|
Oneiros posted:Are you seriously arguing that because people can use cheats to get whatever they want that the devs should balance the actual game against that? Why not? That's what the developers of Dungeon Defenders did and look how well balanced Nightmare difficulty and the DLC turned out. Both are loving garbage and you should never touch either if you like Dungeon Defenders. This is a dumb argument.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 00:28 |
|
|
Shukaro posted:We don't have this cheat argument in the Minecraft threads anymore for good reason, let's not have it here unless you have something genuinely interesting and well-thought out to say about it. My interesting thing to say about the whole debate boils down to the fact that we have not, as of yet, seen anything substantial enough to warrant a death penalty, because they literally have not put it in the game yet. Pixel costs seem high, but I remember getting over 10k pixels hanging around and clearing a ~35 TL planet, which is supposed to be about a third of the way through the game. Going to specifically farm monsters and/or ore to shove into the refinery would have gotten me thousands upon thousands more. And this is the roughest state the game will ever be. If you don't like death penalties, then mod it out for right now, but for heaven's sake, play the game as-is, and hope for what will be, rather than thinking that everything in the game is set in loving stone.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
Umberger posted:If you're in an area where dying is prohibitively impacting your income, that probably means the area is too difficult for you/your equipment. That's why the penalty exists: so you can't just corpse drag in the high level areas to take advantage of their higher ore counts. Armed with Steel weapons and Snow Suit, I still find that Threat 6 Desert world I left off on much more forgiving and less dangerous than my starting world. I can oneshot the wildlife on both now but the T6 Desert doesn't have moments where swarms of fire and needle spewing enemies will rush me. Section Z fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
There is a purity to struggle as it makes the achievement of building a blinged-out wizard tower so much more satisfying.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
MoonwalkInvincible posted:My problem with this reasoning is that if you really care about your pixel count (as in, you're building your way up to something which costs a lot and not just farting around and only looking at it occasionally), when are you ever going to die twice to make that investment worthwhile? Once you're well past the earliest parts of the early game and the starting planet monsters are trivial, that is. The Pixel bank is balanced around the new combat mechanics, and I would assume that pixels are probably going to be better rewarded for risk in the future. Why grind away 10,000 pixels in 1 Pixel drops when I can fight something that drops 100 Pixels but has a chance of killing me? Every few hundred I might want to store them for safe keeping, sure I will have to maybe kill ten or so more in the end to make up for it, but it would be better than dying, reviving at my ship, and dying soon again. I mean, I've literally died within 20 seconds of teleporting down to a planet's surface because there is a mob right next to me and its dealt a good chunk of damage before I've could retaliate. --- This whole argument is kind of stupid since I see this mechanic in a lot of games and this is the first time I've seen people actually complain about it. It is doubly stupid since you can edit this feature out in a min or two. It also reminds me of the "Why not just play in creative mode" debates you hear in MC modding threads and dear lord are those loving stupid. 
Enzer fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:25
|
|
|
Section Z posted:I don't mind higher level areas being more dangerous, it's the fact that the luck of the draw can make lower areas, or even your starting ones ball bustingly inhospitable and unrewarding that is my issue with "Boohoo, don't try to punch above your weight idiot death penalties are there to punish your hubris" mindsets. That's a fair enough point. Keep in mind though: the armor/weapon system is being revamped soon and it's definitely possible that those situations will be a lot less common or possibly even eliminated entirely. Not everything will be perfect in the beta, especially this early. A lot of the game is not even close to balanced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:27
|
|
|
Zurai posted:What? So winning a hard game isn't a challenge because failing to win the game doesn't matter? What the gently caress kind of logic are you using? I wouldn't call it a "hard game" in this case, it's more of a series of isolated skill checks within the broader scope of a game which is by its nature fairly leisurely and non-threatening. What's the point of health if there's no deterrent from running out of it? You can just lay a trail of corpses into content that would normally be far outside your place in the game because death doesn't matter, or in a system where death is actively undesirable you can attempt the same things but more cautiously or creatively to make off with premature rewards. I don't think this game is the sort of thing that needs to be incredibly harsh- and the death penalty is relatively tame compared to what other games stick you with- but asking why you need a death penalty at all is asking why you need to die at all if the condition is little more than a momentary time-out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
So I've been working on something today.. Right now it's a lovely crop from some plans I found online, I just wanted to get the shipblocks.png done ASAP so testing it would be easier. I'll post some more shots once I have some graphics actually done.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:36
|
|
|
Finally caught the drill name, it was Diamond Drill. Wonder if the drills are an outright replacement of the pick then or if they are just go up a similar progression (seems odd unless they are "like a pick but act differently" instead of being a better pick).. Of course it could all just be placeholders.
Enzer fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
Switched.on posted:So I've been working on something today.. Is that from SpaceBucks? At least something good could come from that game...
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
Can you read codices?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:42
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Can you read codices?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:44
|
|
|
Yes? Just use them like everything else and they show up in your main codex.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:44
|
|
|
Infinity Gaia posted:Yes? Just use them like everything else and they show up in your main codex.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:44
|
|
|
Above Our Own posted:Whats a main codex The book on the right side of your screen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:45
|
|
|
Enzer posted:The Pixel bank is balanced around the new combat mechanics, and I would assume that pixels are probably going to be better rewarded for risk in the future. Why grind away 10,000 pixels in 1 Pixel drops when I can fight something that drops 100 Pixels but has a chance of killing me? Every few hundred I might want to store them for safe keeping, sure I will have to maybe kill ten or so more in the end to make up for it, but it would be better than dying, reviving at my ship, and dying soon again. I mean, I've literally died within 20 seconds of teleporting down to a planet's surface because there is a mob right next to me and its dealt a good chunk of damage before I've could retaliate. Eh, at this point it becomes a numbers argument, which is probably ultimately pointless given the early beta state that we're in, but the actual numbers you're saying just don't hold true to how the game is right now. On a TL1 starting planet, the weakest you can find, the monsters tend to drop somewhere in the area of 10-50 pixels per kill, usually leaning towards 10 (and occasionally dropping nothing). On a TL5 or 8 or some other higher-threat Alpha planet, they lean more towards 40 or 50, to the point that you commonly see 100+ pixels going to your inventory after killing a single group. Around the time I beat the UFO boss, the TL5 planet was completely trivial to me and my biggest risk of death was jumping off a hill that's slightly too high, and I still hadn't seen any crafting requirement even close to 10k; they were usually around 1k or less even for that tier. In the event that I did need to build up a lot of pixels (which never really happened, usually I could craft with whatever I had sitting around when I returned to my ship), I could easily have traveled to that TL5 planet and run continuously forward while swinging my sword and gathered it pretty quickly but boringly, as opposed to going somewhere high-risk and getting slightly more per kill but losing a huge portion of my earnings to either death or banking. But yeah, you're right that it's pretty dumb to get annoyed with since all the specific numbers are almost definitely subject to change. Right now, though, banking is prohibitive enough to be completely out of the question, and it seems like those number changes would need to be very significant to actually change that, though if they manage to change combat to the point that no planets are ever completely trivial, I could see that working too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:45
|
|
|
Reiley posted:I wouldn't call it a "hard game" in this case, it's more of a series of isolated skill checks within the broader scope of a game which is by its nature fairly leisurely and non-threatening. What's the point of health if there's no deterrent from running out of it? You can just lay a trail of corpses into content that would normally be far outside your place in the game because death doesn't matter, or in a system where death is actively undesirable you can attempt the same things but more cautiously or creatively to make off with premature rewards. You claimed that, if there is no price for failure, it cannot be a challenge. So, I ask you, is winning Battletoads on a single life not a challenge? There's no price for failure (other than wasted time, which you've already dismissed). I would certainly call it a challenge, since I've never been able to do it. I'm asking what your logic is in dismissing that as a challenge, because I cannot fathom it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:46
|
|
|
Umberger posted:That's a fair enough point. Keep in mind though: the armor/weapon system is being revamped soon and it's definitely possible that those situations will be a lot less common or possibly even eliminated entirely. Not everything will be perfect in the beta, especially this early. A lot of the game is not even close to balanced.  ", it wasn't frustrating enough to make me stop wanting to try or love this beta.I will admit the Snow gear the next day, and the fact the snow world my starter orbits around was much more forgiving and let me grab chunks of coal and Iron to get a leg up really helped though. I did get some sense of accomplishment going back home with a tiny 2 Iron Bar dagger and 10 bar shield I made all by myself (I got more coal and iron in a few screenlengths on T1 Iceworld than my entire struggle across and down the forest starter) and getting some REVENGE  But Baby's first world should not be what you have to strive to grind up to conquer.As much as I'm in this for the fun, I'm not completely against a death penalty. But I would also prefer if the bankable options down the line get more forgiving. EDIT: Hell, one possible tweak would to make larger bars take less of a loss. 1k bar? that will be 40% you big baby. 10k bar? 10% loss Mr high roller. Section Z fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:51
|
|
|
Looks like angle and type of sword swing is now tied into how your mouse is positioned around your character, this will make fighting things with melee a lot smoother.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:51
|
|
|
Zurai posted:You claimed that, if there is no price for failure, it cannot be a challenge. So, I ask you, is winning Battletoads on a single life not a challenge? There's no price for failure (other than wasted time, which you've already dismissed). I would certainly call it a challenge, since I've never been able to do it. I'm asking what your logic is in dismissing that as a challenge, because I cannot fathom it. Battletoads is a whole entire game consisting of multiple trials whose failure has a set of escalating costs (losing health, then a life and then game over), beating the whole thing without dying isn't at all parallel to what I'm talking about. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:51
|
|
|
Omni just showed some testing of aimable melee in stream, fyi
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
On the live-code-stream, are we getting swords that are aimable more than just left and right? If they have the directional property they are! Edit: Beaten, that's what I get for explaining it to my buddy first. CapnBry fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
CapnBry posted:On the live-code-stream, are we getting swords that are aimable more than just left and right? If they have the directional property they are! Here's hoping that spears get the directional property.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:53
|
|
|
And he's testing a spear right now. Kinda buggy
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:55
|
|
|
I can't believe you all are watching a stream of some guy developing the game this thread is about. I can't believe I'm watching a stream of some guy developing the game this thread is about. What am I doing with my life.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:57
|
|
|
Reiley posted:Battletoads is a whole entire game consisting of multiple trials whose failure has a set of escalating costs (losing health, then a life and then game over), beating the whole thing without dying isn't at all parallel to what I'm talking about. Again, you said that something cannot be a challenge if there is not price for failure, and dismissed time as a price. There is no price for failing at anything in any video game (except esports and the like) except time spent. Please explain your logic for your assertion.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 04:58
|
|
|
Zurai posted:Again, you said that something cannot be a challenge if there is not price for failure. There is no price for failing at anything in any video game (except esports and the like) except time spent. Please explain your logic for your assertion. Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you genuinely arguing that it is impossible for games to implement cost or penalty mechanics because they are games?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:00
|
|
|
What button do you press to examine things and get those little text popups people are having? VV Thanks for replies. LibbyM fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:01
|
|
|
LibbyM posted:What button do you press to examine things and get those little text popups people are having? N is the hotkey, you can also press the magnifying glass on the right of the screen
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:02
|
|
|
LibbyM posted:What button do you press to examine things and get those little text popups people are having? "N" or the Magnifying Glass off to the side if you can't handle shortcuts for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:02
|
|
|
LibbyM posted:What button do you press to examine things and get those little text popups people are having? There's a magnifying glass on the right you click that and then what you want to inspect.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:03
|
|
|
Eegah posted:I can't believe you all are watching a stream of some guy developing the game this thread is about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:03
|
|
|
Angry Diplomat posted:Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you genuinely arguing that it is impossible for games to implement cost or penalty mechanics because they are games? Where do you get that out of my questions? Maybe it's you who is obtuse? My question remains unanswered: how is something which is difficult to accomplish but has no price for failure not a challenge? I'm not claiming that it's impossible to implement cost or penalties in games, I have no earthly idea where you got that idea from. I'm saying that challenges do not require costs or penalties. You can have something be challenging without it being punitive. Masochists aren't the only people who can accomplish challenges.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:09
|
|
|
e: Possibly fake.
Umberger fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:11
|
|
|
I'm pretty impressed with the level of response from the devs to the early player's concerns. Gives me hope for the final product.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:12
|
|
|
Personally I'd just ask what value he puts on his time, then tell him to paint my house for a shiny nickel because that's clearly a fair exchange. edit: me am post slow Denzine fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:13
|
|
|
Umberger posted:
I can't hold onto my butt much longer, been begging for this update since forever! Can't wait to see how smoothly the beginning goes from last time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:13
|
|
[05:08] <Tiyuri> Alright everyone, thank you for your patience. The update is being uploaded to steam right now. It should be ready for download within 30 minutes. Remember to send us feedback on reddit.com/starbound or at our forums at community.playstarbound.com
|
dumpster17 posted:Is that from SpaceBucks? At least something good could come from that game...
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:14
|
|
|
Umberger posted:
Was anyone actually in IRC to witness this? It's just copy-pasted from some Reddit thread that suddenly popped up while everyone in the stream chat was saying the build is being uploaded, and then the developer said it isn't. He said he would let us know the moment it's happening.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 00:28 |
|
|
Shabadu posted:I'm pretty impressed with the level of response from the devs to the early player's concerns. Gives me hope for the final product. I'm not surprised, though. They've impressed me in the past.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 05:15
|
|
