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Chalk me up as someone who didn't like Persona 3. It was too anime for me after playing DDS and Nocturne. I regret opening my limited edition copy of P3, I could've offloaded it for some money today. 
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Aug 10, 2013 03:33
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GulagDolls posted:I don't know why anyone would like persona 3 or 4. Basically if you like anime, you'll probably like Persona 3/4. When it comes to the actual gameplay is when you start to see some polarizing opinions. I don't think anyone holds Persona 3/4 on a high pedestal when it comes to the core gameplay, although the way the simulation side ties into it to make it more fun is noteworthy. It's one of the cooler improvements in P4G: costumes, new combo attacks as slinks go up, new Personas after December, etc.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:36
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My trusted compatriot recommended Nocturne to me because that apparently has a lot more of the weird occult nature that nobody ingame really seems to think is that strange. I will say that Persona 4 is at least better in that your main character is a goofball instead of a brooding anime teenager
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Aug 10, 2013 03:37
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If you think Persona 3/4 have bad dungeons boy are you in for a treat when you play Nocturne. They're arguably worse. You must not really know Atlus very well but Atlus and bad dungeon design pretty much go hand in hand. It's not even a kept secret, and nobody can seriously white knight it at this point. It's THAT. BAD.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:39
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Rascyc posted:It's the closest thing to an anime simulator that has RPG game play on the side where you can reap your rewards from playing the anime simulator, which doubles as a break from the anime IV drip. It has good anime graphics, with a good anime soundtrack. I dunno all of the stuff/themes that exists in persona 3 or 4 isn't just exclusive to anime. It's more or less stuff that exists in fiction in general. Like there's weirder more off the wall poo poo that exists in comic books.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:40
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GulagDolls posted:What do you like about them. This is a serious question. The dialogue/plots were kinda goofy but I just relaxed and enjoyed the ride, and the character interactions were really charming and likable for me, even the non-party social links. The music's fantastic in both games, and both of them have a heavy atmosphere, just not the usual SMT atmosphere. Persona 4 especially really gets across the feeling of a small town.
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Aug 10, 2013 03:40
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GulagDolls posted:My trusted compatriot recommended Nocturne to me because that apparently has a lot more of the weird occult nature that nobody ingame really seems to think is that strange. Whatever you do, don't play on Hard Mode. That description's not kidding. Also; hold onto that Fairy from the start and don't let her leave at the park. Demon Fusion's fine, so long as you never release it/it's fused descendant from your party. It'll get you something good deep in the Fifth Kalpa of the bonus dungeon. Oh, and when you see a vendor with a Force Magatama - buy it and equip it. (This is all stuff that'll happen in the first hour or two, so no big spoilers here).
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Aug 10, 2013 03:52
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The rpg side of persona games are the weakest parts of the games. It would probably be a better game if it was social links paired up with a puzzle game or a shooter like Catherine or Binary Domain were. But actually good unlike those games. Persona 4 is a dumb anime about chilling out and that is exactly what jrpgs needed after rehashing the same dumb final fantasies and shin megamis over and over.
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Aug 10, 2013 08:29
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Persona 4 is literally Anime Scooby Doo: The RPG and if that doesn't make you wanna play it then you won't like it.
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Aug 10, 2013 08:39
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Rascyc posted:You must not really know Atlus very well but Atlus and bad dungeon design pretty much go hand in hand. It's not even a kept secret, and nobody can seriously white knight it at this point. It's THAT. BAD. Yeah, nobody likes the Etrian Odyssey games. That is why they stopped after the first one. The Persona (at least 3-4) games have pretty boring dungeons but the focus is more on the fights and general resource usage than the dungeon exploration. It's a game largely about magaging your resources. It isn't a particularly hard game but that isn't necessarily the same as being a bad game. It's light, easy to play, and offers a relatively fun and light time and resource management mechanic mixed with a solid combat system. The randomized dungeons mostly exist to feed into the time management mechanics and less in to be explored on their own merits, and in that they work well enough. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 09:07
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GulagDolls posted:I don't know why anyone would like persona 3 or 4. they're some of the most unbearably slow and boring games i've ever encountered with less interesting dungeons than those featured in ascii roguelikes. the combat requires more preparation than most jrpgs but the 'hard' bosses just wind up taking a ridiculously long time to defeat. these segments are separated by discussions with your boring, archetypal anime friends. the snes SMT games had this weird, kind of creepy occult feeling and persona 3 and 4 are missing even that. I just don't get it!! Because you're stupid. I have two degrees.
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Aug 10, 2013 10:00
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I recruited the third character in Ni no Kuni and then just... stopped playing. The fights are dreadfully dull, the story didn't seem to go anywhere, and it's almost impossible to avoid fighting if an enemy has seen you. The AI is beyond stupid and most boss fights are just the MC versus the boss because the AI doesn't seem to want to live. Should I just trade the game in or does it pick up at some point? The towns look great, the music is awesome, and the monsters are cute. It's just the gameplay and story that are extremely dull at this point.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:52
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Renoistic posted:I recruited the third character in Ni no Kuni and then just... stopped playing. The fights are dreadfully dull, the story didn't seem to go anywhere, and it's almost impossible to avoid fighting if an enemy has seen you. The AI is beyond stupid and most boss fights are just the MC versus the boss because the AI doesn't seem to want to live. It doesn't really pick up, no. 
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Aug 10, 2013 11:56
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Renoistic posted:I recruited the third character in Ni no Kuni and then just... stopped playing. The fights are dreadfully dull, the story didn't seem to go anywhere, and it's almost impossible to avoid fighting if an enemy has seen you. The AI is beyond stupid and most boss fights are just the MC versus the boss because the AI doesn't seem to want to live. That's pretty much exactly what happened with me, actually. At this point I really don't see myself getting back to it, because as entertaining as the writing and localization is, the prospect of actually playing the game is kinda disgusting. I'm interested to see what other people have to say.
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Aug 10, 2013 11:57
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Renoistic posted:I recruited the third character in Ni no Kuni and then just... stopped playing. The fights are dreadfully dull, the story didn't seem to go anywhere, and it's almost impossible to avoid fighting if an enemy has seen you. The AI is beyond stupid and most boss fights are just the MC versus the boss because the AI doesn't seem to want to live. Yeah, chiming in to say it won't pick up. It's even more of a slog later on (I dropped down to easy difficulty just to blitz through the last two dungeons) The sad thing is, this game has so much charm, especially in the first 5-10 hours, but it really wastes/pads things out too much in the second half. Also most people will say they tried too hard to make compelling gameplay, which ends up being a clusterfuck of sorts and obviously unfun to play. Ineffiable fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 11:58
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It's good to see I'm not alone in that sentiment. I bugged a Bamco rep for a copy after hearing people rave about it but I couldn't bring myself to play anymore past a few dungeons. Which is such a shame considering the game's whimsical charm.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:00
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I started playing Xillia when it came out on PSN and have already clocked in more hours than on my Ni no Kuni save. It's not half as charming as NnK but the gameplay is much more fun.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:09
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Ibram Gaunt posted:It's good to see I'm not alone in that sentiment. I bugged a Bamco rep for a copy after hearing people rave about it but I couldn't bring myself to play anymore past a few dungeons. Which is such a shame considering the game's whimsical charm. I think one of the big problems is that the art style only can help you so far. They did generic environments all the way up to even the final dungeon but if they got a little more creative, it could help. It really hurts that you have a sewer as a dungeon for your first dungeon. I can see why so many people feel this way about NnK. The first hour is filled with wonder as you slowly discover this world. You have an odd yet charming companion with a Welsh accent. After you hit fairyland (which is like maybe the third town/dungeon in the game, and to me the most unique part of the game) shortly after that you'll slowly realize that this whole world is a generic fantasy world and pretty dull.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:10
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Ineffiable posted:I can see why so many people feel this way about NnK. The first hour is filled with wonder as you slowly discover this world. You have an odd yet charming companion with a Welsh accent. After you hit fairyland (which is like maybe the third town/dungeon in the game, and to me the most unique part of the game) shortly after that you'll slowly realize that this whole world is a generic fantasy world and pretty dull. It doesn't help that this is right about when the gameplay systems really start to fall apart. You get your first actual party member, and you learn how to capture monsters...and it turns out ally AI is trash, the capture mechanic wasn't implemented very well, and getting new monsters up to speed is very, very grindy, which is made worse by the game's combat system (that, by this point, you're probably getting really sick of.)
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Aug 10, 2013 12:13
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King of Solomon posted:It doesn't help that this is right about when the gameplay systems really start to fall apart. You get your first actual party member, and you learn how to capture monsters...and it turns out ally AI is trash, the capture mechanic wasn't implemented very well, and getting new monsters up to speed is very, very grindy, which is made worse by the game's combat system (that, by this point, you're probably getting really sick of.) Don't forget that when you evolve a monster, it starts over as level one again, so you have to fight using your others for about 5-10 battles until its leveled up enough that it can fight without dying. Imagine if Pokemon carried the same mechanic. Yeah anyways, after Fairytown is when the charm of the game can't cover the horrible mechanics anymore.
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Aug 10, 2013 12:22
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Does the story go anywhere? Might it be worth playing through if you put the game on easy?
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Aug 10, 2013 12:30
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:But the dungeons in ASCII roguelikes ARE interesting, they're the entirety of most of those games I love roguelikes as much as anyone, but the dungeons by themselves are only really interesting because of the gameplay mechanics behind them. By themselves they're randomly generated and nothing to write home about. In the context of JRPG mechanics that sort of dungeon is almost aways terrible. Did Persona 4 do the same thing as Persona 3? I hated Persona 3 and never finished it for the same reasons as above (couldn't stand the walls-of-text/anime dating-sim style and the dungeons were boring and uninspired) and kind of wrote off trying Persona 4 for that reason since I heard it was more of the same, but if they toned down the S-Link walls-of-text dating sim bullshit and had more interesting dungeons I might want to give it a try. ed: oh hey how did I miss a whole new page? Genpei Turtle fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 14:54
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The dating sim stuff is still there and the dungeons aren't any more interesting gameplay wise, the aesthetics just change more often. If you loathed P3, P4 won't change your mind.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:30
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Renoistic posted:Does the story go anywhere? Might it be worth playing through if you put the game on easy? There's a bonus "this game was expanded from the original, where Shadar is the final boss" scene where it looks like everything is ending but then oh no plot twist, too.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:40
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah, nobody likes the Etrian Odyssey games. That is why they stopped after the first one. Genpei Turtle posted:I love roguelikes as much as anyone, but the dungeons by themselves are only really interesting because of the gameplay mechanics behind them. By themselves they're randomly generated and nothing to write home about. In the context of JRPG mechanics that sort of dungeon is almost aways terrible.
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Aug 10, 2013 16:44
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GulagDolls posted:What do you like about them. This is a serious question. Well I don't know if I can really explain it well but since you asked seriously I'll try to answer seriously. Persona 3 is the only game I can really think of that not only has a strong central theme in its story but actually manages to marry that theme to its game play as well. The core concept of P3 is "death is inevitable so use your time wisely". That's not the most amazingly original of themes, it's true, but the execution is what's important. The game constantly advances time and you have to decide at each point what the best way to spend it is. You establish early that a boss happens every full moon so you know that you have one month to do what you need to do to fight that boss. And in a larger sense you know the game has a definitive end point by which you need to accomplish everything you want to get done whether that's social links or exploring Tartarus or completing all the side quests. The gameplay reinforces making the most of the limited time you have. The story also focuses on death and its meaning to the various characters. Almost every member of SEES is either dealing with death at the beginning or will at some point. And one of the core ideas that repeats is that they can't do it alone, they need the help and support of the people around them to deal with it. And it's not just the main story but also the social links. Every one of them deals with someone dealing with death sometimes in a literal sense but sometimes in the sense of the death tarot which is a significant change in their lives (a lot of people probably think the tarot motif is just to be cool but they do really utilize the symbolism of it in the story). There's a little girl dealing with the death of her parents marriage, an athlete dealing with the death of his dream to go pro, a couple dealing with the actual death of their child, an artist dealing with his own literal death, and so on. And in each case it reinforces that central theme that how you deal with death is what's important. The little girl realizes that her family is still there even if it's in a different form. The athlete realizes that letting his dream die will help to insure the happiness of his family, which is more important to him. The couple understands that their dead son's life had meaning to it even if it was cut short. And the artist leaves behind something permanent even if he himself is gone. I really hate when people dismiss social links as "dating game bullshit" because they are actually pretty important to the narrative as they shape the main character's (and the players) thinking before the big decision at the end of the game. And speaking of the endings the bad ending is really fantastic as well. The game makes it clear that the world ending isn't the real tragedy. In fact, they don't even bother showing it. The real tragedy is that the characters forget each other and everything they've been through. The bonds they've formed the fights they've been through all are wiped out. It basically makes their lives, and by extension their deaths, meaningless. It drives home the central point that even if the last fight were really impossible it would still be better to fight it and lose rather than basically invalidating their lives. It's a specific rejection of the nihilistic idea that because death is inevitable there's no point in doing anything and you might as well give up and die. I know that's a lot of  about a video game and I don't think it's some kind of literary masterpiece or anything but so few games even try anything so ambitious in their stories, let alone achieve any success at it, that P3 will always stand out for me for that reason. I also think that P4 also has a strong central theme but the gameplay really doesn't support it nearly as well. While waiting for a full moon boss in P3 ratcheted up the tension with things like people with apathy syndrome slowly appearing all around the town and the various npc's starting to freak out, in p4 you generally did the dungeon then sat around waiting for the next part of the plot to happen. It was much more reactive than proactive. So to me p4 has a weaker plot. The characters are much better and fit the setting a lot better, though. P3's characters are its weak point since most of them are just stock anime characters. And the robot and dog don't fit at all.And as for the dungeons it seems to me they were very experimental. Having played all three P3s and P4 you can see the evolution of their ideas and how some things worked and clearly didn't. They obviously expected people to spend a lot more time in Tartarus, for example. The original P3 had basically nothing to do at night except one social link and getting your academics up. They changed things around so there's a lot more ways to occupy your time once it became clear that most players tried to do Tartarus in one or two days a month rather than splitting it up into more trips like they expected. They also seemed to be trying to establish the main character as one member of the group rather than just being hero man and his supporting puppets. The party members not only do their own thing in fights, they also keep gold they find in dungeons if you're split up, and they upgrade their equipment on their own if you let it go too long. It's supposed to make the characters more real and make you feel like you're fighting with comrades rather than how a typical rpg plays out. Like any experiment there are successes and failures, though. Not everything they tried worked out but by P4 I think they had the game play refined quite a bit. Almost everyone likes P4 better from that perspective, at least. And that's why I like P3 and P4, in a nutshell. You were the one who asked 
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Aug 10, 2013 17:35
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GulagDolls posted:What do you like about them. This is a serious question. Persona 3 is one of the only games I've ever played that had a sense of time that makes any sense at all. It's a cliche at this point how in RPGs the end of the world is waiting around for you to do your million sidequests, but in Persona 3 it doesn't. This turns out to have a surprisingly big effect on making choices matter and helping the pacing of the story work. The first time I played Persona 3 about a month before the end I realized I wasn't going to have time to finish everything I wanted to do in the playthrough, I dropped some plans and prioritized others, then a week before the end I gave up and accepted that my character wasn't going to accomplish everything he wanted to do, then chilled out for a week and waited for the end. They took the two disparate sides of the typical RPG (the panic for the world is ending main quest and the relax and explore side quests) and figured out how to make the two work together. I'm not arguing the game has flaws, but I like games that do at least one thing really well over being decent at everything, and the use of time and actually having a theme (as Joshlemagne discussed) were things Persona 3 did really well. Since I enjoyed the combat despite the lousy dungeon design, that meant I really enjoyed the game as a whole.
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Aug 10, 2013 18:53
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Rascyc posted:Don't be an rear end in a top hat and sum up an entire game based on its dungeon design. People play EO for a variety of reasons but the dungeon design in those games is stereotypical dungeon crawl stuff and honestly not that great either. EO4 took it a step backwards. No, I play EO for the dungeon crawling because that is about all there is to it, aside from making your party composition into something interesting. I've found the dungeon crawling and general mechanics in EO more engaging than a fair number of other dungeon crawlers I've played recently. (And I play a lot of dungeon crawlers because I actually enjoy them.) Pointing at the Persona games and going "See, Atlus makes lovely dungeons" is silly because the dungeons in Persona 3/4 are designed to feed into the rest of the mechanics in that game. They probably could have made them more interesting and added more flare to them but it also isn't a case where it is Atlus's norm. Christ, considering the quality of dungeon design in most RPGs lately, I wouldn't put Atlus anywhere near the bottom of the list. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 19:07
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So when people talk about the quality of the dungeons they mean, what, the layout?
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Aug 10, 2013 19:11
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:So when people talk about the quality of the dungeons they mean, what, the layout? ImpAtom posted:Pointing at the Persona games and going "See, Atlus makes lovely dungeons" is silly because the dungeons in Persona 3/4 are designed to feed into the rest of the mechanics in that game.
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Aug 10, 2013 19:17
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:So when people talk about the quality of the dungeons they mean, what, the layout? A good dungeon in an RPG is a mix of a lot of things and depends on the game. The layout is important. A linear dungeon can be boring. A dungeon that is needlessly complex for the purpose of being needlessly complex can be tedious. Good dungeon design hits a balance between the two. A good dungeon is also engaging with plenty of things to explore. In something like Etrian Odyssey or Wizardry-style games, this tends to be a larger and complex dungeon with a lot of minievents, hidden passages, and other gimmicks designed to be explored on multiple quests into the dungeon. You'll often times return to earlier floors or encounter situations you can't handle with your current party layout, or may need to spend time building up resources. In more linear games the dungeons have something else to keep you interested. They can be dungeon gimmicks or simple puzzles that give you the feeling of slowly questing into an area. A dungeon which is just a straightforward monster crawl from beginning to end is pretty boring. (But not inappropriate in games with a heavy emphasis on their combat systems such as the Tales games.) A good dungeon is also well-paced when it comes to items and enemies. If you're doing a linear combat-dungeon then you usually know how to keep things moving forward at a good clip by introducing new enemies or new environments and never sticking in one place for too long. A resource-conservation type of dungeon will tend to have a smaller selection of enemies but you'll be able to recognize exactly what they are and what sort of drain they are on your resources. This allows you to build a team to best compensate for the biggest strengths and/or which enemies to target first. Art design and soundtrack choice are also important, of course. A dungeon with distinctive visuals or a really memorable theme is going to be more interesting to explore than one that doesn't. Rascyc posted:Which is all Etrian Odyssey does with its dungeons. The number of actual special tiles in EO games have gone down significantly since EO1 and EO4 was a step backwards in that it shifted everything to bite sized dungeons which impacts the overall crawl experience. "Bite-sized dungeons" can be as interesting as full-sized dungeons when used properly and EO4 has a mix. Again, it's fine if you don't like EO or only play it for the combat mechanics, but this isn't some universal thing. I love dungeon crawlers and I can't really think of many modern ones being made that are any better than EO when it comes to dungeon layout. This is kind of backhanded praise because a lot of modern design is poo poo, mind you, but still. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 19:22
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It really depresses me that with all of these Wizardry clones, we still haven't gotten one with a dungeon even remotely as awesome as the one from Tale of the Forsaken Land (random floors aside anyway). They've reduced the number of special tiles in EO4 a lot but they've done that with the intention of replacing them with the individual dungeon gimmicks. Second dungeon has the wrap around sections, third was the hot/cold versions with ice slide tiles. Many of the side dungeons had little gimmicks to them too. I think they had the right idea for EO4, but they just made the dungeons way too small and easy. Problem is though, as soon as you even attempt to make a dungeon crawler with actually difficult dungeon layouts, people just bitch and complain endlessly about them.
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Aug 10, 2013 19:29
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Problem is though, as soon as you even attempt to make a dungeon crawler with actually difficult dungeon layouts, people just bitch and complain endlessly about them. This too, unfortunately. There's a certain level of challenge people just don't want. Hidden doors or teleport mazes or danger areas or deadly events tend to make people really upset, let alone the stuff that could get really nasty. We've also seen the death of 'utility' classes in a lot of cases, which helps feed into the combat mob scenario because you're bringing an entire combat party at all times instead of needing guys who can do the stuff besides fighting.
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Aug 10, 2013 19:35
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I'd really love to see some more companies attempt to make Dungeon Master clones instead of Wizardry clones for once. There's a lot of things you can do with making the dungeons themselves interesting by virtue of the fact that they're in real time, and you have fine control over how you interact with things with the mouse cursor (or touch screen in the DS's case). Has anyone ever played one of these games that has Dungeon Master like dungeoning (real time, mouse to interact, enemies on the field, etc.) but has turn based combat once you bump into an enemy group? Tales of the Forsaken Land is very close but obviously doesn't have mouse control to interact.
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Aug 10, 2013 19:49
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ImpAtom posted:I love dungeon crawlers and I can't really think of many modern ones being made that are any better than EO when it comes to dungeon layout. This is kind of backhanded praise because a lot of modern design is poo poo, mind you, but still.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:05
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ImpAtom posted:This too, unfortunately. There's a certain level of challenge people just don't want. Hidden doors or teleport mazes or danger areas or deadly events tend to make people really upset, let alone the stuff that could get really nasty. We've also seen the death of 'utility' classes in a lot of cases, which helps feed into the combat mob scenario because you're bringing an entire combat party at all times instead of needing guys who can do the stuff besides fighting. Worse is when they have them but use them in really stupid ways. Class of Heroes 2 comes to mind with its love of long rear end hallways made of closets with spinners in them. They serve no real purpose since you have an automap button. They just waste time and piss you off. Or the times where it mixes random antimagic tiles in long stretches deep water to gently caress you over for trying to actually use the utility classes.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:08
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dis astranagant posted:Worse is when they have them but use them in really stupid ways. Class of Heroes 2 comes to mind with its love of long rear end hallways made of closets with spinners in them. They serve no real purpose since you have an automap button. They just waste time and piss you off. Or the times where it mixes random antimagic tiles in long stretches deep water to gently caress you over for trying to actually use the utility classes. I hate those. That's not clever. That's just gently caress you, everyone who does not levitate naturally or with equipment falls in the water and drowns, since the levitation spell cuts out as soon as you hit it. It's even worse when it's behind a door and there was not water or antimagic zones on the other side, so you can't even prevent it the first time.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:23
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I never know what to make of Class of Heroes games. I play them quite speedily but it always feels like there's two different teams working on the same game, and things don't quite gel together as you play. I wish they'd bring over more Eliminage games personally. Without the butchered localizations, hoo boy.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:40
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Rascyc posted:I wish they'd bring over more Eliminage games personally. Without the butchered localizations, hoo boy. I dunno, I think I might have actually forgotten about Elminage Original if it hadn't been for that amazing botch-job translation.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:43
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Syrg Sapphire posted:I dunno, I think I might have actually forgotten about Elminage Original if it hadn't been for that amazing botch-job translation. Elminage Original was acceptable (though not great) aside from the translation. It is apparently also by far the weakest of the games. I wouldn't mind them bringing over the rest in the series either.
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Aug 10, 2013 21:35
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