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Charliegrs posted:Yeah I was waiting for someone to say it. I guess if I walked into a crazy mob of hungry people holding a bunch of loaves of bread and there was zero police presence should I really be surprised when all my bread gets stolen right out of my hands? And was I absolutely crazy for walking into that mob of hungry people? Of course I was. People don't need rape to live so take that pile of poo poo analogy back to the drawing board
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Jul 2, 2013 05:41
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I'm just going to say what everyone is dancing around: the treatment of women in Egypt and in other Middle Eastern countries is pretty much directly religion related. When everyone is taught from an early age that women are second class citizens, it's unsurprising that women get treated like poo poo. After all, they arn't REALLY people.
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Jul 2, 2013 05:45
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Jul 2, 2013 06:08
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Stop breaking the thread you dicks. Morsi is calling the Army's bluff on their 48 hour ultimatum.quote:Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi has rejected the army's 48-hour ultimatum to resolve the country's deadly crisis, saying it will only sow confusion.
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Jul 2, 2013 06:31
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shrike82 posted:Has anyone attempted to explain why rape is so prevalent in the middle east? Rape is prevalent in most places, and I couldn't say whether the Middle East is exceptionally bad in that respect. The reported rates for most crimes, including sexual offenses, tend to be very low in Middle Eastern countries (you can check the UNODC). Egypt actually has the lowest reported rate of sexual assault in the entire world with something like 0.1 per 100,000 (as compared to the US reported rape which I think is closer to 30 per 100k or something). This is undoubtedly an illusion created by under-reporting and mis-categorization, probably combined with a deliberate effort by the authorities to discourage reporting and massage the statistics. Especially considering the well-known toxicity of the Cairo street towards women, who I'm told can expect to be repeatedly propositioned and/or menaced sexually any time they leave their homes. Subjectively I think a lot of people would assume that the real rates in Egypt and the Middle East are probably above the world average, even in "normal" times, and are even higher now with all the upheaval and violence. I don't know if that assumption can be grounded in data, however, because the real figures are unknown. Speculatively the conditions under which many women live, kept close to home and under the supervision of male relatives, would probably tend to make them much more vulnerable to being victimized by those same male relatives. Most rapes are committed by people close to the victim. Spousal rape, for example, isn't recognized as an offense in most of the Middle East. There are also powerful disincentives to women reporting the crime of rape regardless of the perpetrator. Increased political activity, awareness, and resulting self-confidence has led women to report more of what is going on. So we're more aware of it now. I'm sure there's also more going on. Rape and sexual violence are used to punish women for being "out of place" or otherwise transgressing gender boundaries; victim-blaming afterwards reinforces the message. The rapes in Tahrir Square are to punish and make an example of women who are appearing in a public space and trying to be political actors. Additionally, targeting foreign women like the journalists who have been victimized serve additional xenophobic purposes of punishing foreigners for interfering in Egypt, discouraging them from doing so in the future, and as a way to kind of emasculate the West by harming "their" women. More generally the point is to drive women from the public space and to deny them a role in the political changes that are going on in Egypt.
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Jul 2, 2013 06:39
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-Troika- posted:I'm just going to say what everyone is dancing around: the treatment of women in Egypt and in other Middle Eastern countries is pretty much directly religion related. When everyone is taught from an early age that women are second class citizens, it's unsurprising that women get treated like poo poo. After all, they arn't REALLY people. Yes. But it's not how you imagine. A bunch of veiled kowtowing to some singular male figure. No. Women have different kinds of power in the Middle East and it is more of a subtle influence. They influence over their children directly, and their in laws. Its defintely more of a matriarchy actually. It's technically not about women being second class, it's about them treated with kid gloves since they are so elevated . If they move from they're appointed place, which is to be protected and shielded, then they are moving from their appointed place and far from male protection and deemed a free-for-all. Therefor, anything that happens to them is something they asked for. I don't agree with this line of thinking in any way. But I also think you have to know show a different group of people think, and not simply look at the end result to back up your own prejudices. These subtleties are hugely important to them. You also have to consider the middle class and upper middle class who have been proverbially screwed for a long time, since the days of Nasser. I can assure you those people are not the ones who have women being told what to do. Familiarize yourself with some movies and artwork from Egypt inte past twenty or so years...or longer. Women from that class are not second class citizens. They are leading the protests for women's treatments and are right there in the thick of things. And they don't want to be veiled, and they consider it an insult to how they were brought up...it only encourages bad treatment and they do not see it in any positive light. All of my friends in Cairo (and I was born there) are vehemently opposed to it, and do not want thiskind of treatment, no matter how 'elevated' it makes them. And yes, it's positively murder to go out to protests as a young woman , not aware of you demographic, or not caring of it. Really. You can't be applying western standards to things right now. You just can't. I'm not saying its right but it's the cold hard truth right there. They should not BE there due to the stupid culture. Let the young female journalists do their work who are from Egypt. They know it better anyway. Let them pave the way for other female journalists from all over the world. It's for them to do, they know how to handle the jackasses and even when they can't they are still given credit. Apologies for spelling , as the ipad is a really loving fickle thing MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 06:53
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Mainstream western news is starting to paint the freedom fighters as muslim extremists: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=749_1372733092 Citing among other things, Islamic laws restricting women, the persecution of minorities, and attacks on Christians and Catholics. So the western governments supporting arab spring traded organised muslim governments for anarchic "pro-democracy" rebels? If the rebels can stabilize the region, it might be probable that the situation could bite the west in the arse when the muslims turn their attention back to Israel.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:20
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That's a stupid article. The "rebels" as a whole aren't like that; there are groups fighting against Assad who are radical Muslims and terrorists. Trying to conflate the movement with a (newer, foreign) subset of the movement is dishonest, especially when you try to wrap it in an "anti-imperialist" narrative like I think they're doing.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:22
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shrike82 posted:Has anyone attempted to explain why rape is so prevalent in the middle east? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_Day_Parade_attacks It can happen in a NYC celebration in front of full view of their police force, don't fool yourself into thinking you're better than a "3rd world shithole" just because you live somewhere else.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:28
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We now break from a depressing conversation on rape to bring you this stunning photo from Alexandria, Egypt. 
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Jul 2, 2013 07:33
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EvanSchenck posted:Rape is prevalent in most places, and I couldn't say whether the Middle East is exceptionally bad in that respect. The reported rates for most crimes, including sexual offenses, tend to be very low in Middle Eastern countries (you can check the UNODC). Egypt actually has the lowest reported rate of sexual assault in the entire world with something like 0.1 per 100,000 (as compared to the US reported rape which I think is closer to 30 per 100k or something). This is undoubtedly an illusion created by under-reporting and mis-categorization, probably combined with a deliberate effort by the authorities to discourage reporting and massage the statistics. Especially considering the well-known toxicity of the Cairo street towards women, who I'm told can expect to be repeatedly propositioned and/or menaced sexually any time they leave their homes. It's virtually impossible to gain any insights on the prevalence of rape in a country from statistics, as rape is the one crime where reporting it to the authorities varies so widely that you can't possibly come to any conclusions from looking at the known data.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:34
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EvanSchenck posted:Egypt actually has the lowest reported rate of sexual assault in the entire world with something like 0.1 per 100,000 (as compared to the US reported rape which I think is closer to 30 per 100k or something). This is undoubtedly an illusion created by under-reporting and mis-categorization, That sounds like a sign women are terrified to speak up for fear of being hurt, shamed or raped again. Anonymous self-reporting in surveys is probably the only way to do any kind of meaningful comparison.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:36
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suboptimal posted:We now break from a depressing conversation on rape to bring you this stunning photo from Alexandria, Egypt. Also, symbolic, as the Egyptian Apache helicopter hovering like a guardian angel over the crowd.
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Jul 2, 2013 07:47
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quote:ABU DHABI // Sixty-eight of the 94 Emiratis on trial for sedition have been found guilty and sentenced to jail terms of between three and 15 years. Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/uae-sedition-trial-68-guilty-26-cleared-as-all-accused-women-walk-free-from-court#ixzz2XsrD1mWn
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Jul 2, 2013 11:44
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OwlBot 2000 posted:That sounds like a sign women are terrified to speak up for fear of being hurt, shamed or raped again. Anonymous self-reporting in surveys is probably the only way to do any kind of meaningful comparison. Or simply that the stigma of being raped is so great that a woman would never go to the police, since if word got out it could greatly damage her future prospects and her reputation. Awful as that sounds.
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Jul 2, 2013 13:54
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The spokesmen for the Egyptian Presidency and Cabinet have apparently resigned, I don't know how significant that is. (Probably not very)
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Jul 2, 2013 13:57
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Following this entire thing in Egypt is just surreal. You've got protests that happened last year to oust a terrible leader, replaced by The Smiler (apparently), and now the Army is basically acting like a local version of the UN. Good lord. I really hope the Army can be trusted.
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Jul 2, 2013 14:46
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-Troika- posted:I'm just going to say what everyone is dancing around: the treatment of women in Egypt and in other Middle Eastern countries is pretty much directly religion related. When everyone is taught from an early age that women are second class citizens, it's unsurprising that women get treated like poo poo. After all, they arn't REALLY people. It's also related to culture more generally, including tribal customs (which is why 'honor' killings are especially prevalent in Kurdistan, Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan), but of course that's very hard to disentangle from religion, which itself is basically culture with a spiritual basis. I'm just saying that there are areas in the muslim world where things are better in this regard. But yeah, I'm not very optimistic either, and my views on Islam have definitely become more negative over the past few years.
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Jul 2, 2013 14:53
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Phlegmish posted:It's also related to culture more generally, including tribal customs (which is why 'honor' killings are especially prevalent in Kurdistan, Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan), but of course that's very hard to disentangle from religion, which itself is basically culture with a spiritual basis. I'm just saying that there are areas in the muslim world where things are better in this regard. But yeah, I'm not very optimistic either, and my views on Islam have definitely become more negative over the past few years. Not to mention that India has horrible treatment of women and a much smaller proportion of Muslims to other religions.
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Jul 2, 2013 14:57
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SquadronROE posted:Following this entire thing in Egypt is just surreal. You've got protests that happened last year to oust a terrible leader, replaced by The Smiler (apparently), and now the Army is basically acting like a local version of the UN. Protesting the army to get Morsi in. Protesting Morsi to get the army in.
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Jul 2, 2013 15:00
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EvanSchenck posted:I'm sure there's also more going on. Rape and sexual violence are used to punish women for being "out of place" or otherwise transgressing gender boundaries; victim-blaming afterwards reinforces the message. The rapes in Tahrir Square are to punish and make an example of women who are appearing in a public space and trying to be political actors. Additionally, targeting foreign women like the journalists who have been victimized serve additional xenophobic purposes of punishing foreigners for interfering in Egypt, discouraging them from doing so in the future, and as a way to kind of emasculate the West by harming "their" women. All of this certainly plays a role, but the basic reality seems to me that the men who commit these acts just have poor impulse control, lack basic empathy and know that they can get away with it. Everything else is mostly just an a-posteriori excuse. People were reporting on the prevalence of sexual harassment in Egypt before the revolution, and much of it involved women wearing the hijab who weren't really 'transgressing' any norms other than leaving their homes. THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Not to mention that India has horrible treatment of women and a much smaller proportion of Muslims to other religions. I admit that the extent of rape culture in India surprised me when I read all the reports about it. It got me thinking that, at this point, a lot of Westerners do have something of an ingrained tendency to blame everything on Islam as if this has a separate existence as a clearly delineated 'cause' of everything that goes wrong in the muslim world. On the other hand, at least in India you didn't have people in positions of authority explicitly justifying rape the way some sheikhs and mullahs did. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 15:00
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AFP is reporting that the leader of the Egyptian MB is calling on "martyrdom" to stop a coup. Is this as worrisome as it sounds?
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Jul 2, 2013 15:47
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-Troika- posted:I'm just going to say what everyone is dancing around: the treatment of women in Egypt and in other Middle Eastern countries is pretty much directly religion related. When everyone is taught from an early age that women are second class citizens, it's unsurprising that women get treated like poo poo. After all, they arn't REALLY people. Either you mean "the treatment of Women is due to Islam specifically" (which is false, things like FGM cross into Christianity) or you mean "the presence of any religion causes people to treat women like poo poo" which is also provably false (see: Richard Dawkins and the elevator adventure).
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Jul 2, 2013 15:59
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computer parts posted:Either you mean "the treatment of Women is due to Islam specifically" (which is false, things like FGM cross into Christianity) or you mean "the presence of any religion causes people to treat women like poo poo" which is also provably false (see: Richard Dawkins and the elevator adventure). I'm totally with you on the first, and I even think that people are really quick to blame cultural problems in general on religion (Islam specifically or all religions generally) even when it doesn't fit, but pointing to an atheist misogynist "disproves" the influence of religious teachings on treatment of women in the same way that a skinny heart attack victim "disproves" the influence of obesity on heart disease. Even if it was true it would be a bad argument.
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Jul 2, 2013 16:17
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Killer robot posted:I'm totally with you on the first, and I even think that people are really quick to blame cultural problems in general on religion (Islam specifically or all religions generally) even when it doesn't fit, but pointing to an atheist misogynist "disproves" the influence of religious teachings on treatment of women in the same way that a skinny heart attack victim "disproves" the influence of obesity on heart disease. Even if it was true it would be a bad argument. Atheists have been shown to adopt the cultural quirks of the region they came out of (eg, Stalin sending the Jews to the ends of Russia) so it's not a far stretch to think that if a society is misogynistic now it would be if everyone suddenly turned Atheist.
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Jul 2, 2013 16:38
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computer parts posted:Atheists have been shown to adopt the cultural quirks of the region they came out of (eg, Stalin sending the Jews to the ends of Russia) so it's not a far stretch to think that if a society is misogynistic now it would be if everyone suddenly turned Atheist. "If everyone suddenly turned Atheist" is such a ridiculous proposition that it's impossible to debate about that. I think the better question is whether a culture based on a religion that explicitly and repeatedly states that women are less worthy than men would be more or less misogynistic than a culture not based on any religion at all, and I think the answer there is pretty clear. Even if there won't be such a culture as the latter for generations, it's easier and more realistic to think about than everyone ~suddenly~ realizing that God is a lie.
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Jul 2, 2013 16:47
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Muscle Tracer posted:"If everyone suddenly turned Atheist" is such a ridiculous proposition that it's impossible to debate about that. I think the better question is whether a culture based on a religion that explicitly and repeatedly states that women are less worthy than men would be more or less misogynistic than a culture not based on any religion at all, and I think the answer there is pretty clear A culture which is not based on the idea that women are less worthy than men exists as much in the real world as a culture which one day stopped believing in God. VVV Both are about equally likely. computer parts fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 16:58
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computer parts posted:A culture which is not based on the idea that women are less worthy than men exists as much in the real world as a culture which one day stopped believing in God. Yes, it's called a "hypothetical example," but one of them is something actually possible and the other is not at all. I just realized that this is the middle east thread so that's the end of this wonderful rape discussion for me!
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Jul 2, 2013 17:26
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Apparently some more Christians have had their heads lopped off from our allies in Syria.
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Jul 2, 2013 18:38
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-Troika- posted:I'm just going to say what everyone is dancing around: the treatment of women in Egypt and in other Middle Eastern countries is pretty much directly religion related. When everyone is taught from an early age that women are second class citizens, it's unsurprising that women get treated like poo poo. After all, they arn't REALLY people. Yeah this isn't a youtube comments section; don't spout horrible bigoted poo poo if you can't support it with evidence. There are some serious theories explaining why the middle east is more patriarchal than other regions. They don't have anything to do with Islam though. quote:The production of oil has a harmful effect on the economic and political status of women. http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/bwep/colloquium/papers/Ross2006.pdf Sorry that this is a complex multi-dimensional explanation of phenomena that doesn't even attempt to account for 100% of differences, it doesn't even offer anyone to hate, but I'm sure your little bigot soul can find another outlet for its frustration.
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Jul 2, 2013 19:48
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Huffpo reporting that Morsi has rebuffed the military's deadline. This guy is finished. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/02/egypt-mohammed-morsi-ultimatum_n_3532051.html
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Jul 2, 2013 20:00
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Huffpo reporting that Morsi has rebuffed the military's deadline. I imagine from a credibility point of view they wouldn't make idle threats?
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Jul 2, 2013 20:01
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Apparently some more Christians have had their heads lopped off from our allies in Syria. Are you referring to the decapitations that were mis-reported as being a priest, as detailed here?
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Jul 2, 2013 20:06
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Squalid posted:Sorry that this is a complex multi-dimensional explanation of phenomena that doesn't even attempt to account for 100% of differences, It could possibly be problems in Islam might be part of this multi-dimensional problem. It's not like they're the only religion that has serious problems when it comes to women, its just their conservatives currently seem to hold a disproportionate amount of clout. We all try to dance around it, but really trying to pretend Islam at least when practiced in a conservative nature isn't part of the problem is like trying to pretend conservative Christianity in the US isn't part of the problem on attacks against women's rights here. etalian posted:I imagine from a credibility point of view they wouldn't make idle threats? I would imagine so, especially given the fact at this moment I think the army has more credibility than Morsi.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:09
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Brown Moses posted:Are you referring to the decapitations that were mis-reported as being a priest, as detailed here? Yup. That's it. Thanks.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:10
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It's a good example of the press taking 2 + 2 and making 5, then no-one else checking the math. Either way it's a terrible thing for both events to have happened, but it's pretty indicative of the quality of reporting on Syria sometimes.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:16
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Al Jazeera is reporting the army says it plans to suspend the constitution, dissolve parliament and call for fresh elections if the situation isn't resolved(spoiler: it won't be). Tomorrow should be interesting. On a note of a place that hasn't been spoke of in a while, Mali plans to hold elections this month, hopefully it will go decently smoothly. http://www.voanews.com/content/mali-to-proceed-with-july-28-election/1693507.html
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Jul 2, 2013 20:26
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Brown Moses posted:It's a good example of the press taking 2 + 2 and making 5, then no-one else checking the math. Either way it's a terrible thing for both events to have happened, but it's pretty indicative of the quality of reporting on Syria sometimes. It's especially bad with how complicated the truth actually can be at times. The video of Austin Tice that was released by "rebels" comes to mind. With how much of a PR war this to portray the other side as worse, you just never know what you can take at face value, and what is propaganda.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:27
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Here's a piece on how social media is being used to track the use of cluster munitions in Syria, Social media, satellite forensics chart damage from Syrian cluster bombs. Storyful has written a piece about something it's doing to examine videos coming through social meda, Experimenting with open journalism Volkerball posted:It's especially bad with how complicated the truth actually can be at times. The video of Austin Tice that was released by "rebels" comes to mind. With how much of a PR war this to portray the other side as worse, you just never know what you can take at face value, and what is propaganda. And the frustrating thing about this story is it's been misreported in some major titles, so that'll become an accepted fact by a lot of people. It's lovely reporting making the situation even more confusing. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 20:27
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Amused to Death posted:It could possibly be problems in Islam might be part of this multi-dimensional problem. It's not like they're the only religion that has serious problems when it comes to women, its just their conservatives currently seem to hold a disproportionate amount of clout. We all try to dance around it, but really trying to pretend Islam at least when practiced in a conservative nature isn't part of the problem is like trying to pretend conservative Christianity in the US isn't part of the problem on attacks against women's rights here. Fine. Cool. I'll believe it. Just show me the evidence. Something. Anything. just stop posting your horrible common sense bullshit. All I hear right now is opinions, assumptions and unsupported assertions. Don't have any? Maybe you should reevaluate what you believe. I mean there are plenty of Imams floating around who advocate terrible attitudes towards women but there are also plenty of christian preachers doing the same. Without serious cross cultural studies of muslim communities around the world I just don't believe you can make any strong claims regarding specifically Islamic attitudes towards women. I mean Albania is overwhelmingly Muslim but that hasn't stopped Albanians from permitting the existence of a traditional class of transexuals. The overwhelming focus on arab society in any discussion of Islam doesn't help.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:45
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