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I'm going to take a guess and say the agent used isn't persistent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ABXNQNqKO0
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Aug 23, 2013 17:38
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Aurubin posted:So what's the potential for any of this to pan out? And if it does, how long before Israel is building settlements in independent Palestine? Those are some huge concessions he's making, and the talks still aren't getting anywhere? If Israel isn't even showing interest at these kinds of conditions, then there's no chance for peace. Abbas is running out of concessions to give; if he bends over backward to please Israel any harder, his back will break. He's between a rock and a hard place; if he concedes too much he's in danger of losing support from the population, but if he continues to be unable to reach a peace deal despite making unprecedented concessions like this, then Palestinians will cease to respect the path of nonviolently negotiating for peace. Blackbird Fly posted:What could get Hamas to go along? Is anyone interested in getting Hamas to go along? They don't even get invited to peace talks, as I'm pretty sure neither Israel nor the US regard them as a legitimate government. Gaza is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about in the I/P peace process, because none of the parties involved are interested in involving Hamas in any way.
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Aug 23, 2013 17:56
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Brown Moses posted:I'm going to take a guess and say the agent used isn't persistent Forgive my ignorance, but could you explain to me what is happening here?
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Aug 23, 2013 18:07
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Acid Haze posted:Forgive my ignorance, but could you explain to me what is happening here? Some dumb shits are parading a rocket that was formerly full of liquid sarin through their street and dancing around it, as they attempt to ensure anything left inside will be released by repeatedly tilting it back and forth  I will never cease to be amazed with the lack of care people give to un-safed ordnance. I think my reaction would be something more along the lines of "let's find some plastic sheeting, wrap it up, dig a hole, and bury it as gently as humanly possible". Maybe they could drop it or hit it with a hammer a couple times just to be sure?
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Aug 23, 2013 18:15
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Brown Moses posted:I'm going to take a guess and say the agent used isn't persistent Either that, or a whole bunch of people are going to start dropping like flies. Reportedly, some first responders are coming down with similar symptoms.
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Aug 23, 2013 18:20
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Acid Haze posted:Forgive my ignorance, but could you explain to me what is happening here? A protest. It's a show of high spirits/morale. Just saying 'We aren't afraid.' They're also chanting, transliterated, 'Arabs, fear Allah', the latter is a saying that means Allah is watching. In this case it means Arabs, do something about this. Also never touch any ordinance, not even with a 30 foot pole. Jesus.
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Aug 23, 2013 18:21
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Grayly Squirrel posted:Either that, or a whole bunch of people are going to start dropping like flies. I actually got to speak directly with a doctor who treated the victims on Skype today, he's told me the following - He said that there were many victims who only complained of sore eyes and headaches, and didn't come to the hospital. - People are arriving in the hospital 24 hours after the event complaining about blurred vision, headaches, and "hallucinations". The hallucinations were described as people thinking their family were trying to kill them, or cars were about to swerve off the road to hit them. I asked him if he thought it could be PTSD, he said no, but I think he might be wrong. - He said first responders and nurses were particularly effected while treating patients, some passing out. - He said he treated patients from the August 5th attack, where three of those mystery munitions that turned up in the recent attack were supposedly used. He said the symptoms were the same, although not as widespread or severe.
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Aug 23, 2013 18:27
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I think part of carrying the expended ordinance may have to do with a lack of training and education on the fact that detonated chemical weapons will still carry lethal residue. Nonetheless, it should not be buried or discarded, but rather stored somewhere that is at least somewhat safe. They need all the evidence they can get for when the UN inspectors arrive sometime in the next decade.Rigged Death Trap posted:A protest. It's a show of high spirits/morale. Thank you.
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Aug 23, 2013 18:33
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Brown Moses posted:I actually got to speak directly with a doctor who treated the victims on Skype today, he's told me the following Yikes. How widespread is the knowledge of proper procedure for first responders when it comes to chemical weapons? Obviously things like respirators and the like are probably hard to come by. But even something as crude as covering exposed skin, properly disposing of victims and responders clothing, and hosing down victims and responders with water could prevent a lot of cross contamination. I know this thread put together some how to videos when it came to UXO a while back. Perhaps we should do something for how to respond to a chemical attack? The thought that first responders might be literally injuring or even killing themselves is particularly heartbreaking. 
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Aug 23, 2013 18:39
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Brown Moses posted:I actually got to speak directly with a doctor who treated the victims on Skype today, he's told me the following Does anyone have a good guess as to what kind of chemical it was?
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Aug 23, 2013 18:40
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Zeroisanumber posted:Does anyone have a good guess as to what kind of chemical it was? One of the CW experts I've spoken to is convinced it's sarin, while another thinks it isn't, and the other two aren't sure. Elsewhere, here's a long video about the opposition biggest DIY gun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24EC1HeeADA
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Aug 23, 2013 18:51
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Brown Moses posted:One of the CW experts I've spoken to is convinced it's sarin, while another thinks it isn't, and the other two aren't sure. Not to armchair CW expert, but I would bet that it's Tabun over Sarin since the effects are more in line with Tabun (the nervousness / restlessness is right in line with the second symptom), and that agent has the added effect of being much easier to synthase. Oh, and physical contact while still just as bad as inhalation is much slower to show symptoms which explains why they were probably able to handle the ordinance without immediate effect and why some people were slow to show up for treatment.
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Aug 23, 2013 19:07
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Also never touch any ordinance, not even with a 30 foot pole. Jesus. This is good advice in principle, but if no one picks it up then it'll just end up sitting in the street for a month as traffic goes by. It's not like there's roving bands of EOD squads.
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Aug 23, 2013 19:33
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I don't think any population would do much better in handling that much UXO. poo poo just look at how many hands and feet Americans lose every July 4th.
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Aug 23, 2013 19:45
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Kaal posted:This is good advice in principle, but if no one picks it up then it'll just end up sitting in the street for a month as traffic goes by. It's not like there's roving bands of EOD squads. Bit of an exaggeration on my part, but still, I wouldn't do the removal with bare hands.
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Aug 23, 2013 19:45
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Looks like Al Jazeera America isn't just watered-down CNN-style American news now - it's currently doing an hour-long special on how Israeli checkpoints and other movement restrictions affect Palestinians in the West Bank.
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Aug 23, 2013 20:10
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A Winner is Jew posted:Not to armchair CW expert, but I would bet that it's Tabun over Sarin since the effects are more in line with Tabun (the nervousness / restlessness is right in line with the second symptom), and that agent has the added effect of being much easier to synthase. Oh, and physical contact while still just as bad as inhalation is much slower to show symptoms which explains why they were probably able to handle the ordinance without immediate effect and why some people were slow to show up for treatment. One of the earlier (I want to say one of the first 10-15) videos in Brown Moses' playlist of footage from the attack had a kid with his pupils constricted down to pinpricks and basically non-reactive to a pen light. Given, shining a light in one's face makes the pupil contract, but closing the eye and moving the light away will allow it to dilate again, which was clearly not happening. The video is specifically filming the victim's eyes because of that, if I recall. E: Brown Moses posted:One of the CW experts I've spoken to is convinced it's sarin, while another thinks it isn't, and the other two aren't sure.  someone min-maxed the killdozer for firepower over armor.
FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Aug 23, 2013 |
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Aug 23, 2013 20:15
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Jesus, I thought it was going to be some big muzzle loaded mortar. Then the rocket came out and
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Aug 23, 2013 20:33
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The Entire Universe posted:One of the earlier (I want to say one of the first 10-15) videos in Brown Moses' playlist of footage from the attack had a kid with his pupils constricted down to pinpricks and basically non-reactive to a pen light. Given, shining a light in one's face makes the pupil contract, but closing the eye and moving the light away will allow it to dilate again, which was clearly not happening. The video is specifically filming the victim's eyes because of that, if I recall. Constricted pupils are symptoms of all the G type nerve agents though so that being one of the symptoms really doesn't narrow anything down apart from it being most likely one of the G type nerve agents. The feelings of paranoia that people exposed to that gas is what makes me think it's tabun over any of the others though since anxiety is one of it's main symptoms, a symptom that isn't shared with other G type nerve agents. Like I said though, I'm not anything more than an internet/history geek on this so I'm not saying it's tabun for sure, but I would be willing to bet money that it is the agent being used here after BM posted a list of symptoms a doctor treating those exposed to this have reported.
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Aug 23, 2013 20:39
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Why does it have to be just one? Isn't Mount Qassyoom known for having a large stockpile of chemical weapons? Are Tabun and Sarin loaded onto a warhead that differently that you couldn't use the same warheads for delivery of them both? Saddam and his Iraqi Ba'ath Party dropped Tabun, Sarin, Mustard Gas, and VX all on the same town (Halabja).
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Aug 23, 2013 20:55
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Here's a DIY rifle from Syria that fires 23mm rounds, as used by the ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvQ7pwYWo-Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDplH7AlpGc
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Aug 23, 2013 21:59
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Brown Moses posted:Here's a DIY rifle from Syria that fires 23mm rounds, as used by the ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun. Thats pretty ingenious. I like the shiny muzzle brake and the spring on the barrel.
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Aug 23, 2013 22:05
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A Winner is Jew posted:Constricted pupils are symptoms of all the G type nerve agents though so that being one of the symptoms really doesn't narrow anything down apart from it being most likely one of the G type nerve agents. The feelings of paranoia that people exposed to that gas is what makes me think it's tabun over any of the others though since anxiety is one of it's main symptoms, a symptom that isn't shared with other G type nerve agents. Like I said though, I'm not anything more than an internet/history geek on this so I'm not saying it's tabun for sure, but I would be willing to bet money that it is the agent being used here after BM posted a list of symptoms a doctor treating those exposed to this have reported. Also: "Although pure tabun is clear, less-pure tabun may be brown." That could explain the dark tint / stains on the rockets, or possibly it's been discolored by exposure to a corrosive agent (like tabun)
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Aug 23, 2013 22:35
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Brown Moses posted:Here's a DIY rifle from Syria that fires 23mm rounds, as used by the ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun. Is the trigger and grip on the bottom a piece taken from another gun? It seems redundant, unless they were part of something cobbled from several weapons.
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Aug 23, 2013 22:38
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A Winner is Jew posted:Constricted pupils are symptoms of all the G type nerve agents though so that being one of the symptoms really doesn't narrow anything down apart from it being most likely one of the G type nerve agents. The feelings of paranoia that people exposed to that gas is what makes me think it's tabun over any of the others though since anxiety is one of it's main symptoms, a symptom that isn't shared with other G type nerve agents. Like I said though, I'm not anything more than an internet/history geek on this so I'm not saying it's tabun for sure, but I would be willing to bet money that it is the agent being used here after BM posted a list of symptoms a doctor treating those exposed to this have reported. A couple videos showed an area being hosed off (like, with a firehose, not just sprayed down like someone's muddy beagle) which may explain delayed symptoms in the medical personnel. Water would kick some of it up, I guess, but you'd probably have a lower chance of absorbing a fatal dose through the skin.
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Aug 23, 2013 22:47
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I'm doing a very detailed examination of the munitions linked to CW attacks in Syria, and one interesting thing I've noted is many seem numbered. The red numbers you see are from munitions linked to two CW attacks in Damascus, on August 5th and August 21st. The other munition is from Homs, the only one ever recorded there, and has it's number in black, and is a totally different sequence. What's interesting is I believe the Homs munition had a high explosive payload, and I suspect the numbering is different for that reason, and probably explains the yellow stripe too. Just thought it was an interesting little detail. 
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Aug 23, 2013 22:57
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Weren't the symptoms of those exposed to the gas in Homs a bit different from what we've seen this month though? Might explain the difference between the two colors as well... but like you said the fact that the Homs munition was also a high explosive device could account for that also.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:03
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A Winner is Jew posted:Weren't the symptoms of those exposed to the gas in Homs a bit different from what we've seen this month though? Might explain the difference between the two colors as well... but like you said the fact that the Homs munition was also a high explosive device could account for that also. The one in Homs wasn't even described as chemical, the local groups claimed they were explosive. I believe two payloads are being used with the munition, one chemical, one explosive. Another piece of the puzzle are these items recovered from two attacks, related to the munitions  I don't know what this is, but when piecing together how these things work it's another clue. What's significant is two have now been recorded, meaning it's not just some random piece of junk recovered at the scene of an attack.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:05
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Ahh, then that would indeed explain the difference between the numbering colors used. Also, are those last two pictures things that was at both Homs and the recent chemical attacks, or have those just shown up recently?
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Aug 23, 2013 23:17
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Welp "@CharlieKayeCBS BREAKING. @CBSNews has learned that the Pentagon is making the initial preparations for a Cruise missile attack on Syrian government forces" https://twitter.com/CharlieKayeCBS/status/371038205295861760
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Aug 23, 2013 23:41
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Emanuel Collective posted:Welp loving hell. We're really doing it.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:45
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Possibly an impact fuze for a modified version of a 107-mm artillery rocket known to be used there by Shabiha at the very least. http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/syrian-forces-improvised-arms-desperate-measures-or-deliberate-aid/?_r=0
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Aug 23, 2013 23:46
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Emanuel Collective posted:Welp Welp, so much for getting those leaks under control.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:48
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Watch Bush start a war. Kaye followed that tweet with quote:BREAKING. @CBSDavidMartin: US naval commander orders warships to move closer to Syria to be ready for possible Cruise missile strike. Which reads a little bit less imminent to me.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:49
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Is that just them drawing up a plan for if they actually did it or are they getting the missiles in range? I mean I would figure they would have already had a plan for any form of potential action in Syria. There we go I guess.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:49
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Obama can't really avoid looking like an impotent fool if he does nothing. He'll take a page from Clinton's book and order strikes.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:53
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I read an article on either al aribiya or Al Jazeera about some supposed defector from the Syrian chemical weapons program. The guy was alleging that Syria may mix chemical weapons with CS/CN tear gas to mix up the symptoms to make it more difficult to determine what was used. I have no idea if the guy was credible or not, but it seems like something the Syrians could easily do.
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Aug 23, 2013 23:54
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They would have already had some kind of action plan on the books; it's likely they're just refreshing it and shuffling around assets and accounting for whats changed since the last time it was drawn up. Maybe hoping that works as a deterrent for Assad (it won't). Still, if we stop at remote cruise strikes then we can hardly do more harm than good...right?
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Aug 23, 2013 23:57
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Misandrist Duck posted:Watch Bush start a war. Well it could just be a "NATO launching cruise missiles at Iraq in the 90s" style strike, one that could be pulled off in a relatively short amount of time
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Aug 23, 2013 23:58
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Here is a New York Times article from yesterday mentioning cruise missiles as a possible response.quote:Among the options discussed at the White House, officials said, was a cruise missile strike, which would probably involve Tomahawks launched from a ship in the Mediterranean Sea, where the United States has two destroyers deployed.
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Aug 24, 2013 00:01
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