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Jedit posted:Is it just me, or is it no longer possible to get a Science victory without a deadlock in the Putin It In Mah rear end posted:One of the things I like about BNW is it seems like you need to do more to pro-actively block victory by the other players compared with G&K. Culture to counter tourism, harder to ignore City States. Yeah I agree, all the other victory types can be "sabotaged" in some way, but the science victory is a pretty safe seat, with the penalty being that it takes so much longer to achieve (so you have to faff about blocking all the other victories). I think that's a pretty good system.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:25
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The votes in Congress should cluster more. Now everone just votes for themselves and to get any more votes, you need to buy them. I think the wealer civs should vote for someone else, knowing that they themselves will not win anyway. Or perhaps use some "assign three favorites" type of voting.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:26
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Yeah it seems like science is basically designed to be an ultimate tiebreaker.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:29
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Jastiger posted:Strange. I've had my missionary parked next to a barbarian encampment and unit for 3 turns now and nothing. They aren't attacking, but they aren't being converted either. I should note that I'm NOT the founder of the religion, only that it spread to me. Do I not get the reformation belief bonus? Oooh, that's it. The tooltip for the reformation belief social policy specifically says you need to have founded your own religion.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:30
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:One of the things I like about BNW is it seems like you need to do more to pro-actively block victory by the other players compared with G&K. Culture to counter tourism, harder to ignore City States. Probably the one you can do the least about now though is the space race since if they're on the other side of the world you can't prevent it. But yeah you gotta make sure you don't let someone run away with the lion's share of city states. That isn't good, it's terrible. Not only does it neuter Science victories, it's even more pointless to have the end game military units than it was before. You can be running away with the game and lose because you're doing well. I've never turned off a victory condition before, but I'll be turning off Diplomatic Victory until they find a way to balance it.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:31
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Jedit posted:That isn't good, it's terrible. Not only does it neuter Science victories, it's even more pointless to have the end game military units than it was before. You can be running away with the game and lose because you're doing well. I've never turned off a victory condition before, but I'll be turning off Diplomatic Victory until they find a way to balance it. Or... you could lock up enough city-states to at least push a victory back for two or three voting cycles, declare war with the possible diplo winner (to lock those CSes out), and use that bought time (using the high tech weaponry that's "pointless") to finish your tech tree.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:34
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One thing I just noticed with my Venice game is that you can't pick an ideology until you get to Modern age. Is there a way around this? I'm ahead in tech, but I don't have 3 cities to build factories in, only Venice and puppets. Is this an intentional set back? Edit: NM Speedball answered it, thanks!
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Jul 30, 2013 17:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah it seems like science is basically designed to be an ultimate tiebreaker. Well no... that's the time victory :-P
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Jul 30, 2013 17:34
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Jastiger posted:One thing I just noticed with my Venice game is that you can't pick an ideology until you get to Modern age. Is there a way around this? I'm ahead in tech, but I don't have 3 cities to build factories in, only Venice and puppets. You can purchase the factories in puppets. Buying them counts as "building" them.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:35
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Time victories are not victories at all 
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Jul 30, 2013 17:35
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Kyrosiris posted:You can purchase the factories in puppets. Buying them counts as "building" them. I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I have a factory in all 4 of my city states and Venice and I have no option to choose an ideology.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:36
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You can buy factories in your puppets. It should be only one factory needed though. I have not had a Venice game last that long though, so it's a guess. Once you get to the Renaissance, your GPT explodes.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:36
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Vahakyla posted:The votes in Congress should cluster more. Now everone just votes for themselves and to get any more votes, you need to buy them. If anything it's pretty dumb that you can buy other civs' votes, you're paying them to lose the game and ultimately everyone should aim to not lose the game. I'd love it if AI civs were more proactive about blocking diplo victories. The two civs with the most votes get an extra permanent delegate each so it's not like it'd stall things out forever, and if it does nobody tried hard enough. Jedit posted:That isn't good, it's terrible. Not only does it neuter Science victories, it's even more pointless to have the end game military units than it was before. You can be running away with the game and lose because you're doing well. I've never turned off a victory condition before, but I'll be turning off Diplomatic Victory until they find a way to balance it. Being ahead on science is already a massive advantage as it is and there's very few ways to deal with a proper science runaway. Having to pay a bit of attention to politics and city-states so you don't accidentally hand the victory to somebody else is hardly a problem.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:38
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Choray posted:Being ahead on science is already a massive advantage as it is and there's very few ways to deal with a proper science runaway. Having to pay a bit of attention to politics and city-states so you don't accidentally hand the victory to somebody else is hardly a problem. I would be fine with diplomatic victory if the case was actually about diplomacy, its not and is all about who has the most gold to buy city states at the last turn before the votes.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:41
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BadLlama posted:I would be fine with diplomatic victory if the case was actually about diplomacy, its not and is all about who has the most gold to buy city states at the last turn before the votes. Corner the global energy markets: 
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Jul 30, 2013 17:48
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Choray posted:If anything it's pretty dumb that you can buy other civs' votes, you're paying them to lose the game and ultimately everyone should aim to not lose the game. I don't think you can buy their votes for world leader in practice. In theory maybe but there's nothing you could offer them that would cause them to agree. I could be wrong though. In my one game so far Greece was the big bully for pretty much the entire game and I toyed with trying to vote for someone else and paying a 3rd Civ to vote for them as well in order to unseat them from the Host position, but then I didn't realize there's no Host election for the information age. Geokinesis posted:Corner the global energy markets: As much as I love this game, that victory never made sense to me. "We have so much energy that now you...can't make your own energy." What?
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Jul 30, 2013 17:51
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Speedball posted:Oooh, that's it. The tooltip for the reformation belief social policy specifically says you need to have founded your own religion. I'm almost completely certain I was getting tourism from pagodas and whatnot after another religion was spread to my capital. I did found a religion but I didn't go piety to get a reformation belief.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:53
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BadLlama posted:I would be fine with diplomatic victory if the case was actually about diplomacy, its not and is all about who has the most gold to buy city states at the last turn before the votes. Agreed, the current system is not satisfying. I think that influence over city states should be slowly earned over time, that opponent AIs make an effort to dispute control over them, and that a diplomatic victory require at least 2/3 of the vote. Right now it feels like there's hardly a contest.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:54
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Just be allies with 40% of the city states and wipe out all the others until your 40% becomes 75% or the remaining city states. In a way this is how Venice can work against its self. You need to make sure to only use MoV to convert hostile city states or you are lowering your own influence just for 1 extra city.
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Jul 30, 2013 17:58
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Most upset with the world when I win a Diplo Victory two turns before I win the Culture Victory I really wanted. 
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Jul 30, 2013 17:59
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Yeah the CS game would be a lot harder if they could ally amongst themselves and cared if you were a warmonger.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:00
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I think the influence value of gold gifts probably needs to decay a good bit faster because it is pretty easy to buy a diplomatic victory but I can't complain too much since that's the only way I see to stop an AI going for a diplo victory.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:02
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:As much as I love this game, that victory never made sense to me. "We have so much energy that now you...can't make your own energy." What? It's cornering the energy market after converting the planet into an energy economy. It'd be the equivalent of owning all the major resources in the world and controlling every major industry. There's no real way to fight it without becoming an isolationist like North Korea. Which reminds me that, once again, Alpha Centauri has the solution for Civilization. Its diplomatic victory conditions encourage actual politicking (because you are generating your votes from population you control, not neutral city states), and civs are also capable of defying the will of the Supreme Leader and pursuing a dark horse conquest victory. http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Victory_(Diplomatic)
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Jul 30, 2013 18:03
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Yeah tracking the nationality/faction of your population was a cool thing. I don't know why they got rid of it. Maybe it made all the genocide you do too concrete.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:05
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I'd just like to note that the main reason that Alex is particularly threatening at high difficulties is that he leverages his huge AI advantage to buy up city states and thus indirectly pursue a diplomatic victory. The fact that he has any kind of "game plan" even if it's indirect makes him scary and goes to demonstrate why diplomatic victory sucks right now. Along with the fact that it makes it feel like the game is all about accruing advantages just so you can have the most gold reserves at one arbitrary turn in the mid-late game.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:05
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euphronius posted:Yeah the CS game would be a lot harder if they could ally amongst themselves and cared if you were a warmonger. If you conquer enough of them the city-states will all perma-war against you. Or at least hate you. It's been a long time since I did that.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:07
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Kaal posted:It's cornering the energy market after converting the planet into an energy economy. It'd be the equivalent of owning all the major resources in the world and controlling every major industry. There's no real way to fight it without becoming an isolationist like North Korea. Yeah, the diplo victory would be fine if you could go rogue. If you had the capability to fight off the rest of the world combined, that should be worthy of being considered game-winning.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:22
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The idea of the world allying against a single civ or maybe two that refuse to respect the current world leader vote is actually totally awesome. It could lock everyone that is in the world congress into perma war with anyone that denies the leadership vote. It could screw you over by isolating you, but If your revolutionary civilization has the grit, it could over come the diplomatic victory of another. Its hard enough that you would rarely want to do it, but possible enough for those determined not to bow to the world order.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:22
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Jastiger posted:The idea of the world allying against a single civ or maybe two that refuse to respect the current world leader vote is actually totally awesome. It could lock everyone that is in the world congress into perma war with anyone that denies the leadership vote. Yeah that does sound pretty awesome. When I go full warmonger I am generally always embargoed in every way possible anyways.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:35
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Wouldn't that just leave everyone refusing to accept the world leader vote? It's not like civs form coalitions and support other civs for world leader, because they lose even if their friend wins. Winning the world leader vote would just mean now everyone but the city-states is at war with you.
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Jul 30, 2013 18:56
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PostNouveau posted:Wouldn't that just leave everyone refusing to accept the world leader vote? It's not like civs form coalitions and support other civs for world leader, because they lose even if their friend wins. Winning the world leader vote would just mean now everyone but the city-states is at war with you. Well they'd have to change how the voting works to accommodate it. It worked in Alpha Centauri because it required a 75% vote and there were no city states, so it really was a coalition of the major faction versus whoever was holding out.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:02
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Yeah the entire problem is that the AI in SMAX was programmed to sort of "throw in the towel" when appropriate and vote you in / not put up a fight, because the game mixed in some narrative elements that went against the ideas we have about Civ these days that the AI should be completely cutthroat at all times. For better or worse, the AI in Civ "knows" it's playing Civ and wants to win, rather than just trying to rule their civilization and doing what's best for them. For all intents and purposes, you can imagine that some Civs did go rogue and fought your coalition at some point after your victory if you want, as that's probably what would happen.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:03
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:For all intents and purposes, you can imagine that some Civs did go rogue and fought your coalition at some point after your victory if you want, as that's probably what would happen. Or you could keep playing after you or someone else wins. I've never gone the "one more turn", does the World Leader gain special World Congress powers after the election?
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Jul 30, 2013 19:07
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Jastiger posted:The idea of the world allying against a single civ or maybe two that refuse to respect the current world leader vote is actually totally awesome. It could lock everyone that is in the world congress into perma war with anyone that denies the leadership vote. This is how it worked in Master of Orion. This is how it should work in Civ V. I actually had games as a kid where someone else was elected 'Master of Orion' and I had to go to perma-war with everyone else on the map simultaneously to preserve my independence. It was radical.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:09
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The reason it doesn't work like that is multiplayer. Those games were designed with multiplayer as an afterthought, if they had it at all (I don't think MoO1 did). It needs to be different from a domination victory, and if diplomacy victory allowed for people to go rogue, no one would accept an MP diplomacy victory and the entire world would go rogue. Basically making diplomacy victories impossible.
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Jul 30, 2013 19:16
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So, the faith window says that once a religion somewhere in the world has been enhanced, you can't found a pantheon if you haven't already. Fair enough. This doesn't seem to apply to the AI, though; I was the only person on my continent with any kind of religion, enhanced it (and some unknown civ had already enhanced theirs), and a few turns later my neighbor England started their own pantheon. Shortly afterwards Korea did the same. Known issue? It's problematic enough to spread my faith to them without having them found religions they aren't supposed to have. vvv ...huh. Okay. Maybe I am dumb. I do recall reading that, but might've misinterpreted things. But even so, what's the point about mentioning the whole 'enhanced religion' thing? Just say 'only X pantheons/religions can be founded'. LaserShark fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 19:47
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LaserShark posted:So, the faith window says that once a religion somewhere in the world has been enhanced, you can't found a pantheon if you haven't already. Fair enough. This doesn't seem to apply to the AI, though; I was the only person on my continent with any kind of religion, enhanced it (and some unknown civ had already enhanced theirs), and a few turns later my neighbor England started their own pantheon. Shortly afterwards Korea did the same. Known issue? It's problematic enough to spread my faith to them without having them found religions they aren't supposed to have. Did you only read like half of the tooltip? It specifically mentions that you can always form a pantheon if there have not been as many pantheons as the maximum number of religions.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:07
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:The reason it doesn't work like that is multiplayer. Those games were designed with multiplayer as an afterthought, if they had it at all (I don't think MoO1 did). It needs to be different from a domination victory, and if diplomacy victory allowed for people to go rogue, no one would accept an MP diplomacy victory and the entire world would go rogue. Basically making diplomacy victories impossible. Recoding that would be incredibly trivial for MP
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Jul 30, 2013 20:12
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So i am trying to play on immortal and about a 170 turns into the game, Songhai just advanced to the industrial era. Does the AI get some sort of bonus/cheat to research?
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Jul 30, 2013 20:17
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LaserShark posted:vvv ...huh. Okay. Maybe I am dumb. I do recall reading that, but might've misinterpreted things. But even so, what's the point about mentioning the whole 'enhanced religion' thing? Just say 'only X pantheons/religions can be founded'. Because only the number of religions is limited from the start while the number of pantheons is only limited after someone enhances their religion. UberJumper posted:So i am trying to play on immortal and about a 170 turns into the game, Songhai just advanced to the industrial era. Does the AI get some sort of bonus/cheat to research? Aside from the minor one from playing on Chieftain and starting with extra technologies, don't think so. They do get large amounts of other bonuses that allow them to build cities and buildings much more quickly though.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:23
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