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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I doubt the US would be bothered, they keep pretending that they don't know Saudi Arabia is Al Qaeda: The Country. The vast majority of the funding that Jihadis are receiving comes from Saudi Arabia. Saudi individuals maybe but certainly not the state. And even then, SAMA has pretty much made everybody's hell with it's financial controls aimed at stopping Qaeda funding.
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Oct 22, 2013 20:57
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This is something fairly interesting- the Aviationist has run a story and accompanying photo depicting a MiG-29 with unguided rocket pods above Damascus. I thought that the Syrian government had been keeping the MiG-29s mothballed in lieu of -21s and L-39s for ground attack missions in order to keep those in reserve for use if there was an international military intervention into Syria. This either means that Assad is confident enough that particular danger has passed, or the readiness of the L-39s and MiG-21s and -23s has degraded to the point where he has to use the more advanced craft. Muffiner, BM- any insights?
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Oct 22, 2013 22:13
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Well realistically Assad might be running out of things he can't make at home such as military aircraft. I imagine the length of the conflict plus every improving opposition arms quality has sizeable attrition over time to the more expensive military vehicles. Does Syria even have local production for the more advanced systems such as tanks/military aircraft or do they pretty much depend on Russia?
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Oct 22, 2013 22:17
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suboptimal posted:This is something fairly interesting- the Aviationist has run a story and accompanying photo depicting a MiG-29 with unguided rocket pods above Damascus. It could be either of those scenarios. Assad might have kept the Mig29s in the hangars in case of a foreign intervention (although I doubt they would be able to do much besides take off and get shot down) but the other planes that have been used to death so far like Mig 21, 23, L39, SU24, 22 etc might be getting really worn out and maintenance is generally not something Arab air forces are known for. So maybe all that's left is the mig29s. But I don't think those are particularly well suited for ground attack? Another thing I haven't been seeing many videos of lately are the Hinds. Maybe they are getting worn out too?
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Oct 23, 2013 03:10
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It was suggested that the 29s need a shorter runway, and he may be losing access to long enough runways due to shelling/general use.
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Oct 23, 2013 03:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:Saudi Arabia is making noises about moving away from the US politically. They are apparently unhappy that we didn't bomb Syria, are engaging Iran, and are ignoring the Palestinians. America is also going to surpass Saudi Arabia in oil production by 2017 and what demand can't be met domestically can be met by countries much closer than Arabia.
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Oct 23, 2013 04:56
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Charliegrs posted:So maybe all that's left is the mig29s. But I don't think those are particularly well suited for ground attack? Another thing I haven't been seeing many videos of lately are the Hinds. Maybe they are getting worn out too? the mig29 is a multi-role fighter similar to the F15, it's more the matter of sending in more advanced airplanes into the meatgrinder is a interesting development. Plus using dumb rockets also means tossing in a plane with zero armor into what is essentially a close range air support role, sort of like throwing a BMW into a demolition derby match.
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Oct 23, 2013 05:03
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etalian posted:Plus using dumb rockets also means tossing in a plane with zero armor into what is essentially a close range air support role, sort of like throwing a BMW into a demolition derby match.
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Oct 23, 2013 05:12
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So how are left groups doing in Tunisia now?
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Oct 23, 2013 09:36
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suboptimal posted:This is something fairly interesting- the Aviationist has run a story and accompanying photo depicting a MiG-29 with unguided rocket pods above Damascus. I can't really say, but I'd suspect that the wear and tear on the other aircraft they've been using has taken it's toll. Some of those things have been in use since the 1960s and 70s, which does point to good maintenance. Another explanation would be that they're more afraid of the rebels' AA capabilities, but unguided rocket pods don't really lend much credibility to that explanation. EDIT: since nobody is talking about this here, there is a lot of noise coming from Lebanon about an upcoming offensive in the Kalamoon region. The Kalamoon is a very mountainous area directly north of Damascus and the Ghouta, all the way up to Homs. Notable locations in Kalamoon would include Maloula (the mountain village with a Christian majority that was all over the news), Nassriyeh and Qutaifeh where all the SCUD missiles are, and numerous military bases that have all sorts of things in them, like unused tanks and modern AA and anti-tank missiles that get looted ever so often by rebels every now and then. Anti-regime sources are split on the subject. Some of them think this is happening, others don't. What I can say about the region is that during the French occupation it caused them quite a bit of trouble. Mountains everywhere, with the main road from Damascus to all the north running through it with many easy to ambush locations. The rebel groups in the area are (in my opinion) mostly not as professional as those in say, Damascus but they do have a lot of arms from looted storehouses and easy access to Irsal, a smuggling town just across the border in Lebanon, and they have shown some sense of cohesion and organizational ability. The whole area has been relatively unchanged for the last year or so. Most of the towns are under FSA or non-regime control, with few exceptions. The regime maintains a presence throughout most of the region in a string of military bases that like to shoot a few shells at the towns every day. There was an attempt by JAN to take over one of these bases in the spring, but nothing came out of that. A map of control from December or January would still be accurate to a large degree. Muffiner fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 10:54
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Charliegrs posted:Another thing I haven't been seeing many videos of lately are the Hinds. Maybe they are getting worn out too? Maybe a mix of attrition and caution? Assuming pre-war estimates are right, Syria had somewhere in the ballpark of 180 serviceable military helicopters, including between 40 and 50 Hinds. Keep in mind that as of about a year ago they only had supplies and maintenance abilities to keep about half their fleet operational at any given time. They've probably lost about 40 helicopters since the start of the conflict, and if that was spread roughly equally (which it may not be, granted) across their operational fleet then you'd see numbers decline on all types, with a loss of maybe a third of pre-war Hinds. I'm sure with increased rebel AA capabilities the Hinds are probably getting shelved and kept more in reserve.
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Oct 23, 2013 13:07
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Young Freud posted:Then why are Russia and China permanent members? Russia's armed forces and nuclear arsenal is skeleton of it's Soviet-era strength This is false. United States (active/total): 2150/7700 Russia (active/total): 1800/8500 Source: god drat wiki pedia Russia has pretty much always tried to maintain nuclear deterrence parity with United States. Russian strategic missile troops have consistently been relatively well-funded and their equipment has been kept up to date. They have been renewing their army both material- and doctrine-wise for last about 6 years. Their current army combat troops stands about 400 000 strong (or more, or less, who knows), air force stands around ~200 000, etc. They are one of the largest and well-armed forces in the world, with nuclear stockpile that may well be larger than United State's. Calling them a skeleton of their Soviet-era strength means pretty much nothing.
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Oct 23, 2013 14:25
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El Perkele posted:This is false. Well pretty much any armed force that has ever existed in (relative) peactime is a skeleton compared to the Soviet armed forces at the height of the Brezhnev era which if I remember right was something completely insane like 5,000,000 men, 50-100,000 tanks, somewhat the same number of combat aircraft (might have been more) and more than 20,000 strategic nuclear missiles, not counting tactical nuclear weapons. Also the entire army was mechanized and kept at full strength through universal two-year conscription (I think there were two or three drafts a year, and basic training was something like a few months or more, followed by specialist training if necessary, so 2/3 to 3/4 of the military should be combat ready at any time). With the economic collapse at the end of the Soviet Union and the complete meltdown after it was gone keeping such a force in the field would be completely impossible for anyone, and there aren't any other military forces of that scale around anyway (Though the US comes really close or surpasses it). Even during Gorbachev, who made alot of cuts to the mitiary and wanted to shift focus over to the civilian sector, shifting the production of many design bureaus and industrial sectors over to civilian rather than military manufacturing and development, about 25% of Soviet GDP was spent on defense and sectors related to it. So again, saying that Russia's military is a skeleton of the Soviet miltary doesn't really tell you that much. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 14:50
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Randarkman posted:Well pretty much any armed force that has ever existed in (relative) peactime is a skeleton compared to the Soviet armed forces at the height of the Brezhnev era which if I remember right was something completely insane like 5,000,000 men, 50-100,000 tanks, somewhat the same number of combat aircraft (might have been more) and more than 20,000 strategic nuclear missiles, not counting tactical nuclear weapons. Also the entire army was mechanized and kept at full strength through universal two-year conscription (I think there were two or three drafts a year, and basic training was something like a few months or more, followed by specialist training if necessary, so 2/3 to 3/4 of the military should be combat ready at any time). With the economic collapse at the end of the Soviet Union and the complete meltdown after it was gone keeping such a force in the field would be completely impossible for anyone, and there aren't any other military forces of that scale around anyway (Though the US comes really close or surpasses it). Exactly. There is a very common tendency among Western populace and even politicians to either dismiss Russia as somewhat a post-Soviet Collapse -era weak man, just waiting to become a liberal democracy, or a ruthless, authoritarian red menace, ready to steamroll Fulda Gap at the drop of a hat. Neither of these are accurate portrayals of Russia, but they still pop up all too often in these kinds of discussions. Assumptions about Russian complete demise, them being militarily weaker than for example Germany or France, are a miscalculation of Russian power projection and their geopolitical goals - and also sometimes just blatant untruths. These kinds of things have a cumulative effect: earlier, before the Syrian civil war had cemented into it's current stalemate, there were suggestions - even in this thread! - among the lines of "forcing the Russia to do something", which I assume follows from not completely understanding just what Russia of 2013 is and what they are trying to accomplish. Speaking belittlingy of Russia and China, not even bothering to check the facts and stating something like "Russia does not earn a place in Security Council" is geopolitically naive and counterproductive to honest analysis of the situation.
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Oct 23, 2013 15:26
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I doubt the US would be bothered, they keep pretending that they don't know Saudi Arabia is Al Qaeda: The Country. The vast majority of the funding that Jihadis are receiving comes from Saudi Arabia. Man, I would love it if we could shift away from the Saudis and towards Iran. Iran really should be our natural ally in the region, far more so than the KSA. Iran with its tremendously young and relatively progressive (compared to all other gulf states) population (a population that can't get enough of American culture) just seems like such a good fit. The slight thawing of our relationship with Iran that's happening right now is fantastic, and I really hope that it isn't crushed by greed (Saudi) or crass identity politics (Israel).
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Oct 23, 2013 16:26
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El Perkele posted:Exactly. There is a very common tendency among Western populace and even politicians to either dismiss Russia as somewhat a post-Soviet Collapse -era weak man, just waiting to become a liberal democracy, or a ruthless, authoritarian red menace, ready to steamroll Fulda Gap at the drop of a hat. Neither of these are accurate portrayals of Russia, but they still pop up all too often in these kinds of discussions. Assumptions about Russian complete demise, them being militarily weaker than for example Germany or France, are a miscalculation of Russian power projection and their geopolitical goals - and also sometimes just blatant untruths. These kinds of things have a cumulative effect: earlier, before the Syrian civil war had cemented into it's current stalemate, there were suggestions - even in this thread! - among the lines of "forcing the Russia to do something", which I assume follows from not completely understanding just what Russia of 2013 is and what they are trying to accomplish. Speaking belittlingy of Russia and China, not even bothering to check the facts and stating something like "Russia does not earn a place in Security Council" is geopolitically naive and counterproductive to honest analysis of the situation. Yes and no, Russia still has a ton of nuclear weapons...no doubt, but it's army is still a heavily conscripted force, that to be frank only is supplied with men who have no way to escape it, they are more penal battalions for poor Russian men than anything else. In addition, Russia's stock pile of conventional weapons has obvious deteriorated over the years, and while it is vast in numbers, in functional quality it is heavily mixed, this includes obviously its navy. While the military budget has increased in recent years to start buying high priced subs and air superiority fighters, they don't come cheap and the funding usually comes from basic services, education and health care for the populace (as per the 2014 federal Russian budget). Obviously pushing around Russia is nonsense, and Russia's nuclear weapons alone gives it functional autonomy but there needs to be a little realism here as well. If anything I think the easiest comparison for Russia is the late Weimar Republic under Von Papen (assuming his tenure was a lot longer). Russia isn't going to become a red menace or a liberal democracy. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 17:36
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So today's the anniversary of the Marine Barracks bombing in Lebanon. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing
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Oct 23, 2013 17:49
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El Perkele posted:Exactly. There is a very common tendency among Western populace and even politicians to either dismiss Russia as somewhat a post-Soviet Collapse -era weak man, just waiting to become a liberal democracy, or a ruthless, authoritarian red menace, ready to steamroll Fulda Gap at the drop of a hat. Neither of these are accurate portrayals of Russia, but they still pop up all too often in these kinds of discussions. Assumptions about Russian complete demise, them being militarily weaker than for example Germany or France, are a miscalculation of Russian power projection and their geopolitical goals - and also sometimes just blatant untruths. These kinds of things have a cumulative effect: earlier, before the Syrian civil war had cemented into it's current stalemate, there were suggestions - even in this thread! - among the lines of "forcing the Russia to do something", which I assume follows from not completely understanding just what Russia of 2013 is and what they are trying to accomplish. Speaking belittlingy of Russia and China, not even bothering to check the facts and stating something like "Russia does not earn a place in Security Council" is geopolitically naive and counterproductive to honest analysis of the situation. According to the Russian themselves a fifth of their defense budget vanishes every year: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/24/us-russia-defence-idUSTRE74N1YX20110524 The bigger problem is that most young Russians want to leave the country and they can't afford to retain talent. This is a big problem because when the USSR collapsed they lost most of the factories in Eastern Europe that produced vital parts for their armed forces. Their tank arm has persevered well because most of those were produced in Russia, but their Navy is in rough shape. Compare France's ability to deploy overseas to Russia's. France has 4 well maintained aircraft carrying vessels including the Charles de Gaulle which did well in the Libyan operation. Here's the flagship of the Russian Navy, which people were making a big deal about when it sailed close to Syria. WW3!!!!!  Look closely: http://englishrussia.com/2012/03/30/ill-fame-of-the-aircraft-cruiser-admiral-kuznetsov/ Even if it gets upgraded the crew problems are going to take generations to address.
Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 17:59
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More on the video showing Hizbollah executing wounded Syrians, seems there's more evidence it's genuine, and who was involved http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-hizballah-execution-video.html
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Oct 23, 2013 18:26
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Still it doesn't really matter if Russia's military is or isn't a shambles regarding its permanent seat on the security council. The eligibility to occupy that seat has nothing to do with any measuring of miltiary, economic or cultural strength it is simply because these were the five major victorious powers of world war II (or their recognized successors). It isn't really any more deep than that. The permanent seats may possibly be expanded to include other nations, but if you try to reduce the number of permanent seats I'd say you are risking the continued existence of the UN as an internationally recgonized organization, especially as regards the US, France, Russia and China (somehow I have a feeling this is less true for the UK, but that's a guess)
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Oct 23, 2013 18:30
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Randarkman posted:Still it doesn't really matter if Russia's military is or isn't a shambles regarding its permanent seat on the security council. The eligibility to occupy that seat has nothing to do with any measuring of miltiary, economic or cultural strength it is simply because these were the five major victorious powers of world war II (or their recognized successors). It isn't really any more deep than that. The permanent seats may possibly be expanded to include other nations, but if you try to reduce the number of permanent seats I'd say you are risking the continued existence of the UN as an internationally recgonized organization, especially as regards the US, France, Russia and China (somehow I have a feeling this is less true for the UK, but that's a guess) It is hard to say if the security council is a motivation or not, but obviously those countries have a motivation to have some type of force projection... and maybe even a nuclear stockpile. The UK is an interesting case, there has been a movement to end its program but has so far hasn't achieved success. The victorious nations of the ww2 world war are still important powers to today, so we have to see. Also, as many problems the Russian military has, I don't think it has the weakest military on the security council (although it is an argument I am not interested in) but yeah, the Russian military has real problems and in some ways they are a extension of the fast issues with Russia today.
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Oct 23, 2013 18:43
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Here's the jihadi version of "Duck Dynasty": quote:A toddler in a plaid shirt launches into a tantrum as a slightly older girl refuses him a sip from her juice box.
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Oct 23, 2013 19:11
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Maybe i'm going too south for this thread, but in Mozambique government forces have made a raid against RENAMO (historical anti-communist guerrilla turned democratic in 1992 with the Rome treaty) headquarters in Santungira with heavy machinery and artillery fire, in what appears to have been an attempt at capturing Afonso Dhlakama, the leader of RENAMO, who escaped. RENAMO has since declared that this action by FRELIMO nulified the Rome treaty, which means Mozambique might be on the brink of another civil war. Not that Mozambique was ever freed from arbitrary political violence. This escalation in the conflict is assumed to have come after discussions about the share of the wealth coming from the new explorations of natural gas turned sour, with both parties wanting more of the pie (the general population will obviously not have a sniff of said wealth). It's a shame the way Mozambique and Angola are going. But looking at who hosed them for centuries, they didn't fall very far from the imperialist tree.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:49
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How are u posted:Man, I would love it if we could shift away from the Saudis and towards Iran. Iran really should be our natural ally in the region, far more so than the KSA. Iran with its tremendously young and relatively progressive (compared to all other gulf states) population (a population that can't get enough of American culture) just seems like such a good fit. The slight thawing of our relationship with Iran that's happening right now is fantastic, and I really hope that it isn't crushed by greed (Saudi) or crass identity politics (Israel). While Israeli and Saudi influence are definitely impediments to the US improving relations with Iran I think the biggest obstacle are the mullahs in charge of the Iranian government. If the population of Iran is ever able to break free from the oppressive dictatorship then I think Iran will become a very good friend of the US.
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Oct 24, 2013 02:45
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Remember the hostages.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:23
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Charliegrs posted:If the population of Iran is ever able to break free from the oppressive dictatorship then I think Iran will become a very good friend of the US. Things look awful stagnant there at the moment. On the other hand, Rouhani apparently has been given the green light to speak to the US in negotiations, which is great. I was worried the old guard conservatives would have too much influence for any President to overcome their stubbornness, but there's been a huge change since Ahmadinejad left. That's one front I'm actually optimistic about. I doubt any type of uprising is really in the cards there.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:37
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Baloogan posted:Remember the hostages. It continues to blow my mind that despite all the sanctions, and decommissioning of the Tomcat here in the US, Iran manages to keep their aging warbirds flying. I've got a military encyclopedia set from the 1970s I bought off a dying bookstore ages ago which talks about the F-14 as "one of the world's most sophisticated and formidable combat aircraft," and here we are in 2013 and a significantly-less technologically developed nation can keep them operational despite being cut off from their original point of development and source of replacement parts. Incredible. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 03:44
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F-14s are still hella cool. I wish we still had a squadron for traditional purposes. Its so iconic; and it hurts to think of them flying for the bad guys.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:56
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 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2277412/Fake-stealth-plane-Irans-Photoshopped-fighter-jet-spotted-air.html Lest we forget the time when Iran tried to pass a matchbox jet off as the real thing.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:56
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The New Yorker posted:Since the war, a good many Arabs have been killed or maimed because, in spite of repeated warnings, printed and oral, they have persisted in collecting live shells left lying around all over the countryside by Rommel’s Afrika Korps and Montgomery’s Eighth Army. The natives build fires under the shells to make them explode, and after the explosion, if they are still alive, they sell the casings in the scrap-iron market. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1951/11/10/1951_11_10_137_TNY_CARDS_000232676?currentPage=all BM you might find this one amusing. I think this one takes 'playing with UXO' all the way up to 'intentionally detonating UXO,' but obviously it's got a long and storied tradition. From a 1950 something issue.
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Oct 24, 2013 04:23
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Miltank posted:
Did they? Because at the time all the sources said it was a mockup and they (Iran news sources) showed them flying the remote controlled model. Western firms do photoshoped "In Flight" concept pictures all the time. Of course, not that I don't trust the integrity of the Daily Mail... Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 05:42
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I'm back from the Google Ideas' Conflict in the Connected World summit. There were some very interesting presentations and debates there which will hopefully all appear online, and I did my short presentation As it was the 2nd presentation I've done post school it was the most terrifying thing I've ever done, but it went very well. Once the videos start coming online, I'll start linking to the ones most relevant to this thread.
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Oct 24, 2013 10:47
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Brown Moses posted:I'm back from the Google Ideas' Conflict in the Connected World summit. There were some very interesting presentations and debates there which will hopefully all appear online, and I did my short presentation Congrats man. I'll definitely look forward to watching it. And again thanks so much for being so involved with this thread. I would be very ignorant without it.
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Oct 24, 2013 12:26
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They've started uploading the videos now here. Here's a short piece on social media and connectivity in the Libyan conflict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sWYFAGxWp4
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Oct 24, 2013 12:37
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It continues to blow my mind that despite all the sanctions, and decommissioning of the Tomcat here in the US, Iran manages to keep their aging warbirds flying. I've got a military encyclopedia set from the 1970s I bought off a dying bookstore ages ago which talks about the F-14 as "one of the world's most sophisticated and formidable combat aircraft," and here we are in 2013 and a significantly-less technologically developed nation can keep them operational despite being cut off from their original point of development and source of replacement parts. Incredible. They used to get new American spare parts up until a few years ago. Now who knows how operational they *really* are?
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Oct 24, 2013 16:49
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I've posted about that in another thread, but pictures seems to indicate "very". Fun fact: Israel have helped them do just that, and to modify I-HAWKs to be carried by the Tomcats(!). That blog got a pretty nice thread/post on the Syrian Civil war with lots of pictures and videos, dating all shot down aircraft and spottings. Interesting note: In another development MiG (Российская самолетостроительная корпорация МиГ) formerly called Mikoyan-and-Gurevich Design Bureau, has announced it will deliver possibly up to 24 new MiG-29 M/M2 (Микоян и Гуревич МиГ-29) fighters to Syria for a contact was reportedly signed back in 2007. Could Russia still be delivering such systems? Could explain why MiG-29s are suddenly popping up. Another interesting thing is that the blog lists the Sortie count for the various air-frames, and it appears to have been increasing, so one things for certain, the civil war (and Russian support) is doing wonders for the pilots flight hours 
Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 17:26
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Here's the video of my appearance at Google Idea's Conflict in a Connected World summit talking about my work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbWhcWizSFY They've just added another 20 videos or so on their YouTube playlist. I'll try to pick out some of the more relevant ones later.
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Oct 24, 2013 17:54
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Some choice videos then. This one was the introduction of [url=http://www.google.com/ideas/projects/uproxy/]uProxy[/ur], you can skip to 14:00m if you want to seem it being demonstrated, which is the best way to understand how simple it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGOXMRJWSeg Already I've spoken to a number of people (in particular journalists who work abroad a lot) who are excited about the potential for this, the big question seems to be about how secure the service will be. This was the speech about the new DDoS visualisation and DDoS protection system they are introducing, aimed for human rights groups, and other, who are vulnerable to DDoS attacks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfaAqdSHb8c Here's a long discussion about "Electronic Armies", in particular the Syrian Electrionic Army https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVYL58g1EIk Peter Fein from Telecomix, who helped various Arab Spring opposition groups, gives a short and amusing talk on their work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7GhNK6K8fQ He also took part in the discussion "Altruism and Nihilism on the Net", which talks a lot about anonymous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14SXwdS66iY Speaking of Anonymous, moot of 4Chan fame took part in the discussion "Online Security Conundrum: Identity vs. Anonymity" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DCkVxHZWDY
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Oct 24, 2013 21:05
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Interesting developments in Libya according to the link below. Some Eastern Libyans are making a drive for an autonomous government. http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Officials+Libyan+force+colonel+gunned+down+eastern+city/9076580/story.html
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Oct 24, 2013 22:58
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New Division posted:Interesting developments in Libya according to the link below. Some Eastern Libyans are making a drive for an autonomous government. http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Officials+Libyan+force+colonel+gunned+down+eastern+city/9076580/story.html Hahahaha oh god the notracists are going to be coming out in full loving force aren't they. Under the guise of egalitarian leftism no less. 
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Oct 24, 2013 23:08
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