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Please be good  Jerusalem posted:I've always been slightly concerned that the novels wouldn't live up to my memory of them if I re-read them, so a modern adaptation with a high budget is hopefully the next best thing! Same, Shogun was one of the first "big" novels I read as a teenager and I enjoyed it a whole lot, but since then I've never quite dared to give it another try worrying it might not hold up.
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Feb 26, 2024 09:08
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Only one episode in so far but I already love the Spaniard. 
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Feb 28, 2024 12:00
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No Mods No Masters posted:I didn't get to the new ep yet, but It's a bit interesting that people seem about 50/50 between spelling it blackthorn and blackthorne, I guess probably depending on exposure to the novel or not (it's the latter) Clearly it should be Blackþ  Aurubin posted:Why were Japanese sailing ships such dogshit? Just seems odd for an island nation to have such a bad navy. Dogshit is kinda doing them a disservice. The main reason for the Japanese ships being the way they are is that most of their sailing was done in coastal waters, either following the coast or hopping between near-adjacent islands. That context lends itself really well to galleys, which can follow a coastline independently of prevailing wind direction, with the sail being kind of an extra for when the wind happens to align with your direction of travel. These galleys don't need to be particularly big, either, since they would pretty much always be in sight of the coast and could turn into harbor whenever they needed supplies. There was a similar dynamic in the Europe in the Mediterranean sea, where galleys remained predominant for a long time. Europe meanwhile was doing a lot of extremely long-distance seafaring across open oceans, which necessitated bigger, heavier ships with much more sail and the ability to act independently for long stretches of time. Japan's navy just never had much cause to develop in that direction, in part due to geography and in part due to isolationism.
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Mar 6, 2024 11:03
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C-Euro posted:Hang on a sec - I'm pretty sure that in this part of the book, Blackthrone goes back to save Buntaro when he's about to kill himself having been left behind. Am I remembering that correctly? I'm not 100% on my memory of the book either, but I also do seem to recall Buntaro committing seppuku rather than charging into battle again.
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Mar 6, 2024 14:04
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Google Jeb Bush posted:It also does a good job of portraying, in a show that so far doesn't have fantastical murder-heroes, that Buntaro is a fairly superlative warrior. He just shears through the opposition until they can start bringing their numbers to bear. On that note, I also appreciated that the show made a point of showing that a warrior in a full suit or armor has a distinct edge over a bunch of guys in just regular clothes. The unarmoured guys got owned left and right, but only a couple of people in armor got got, and those only through hits to exposed areas like the neck.
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Mar 7, 2024 09:40
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I love how this show takes characters that anywhere else would be just generic one-note side parts and gives them a surprising depth. Buntaro could have just been played as another cruel brute shithead. And he still kinda is that, but he's also more than that. Him backing down from Blackthorne displays a certain degree of principle and self-control (or arguably just plain cunning) that throws an intriguing wrench into things. There's a reason why he's well-regarded by his peers beyond just being good at bows. Also Fuji continues to be great. A great little thing was the way she readied her own weapon when Blackthorne charged into the Toda quarters. She might not like it, but she was still absolutely ready to throw down 
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Mar 19, 2024 19:40
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:Iron was definitely superior, but artillery science is like an actual thing and the british/dutch definitely had an edge. I'm not enough of a history nerd to know whether bronze cannons could be as accurate as the show depicted the iron ones to be, but there's definitely enough of an art to using cannons that being taught how to use them right does significantly improve their accuracy. You see him using a sighting device and stuff in the show. I may be mixing something up here, but I'm pretty sure that bronze was actually the superior cannon material in terms of quality until like the 19th century when they could be made out of high-quality homogenuous steel. Bronze would actually have been tougher than cast iron, meaning you could have much lighter cannon for a given calibre. Bronze was also usually safer: A well-made bronze cannon near the end of its lifespan would start to visibly deform or rupture, indicating that it's high time replace it. An cast iron cannon meanwhile would develop internal fractures until one day it just blows apart right in your face. The main advantage of the cast iron version was that they were way cheaper to produce once you had the technology to make them. Another factor is that previous Japanese cannon were often breech-loaded (much like early medieval European versions), unlike the muzzle-loaded kind that Blackthorne brought along. Breech-loading is quite a bit quicker and more convenient, but the downside is that it can't form a good seal so you have a bunch of gas venting out the breech when firing. That reduces the overall range/power of your shot and also tends to make it quite a bit less consistent from one shot to the next.
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Mar 25, 2024 11:02
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I gotta echo whoever posted last episode about Ochiba having a noticeably different kind of pronunciation going on. Even across the language barrier, it really does come off as quite a bit more dramatic/villainous.
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Mar 27, 2024 09:40
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Goatse James Bond posted:also iirc the book describes ishido as short and ugly whereas this guy is reasonably attractive and doesn't have obvious establishing shots of him being short, but because the casting in this show is amazing he makes up for it by seething in rage that people above him (except ochiba and the heir) have the temerity to exist and people below him have the temerity to not grovel I'd also argue that the whole thing with "the antagonists are ugly goblins while the protagonists are handsome chads" is kind of an outdated convention that would have felt pretty out of place here.
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Mar 28, 2024 09:13
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Personally I quite liked the last episode, even if it was on the slow side. I thought that it worked nicely as a setup/counterpoint shortly before poo poo starts really popping off (this is of course assuming that poo poo really does start popping off by next episode). Until now, both the narrative and much of the cast generally showed a certain degree of detachment from what is going to happen. A mix of a fatalistic "it is what it is" and confidence that Toranaga will eventually pull it off anyway. Toranaga himself seems to be caught up in it as well, just kinda playing out his role because he feels that's what he's supposed to do. It's not until his own son is presented with a death sentence that he seems to partially snap out of it. The episode worked to contrast that from two angles: For one, by emphasizing the very real chance that Toranaga's plan could fail entirely even just from a minor misstep or coincidence. Secondly, by showing the very real human cost of such a failure, or even success. It's set up in the prologue: Some dickhead decides he has to prosecute an unwinnable war because of "fate", and as a result a shitload of people die on a battlefield and a young child gets to be traumatized by having to kill a guy and then awkwardly mutilate his corpse. It's then reinforced by Blackthorne pointing out that every single one of Toranaga's associates is going to die while they're still just playing along. Finally it's capped off by Nagakado dying in the dumbest way for no good reason while (probably) just making everything worse.
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Apr 3, 2024 12:16
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If there is a secret 4D chess Toranaga plot, my guess is that it's about pulling Saeki onto his side after all while using the regent thing as a way to get Ishido to let down his guard. Use the pretext of escorting Toranaga to Osaka to get a Saeki's forces up there without arousing suspicion, wait until the gates open, surprise decapitation attack before the garrison can mobilize, and there you are. Either the whole thing had been prearranged (which would indeed be a bit disappointing), or he does have some hook or plan to try and convince Saeki while they're on route.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:23
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm not an expert but he looks like he's holding it the way you'd hold a European rapier or epee where it's a long stabbing sword and the whole fight is about reach and controlling the point of the sword. I've seen a video where a katana expert is confronted with a rapier and it goes pretty well for the rapier, mostly because it's a longer sword and therefore you can poke the katana guy before he can slice you. But John isn't an expert and he's not holding a rapier. Yeah, that was my thought as well. IIRC that particular stance, with the sword high and directly forwards, as well as the relaxed handshake grip, is something you can find in the Spanish style of rapier fencing. But yeah, it's kind of awkward because you're supposed to wrap your fingers around the crossguard for better control, and a katana doesn't have a crossguard of that style. Overall it struck me as something like "was at one point shown how to do it (or watched it), but hasn't kept up with training at all since then"
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Apr 6, 2024 14:59
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snoremac posted:Buntaro is written and acted well because he is a piece of poo poo as a husband and all around vicious man but his inner turmoil is palpable and I feel sorry for him. Same. I really didn't expect to sympathise with the rear end in a top hat drunken domestic abuser but drat I kinda felt for him there.
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Apr 10, 2024 11:18
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I may well have missed something, but I don't think that Toranaga has necessarily been meticulously planning the longest con for three episodes in a row. Rather, I took it more as him trying to keep his options somewhat open while presenting a respectable facade. When the landslide destroyed most of his army a direct military move was distinctly not in his favour even considering Crimson Sky, so he claims it's his decision not to go there rather than something forced on him by circumstances. Going to Saeki for help could've been a calculated risk that didn't pan out, and once surrounded there was no real way to fight his way out. All that time, his whole "I humbly accept defeat for the good of the realm" really could just have been a way to play for time. With limited options, it's better than approving a suicide attack or just admitting "Guys I dunno what the gently caress to do either". It wasn't until this episode that Nagakado's self-own gave him the room and time to maneuver and launch an actual scheme. And now the facade of a defeated man about to calmly go to his death is actually necessary, because all eyes will be on him while he's in Edo because everyone is going to expect him to pull something.
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Apr 10, 2024 20:16
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snoremac posted:I worry too much in this show that I've missed some hint or line of dialogue that explains the political machination behind what people are doing at a particular time. That part was explained a bit earlier as well: In the court scene, it was made pretty clear that Ishido did not want to let Mariko leave, but at the same time that he also doesn't have any legitimate official reason to prevent her from leaving. Mariko forced the issue by marching on the gate, at which point Ishido decided he'd rather look a bit lovely by stopping her than letting her go. He probably figured he'd be able to muddle through on a technicality after the fact. What he probably hadn't anticipated was Mariko's secondary goal: By first expending her retainers and then trying -and failing- to personally fight her way out, she could prove to everyone that she had done her utmost to follow her duty, but was prevented from doing so by Ishido. This meant that her suicide would then be unarguably Ishido's fault. Ishido likely had not counted on her engineering this situation and threatening suicide to push him into an absolute no-win scenario. As for the guys who died at the gate fight, those were just retainers, nobody cares much about those. Mariko herself however was part of the absolutely highest upper crust of samurai nobility, which she had made a point of reiterating before court. Her death, one way or another, would be a way bigger deal.
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Apr 16, 2024 18:47
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Panzeh posted:Blackthorne using that pistol like it's a glock but i'm down for that. Yeah, the speed and ease at which he reloaded was perhaps a little fudged, but not egregiously so. A pistol like that could reasonably be reloaded in about 20 seconds, so if he's cool under fire it's quite feasible for him to get several shots off. They showed just enough of him messing about with the pistol to convey that it's a bit of a process, but one that he's experienced at. I also appreciated him holding the thing by the barrel during the initial ambush, fully ready to beat a guy's head in with it.
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Apr 16, 2024 21:48
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MeinPanzer posted:Actually, the more that I think about, the less that I understand the whole situation with Ishido, Mariko, and the hostages. Maybe I missed some subtle dialogue along the way or something. It was delicate balance and nobody wanted to be the first to upset it. Everybody knew that they were hostages as much as guests, but everybody also knew that Ishido didn't truly have the clout to stop them all if they all decided at once to leave. Ishido's power is based in legalism and precedent more than raw military might, and trying to imprison everyone by force would just lead to a civil war with him losing in the end. However, nobody wanted to be the first one to actually raise or even force the issue, because that would be painting a huge target on their backs. They might be allowed to leave, but Ishido would still be able to severely gently caress with whoever he considered guilty after the fact. After all, everyone is expecting Toranaga to lose and Ishido to remain in power, so it would seem safer to just sit the whole thing out in Osaka rather than risk anything. But Mariko was able to make that first move, and escalated it to the maximum, because she had nothing to lose. And once she had raised that precedent that it was possible to leave, the balance of power tipped. At that point Ishido had no more legal pretense to even try to keep anybody in, and any attempt to say otherwise would be so obviously tyrannical that the remaining nobles would feel forced to revolt.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:27
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MikeC posted:
It's basically a matter of appearances and legalism: Yes, everybody in court are de facto hostages. But Ishido does have a legal de jure excuse to call and keep them there, and that is important. It's the basic concept of feudalism: Ishido can't keep everybody in line with raw force, he's only in charge with their tacit support. But they only support him as long as the stability by his government is preferable to rolling the dice with a revolt/civil war. An important condition of this support is that Ishido adhere to certain laws and customs, most of which are designed to protect the other lords from arbitrary tyranny. At the time Mariko enters, it's in a bit of a superposition. Ishido is technically acting beyond what's allowed, but it's in a grey area because nobody has forced the issue yet so no law or custom had been obviously broken. Basically, nobody is prevented from leaving as long as nobody tries to leave. If somebody were to be prevented from leaving by force without a valid legal reason, that would be obvious tyranny and the lords would have no choice but to revolt against Ishido just out of simple self-preservation. But the lords don't really want to revolt unless they really have to, so they're kinda letting Ishido get away with it for the moment by not forcing the issue. Any one of the lords could have done what Mariko did, but they all had too much to lose to make that first step.
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Apr 17, 2024 09:38
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grobbo posted:I do still think this is a deliberate choice, and Jarvis is entertainingly and mostly very effectively playing up certain aspects in order to demonstrate how Blackthorne must come across to the rest of the characters, in constant violation of social etiquette: graceless and unable to remain still, blurting out his innermost emotions or leaving them instantly readable upon his shocked or sorrowful face, bellowing unnecessarily loudly or emphatically to make a point (while, say, Mariko can make the same point with a gentle 'So sorry, but...') That reminds me of one of my favourite moments this episode that got kinda overshadowed by the finale: Mariko telling Blackthorne that they should leave, her having a tearful final goodbye with Oshiba, and him just absolutely gracelessly STOMP STOMP STOMPing away.
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Apr 18, 2024 08:39
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Only just got around to catching episode 10 myself, enjoyed it a whole lot. I'll say that Blackthorne's confrontation with Toranaga didn't quite land for me, Blackthorne's insistence on forcing this just didn't seem very well-motivated. That said, having a death-bound Yabu and Toranaga talking shop one last time was a brilliant way of externalising book-Toranaga's internal monologue and worked perfectly.  Jerusalem posted:Also I keep forgetting to ask, but would Blackthorne normally have been allowed near Toranaga with that smaller sword (tanto?) he had? I actually wondered if him being so willing to hand over his sword and pistol to Omi was a mixture of being committed to his suicide if necessary, coming to an understanding about Japanese culture, and also more strategically to put Omi on the back foot so he didn't think to check him for any other weapons? To a degree, this works to show his growing acceptance among the samurai. The smaller sword (this one seems to be a wakizashi rather than the more dagger-sized tanto) is primarily considered a status symbol and is handed off rarely, whereas the longer katana is considered a weapon foremost and thus more acceptable to be temporarily confiscated. Blackthorne being allowed to retain the short sword basically means that his right to wear his status symbol as a hatamoto now outweighs the theoretical risk of an attack.
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Apr 28, 2024 16:24
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counterfeitsaint posted:Inconsistent stuff like this always muddies the waters when a show tries to present a "very different culture with very different values". I mean, he still acted with limited information. Not everyone is Toranaga with the ability to perfectly gauge how everyone will act years down the line. Perhaps he hoped that Buntaro wouldn't be as much of a shitter and could offer Mariko something to live for. Maybe he thought her friendship with Ochiba could help her through. Maybe he had the idea that in the end his act of regicide wouldn't be thought of quite as poorly as it turned out to be. Or maybe he was just a desperate man in an impossible situation who deluded himself into thinking there's a way to safe his daughters life despite what he's about to do. As it happens, the change to Fuji's eventual fate supports this. She works as an example that even in a circumstance considered very shameful, there is an alternative to suicide that is considered acceptable to both society as well as those affected.
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May 1, 2024 10:36
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