami feel as bad as possible, and Keiko slaps her back. Nanami is having a very bad time and I am very sympathetic to her, but Keiko is right that Nanami is still being very possessive and doesn't actually have the right to decide who Touga fucks. Keiko also hits Nanami in all her worst insecurities just for fun. They just walk out as Nanami begs them to reveal they were lying to her. Anthy's watering can is overflowing because the spigot broke, representing the way all of Nanami's inner struggles are now flowing out in ways they never have before. Anthy and Akio are force feeding Kanae apple slices in an incredibly uncomfortable scene. The apple has forks sticking out all over it. Again, there's a lot of genuine horror in these episodes, this is so creepy and evocative. I don't think we'll be seeing Kanae again. Utena wonders when Kanae will leave so they can eat, as she continues to stretch every chance she gets. I don't think she realizes how stressed this house is making her. Unclear how Anthy is here when we clearly saw her hand feeding Kanae the apple, but she offers to make dinner. I think it's a great bit that the only thing she can cook is shaved ice, and she has to use a handsaw to shave the ice. Anthy telling Utena not to go into the room with Kanae and Akio is the most concerned she's been in a while. Either Akio is sexually assaulting Kanae or is disposing of the body. The shot of Anthy with the saw in front of Nanami as she (I think) is telling Nanami that she knows what Nanami saw is really good. Very threatening. Nanami takes it that way at least, and Anthy is glad to hear it. Kind of an early eyecatch! Nanami is so good in this arc, her comment to Utena about the hosed up gay yearning bed rules. Utena is in fact very dense, so maybe you should tell her straight up what your talking about? It clearly affects her. I understand the impulse to instead be catty and victim blame, but I don't think Anthy looked particularly into what was happening there. The fact that Utena is still like "I'd love a sibling!" after all this is very sad, but the fact that she thinks "one always knows what the other is feeling" is absurd. Has that ever been true for any sibling pair in this show? Even Anthy and Akio don't really present like that. Utena is really bad at reading people, but she is right that being adopted shouldn't matter too much. Of course, it's definitely for the best if Nanami leaves Touga asap in this case. Nanami's phone call transitioning into Akio is really good. Nanami requesting the transfer to a different school may be the most emotionally mature thing anyone in this show has done. It didn't work, but I'm really proud of her. She handled it as best she could, but it turns out it's not that easy to leave by yourself. It does make me laugh a little seeing the car crash through the big glass window to pick them up. Did Juri or Miki recognize Akio when he was driving them? Nanami being the first person to truly reckon with how awful the heart of this show is is a good character beat. Touga sexually assaults Nanami here, and I want to move on quickly. I do think this is important because I think it might be why Touga started lying about the sibling thing, he wanted to try and make Nanami more open to sexual manipulation but it backfired. If she hadn't seen Akio and Anthy would it have worked? I think it is very funny how Keiko gives a little speech about how they won't listen to Nanami anymore, there's no reason to, they never respected her, and then Nanami just slaps the poo poo out of them and they go back to that. Less funny is her slapping Anthy. She feels the need to separate Anthy (who she views as a willing participant in her abuse) from herself. This is a victim blaming slap, and I don't support it. She hits Anthy because she can't hit Touga or Akio. Also I think this is the duel that's hurt Utena the most this arc so far. It's clear Utena views them as friends, and though she felt similarly about Juri and Miki, neither of them were so harsh in their challenges and it was clear that Juri at least was under duress. Utena doesn't know about the car in the way that they do. Juri or Miki should have probably warned her, huh? Feels like an oversight on their parts, they were warning each other about the black rose duelists Is the doubter meant to be Nanami? She certainly has the attitude, and Nanami did get forced into conformity this episode, but I don't know if it really fits. It could also be more broadly about people (Utena and Nanami primarily) not recognizing the obvious abuse in their lives even as it first affects the world around them, then affects them, then harms them. Nanami does indeed have lipstick on while posing on the car, as do Utena and Anthy. Clearly it doesn't just represent having had sex, unless Utena got busy offscreen before episode 33. Nanami just isn't talking at the start here, which makes it obvious that, just as much as was the case for Juri and despite what she says later, she doesn't really want to do this. Touga claims she's here of her own free will, which I guess isn't entirely untrue. Nanami is just looking for the power to become free of the abuse she now recognizes everywhere around her, and thinks beating Utena will give her that power. She's clearly desperate for that freedom, the way she's animated here. I don't normally comment on the duel songs, but this one is about orbital mechanics and is pretty clearly related to how Nanami spent her whole life orbiting around Touga and now wants to break free but doesn't know how. Utena still doesn't realize what's going on and is going "you know adoption is no less valid than blood relation, right?" while Nanami has realized that even if they were blood related it wasn't a healthy relationship to begin with and she should go. Despite everything Utena still hopes Nanami is feeling better. She acts like this is just some outburst Nanami needed to get out of her system, but that's because Utena's stupid, not because she doesn't care. Nanami is still wracked with fear about not being special, which is sad. You're still a main character, don't worry about it! You aren't Wakaba! Anyways Touga and Akio hosed. I saw someone claim there was no onscreen queerness in this show, and though there are other more blatant examples (Juri?????) this sticks out to me. Why was Akio lounging in bed with Touga, shirts open and pants unbuttoned if they weren't loving??? Also the topic of conversation is gross. They both suck, and I do take that as confirmation that Touga did all that lying because he thought it would make Nanami more amenable to things. This next time on is Anthy asking the favor that sets the next episode in motion. That's neat! I already feel sick and I haven't even gotten there yet.
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Nov 9, 2023 03:11
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Lysistrata posted:I am so, so enamored of the stuff being posted here! I wouldn't normally chime in, because I am an untreatable lurker, but I wanted to add something that y'all might not know-- the duel songs were not written for Utena, but they were also not slapped on after the fact. Apparently what the Be-Papas did was listen to the songs while writing and use certain songs to inspire certain characters. Basically vibes-based. The duel songs aren't going to have a 1:1 correlation with the characters, but there is a definite connection. I've been meaning to submit something to Empty Movement for years but have never been able to find an idea that I felt like I could really say anything new or interesting enough to justify it. That may have changed with this rewatch for the thread though, so I might finally be able to pull something together I feel good about submitting And the discussion of Seazer is interesting, I should listen to those new albums
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Nov 10, 2023 13:33
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Alright! Episode 33! I'd been dreading it all week but that's fine I can do this, I have all day because it's veterans day and I didn't make plans. The opening narration over the distant amusement park at night brings it more into the real world. That's been happening a lot lately. In this particular instance it connects the prince's actions years ago to Akio's actions now, and makes this story we've heard before sound a whole lot sketchier. And then the windows shut around Anthy as she turns on the projector. She doesn't want to see the world around her, knowing what she's just done to Utena. She wants to hide behind an illusion, ignore the reality of what's happening. She says so herself, during the phone call that starts during the title card. This opening haunts me. It has ever since the first time I watched it. Break #1 starts as soon as Utena says she had fun that day while stretching. There's a pink and red bouquet of roses on a chair. I haven't talked much about color symbolism because I don't feel like I have much to say. What's interesting to me is that Utena is looking out at the amusement park from earlier. This makes me think that the narration is meant to be her thinking about her prince during the date earlier, or possibly just now as she's stretching, trying to find ways to make sense of what's going on by thinking of the most important moment in her life. The camera just looking at Utena when we know that Akio's there and is probably the pov is nightmarish. Utena is of course bringing up Anthy and wishing she was there, that it wasn't just the two of them now in a hotel together. She says "Have I ever mentioned that I'm an only child?" which does bring me a little joy in this episode because the answer is yes. Constantly. Clearly Utena started this show wanting a sibling, because nothing that she's been through on screen could possibly make someone want siblings. She turns to the camera slowly, letting us see her lipstick and showcasing her dress. Thank god for the shadow play radio quiz show. They say the stars are beautiful tonight but we can't see them. Too much light pollution. All that's available is an illusion, whether it's the lights of the amusement park or the planetarium. We also get a definitive time period, this takes place in autumn. It was in fact mid-November when this episode came out, so that's probably to be expected. It's a night where couples can glimpse eternity. The shadow girls are as curious as I am what exactly this show thinks is eternal, but of course Akio is their first caller. We see him for the first time, his shirt unbuttoned and tie undone. He describes the whole duel-running thing (or possibly the child grooming) as a side job, which is a little funny. Unless he has another side job that just isn't ever shown onscreen, like he does art commissions or something. Is a diamond, a beautiful memory, or canned peaches eternal? Obviously the answer is canned peaches, because while diamonds will eventually break or get chipped away over the years and your memory will fade, canned peaches have a pretty good song about them that'll surely outlast my lifetime. Akio gets a call and heads to work, transforming into his End of the World outfit as he accelerates dramatically. The street lights slam into the camera over and over again, and I am reminded that this predates the porygon episode of Pokemon by about a month. The speeds written on the street become simply the word stop repeating over and over again as the episode transitions into clips from past episodes. The main things it feels are necessary to remind us of here are the fact that Touga and Saionji are super gay, that Saionji was the one seeking something eternal, and that Anthy has been trying to tell Utena something. We cut back to Utena watching tv, what sounds like boxing but is about gaining the title of grand champion imposter king. If you beat enough challengers you gain that title. Very clearly reminiscent of the duels, Utena turns off the tv to continue living in ignorance as she stretches and asks some questions about whether the champion will become the champion king, very clearly ignoring the lies inherent o the dueling as she wishes she could participate. I have good news for her. I'm glad the show still has a sense of humor even now, it does make this a little easier. The things the show finds important from Miki's duel are: Utena being jealous about other people having families, Anthy being Miki's mom (still no idea what that's about), and just Miki and Kozue's sibling dynamic generally. Utena changed into a robe after a shower and is complaining about her classes. She rambles about a teacher who has gone through many nicknames. I think Utena, much like myself, is trying to delay what we know is coming. Here's the eyecatch, with some jazz music that is WAY TOO CHEERFUL for this episode, and I take another break. Utena's body language here is really good. She's clearly nervous before she blurts out that she left the bread out from earlier and she hopes Anthy put it away before it started to smell. Though we know Akio is there, and might in fact be the pov for the shot, we don't see him. Instead we cut to Akio thinking about the Miki duel again. This time the most important thing is that time Kozue started making out with Anthy while driving. That is important, I'm always thinking about it. Akio gets called by the radio quiz again, as they ask him about miracles this time. Edison's inventions, meeting a prince, or canned coelecanth. I think canned coelecanth, because it's a miracle to see one at all and to have it killed and canned would be something else entirely. Akio instead just thinks about Ruka and Juri. Important things: Ruka's introduction, Shiori polishing Ruka's sword, and it being fake, and Juri's breakdown post the locket being destroyed. In the middle of the flashback we cut back to Utena playing go and talking about how bad she is at cooking, and how she can't even follow recipes quite right. While she was distracting herself she gets completely trapped by her opponent. Utena's hand reaches out from below frame to turn out the light. We see Utena, in bed, back to camera before she turns to face it. Back to Akio, not answering the question asked. Utena is visibly nude, though we see no more than the barest edge of her shoulder, and her face and hands. She's talking about how she has to make lunch for the next day, planning it from her leftovers, trying to move past the thing that's happening to her as she speaks. She bites her finger, then asks Akio his opinion. This close up shot while she talks about her meal planning is one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever seen. She gasps, closing her eyes and shaking some, the camera goes back to the STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP on the road as she asks what eternity means and it cuts to Akio's hand in hers. If you didn't realize until now what this episode was now's where you would. The show doesn't linger on it. Akio calls Anthy as we now see his side of the call from the start of the episode. We now see that Utena has been in the passenger seat this whole time as well, as Akio says the stars have been beautiful that night. We still haven't seen them, they aren't real. He looks very pleased with himself, she looks like she's unsure what's happening around her. She openly says she didn't want what happened to happen, and that all she'd been planning on doing was delivering the roses like Anthy asked. We get an atypical ed here where instead of still shots of Anthy and Utena embracing and kissing, we see Akio and Touga driving around. For the next time on, we see that we're going to learn more about Utena's encounter with the prince. Not much to say there, Anthy asks Utena who she is and Utena ignores it. I don't know how obvious it is but I've been writing more when the show itself is distressing, if this hadn't been a clip show I would have written even more. And what a clip show it was! If this was your first episode of Utena I cannot imagine what kind of experience that would be. You wouldn't understand anything. I'm excited for next week, there's some all time great scenes in there.
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Nov 11, 2023 10:53
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We've seen a fair amount of sex at this point if you interpret the car scenes as such, and they're all at best questionable in consent. Several of them explicitly involve sexual assault. Such is the way of things with Akio Ohtori. Well, Ruka and Shiori were I think firmly not sexual assault but they have their own issues I don't fully agree with TwoStoryHouseCat but I think that's not an unreasonable read given what we've seen so far. There's still 2 weeks left, plus the movie, so there's time for the show's themes to evolve and crystallize
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Nov 12, 2023 20:27
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Yeah parents are mentioned, but iirc the only times we see them are when Akio fucks Kanae's mom or when the Kaoru father is remarrying Anthy. Parenthood not really a theme of the show, though there's obviously a bunch of bits that are at least adjacent. Mikage feeling heteronormative pressure to settle down and Nanami with her egg especially
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Nov 13, 2023 00:46
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Episode 34 might be the most important episode of the show to this point. Actual thoughts to come later, but this blew my mind the first time I watched Also seconding Akio that you should watch the last 3 in one sitting. I couldn't have taken a break in the middle of them if I'd tried.
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Nov 13, 2023 19:23
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Episode 34! This one starts off with Anthy and Akio getting dressed, with ominous piano music. Only thin slits of the screen are visible at a time, much like the current ed of the show. Unlike that, where it feels mostly like a neat stylistic choice, here it makes the scene feel incredibly voyeuristic. Akio has a monologue about a comet he discovered that he's keeping secret because that make it feel like it belongs to him even though it obviously doesn't. Stars don't belong to anyone. Anthy tells him goodnight as she walks off and he accuses her of torturing him. She smiles slightly. Seems clear that he blames her for what he does to her, though the extent of that is still not entirely clear. Utena is alone in bed thinking about how she wants to become a prince. This show just has some incredible episode openings with a lot to think about in them, Utena still wants to become a prince despite clearly feeling different about things after 33, juxtaposed with this incredible human suffering only a room away from her The shadow play girls are asking Utena to come watch their play, and though we don't see their faces we get to see them out of the shadows! I remember this flooring me just as much as anything else in this show did, though obviously for completely different reasons. I think this scene is kind of showing that the barriers between the real and unreal are breaking down, not in a literal sense but in the sense that Akio's control over Utena is solidifying while at the same time more people are becoming aware of the things fundamentally wrong at this school. It's also delightful to see them bring their antics into the real world after last week, the way they caress her face and make her hair poof is fun. Anyways, she has 2 tickets to the play now. Wakaba is asking Utena to choose between photos. All screenshots from the show, with a large chunk of them being of Wakaba which is fun. Utena wants one of Anthy though, and is very put out by her absence. Wakaba claims it's because she isn't sociable, but there are 2 pictures of Chuchu which makes that obviously a lie. Anthy is even right next to them, playing with Chuchu and some yarn. Wakaba steals the tickets and points out that the school doesn't have a drama club. Back in the planetarium, Utena has decided that she needs to take a photo with Anthy and has enlisted Akio's help. Sadly she asks him to join them in the picture. The heights in this show are wild. As Akio moves to put his hand on Utena's shoulder, ruining the picture, Chuchu comes in and saves the day by blocking them entirely. As Anthy goes to collect him she also forcibly inserts herself between them. Though complicit (only in the loosest possible sense, given she's clearly also a victim of the same grooming and abuse as Utena) Anthy continues to take every step possible to protect Utena from Akio. In the final picture she apologizes for closing her eyes, continuing the motif of Anthy not wanting to look at the world around her, as well as further making the only good pictures taken here of her and Utena alone. At the same time as this, Akio starts talking about how memories are clearly important to Utena, pointing out the ring as a memento of her childhood. Utena wants to be able to remember her time with Anthy clearly, which isn't a guarantee given later reveals this episode! She also invites them to the play. There are a lot of arrows pointing towards the play, going downstairs and calling back to the guiding hands towards Mikage's underground therapy elevator. Akio says "Life is like a play, you're either an actor or a spectator." I bet he thinks he's the only actual actor in the world. Utena wonders why no one else came. The answer is that the play was designed just for her, as quickly becomes clear. Also, before we get into the actual play I'd like to note that this is all 3 shadow play girls working together, and I like to see it. The play opens with an announcement that this is the story of the prince, and an old man coming on to announce that you must beware, because the people featured in this play still exist in this world. There's a lot going on here so let's get into the meat of things. So first: Obviously the framing of this play isn't the whole story, but I do think it's important to talk about the play on its own without getting into the stuff we learn later. The prince saving all the girls from such horrors as kaiju and being alone on Christmas eve equally is a funny bit. All girls are princesses. To be a princess you must be protected by the prince. A witch, recognizable as Anthy even in shadow play form from the hair and glasses even if it hadn't cut from her saying the word "witch" to a closeup of Anthy. The play claims Anthy steals the light. The light means something different to everyone, just as Anthy herself does. Something eternal, that which shines, miracles, the power to bring the world revolution. The witch steals the prince, and reveals herself to be his little sister. I choose to believe the spotlights laying out the obvious here are for Utena's benefit and are as diagetic as anything in this show is. As his sister she cannot be a princess, and in the world of fairy tales there is only one other option. A girl who cannot become a princess is doomed to become a witch. The witch is still out there and still evil, and Utena must beware for she is looking for new souls to corrupt. I would like to state for the record that the fact that Akio is (probably) the prince does not mean we should simply trust him. Instead, I invite you to question the worth of the prince as a role. Because in the real world the monarchy is an inherently unjust institution, but also because as a role in the story a prince does kind of just represent the patriarchy as goodness. Perhaps princes aren't inherently good? The fact that this is the framing of the shadow play renders all other shadow plays suspect in any meaning we find in them, but I'm going to ignore that because it'll give me a headache. The play is obviously playing into some classic sexist tropes (the way it removes all agency from the women of the world who must rely on the prince for their every need and the only women to avoid that is the evil witch), but the show knows this and is going to show it to be nonsense later. What's really interesting at this stage (hehe) is the way the characters react, but there's a few scenes between the eyecatch that closes the play and getting there. Touga and Saionji are existing in the tension before they release their swords, talking about Utena and how it's worrying that she keeps winning without the sword of Dios. It's because she was shown something eternal as a child. In the aftermath of their bout an incredibly phallic sword lays on the floor, as Saionji learns Utena was the girl in the coffin. We also get another shadow play but it's just them celebrating their successful play. The 2 og shadow play girls make fun of the black rose girl for being weird, which is more than a little hypocritical. The way Anthy doesn't turn around or blink so she's still watching Utena and Akio makes me feel insane. Utena is pretty clearly trying to feel out Akio's thoughts on the play, like I said I think those spotlights were diagetic so she had no choice but to actually confront the things it was saying. And I wouldn't know what to think in that scenario, so I can only imagine how Utena is dealing with the play accusing Anthy of being an evil witch. Akio just sidesteps that by talking instead about the production values and immediately moving into talking about how much Anthy sucks and it must be so tiring spending so much time with her. What an rear end in a top hat. Utena defends her and seems the most comfortable she's felt around Akio in a while while talking about Anthy until Akio gets in her personal space. He asks Utena to define her relationship with Anthy and she can't. She just knows Anthy is important to her. Then Akio gets in her personal space and asks if he's her friend as well because he's a huge loving creep. I don't want to be rude to anyone in this thread, but just because Akio is being less aggressive doesn't mean he's not still actively grooming Utena, and nothing we see here makes it feel any less clear that Akio is the abuser and that Anthy is the victim. Akio grabs her hand and reminds her of the time he raped her before trying to initiate sex yet again. When she says she doesn't want to, he acts as if the only reason she might not want him is loyalty to her prince, theoretically making the eventual reveal that he is the prince pull her closer to him. The prince told her to never lose her nobility, and she's definitely thinking she failed that after last episode. Akio is probing for more information on her childhood, I think because he doesn't remember giving that ring but is in fact The Prince. She doesn't remember. We're now in the flashback to Utena in the coffin again, this time immediately after Touga and Saionji have left. The prince (who I will call Dios) appears, like we knew happened, but it goes a little differently this time. It's not as simple as the storybook opening. Utena calls him pretty, and he walks off for her to follow. She does. Anthy is suffering. The trees in the background of the storybook are the blades extending from Anthy, the witch, the rose bride. They all mean the same thing. Dios is younger now, back to his childhood state, and he envies those who can die. He then switches from first person to third to describe Anthy's situation. She is forever living in agony as punishment. We now get an alternate (truer) perspective on the events of the play. In a cabin in the woods with a fax machine spitting out reams of paper, Dios is hurt and Anthy is trying to comfort him. There's a massive crowd of people begging for the prince to come out and help, but he'll die if he does. He's going to kill himself helping them, and they won't leave. Anthy makes a decision, and is harshly punished for it. And now she suffers for all eternity. Utena is in tears at this story and at Anthy's state. Dios explains the prince she loved is no longer the prince she knew, is now Akio. The End of the World. Utena begs Dios to help Anthy, and he kisses her face like in the storybook. He's older again, and she's beyond his help now. He explains to Utena that the only thing that can save Anthy is a prince she can believe in, someone who she can love and trust and have faith in. If Utena grows up to become a prince, never loses her nobility, perhaps she could save Anthy? And now we know why Utena is so set on becoming a prince. It's not because she looked up to Dios, it's because she saw this incredible suffering and wanted to help in any way she could. She forgets it as she grows up, and Dios doesn't believe she can be enough of a prince to save Anthy as a woman, but Utena believes in herself absolutely. Anthy opens her eyes and sees Utena, just for a moment, before the end of the flashback. In the present Utena and Anthy are in bed together. They aren't going through the rituals. Utena has been having a familiar dream that she can't remember. Anthy has been watching Utena, and is staring at the audience. "Who are you?" This episode has a lot going on! And I wrote a lot! I'll do a tl;dr with some broader takes and theories in a separate post in a bit, and will not be writing as much for future episodes on account of there won't be quite as much going on and this isn't really sustainable
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Nov 14, 2023 20:03
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Big Leg posted:this is kind of dumb, but i think it's neat how many scenes are filled with gaps and chasms and darkness in an episode that fills in some pretty important missing pieces of the story. No I think that's a really cool thing to point out Big Leg posted:i'm interested to see if the third act will be some kind of synthesis of the two or something else entirely. I'm really curious about your thoughts on this at this stage of the show. I personally think that the first arc is princes, the second arc is princesses, and this arc is about the borders breaking down, about the rose bride, they way anyone who doesn't fit perfectly is destroyed and the ways this affects people who try to become princes. In some ways I think all the duelists go through a miniature version of what Dios experiences, of not living up to princehood and being torn down by Akio. But it's also the culmination of the abuse that's been at least somewhat hidden until this point, where all the suffering people go through comes to the surface chrome line fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Nov 14, 2023 |
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Nov 14, 2023 22:04
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Nephthys posted:In case anyone wasn't already planning to, any new watcher should listen to the "Next Time" section at the end of episode 36. I think she's oblivious and ignorant, and that's a consistent character trait. However I do think she's slowly coming to realize something is rotten in Ohtori Academy. Her general demeanor has changed a lot from the start of the show, it's subtle but it's there. Even if you disagree that she might have had a realization about Anthy and Akio specifically, or had any thoughts as to why they were the only ones there beyond "that's weird," I think it's clear that she wanted to discuss the content of the play in that moment (if nothing else because of how it portrays princeliness as a very specific thing that Utena doesn't really live up to) and Akio very much wanted to avoid doing so. I also think the idea that the spotlights are diagetic but she still didn't pick up on anything or think about the way the shadow play girls said "BEWARE" directly at the audience is very funny, so I like that read a lot
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Nov 14, 2023 23:49
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Maera Sior posted:So, when do we get to tell people what Touga's backstory is? After the movie? Yeah, that's when it shows up on screen. Wasn't it supposed to be in the show but had to get cut for time after his VA was sick?
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Nov 15, 2023 22:42
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Maera Sior posted:I know it was supposed to show up in the show but I don't know why it was cut. My guess is that they received pushback on portraying pedophilic rape . What I'd heard was that Takehito Koyasu was sick or injured or something for much of the black rose arc and that's why he barely shows up at all in it. I couldn't find a source for that, or even find where I'd heard it, but it doesn't seem likely given he was still doing a lot of work in 1997. Mostly minor roles, but still pretty busy. Yours seems more likely
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Nov 15, 2023 23:15
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Episode 35! Going to try and make this one shorter, these are getting to be unwieldy Storybook opening again, but it transitions into the flashback from last episode. The episode starts for real with Touga and Akio driving, discussing the duels. Akio puts on the soundtrack and we transition into the next scene with piano still playing. On the one hand this is a common thing that happens in movies or tv, but on the other it does show Akio's influence over the school and the show. Utena is watching Anthy while remembering glimpses of her meeting with the prince. Now it's Utena's turn to bring something up and then demure. They bring into question whether her meeting with Dios was a memory or a dream. Utena asks to see Anthy's face and as they turn their heads towards each other the show really draws attention to that motion. Utena asks "Is it possible that you and I-" and then Akio opens the door. Can't let them actually connect or communicate, that's not allowed! As Akio walks off with Utena Anthy holds her smiling face until a few seconds after the door closes behind them and she looks deeply sad. On the walk Akio continues to casually try and make it sound like being friends with Anthy. He starts talking about legends and symbolism behind the poppy to impress Utena, while the camera pans out revealing they're in a maze with the car there as well. Obviously Utena is trapped with Akio, but given the nature of the poppies she could just walk away. She's physically capable of leaving this maze, but the path out is hard to find unless she's willing to start breaking the unspoken rules. This episode has several scenes where audio starts before the visuals transition. Touga's photoshoot with Akio is audible during the pan out in the last scene. When the camera snaps Akio transforms into End of the World, shirt open and everything, and on future shots his shirt opens further as he poses. They're taking pictures on top of a pyramid of cars, which given the broader symbolism of cars in this arc has a lot of potential reads. Akio demands Touga get Utena a gift, and it's becoming clear (if it wasn't already) that his relationship with Touga isn't that different from his relationship with Utena. Touga finds Utena on the staircase with Wakaba, who remembers the end of the first arc and is still mad. Touga delivers a pair of earrings "from the chairman" and starts fiddling with his carrot. Utena is pleased by the gift, but still knows what she likes and doesn't in clothes. Wakaba forces them on her anyways, and shortly thereafter combos her. Touga gets horny and puts the carrot on his forehead in a piece of symbolism so blatant I feel foolish for even talking about it, and asks her out. It breaks my heart that Wakaba is so worried about Utena being assaulted by Touga (telling her to avoid being alone with him) but was so excited to see Akio's gift. They're riding a horse together, which I will connect with the carrot from earlier. What does it mean? I don't know, but I'm going to say Touga fed the horse his carrot, as a treat. After a quick conversation about how horses are tied to princehood (making Touga's failure at riding the horse compared to Akio's even more obvious as a measure of their true princeliness) Akio saves Utena from falling off the horse. He's even on a white horse. Touga is now introspective, staring out into the distance. After accepting a confession with a quick kiss, a butterfly lands on the rose he was holding. He goes off to homoerotically spar with Saionji who starts insulting him, managing to hit just about all of Touga's insecurities. Their bout ends and the camera focuses on 2 sheathed swords. I assume that means they kept it in their pants until the student council scene. This shadow play is maybe the most blatant in the show, about Touga falling in love with Utena because she's the one girl he can't have. The mermaid who resists him responds "koi" when asked what she is, showing that Touga can have all the girls he wants but he can't get love like that. Anthy is in bed, no glasses, staring at the ceiling. Utena is sitting alone, studying the earrings and remembering her day with Akio. She's starting to believe he's her prince, but Anthy comes to get her. So much of the balk half of the show is finding meaning in Anthy's expressions. She looks so sad. Touga and Akio chat, shirts open among the tiny cacti. I guess that's like a hedgehog's dilemna thing, they're both so scared of pain that they've become people who can only interface with others by manipulating and hurting them. The one Touga's holding blooms in his hand as Akio says he's rooting for him. Touga and Saionji ride the student council elevator and reminisce on their first meeting with Utena. The organ music doesn't kick in until after they're out of the elevator, which is interesting. They're having a press conference to show that even alone with each other they feel the need to keep their masks on. They spend the conversation stripping dramatically, and Saionji continues to genuinely have insight into the situation, which is loving wild. The coffin is a symbol this show has come back to again and again, second only to roses, and Saionji is the one to start actually thinking about what the coffin means. Utena and Anthy are having a picnic, Utena has decided to keep trying the earrings, and is showing them off to Anthy and Chuchu. Utena is reflected in Anthy's glasses, and when Utena turns to look at Anthy for a brief moment she sees Anthy as she truly is, suffering the pain of all those swords she got stabbed with. They're metaphorical swords, but also probably real ones. Utena can't remember or notice the truth, but she's getting closer. For now they sit peacefully . In the next time on Utena says "There are people like princes, ones who may be princes, and ones I'd like to be princes. But an actual prince? Well..." and I'd love to know who she's thinking of there. Is it just Akio for all three? Probably, but I hope not. Also Anthy says "there are worse things than duels" and I get very sad thinking about Anthy again. This was like half as long as the last one, both because I was making an effort and because I started this on Tuesday, paused a bit before the eyecatch, and then completely lost my analysis brain when finishing it up just now
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Nov 18, 2023 12:11
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