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In Star Trek, all of the technology is essentially "magic box you can't see". Or "featureless thing with lights on it". It may not have been a plot critical detail, but, I really liked seeing things in engineering and elsewhere in the ship which looked like well, engineering as we might recognize it today. Of course technology is more advanced 250 years from now, but the engineering bay looked like some sort of heavy duty machinery was actually there, as opposed to every tv show/movie from Star Trek where it is either boxy, or, boxy with lights on it.
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May 17, 2013 01:41
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Yeesh, just got out of it, what a loving misguided trainwreck. Some good action throughout, but the 3rd act reveals/callbacks are such self-evidently awful ideas, I seriously cannot BELIEVE they actually tried to pull that poo poo. Demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of the original films and why they worked, and destroys any good-will the movie had built to that point. Spock screaming out "KHAN!!!" is one of the most embarrassing pieces of fan pandering I've ever seen, and everyone responsible for that moment should feel ashamed.
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May 17, 2013 01:50
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I really liked it, but they should have ended it there, or shortly after. End the movie with Kirk dead. Bring him back with the genesis project in the next one?
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May 17, 2013 01:54
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PeterWeller posted:It's not. He's at its center. And keeping your central protagonist alive is not cowardice, especially in a franchise film with expected sequels. Hell, killing your central protagonist in the first place is a very risky move. The sacrifice is cheapened somewhat by how quickly he is brought back, but it's still a significant sacrifice that resonates with the characters and audience. Yeah, I'm glad they didn't go "new-age Bond villain" with Khan and kill him - because you just know some other grieving father who wants to save his kid is going to thaw Khan out for his blood and things will go ~horribly awry~.
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May 17, 2013 01:58
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bullet3 posted:Spock screaming out "KHAN!!!" is one of the most embarrassing pieces of fan pandering I've ever seen, and everyone responsible for that moment should feel ashamed. I wouldn't be surprised if they (Abrams and the writers) knew exactly how cheesy and fan service-y it was, and did it just because the idea entertained them and it worked within the context of the scene. It's only bad because we've seen it before and recognize it as a big callback.
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May 17, 2013 02:01
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BIG HEADLINE posted:"Blink of an Eye," S6E12. I just watched this and it is unironically good. This is the kind of stuff I want from Trek, and I am surprised that Voyager of all the series delivered on it.
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May 17, 2013 02:10
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I posted this earlier - it seems that almost everyone who's seen the film since has a different reading of it than I do, which seems odd, as I think this explains pretty much everything. Can anyone point out where I might be wrong?Comrade Fakename posted:I think some people are a bit confused about the basic plot of the film: On top of this (I mentioned in a follow-up post) Once Khan meets Kirk on Kronos, he improvises a new plan, knowing that his crew are out of Robocop's control. He intends to use Kirk to get revenge on Robocop and maybe steal his ship or something.
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May 17, 2013 02:27
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WarLocke posted:That scene is kind of ambiguous but I took it as Spock mind-melds with Khan and Khan freaks out because now he is feeling his/Spock's cranium starting to buckle; smart move by Spock to get Khan's hands off of him. I was wondering during that scene if that's what he was doing, but I wasn't sure. Definitely looked like it, though.
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May 17, 2013 02:28
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Comrade Fakename posted:I posted this earlier - it seems that almost everyone who's seen the film since has a different reading of it than I do, which seems odd, as I think this explains pretty much everything. Can anyone point out where I might be wrong? Hang on marcus knew there were bodies in the torpedoes. They were found out. Kirk calls him on this. Dude just had a really stupid plan.
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May 17, 2013 02:40
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Just saw it, and I'm not sure how I feel about Kirk dying. I'm not super spergy about Star Trek usually, but that's kind of treading on hallowed ground, and I don't really think the movie earned it. It feels lazy to just ape one of old Trek's best moments like that, and I think the effect was jarring more than anything else. I don't know if they're making more of these, but if they continue I hope they can just lay old Trek to rest and go where they want to go. I suppose that's what the ending is about though, since this is the start of their five year mission.
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May 17, 2013 02:52
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ShineDog posted:Hang on They didn't find this out until after Khan surrendered.
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May 17, 2013 02:53
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ShineDog posted:Hang on I thought it was fairly obvious that Khan hides his crew in the torpedoes in order to smuggle them out (somehow; he never says, so I guess we just assume he's really smart and had a plan), Admiral Robocop finds out so Khan has to bolt by himself. Khan figures Weller would have killed his crew after this so he bombs Section 31, attacks Starfleet HQ and bugs out because he doesn't have gently caress all left on Earth for him. Admiral Weller sends Kirk, who has the red-eye for Khan now after him, with these 'special torpedoes'. I can't really reconcile this next part because I'm pretty sure Bones or Carol says at one point that the fuel cells were removed to fit the cryotubes, but Kirk is supposed to fire the torpedoes at Khan, killing him and all of his crew while conveniently starting a war with the Klingons (because they'll find the Enterprise conveniently sabotaged in their space) then he swoops in with his new shiny ship and blows the klinks to hell and is a hero just in time for the war he wanted. But of course Kirk doesn't kill Khan or fire the torpedoes so everything goes off the rails and everyone is improvising afterwards.
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May 17, 2013 02:53
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DFu4ever posted:They didn't find this out until after Khan surrendered. kirk didn't, but Marcus knew in advance. This would be why they are shielded, and makes Marcus plan really dumb. ^ yes I know what happened, I just think its a silly rear end plan.
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May 17, 2013 03:02
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Why is Carol Marcus British? Especially with Robocop as her dad? And when were we told about the Admiral's name being Marcus? And why does he have the most fan-servicey collection of ship models then one weird-rear end model ship, in plain view, that turns out to be the super ship? That Scotty, of all people had never seen before? And why does the new "dreadnought" (you know, the three-engined ship from the books) now look like something I drew when I was ten years old? Lol Scotty sabotaged the ship (Star Trek 3) Lol Sulu as captain (Star Trek 6) So many more questions, I think this movie has done so much to unleash a trapped spergy trek nerd inside of me. Also echoing the sentiments of being surprised someone named "Picard" randomly appearing somewhere. The movie had so many callbacks you'd think I'd love it, but it becomes too much that the story just becomes a re-hashed collection of bits, with 9/11.
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May 17, 2013 03:02
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ColonelKlink posted:The movie had so many callbacks you'd think I'd love it, but it becomes too much that the story just becomes a re-hashed collection of bits You know what was perfect and immediately got me thinking "I want to know about that!" ? "last month's Mudd incident"
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May 17, 2013 03:04
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WarLocke posted:You know what was perfect and immediately got me thinking "I want to know about that!" ? Agreed, where did Harry Mudd get the Spindrift?
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May 17, 2013 03:17
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ColonelKlink posted:Lol Sulu as captain (Star Trek 6) I don't think that was a callback so much as something that just made sense during that situation. He already pretty much commanded/independently piloted the ship during the climax of Trek09, where he intervenes during Spock's suicide run at Nero's ship.
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May 17, 2013 03:17
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I don't feel like Kirk dying/being resurrected was particularly "cheapened" because the whole point of that was the reversal of the Kirk/Spock role from the original, willingness of Kirk's sacrifice, and once again showing that Spock is capable of emotion when it comes to Kirk (his friend). The point was never really to trick the audience into believing Kirk would be gone forever. That's also why the Tribble thing and the repeated references to Khan's blood healing properties weren't necessarily lazy writing, they were supposed to be hit-you-over-the-head obvious because that was the intended effect. It isn't by accident that the audience was totally primed for that resurrection, that was pretty much the intended effect. It wasn't very well-executed, but it wasn't all that horrible either. Anyhow, after reading bits of angry text amidst black walls all day in this thread before before seeing the film I was pretty worried, but having actually watched the movie now I can say I'm pretty pleased with it. I was thoroughly entertained by the whole thing. It was definitely an action movie and not an extended Star Trek episode, but that's the nature of the beast. With the exception of Benedict Cumberbatch being the shittiest loving character I have ever seen both in terms of acting and writing, oh my god what the gently caress was with that "look into the camera while explaining my character motivations as a single tear rolls down my cheek" piece of horrible poo poo I can't even be watching this happen the characters all felt like they had good things going for them. I can see where some of the criticism about lazy writing or plot holes or whatever are coming from, but my overall impression was still a good one. I was entertained. The thing had that quality about it, and it was good. e: So gently caress it I liked the movie but I can't say enough bad things about Cumberbatch's role and performance. The guy was bad. loving bad. Everything he did was contrived. The movie would have been better without him in it, just some other arbitrary device driving the plot from point A to point B. I think they literally could not have picked a worse way to get there than "follow Benedict Cumberbatch's character." DFu4ever posted:I wouldn't be surprised if they (Abrams and the writers) knew exactly how cheesy and fan service-y it was, and did it just because the idea entertained them and it worked within the context of the scene. I think at any given moment Abrams is laboring under the impression that there is no such thing as something too cringey and fanservicey, and he is probably not wrong. The audience response to that moment in my theater was overwhelmingly positive. There are tons of casual Trek fans out there and even people with a general cultural awareness of the reference, and it makes them happy to feel included or be "in the know." Even hamfisted callouts tend to be well-received by most people. speng31b fucked around with this message at 03:58 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 03:48
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WarLocke posted:You know what was perfect and immediately got me thinking "I want to know about that!" ? Spoiler warning: http://geek-news.mtv.com/2013/05/16...mics+%231000%29 It's from the prequel comic, and this universe's "Harry Mudd" has a twist.
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May 17, 2013 04:53
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Oh did anyone else see the NX-01 model in Admiral Marcus' office? For some reason I get a huge kick out of Enterprise references in these movies.
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May 17, 2013 04:55
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Medoken posted:I understand what you're saying, but I fundamentally disagree. I think it is far more interesting for an author/director to allow characters to suffer the consequences of their actions without resorting to plot contrivances to save them (nothing would have changed - beside the mini-arc in the beginning - without Khan's superhealing blood). While I'm sure Kirk has learned something from his escapades, the impact is lessened rather extensively when he gets to continue galavanting around the quadrant banging green women and hanging out with Spock and crew. And on a personal level, I feel cheated as an audience member. I bought into Kirk's death hook-line-and-sinker. I felt emotionally manipulated when I realized the screenwriter had given himself a way out of that particular corner of the story. It's the same thing I hated in The Dark Knight Rises with Bruce Wayne getting away at the end. Hollywood has an (understandable) cowardice when it comes to killing off main characters that I do not enjoy. Dude are you serious? Did you miss the whole tribbles thing? Don't player hate, Kirk is Kirk and he can bang all the green women with tails he wants. I really enjoyed the new film. I went into it expecting a fun JJ Adams action trek movie, and I got that and more. I'm planning on seeing it a 2nd time.
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May 17, 2013 04:58
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Also when Kirk dies it will be done by a bridge falling on him.
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May 17, 2013 05:01
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I just got back from it. I feel more mixed about the film than I'd hoped. I definitely miss that certain quasi-psychedelic feel of the first film's visuals, some shots were inexplicably sloppy (the brig scene desperately called for smooth or still camera movement; if the jittering was meant to evoke anything valuable, it failed), Alice Eve's character was kind of baffling, and certain moments of exposition weren't woven in as seamlessly as they ought to have been. That said, several elements of the plot were extremely gratifying. Human cryo-torpedoes is an image that earns its ludicrousness by being visually and conceptually delicious. I appreciated the thread that almost every major interaction boiled down to a matter of lives as currency and leverage. One thing I do wish had been either explored more thoroughly (or excised in favour of an alternate dilemma more relevant to Into Darkness' story) is the opening scene. It feels orphaned from the rest of the film. There's a very direct parallel begging to be made between the respective influences of the Enterprise and the Narada, and Into Darkness just shoves that parallel into the background instead of properly mining it. When we see the natives sketching the Enterprise, it's a direct foreshadowing of how Nero and his hyper-advanced crew have shifted humans on an accelerated course towards Dreadnought-class ships and interplanetary teleportation, and yet the closest we get to talking about that subject is a little babbling from Scotty about the transwarp formula. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 08:43 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 05:05
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Supercar Gautier posted:I just got back from it. I feel more mixed about the film than I'd hoped. I definitely miss that certain quasi-psychedelic feel of the first film's visuals, some shots were inexplicably sloppy (the brig scene desperately called for smooth or still camera movement; if the jittering was mean to evoke anything valuable, it failed), Alice Eve's character was kind of baffling, and certain moments of exposition weren't woven in as seamlessly as they ought to have been. transwarp formula was something from the first film and something that he should have already figured out.
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May 17, 2013 05:08
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bobkatt013 posted:transwarp formula was something from the first film and something that he should have already figured out. I was under the impression that the formula Spock Prime brought Scotty had something to do with the trick Harrison pulled. If not, then yeah I guess that brings us down to no examples!
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May 17, 2013 05:11
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Very nice. As a pretty big fan of the series, I'd previously been really reluctant to like the 2009 Star Trek, as it was kind of a soulless whiz-bang adventure... but a really fun soulless whiz-bang adventure, so I couldn't really hate it. In contrast, I think Into Darkness actually... got it right. If the allegory was heavy handed, it was no more heavy handed than ToS or TNG at least. I'm just really happy that it was there. I think there's an inclination to roll your eyes when you understand something as a cheap ploy or something- like, "Oh god, this is about drone strikes and extrajudicial executions. How 'edgy'  " But gently caress it, it made me happy that they were talking about relevant poo poo. Like Scotty getting pissed about their mission, how vengeful executions and torpedo strikes on alien planets aren't what we're about. I think it was done well. You could see Kirk's perspective. He wasn't being frustratingly dumb. You could see where he was coming from, and maybe even agree with him in the heat of the moment (I think the movie's "heat of the moment" pace actually helped in this respect). It lets you understand not just what is wrong, but how you can be wrong, and what it feels like.I think Admiral Marcus was a really meaningful villain. I've always liked the Section 31 subplot from DS9, and I'm glad that it was pretty well realized in this film. It was pretty clear what it was and what it represented even with the brief description it got. It makes things difficult when the "bad guys" are on your side and helping you as best they can. It makes for an interesting story. I know none of the stuff explored here is revolutionary or even especially insightful, but even a quick glance at stuff like that is something I very much appreciate. That said, a lot of my appreciation was unashamed fanboy glee at references. gently caress it, it may be dumb but whatever, I don't care, it's fun. I honestly really liked the reversal of the radiation chamber scene. It was legitimately touching to see Spock deal with his friend's death like that... and it's probably going to be a minority opinion here, but I though the "KHAAAN" was perfect punctuation to that scene. Just as you've gotten all the emotion out of Kirk's death that you can, and right as you're beginning to wonder what the movie's going to do next, you get the most absurdly hilarious callback. I could not stop laughing. And, honestly, I think it's legit. It's funny because it's sincere- just like the original. I mean, I laughed yesterday when (by complete coincidence) I watched Wrath of Khan and it happened. I guess maybe I was never taking the movie seriously enough that I was upset at being taken out of it like that or something. In any case, I thoroughly enjoyed the ride all the way through. One of my favorite parts though was the closing narration. Specifically the last bit. It's the "5 year mission" narration from the original series, but... with one word changed to match later narrations. "To boldly go where no one has gone before" instead of "no man". That made me feel irrationally good. With so many references and callbacks, so much worshipful attention to the past... it kind of means something when something so iconic is changed with so little fanfare.
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May 17, 2013 05:13
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^^ They changed it because the old version is sexist. Supercar Gautier posted:I was under the impression that the formula Spock Prime brought Scotty had something to do with the trick Harrison pulled. If not, then yeah I guess that brings us down to no examples! It was. Section 31 gave it to Harrison, and Spock Prime thought it was okay to give to Scotty since it was already his.
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May 17, 2013 05:13
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bobkatt013 posted:^^ They changed it because the old version is sexist.
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May 17, 2013 05:30
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It's been 9 hours since I saw it and I'm still giddy.
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May 17, 2013 05:34
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Joe Don Baker posted:Oh did anyone else see the NX-01 model in Admiral Marcus' office? For some reason I get a huge kick out of Enterprise references in these movies. Yeah, except that kind of stuck in my craw as well. Kirk evidently didn't know the big-dick Battleship existed, but THERE WAS A loving MODEL OF IT ON ADMIRAL MARCUS' DESK AT THE BEGINNING. I was expecting him to say something like 'holy poo poo, Sir, when can I get one of *these*?" They painstakingly showed all of those models in a row, and didn't spare the big-dick battleship and it's all a big surprise. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 06:08 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 06:05
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Yeah, except that kind of stuck in my craw as well. Kirk evidently didn't know the big-dick Battleship existed, but THERE WAS A loving MODEL OF IT ON ADMIRAL MARCUS' DESK AT THE BEGINNING. I was expecting him to say something like 'holy poo poo, Sir, when can I get one of *these*?" I dunno, it isn't that ridiculous. I have family members who were involved in aircraft design and it's not uncommon to have posters/mockups/models of the most ridiculous looking concept poo poo that never actually makes it off the drawing board, if even that far. Could just be ridiculous concept poo poo, definitely not enough to arouse suspicion that the lead admiral of Star Fleet is secretly building a giant fuckoff Klingon-killing warship.
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May 17, 2013 06:10
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I wonder how many tens of thousands died when the bigass starship crashed into SF. It knocked down like a dozen skyscrapers. That seemed weirdly glossed over, while Pike got a fancy rear end funeral.
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May 17, 2013 06:34
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WarLocke posted:It's a really quick scene but the fingers on cheek type position looked right to be a mind-meld to me. drat, I thought that was a weirdly positioned Vulcan nerve pinch. That's how Spock got out of the first head crush, after all! v  v
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May 17, 2013 07:03
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So it's not even clear to me why Khan needed to be in this movie, and why he had to spend so much time as an ally of Kirk + Co. STID would have been a lot stronger if they'd focused more on Peter Weller's villain. And then of course Khan is whitewashed to an absurd degree. I mean, Benedict Cumberbatch might be the whitest dude alive. Anyways, so I thought it was a pretty lovely movie. Felt like they had a handful of scenes they really wanted to show and then just crammed whatever in between to get from A to B to C to D.
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May 17, 2013 07:20
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Great movie. It was neat to see the NX-01 on the big screen, even if it was just a model on a guy's desk. The old Star Trek Admiral-Gone-Mad cliche was a nice touch and I actually didn't see that one coming. I had hoped they weren't going to go with the Harrison=Khan bit but I think they pulled it off. I had even forgotten about the whole Khan's blood->Tribble thing so I was briefly worried that they might actually kill Kirk off. It really seemed like they were setting up for 1 or more sequels with Khan & Co returning at some point. They also seemed to be heavily foreshadowing a Federation/Klingon war. Given the history between Klingons and augmented humans that was established in that Enterprise 2 parter (with Section 31) it'd be cool if they ran with that plot line in the next movie with the Klingons trying to steal Khan or something to fix their foreheads/resume what they started in the 22nd century. The amount of attention Carol Marcus got in this movie suggests she'll be back in some way too. If Kirk knocks her up between Into Darkness and the next film it would be really easy for them to have Klingons kill his son again. If they're not doing that then I think they want Carol on the ship because they want another named/regular woman on the Enterprise and she'll be a main character for the rest of these films.
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May 17, 2013 07:22
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mr. unhsib posted:So it's not even clear to me why Khan needed to be in this movie, and why he had to spend so much time as an ally of Kirk + Co. STID would have been a lot stronger if they'd focused more on Peter Weller's villain. But if Khan hadn't been in the movie, then what reason would Robocop have had to be a villain?
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May 17, 2013 07:26
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His motivation would be all about triggering a war with the Klingons, they could've had Cumberbatch's character just be some mid-tier henchman that gets taken out at the mid-point, revealing the admiral as the true villain of the movie. That would fit thematically because the allegory of the movie is all about the abuse of military power in the face of a terror attack. There was zero reason to have khan in this movie, he's crowbarred in purely for fan service, and is totally wasted.
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May 17, 2013 07:35
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:But if Khan hadn't been in the movie, then what reason would Robocop have had to be a villain? Because he still believes war is coming between the Federation and the Klingons, and would like to get the jump. Kirk & company uncovering a false flag operation would have worked just as well. Not saying it would be a great plot but it'd be better than what we got.
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May 17, 2013 07:36
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Yeah, true. Khan just seems like a more interesting catalyst to me.
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May 17, 2013 07:37
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Yeah, true. Khan just seems like a more interesting catalyst to me. I dunno, I feel like it would have been hard for them to find a less interesting catalyst. The movie was fun but the fact that it was Khan driving it from point A to point B felt tertiary at best. Could have just about any generic antagonist. They didn't make use of the character's specific traits much at all, Robocop was the only bad guy in this movie that couldn't have been easily replaced by [insert villain here]. The only really Khan-ish trait they used was superstrength, and that didn't play out much differently than it did in the first movie with Romulans being superstrong aliens and beating the poo poo out of Kirk. Honestly, my favorite part of Cumberbatch's character in the whole thing was watching him get the crap kicked out of him towards the end because he was just so goddamn flat that it felt like the least he could do for the audience is take a beating as punishment for making us watch his performance. speng31b fucked around with this message at 07:47 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 07:41
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